Lejoon: I tried your list but failed to repeat your success. Ended up 0-3 in first league and 1-3 in second one. Here are some thoughts regarding the build (I don't expect you to agree with me, but it might be relevant to others :))
Too much value
While this sounds like a good thing, I felt as I always just played Wall of Omens to find a Bugler that found me another Wall that found me a Felidar to blink Bugler to find a BoP. While drawing cards is good, it didn't really pressure my opponent and with 12 0-power creatures in the deck all they had to do was to hold up removal for the Felidar Guardian when I tried to go off. The "Plan B" of our deck wasn't good enough, I guess is a way to summarize it.
Hard to go off in one turn
To play one combo piece one turn and the second one the turn after is often too slow and vulnerable. With no Lotus Cobra it's a lot harder to combo off in the same turn which many times is the way we win/surprises the opponent.
With that said I still feel as there might be something to Militar Bugler, and I will continue to try him out in but in the Lotus Cobra/Rallier shell.
Hi everybody, I've done a little Bugler testing of my own, and here are some first impressions:
I've been positively surprised with Bugler's miss rate. I haven't had complete blanks or hit useless dorks all that often. It helps that the 2/3 vigilance body is rather good with Noble Hierarch's Exalted.
Now that UW control typically runs 2-3 Terminus, Voice has become worse and a card like Bugler feels like the right tool to fix that problem. (Apparently that's what all the Humans players at the recent PT concluded as well, since Xathrid Necromancer was largely replaced by Bugler in that deck.)
However, as nal2 described above, you spin your wheels a lot when you chain Bugler, Wall, Felidar and Oath. Which can be totally amazing if you're facing UW, but not so much against Storm or KCI.
What plays into the previous problem is the fact that while you dig through your deck pretty well, Bugler's cmc3 means you don't often cast a second relevant spell in the same turn. We have plenty of 3-drops already, which sometimes limits us to only one spell a turn even when we have 4-5 mana available.
Bugler fits quite comfortably into a shell with 2-3 Reflector Mages and Kiki-Jiki, since those are some of the most high-impact 2-power creatures. However, it seems really hard to make the mana work, especially when we also have to consider (our own) Moon effects, Field of Ruin and potential removal for our dorks.
In a match vs Burn I noticed how a bunch of 2/3s (Bugler and Reflector Mage) are great against their creatures. It's probably the only matchup where that is true, but I was really surprised how well Bugler performed there.
I'm a huge fan of Gaddock Teeg as a sideboard card, and adding Bugler to the deck makes it even easier to find Teeg quickly. Obviously, the same is true for other silverbullet creatures.
All in all, I do see potential in Bugler, and I'm defintely going to test it more. However, I have a PPTQ coming up this sunday, and I don't feel comfortable with the Bugler list yet. Most likely I will run my Abzan Evolution list that splashes for Saheeli.
Bugler fits quite comfortably into a shell with 2-3 Reflector Mages and Kiki-Jiki, since those are some of the most high-impact 2-power creatures. However, it seems really hard to make the mana work, especially when we also have to consider (our own) Moon effects, Field of Ruin and potential removal for our dorks.
Agreed. Per Siefer & Lejoon's posts, Blood Moon is one the core motivators of this build, directing us away from the landfall-hungry Cobra/Rallier engine. However, without Cobra's double rainbow filtering off fetches, Rallier's ability to rez Dorks back to the field, and now with added mainboard Moons lining up 1UW / 1GG / 1UR / 2RRR can feel tenuous unless everything goes perfectly.
Too much value
While this sounds like a good thing, I felt as I always just played Wall of Omens to find a Bugler that found me another Wall that found me a Felidar to blink Bugler to find a BoP. While drawing cards is good, it didn't really pressure my opponent and with 12 0-power creatures in the deck all they had to do was to hold up removal for the Felidar Guardian when I tried to go off. The "Plan B" of our deck wasn't good enough, I guess is a way to summarize it.
Hard to go off in one turn
To play one combo piece one turn and the second one the turn after is often too slow and vulnerable. With no Lotus Cobra it's a lot harder to combo off in the same turn which many times is the way we win/surprises the opponent.
To what extent is the issue that Bugler doesn't hit enough powered creatures to make the beats plan effective vs. the fact that it doesn't cantrip into the Copy half of the combo? We could certainly fill in the beats plan a little bit with something like:
Alternatively, if the deeper issue is that Bugler can't draw into the Copy half of the combo (or, worse, digs us past the Copy half) then there's not much we can do.
Why not play Devoted Company if you want to play a maindeck like that? It's much better at the fair game and assembles the combo quite quick.
Yeah that’s a fair critique.
If recording the league takes too much time I’m sure everyone would still appreciate a very brief write up of your matches. At a minimum if everyone just included their individual match scores as part of reporting the League score it would be really helpful.
@Lejoon: That's just the thing - without the pressure they don't need to take a turn off to sweep. Once they do, we untap and combo kill them when they don't have counter mana. And after sideboard with Gaddock Teeg we can actually win with the straight up creature plan when they can't play sweepers.
This is my experience at least. And I don't see how playing 12 0-power creatures and Buglers gives the deck a better matchups against UW/Jeskai. Having 3-4 Voice of Resurgance mainboard should help as well.
@Lejoon: I think we're talking in circles You say we're playing a combo deck - yes, I agree, that's why I like Lotus Cobra - we can combo on turn three with only that card in play. Heck, I have even won on turn 2 with Lotus Cobra. It's extremely explosive as you have said yourself.
We're playing a combo deck - but our combo is extremely fragile because it dies to any removal including Bolt. That's why we need to punish the opponent when he/she interferes with our combo - that's why we play Voice of Resurgence. If we don't have any other game plan than to rely on assembling the combo I think we're playing a very optimistic game plan.
Why are we playing the deck? I have always been a fan of creature combo decks that can win even without the combo, such as Project X back in the day and even Melira Company before it became too boring. Interacting with my graveyard is also something I very much like since it gives me more options, "makes my hand larger".
All that said - watching you play the deck or getting a 5-0 league with it is something I'm very much interested in. Because right now you don't have me sold.
EDIT: Attaching my latest list feat Bugler list that I'm testing at the moment, currently 2-03-04-0 5-0(!) in league.
A couple of broad thoughts to help guide this conversation:
Consider what our creatures are being asked to do. First, I think both version of the deck currently being discussed are combo decks at their core. Even when I was playing Cobra/Voice/Rallier, I was winning more than 50% of my games with a combo kill. That said, when we do need to win fairly, we're largely doing so off the back of our top tier access to hate. My current Dork/Wall/Moon build is running twelve 0-power guys, but I still manage to kill "fairly" in about 40% of my wins. This has a lot to do with the current makeup of the format - if I have a Stony Silence and Blood Moon in play, Tron is going to have a bad time regardless of what I'm attacking them with.
We certainly don't have flawless mana, but there's a reason I happily jammed 4 Blood Moons a couple of weeks ago. Our mana is pretty darn good, and because we're mostly G/W, we can often get away with fetching for basics after our initial land get. A fetch and a dork lets us cast everything in the deck not named Kiki-Jiki, and we never have to cast a Moon if we think it will hurt us more than them.
This is a skill-intensive deck, and it doesn't offer much margin for error on even seemingly innocuous things like fetching lands. As an example, I lost a game in the cash tournament due to not aggressively hunting for red sources. It would have been painful, but I didn't play to my hand, and was unable to hard cast a Kiki to win an otherwise unwinnable game. It's one of the things I love about this deck, but every damn decision feels like life or death, and the lines are often dangerous and complex.
I'm still going back and forth on Bugler. I love the immediate gratification it provides, I like the body, and appreciate that it plays nicely with all of our blink effects. The thing is, missing on Evolution and Saheeli drives me nuts, and sometimes I want a bit more oomph out of that slot. I may just play it safe and run Trackers again.
A less broad thought: Stonehorn Dignitary is totally nuts right now, and I highly recommend a copy in your 75, regardless of build.
As an aside, Stonehorn Dignitary is totally nuts right now, and I highly recommend a copy in your 75, regardless of build. Half the meta
When you say Stonehorn is totally nuts right now do you mean in practice or still theory with respect to the meta? Really curious to hear about games with this guy. Couldn't find a copy at my local shop, unfortunately.
@Shelldell, I was inspired by GerryT's recent write-up on Saheeli Evo. He sold me on Dignitary in the current meta, and past experience with it as a sometimes bullet in Pod has me hyped to give it a go here. Apologies if I'm banging that drum a bit too loudly.
I'm still interested in hearing about how Bridge has performed for you. Also, does Missionary come in for any matchups beyond Burn?
Bridge has been great although it might be worse now when I play Bugler (harder to empty my hand). One thing I really like about Bridge is that it actually benefits you to mulligan into one. I won vs Boggles on a mulligan to 3 with land, land, Bridge I feel the Humans matchup is where Bridge shines the most but if you lose game 1 it will def be harder to benefit from it in a deciding game 3 (then they'll bring in Reclamation Sage etc). It's also great against Hollow One.
The Missionary is only for Burn yes, and it's probably weaker in this list when I only run 1 Rallier (although 3 Militia Bugler that finds it).
I'm still interested in hearing about how Bridge has performed for you. Also, does Missionary come in for any matchups beyond Burn?
Bridge has been great although it might be worse now when I play Bugler (harder to empty my hand). One thing I really like about Bridge is that it actually benefits you to mulligan into one. I won vs Boggles on a mulligan to 3 with land, land, Bridge I feel the Humans matchup is where Bridge shines the most but if you lose game 1 it will def be harder to benefit from it in a deciding game 3 (then they'll bring in Reclamation Sage etc). It's also great against Hollow One.
The Missionary is only for Burn yes, and it's probably weaker in this list when I only run 1 Rallier (although 3 Militia Bugler that finds it).
Why bridge over worship?
Mainly because of Collective Brutality, but also because it can come down one turn earlier (important especially vs Kitesail Freebooter), get brought back with Sun Titan and still lets you use fetch lands. It also lets you play Gaddock Teeg together with it without getting it awkwardly stuck in hand (vs Bant Spirits for example).
EDIT: Although getting stuck with cards in hand because of Reflector Mage and Meddling Mage is very much a concern sometimes, just lost a game because of it vs Humans.
I was expecting a metagame where Blood Moon wouldn't be at its best, but graveyard hate would matter. Also, I wanted to be prepared for Bogles and Infect since those are typically represented at that shop.
My metagame prediction was actually quite good since there were 5x Hollow One, 2x BridgeVine, 2x Storm and 2x Bogles in the 32 player tournament. However, I faced none of those in 5 rounds, instead I got paired against 3 of the 4 big mana decks in the room (3x Scapeshift, 1x Tron). I beat Tron and one Scapeshift player, losing to the other Scapeshift deck. I also won vs Jeskai Control, and lost a really close match playing for top8 against Affinity. While my list is certainly not built to combo every game, a surprising 7 of 8 game wins came via combo, and even the non-combo kill involved a crucial Saheeli -2.
Hi! I'm new to the deck, and took it out to a local tournament for the first time today. I went 3-0-1 and got second place. Here's a report and some thoughts and questions on the deck from me!
Notes on the list: The Elvish Mystic should be a Noble Hierarch and the two Sunpetal Grove should be Horizon Canopy. Shrug.
Round 1: Heroic
My opponent was playing an old Heroic deck from Theros standard (I think).
Game 1: I get off to a slower start, but then explode onto the board with a Cobra, 2 Rallier, and Evolution a Voice into the P&K. The flooded board is too much for him to swing through, and I cruise to a win.
Game 2: I T3 combo him out with the classic T1 Birds, T2 Saheeli, T3 Felidar.
Not much to say about this match. I was simply playing a card-for-card more powerful deck than my opponent.
1-0
Round 2: Mono Green Devotion
Game 1: My opponent opens with 2 Arbor Elves and a Wistful Selkie, but can't find a Nykthos this game (I assume he's on Devotion due to the Selkie). I Reflector Mage his Selkie, and my opponent doesn't find a third land until a few turns too late. P&K comes out and cleans up their elves, and I get there with the beatdown.
Game 2: My opponent starts ramps out a T3 Garruk Wildspeaker, but I have T2 Cobra, T3 Rallier, Saheeli -2 to make a hasty Rallier to deal with it. I don't draw the evolution until the next turn, and combo off for the win.
Being able to keep up with the opposing ramp in game two felt strong.
2-0
Round 3: Grixis Shadow
Game 1: I play two Voice out early, and I'm able to fill the board enough to get through their first Gurmag Angler. By the turn my opponent has a threatening Death's Shadow, I can swing with the clean-up crew (an Elemental, 2 Cobra, and a Rallier) to finish the game.
Game 2: We both mull to 6 and keep awkward but playable 6-ers. My opponent casts Inquisition T1 and sees 2 Reflector Mage and some misc stuff. They take a Voice instead, and my Mages keep them off their Angler while I'm able to swing enough damage for the win.
Notably, neither of my hands opened myself up to Stubborn Denial, which was convenient. I was worried about Evolution in this matchup for that reason, but I never saw it. Reflector Mage was a powerhouse.
3-0
Round 4: Jeskai Control
Game 1: I make a mistake and keep a hand with no action until T3. My opponent has answers to my initial threats, including my Tireless Tracker and two Saheeli. They are able to take over the game with Snapcaster and Cryptic and eventually close it out. During the mid-game I had a Rallier rot in hand because I wasn't able to trigger Revolt.
Game 2: We both mulligan to 6, and I trade off my threat for their removal until we're both at one card in hand. With only 4 lands, my opponent taps his blue sources low for a Search for Azcanta, as I rip my Sun Titan off my deck. Safely around counterspells, I slam the Titan, get back a Saheeli to minus and copy Titan, to get back more value. My opponent draws path the following turn, but I eventually win the game off of the huge board swing.
Game 3: After two longer games, we're left with only 3 minutes to play out the last game. Unfortunately, neither my 7 or 6 have a quick combo kill, but my mulligan to 6 has a Bird, Felidar, and 2 Oath of Nissa, so I keep. We unsurprisingly go to turns. On turn 2 of time, I have Saheeli and Felidar in hand, and my only line to win is to Saheeli on T2 and Felidar T4 for the win. I go for it, and he has a Logic Knot for Saheeli so we end up drawing.
We decide to keep playing out the game for fun. I topdecked Thragtusk, and between the Thragtusk and a blink from Felidar, I'm able to win a race against the opposing Clique and Snapcasters.
3-0-1 (4-0?)
I'm pretty happy with my result as a first outing with the deck. Some thoughts on the my list:
This deck is a ton of fun to play! It's explosive, and has a lot of options.
It could have been the matchups I faced, but Shalai wasn't amazing today. Which maybe means it should be a sideboard card with something more broadly applicable in the main as a 4-drop.
Likewise, Kiki-Jiki felt underwhelming in this list. I think its a tough ask to fetch around to hard-cast it, and I don't know that there's spots I'd want to Evolution for it. It seems like I've been mostly using Evolution to grab Felidar, rather than Kiki. Maybe more copies of Felidar would change that. Kiki seems correct to me, I'm just not excited to play it.
I liked Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the main, but again double-red can a tough ask to fetch around.
Sun Titan was insanely strong the one time I got to cast it. Perhaps I should move it to the main? I'm not sure if I like it better there or as a sideboard card for grindy matchups. It's probably a meta call.
It could have been the matchups I faced, but Shalai wasn't amazing today. Which maybe means it should be a sideboard card with something more broadly applicable in the main as a 4-drop.
Likewise, Kiki-Jiki felt underwhelming in this list. I think its a tough ask to fetch around to hard-cast it, and I don't know that there's spots I'd want to Evolution for it. It seems like I've been mostly using Evolution to grab Felidar, rather than Kiki. Maybe more copies of Felidar would change that. Kiki seems correct to me, I'm just not excited to play it.
I liked Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the main, but again double-red can a tough ask to fetch around.
Sun Titan was insanely strong the one time I got to cast it. Perhaps I should move it to the main? I'm not sure if I like it better there or as a sideboard card for grindy matchups. It's probably a meta call.
I've had the same impression with respect to Shalai, she isn't for every matchup, so depending on the meta she should probably be in the sideboard.
Kiki-Jiki is obviously the card you want to Evo for once you have Felidar already. Since your list only has 2 of them, Kiki isn't great. You might want to either go up to 4 Felidar or cut Kiki. Also, I've had similar problems with casting Kiki, triple red is really difficult sometimes. I can recommend a basic Mountain in addition to the two red shocklands, which allows you to fetch a red source without taking 2 damage and also get red mana from Path to Exile / Field of Ruin.
Sun Titan is definitely amazing if you get to resolve it in the slower matchups. However, 6 mana is a lot, so the opponent often has the time to Thoughtseize or counter it, and it's pretty bad in matchups where grinding value doesn't matter, like Storm or KCI. It's also often out of reach for Eldritch Evolution, 5-drops are much easier to get.
Over the last couple of months I've been playing the cobra/rallier version but have recently dropped the cobras to go to just a rallier version. My big issue, at least with the version I was playing, was that the deck attempted to have a beatdown plan and the cobras, although providing some explosiveness, really didn't facilitate that plan.
I'm reluctant to move to an all-in combo version having toyed with other combo decks like the turbo vizier decks, and I see others tinkering with that approach and will leave it to them to crack that nut.
Although I'm a bit down on cobras, I do think there is room to better exploit the Ralliers by providing better 2 cmc threats that must be answered by the opponent. In my current configuration, the 2 cmc slot includes a play set of voices, 2 tarmogoyfs, and a scooze.
The other issue I had was how little I found myself searching for the silver bullet cards that are typically in the main deck. Instead of silver bullets, my configuration has card filtering (adventurous impulses) and interaction (path to exiles). The exception here is that i still include shalai as she completely dominates in the matchups where she is needed and, at a bare minimum, protects the combo plan. The card filtering solves a major issue I had in prior versions where I would either draw the wrong half of the deck or be forced to mulligan with poor opening draws.
After five or some matchups, I've been pleasantly surprised with the goyfs and the scoozes in the current mtgo/graveyard heavy meta and the deck overall feels very consistent. I could easily see adjusting the creature distribution to include additional goyfs.
I'll run through some leagues tonight and provide feedback but would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this approach, as it seems that goyfs have been tried earlier but people have seemingly moved away from them.
Update Edit: 5-0 a friendly league. Beat storm (2-1), hollow one (2-1), affinity (2-1), tron (2-1), counters company (2-1). So far, not missing the cobra or the main deck silver bullets. Very impressed with the adventurous impulses in digging for pressure pieces or needed land.
How did the Reveillark feel? Did you find yourself going for it with Evo, or was is mostly something you wanted to draw? The Kira looks like non-bo with how this deck functions - am I missing something there? Are you still happy with Bridges given the Buglers?
Thanks! Lol, didn't realize Kira counted when you targeted your stuff as well Luckily I never got it on the board then (did change it after this league anyway, double blue is a bit too clunky).
Reveillark is a pretty busted card that has gone in and out of my list during the years. Decided to give it a try now when the deck is more centered around "power 2 or less". Turns out it's still busted to copy it with Saheeli (yes, it triggers on "leaves the battlefield") One time when I copied it and got it to trigger in end step I got back 2 Felidar Guardians from the graveyard - the first one blinking the original Reveillark (getting back 2 more guys), the other one blinking the first Felidar Guardian which then comes back and blinks Reveillark a second time getting back 2 more creatures
Anyone having success against spirits? I'm currently 4-3 in my last 7 league matches and all three losses are against spirits. The games I win are the games where I amount quick pressure with voices, forcing them to play on their own turns, but that hasn't shown to be entirely consistent.
I haven't gotten to play against Spirits yet but as with most aggro decks I'd imagine that you absolutely want every piece of the combo and acceleration in the deck, as racing to combo out seems more likely than presenting a faster clock.
Other cards that seem like they could be good in this matchup: P&K Nalaar, Worship, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, Archangel of Tithes, Stoneforge Dignitary, and maybe even Raking Canopy if you expect to fight Spirits (and Affinity?) enough.
Worship, Ensnaring Bridge and Cataclysmic Gearhulk are really good cards vs Spirits/Humans. The last one also shines against other decks that put lots of permanents on the table (Elves, Lantern etc)
I like how you built the topend to give more 5-CMC payoff cards for Bugler, and the 5-drops are more playable thanks to Cobra-Rallier ramp. Where do you stand on Bugler now? I'm still frustrated that it misses half the combo but I think you've done a lot to solve the issue of cantripping into low-impact cards.
Along those lines, cutting down to 3 Felidars in a combo-centric Cobra-Rallier-Kiki list seems potentially counterproductive but I can see how Bugler drawing you into the Felidar half of the combo might make 4x slightly less necessary. What was your thought process here and how did it turn out in matches?
With a significant portion of your grind-potential tied to the graveyard how do you feel the list is positioned vs UW Control's Path, Terminus, and RIP? For that matter, how awkward is your own RIP?
I'm sure Siefer is eager to hear about how Stonehorn Dignitary performed...
Any other changes you'd make going forward? I'd love a quick rundown of the matches if you have time. Thanks!
EDIT: I will be running a variation of your list tomorrow:
I like how you built the topend to give more 5-CMC payoff cards for Bugler, and the 5-drops are more playable thanks to Cobra-Rallier ramp. Where do you stand on Bugler now? I'm still frustrated that it misses half the combo but I think you've done a lot to solve the issue of cantripping into low-impact cards.
Along those lines, cutting down to 3 Felidars in a combo-centric Cobra-Rallier-Kiki list seems potentially counterproductive but I can see how Bugler drawing you into the Felidar half of the combo might make 4x slightly less necessary. What was your thought process here and how did it turn out in matches?
With a significant portion of your grind-potential tied to the graveyard how do you feel the list is positioned vs UW Control's Path, Terminus, and RIP? For that matter, how awkward is your own RIP?
I'm sure Siefer is eager to hear about how Stonehorn Dignitary performed...
Any other changes you'd make going forward? I'd love a quick rundown of the matches if you have time. Thanks!
EDIT: I will be running a variation of your list tomorrow:
Regarding Bugler: Bugler is great! With 4 Oath, 3 Evolutions and 2 Buglers it shouldn't be that hard to find Felidar Guardian, making it a lot easier to run fewer than 4 of it. I'm currently on 2 Buglers, but could see going up to 3 as well.
Regarding 3 Felidars: See above comment, I think there are a lot of ways to get a Felidar Guardian in your hand or on the battlefield. Having a second copy of Felidar Guardian in your hand is often redundant and sometimes without Rallier, Saheeli or Oath on the battlefield it doesn't do much. I think 3 copies is perfectly fine, especially with Bugler in the deck.
Regarding graveyard centric: If people bring in graveyard hate against me it's perfectly fine - it doesn't stop the combo and against a lot of decks the Voices go out in the sideboard. My own Rest in Peaces are for graveyard combo decks such as Storm and KCI + Mardu Pyromancer / Vengevine / Hollow One and against those decks Voice of Resurgence usually goes out along with some other copies of Rallier/Witness.
Regarding Stonehorn: Stonehorn felt great, especially when combined with Kiki-Jiki I'm not 100% sold since there are so many other good cards to bring in vs the creature decks, but will definitely try it out more (also goes well with Bugler / Reveillark).
Regarding other changes: I would really like to fit in Cataclysmic Gearhulk in the sideboard and perhaps some lifegain main deck to be stronger vs Burn. Also have to try more against Tron; my current deck doesn't have any Moon effects (I don't feel Blood Moon is very good in the current meta + it hurts our own deck to much), so I'm eager to see how that matchup goes.
Last 5-0 league I beat Humans 3 times so that matchup seems so much better now with my current list.
Bugler is great! [...] I'm currently on 2 Buglers, but could see going up to 3 as well.
I feel like you've done so much work to build around Bugler's 2-power constraint that it's almost a waste to only run 2, although 2 might be the right number for the main. I think another 1-2 copies of Bugler in the side makes sense for matchups where you care about raw card advantage more than you mind the drawback of not drawing into the Clone half of the combo. It'd be good vs Control while also performing better than Geist vs Mardu, for example.
If people bring in graveyard hate against me it's perfectly fine - it doesn't stop the combo and against a lot of decks the Voices go out in the sideboard. My own Rest in Peaces are for graveyard combo decks such as Storm and KCI + Mardu Pyromancer / Vengevine / Hollow One and against those decks Voice of Resurgence usually goes out along with some other copies of Rallier/Witness.
I agree about fast degenerate decks like Storm / Vine / H1 -- RIP comes in, value cards go out, no problem. I just think there's an awkward middle ground for Mardu and Death's Shadow where Voice, Rallier and Lark are awesome cards but RIP is really powerful as well. Maybe an early RIP is strong enough to be worth losing power on subsequent copies of Voice / Rallier / Lark, and I do like that Rallier can rez a discarded RIP. It still feels a little awkward, but it might be ok...
Last 5-0 league I beat Humans 3 times so that matchup seems so much better now with my current list.
Having a strong matchup against the format's top deck is a great place to be.
Went 1-2 drop in 3 straight PPTQs over the last 2 weekends. :\ Played Burn 3 times, Mardu 3 times, Hollow One 2 times, and U/W control. I lost one match to Hollow One on a punt, but otherwise, lost a bunch of matches that felt very winnable with the exception of U/W feeling pretty bad.
My losses to Mardu and Burn felt like I just needed to see more/better cards. I died to Burn bricking on a third land for 3 turns when hitting a land would have let me slam a Thragtusk, for example. It might be my local meta, or just luck of the draw, but I've been playing against a ton of interactive red decks lately. I came prepared for Humans, Tron, BridgeVine, Hollow One, KCI, etc, and have yet to see the majority of those decks.
Not pleased with the results, obviously, but I'm not feeling down on the project. Burn in particular feels like a favorable matchup in about every scenario where they're not jamming Searing Blaze into Eidolon of the Great Revel on the play.
U/W moving toward a Terminus-centric build, and me moving away from value town cards has probably put this matchup squarely in the "unfavorable" pile. I think I'm fine with that, but boy did that match feel bad.
Too much value
While this sounds like a good thing, I felt as I always just played Wall of Omens to find a Bugler that found me another Wall that found me a Felidar to blink Bugler to find a BoP. While drawing cards is good, it didn't really pressure my opponent and with 12 0-power creatures in the deck all they had to do was to hold up removal for the Felidar Guardian when I tried to go off. The "Plan B" of our deck wasn't good enough, I guess is a way to summarize it.
Hard to go off in one turn
To play one combo piece one turn and the second one the turn after is often too slow and vulnerable. With no Lotus Cobra it's a lot harder to combo off in the same turn which many times is the way we win/surprises the opponent.
With that said I still feel as there might be something to Militar Bugler, and I will continue to try him out in but in the Lotus Cobra/Rallier shell.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
All in all, I do see potential in Bugler, and I'm defintely going to test it more. However, I have a PPTQ coming up this sunday, and I don't feel comfortable with the Bugler list yet. Most likely I will run my Abzan Evolution list that splashes for Saheeli.
To what extent is the issue that Bugler doesn't hit enough powered creatures to make the beats plan effective vs. the fact that it doesn't cantrip into the Copy half of the combo? We could certainly fill in the beats plan a little bit with something like:
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
2x Lotus Cobra
4x Voice of Resurgence
3x Militia Bugler
2x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Reflector Mage
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
If recording the league takes too much time I’m sure everyone would still appreciate a very brief write up of your matches. At a minimum if everyone just included their individual match scores as part of reporting the League score it would be really helpful.
This is my experience at least. And I don't see how playing 12 0-power creatures and Buglers gives the deck a better matchups against UW/Jeskai. Having 3-4 Voice of Resurgance mainboard should help as well.
@Shelldell: My comment was not in regards to Bugler, but to that specific list that Lejoon posted that I ran two leagues with ( https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1243485#online )
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
We're playing a combo deck - but our combo is extremely fragile because it dies to any removal including Bolt. That's why we need to punish the opponent when he/she interferes with our combo - that's why we play Voice of Resurgence. If we don't have any other game plan than to rely on assembling the combo I think we're playing a very optimistic game plan.
Why are we playing the deck? I have always been a fan of creature combo decks that can win even without the combo, such as Project X back in the day and even Melira Company before it became too boring. Interacting with my graveyard is also something I very much like since it gives me more options, "makes my hand larger".
All that said - watching you play the deck or getting a 5-0 league with it is something I'm very much interested in. Because right now you don't have me sold.
EDIT: Attaching my latest list feat Bugler list that I'm testing at the moment, currently
2-03-04-05-0(!) in league.11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
Consider what our creatures are being asked to do. First, I think both version of the deck currently being discussed are combo decks at their core. Even when I was playing Cobra/Voice/Rallier, I was winning more than 50% of my games with a combo kill. That said, when we do need to win fairly, we're largely doing so off the back of our top tier access to hate. My current Dork/Wall/Moon build is running twelve 0-power guys, but I still manage to kill "fairly" in about 40% of my wins. This has a lot to do with the current makeup of the format - if I have a Stony Silence and Blood Moon in play, Tron is going to have a bad time regardless of what I'm attacking them with.
We certainly don't have flawless mana, but there's a reason I happily jammed 4 Blood Moons a couple of weeks ago. Our mana is pretty darn good, and because we're mostly G/W, we can often get away with fetching for basics after our initial land get. A fetch and a dork lets us cast everything in the deck not named Kiki-Jiki, and we never have to cast a Moon if we think it will hurt us more than them.
This is a skill-intensive deck, and it doesn't offer much margin for error on even seemingly innocuous things like fetching lands. As an example, I lost a game in the cash tournament due to not aggressively hunting for red sources. It would have been painful, but I didn't play to my hand, and was unable to hard cast a Kiki to win an otherwise unwinnable game. It's one of the things I love about this deck, but every damn decision feels like life or death, and the lines are often dangerous and complex.
I'm still going back and forth on Bugler. I love the immediate gratification it provides, I like the body, and appreciate that it plays nicely with all of our blink effects. The thing is, missing on Evolution and Saheeli drives me nuts, and sometimes I want a bit more oomph out of that slot. I may just play it safe and run Trackers again.
A less broad thought: Stonehorn Dignitary is totally nuts right now, and I highly recommend a copy in your 75, regardless of build.
I'm still interested in hearing about how Bridge has performed for you. Also, does Missionary come in for any matchups beyond Burn?
The Missionary is only for Burn yes, and it's probably weaker in this list when I only run 1 Rallier (although 3 Militia Bugler that finds it).
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
EDIT: Although getting stuck with cards in hand because of Reflector Mage and Meddling Mage is very much a concern sometimes, just lost a game because of it vs Humans.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Blade Splicer
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Vengeful Rebel
3x Siege Rhino
2x Felidar Guardian
1x Wingmate Roc
Other Spells 15
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Eldritch Evolution
1x Collective Brutality
2x Lingering Souls
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Spellskite
1x Sin Collector
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1x Reflector Mage
1x Shalai, Voice of Plenty
2x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
My metagame prediction was actually quite good since there were 5x Hollow One, 2x BridgeVine, 2x Storm and 2x Bogles in the 32 player tournament. However, I faced none of those in 5 rounds, instead I got paired against 3 of the 4 big mana decks in the room (3x Scapeshift, 1x Tron). I beat Tron and one Scapeshift player, losing to the other Scapeshift deck. I also won vs Jeskai Control, and lost a really close match playing for top8 against Affinity. While my list is certainly not built to combo every game, a surprising 7 of 8 game wins came via combo, and even the non-combo kill involved a crucial Saheeli -2.
The list:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Renegade Rallier
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Felidar Guardian
2x Reflector Mage
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1x Thragtusk
1x Tireless Tracker
Spells(12)
4x Eldritch Evolution
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
2x Sunpetal Grove
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
2x Fiery Justice
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
1x Blood Moon
1x Sun Titan
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Lone Missionary
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
Notes on the list: The Elvish Mystic should be a Noble Hierarch and the two Sunpetal Grove should be Horizon Canopy. Shrug.
Round 1: Heroic
My opponent was playing an old Heroic deck from Theros standard (I think).
Game 1: I get off to a slower start, but then explode onto the board with a Cobra, 2 Rallier, and Evolution a Voice into the P&K. The flooded board is too much for him to swing through, and I cruise to a win.
Game 2: I T3 combo him out with the classic T1 Birds, T2 Saheeli, T3 Felidar.
Not much to say about this match. I was simply playing a card-for-card more powerful deck than my opponent.
1-0
Round 2: Mono Green Devotion
Game 1: My opponent opens with 2 Arbor Elves and a Wistful Selkie, but can't find a Nykthos this game (I assume he's on Devotion due to the Selkie). I Reflector Mage his Selkie, and my opponent doesn't find a third land until a few turns too late. P&K comes out and cleans up their elves, and I get there with the beatdown.
Game 2: My opponent starts ramps out a T3 Garruk Wildspeaker, but I have T2 Cobra, T3 Rallier, Saheeli -2 to make a hasty Rallier to deal with it. I don't draw the evolution until the next turn, and combo off for the win.
Being able to keep up with the opposing ramp in game two felt strong.
2-0
Round 3: Grixis Shadow
Game 1: I play two Voice out early, and I'm able to fill the board enough to get through their first Gurmag Angler. By the turn my opponent has a threatening Death's Shadow, I can swing with the clean-up crew (an Elemental, 2 Cobra, and a Rallier) to finish the game.
Game 2: We both mull to 6 and keep awkward but playable 6-ers. My opponent casts Inquisition T1 and sees 2 Reflector Mage and some misc stuff. They take a Voice instead, and my Mages keep them off their Angler while I'm able to swing enough damage for the win.
Notably, neither of my hands opened myself up to Stubborn Denial, which was convenient. I was worried about Evolution in this matchup for that reason, but I never saw it. Reflector Mage was a powerhouse.
3-0
Round 4: Jeskai Control
Game 1: I make a mistake and keep a hand with no action until T3. My opponent has answers to my initial threats, including my Tireless Tracker and two Saheeli. They are able to take over the game with Snapcaster and Cryptic and eventually close it out. During the mid-game I had a Rallier rot in hand because I wasn't able to trigger Revolt.
Game 2: We both mulligan to 6, and I trade off my threat for their removal until we're both at one card in hand. With only 4 lands, my opponent taps his blue sources low for a Search for Azcanta, as I rip my Sun Titan off my deck. Safely around counterspells, I slam the Titan, get back a Saheeli to minus and copy Titan, to get back more value. My opponent draws path the following turn, but I eventually win the game off of the huge board swing.
Game 3: After two longer games, we're left with only 3 minutes to play out the last game. Unfortunately, neither my 7 or 6 have a quick combo kill, but my mulligan to 6 has a Bird, Felidar, and 2 Oath of Nissa, so I keep. We unsurprisingly go to turns. On turn 2 of time, I have Saheeli and Felidar in hand, and my only line to win is to Saheeli on T2 and Felidar T4 for the win. I go for it, and he has a Logic Knot for Saheeli so we end up drawing.
We decide to keep playing out the game for fun. I topdecked Thragtusk, and between the Thragtusk and a blink from Felidar, I'm able to win a race against the opposing Clique and Snapcasters.
3-0-1 (4-0?)
I'm pretty happy with my result as a first outing with the deck. Some thoughts on the my list:
I've had the same impression with respect to Shalai, she isn't for every matchup, so depending on the meta she should probably be in the sideboard.
Kiki-Jiki is obviously the card you want to Evo for once you have Felidar already. Since your list only has 2 of them, Kiki isn't great. You might want to either go up to 4 Felidar or cut Kiki. Also, I've had similar problems with casting Kiki, triple red is really difficult sometimes. I can recommend a basic Mountain in addition to the two red shocklands, which allows you to fetch a red source without taking 2 damage and also get red mana from Path to Exile / Field of Ruin.
Sun Titan is definitely amazing if you get to resolve it in the slower matchups. However, 6 mana is a lot, so the opponent often has the time to Thoughtseize or counter it, and it's pretty bad in matchups where grinding value doesn't matter, like Storm or KCI. It's also often out of reach for Eldritch Evolution, 5-drops are much easier to get.
I'm reluctant to move to an all-in combo version having toyed with other combo decks like the turbo vizier decks, and I see others tinkering with that approach and will leave it to them to crack that nut.
Although I'm a bit down on cobras, I do think there is room to better exploit the Ralliers by providing better 2 cmc threats that must be answered by the opponent. In my current configuration, the 2 cmc slot includes a play set of voices, 2 tarmogoyfs, and a scooze.
The other issue I had was how little I found myself searching for the silver bullet cards that are typically in the main deck. Instead of silver bullets, my configuration has card filtering (adventurous impulses) and interaction (path to exiles). The exception here is that i still include shalai as she completely dominates in the matchups where she is needed and, at a bare minimum, protects the combo plan. The card filtering solves a major issue I had in prior versions where I would either draw the wrong half of the deck or be forced to mulligan with poor opening draws.
After five or some matchups, I've been pleasantly surprised with the goyfs and the scoozes in the current mtgo/graveyard heavy meta and the deck overall feels very consistent. I could easily see adjusting the creature distribution to include additional goyfs.
I'll run through some leagues tonight and provide feedback but would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this approach, as it seems that goyfs have been tried earlier but people have seemingly moved away from them.
Creatures
Enchantments/Planeswalkers/Instants/Sorceries
Lands
Sideboard
Update Edit: 5-0 a friendly league. Beat storm (2-1), hollow one (2-1), affinity (2-1), tron (2-1), counters company (2-1). So far, not missing the cobra or the main deck silver bullets. Very impressed with the adventurous impulses in digging for pressure pieces or needed land.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1271146#paper
A couple of questions:
How did the Reveillark feel? Did you find yourself going for it with Evo, or was is mostly something you wanted to draw? The Kira looks like non-bo with how this deck functions - am I missing something there? Are you still happy with Bridges given the Buglers?
Reveillark is a pretty busted card that has gone in and out of my list during the years. Decided to give it a try now when the deck is more centered around "power 2 or less". Turns out it's still busted to copy it with Saheeli (yes, it triggers on "leaves the battlefield") One time when I copied it and got it to trigger in end step I got back 2 Felidar Guardians from the graveyard - the first one blinking the original Reveillark (getting back 2 more guys), the other one blinking the first Felidar Guardian which then comes back and blinks Reveillark a second time getting back 2 more creatures
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
I keep the combo in but maybe that's my mistake.
Other cards that seem like they could be good in this matchup: P&K Nalaar, Worship, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, Archangel of Tithes, Stoneforge Dignitary, and maybe even Raking Canopy if you expect to fight Spirits (and Affinity?) enough.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
I like how you built the topend to give more 5-CMC payoff cards for Bugler, and the 5-drops are more playable thanks to Cobra-Rallier ramp. Where do you stand on Bugler now? I'm still frustrated that it misses half the combo but I think you've done a lot to solve the issue of cantripping into low-impact cards.
Along those lines, cutting down to 3 Felidars in a combo-centric Cobra-Rallier-Kiki list seems potentially counterproductive but I can see how Bugler drawing you into the Felidar half of the combo might make 4x slightly less necessary. What was your thought process here and how did it turn out in matches?
With a significant portion of your grind-potential tied to the graveyard how do you feel the list is positioned vs UW Control's Path, Terminus, and RIP? For that matter, how awkward is your own RIP?
I'm sure Siefer is eager to hear about how Stonehorn Dignitary performed...
Any other changes you'd make going forward? I'd love a quick rundown of the matches if you have time. Thanks!
EDIT: I will be running a variation of your list tomorrow:
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Noble Hierarch
3x Lotus Cobra
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Spellskite
3x Reflector Mage
2x Militia Bugler
2x Renegade Rallier
4x Felidar Guardian
1x Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1x Acidic Slime
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Spells (11)
4x Saheeli Rai
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Eldritch Evolution
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Path to Exile
1x Fiery Justice
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Blood Moon
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Militia Bugler
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Stonehorn Dignitary
1x Reveillark
Thanks!
Regarding Bugler: Bugler is great! With 4 Oath, 3 Evolutions and 2 Buglers it shouldn't be that hard to find Felidar Guardian, making it a lot easier to run fewer than 4 of it. I'm currently on 2 Buglers, but could see going up to 3 as well.
Regarding 3 Felidars: See above comment, I think there are a lot of ways to get a Felidar Guardian in your hand or on the battlefield. Having a second copy of Felidar Guardian in your hand is often redundant and sometimes without Rallier, Saheeli or Oath on the battlefield it doesn't do much. I think 3 copies is perfectly fine, especially with Bugler in the deck.
Regarding graveyard centric: If people bring in graveyard hate against me it's perfectly fine - it doesn't stop the combo and against a lot of decks the Voices go out in the sideboard. My own Rest in Peaces are for graveyard combo decks such as Storm and KCI + Mardu Pyromancer / Vengevine / Hollow One and against those decks Voice of Resurgence usually goes out along with some other copies of Rallier/Witness.
Regarding Stonehorn: Stonehorn felt great, especially when combined with Kiki-Jiki I'm not 100% sold since there are so many other good cards to bring in vs the creature decks, but will definitely try it out more (also goes well with Bugler / Reveillark).
Regarding other changes: I would really like to fit in Cataclysmic Gearhulk in the sideboard and perhaps some lifegain main deck to be stronger vs Burn. Also have to try more against Tron; my current deck doesn't have any Moon effects (I don't feel Blood Moon is very good in the current meta + it hurts our own deck to much), so I'm eager to see how that matchup goes.
Last 5-0 league I beat Humans 3 times so that matchup seems so much better now with my current list.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
I agree about fast degenerate decks like Storm / Vine / H1 -- RIP comes in, value cards go out, no problem. I just think there's an awkward middle ground for Mardu and Death's Shadow where Voice, Rallier and Lark are awesome cards but RIP is really powerful as well. Maybe an early RIP is strong enough to be worth losing power on subsequent copies of Voice / Rallier / Lark, and I do like that Rallier can rez a discarded RIP. It still feels a little awkward, but it might be ok...
Having a strong matchup against the format's top deck is a great place to be.
My losses to Mardu and Burn felt like I just needed to see more/better cards. I died to Burn bricking on a third land for 3 turns when hitting a land would have let me slam a Thragtusk, for example. It might be my local meta, or just luck of the draw, but I've been playing against a ton of interactive red decks lately. I came prepared for Humans, Tron, BridgeVine, Hollow One, KCI, etc, and have yet to see the majority of those decks.
Not pleased with the results, obviously, but I'm not feeling down on the project. Burn in particular feels like a favorable matchup in about every scenario where they're not jamming Searing Blaze into Eidolon of the Great Revel on the play.
U/W moving toward a Terminus-centric build, and me moving away from value town cards has probably put this matchup squarely in the "unfavorable" pile. I think I'm fine with that, but boy did that match feel bad.