I have to ask what's your reasoning for no Street Wraiths? The card is so good with both delve and DS.
I also agree that Esper DS is the better version if you're mostly worried bout Eldrazi, pseudo mirrors and dredge. And you should as those are the most common among tier 1 decks nowadays. I'm not sold on a 3/2 tas/angler split though. I started 2/2, but the more i played the better i found angler while tasigur often was strictly worse due to how it match up against other tasigurs and stuff like smasher. I'm now on a 1/4 split, but i do support 3-4 stubborns as well as that card is so great.
I have been considering adding LotV as another card against the mirror and eldrazi tron, but haven't got to test it yet. Anyone have any input on this?
I have to ask what's your reasoning for no Street Wraiths? The card is so good with both delve and DS.
I also agree that Esper DS is the better version if you're mostly worried bout Eldrazi, pseudo mirrors and dredge. And you should as those are the most common among tier 1 decks nowadays. I'm not sold on a 3/2 tas/angler split though. I started 2/2, but the more i played the better i found angler while tasigur often was strictly worse due to how it match up against other tasigurs and stuff like smasher. I'm now on a 1/4 split, but i do support 3-4 stubborns as well as that card is so great.
I have been considering adding LotV as another card against the mirror and eldrazi tron, but haven't got to test it yet. Anyone have any input on this?
Echoing the above, I've been disappointed drawing Street Wraiths outside the first few turns. They make the deck much more explosive against non-interactive decks, but I ran into more situations where they were dead in hand because I needed to manage my life total. I've been bouncing between playing 0-2 and hitting delve without them hasn't been an issue.
I would love for LoTV to work in this deck but she's a square peg. She requires extra protection, can be challenging to uptick, and we have plenty of removal already. LtLH is a better fit.
Like i said it was a 60 person IQ so there was a lot of decks in the room. I was the only death's shadow player in the top 8. I beat 2 Goryo's vengeance decks, grixis shadow, and bant eldrazi in the swiss and double drew into top 8. I was the 7th seed. I lost both game 1's to the goryo's decks, they basically both had nuts game 1 vs me. Games 2 and 3 weren't very close in my favor. The shadow matchup was very close, i was able to orzhov charm back my shadow and eat his gurmag angler with it game 3. I did flood very badly vs the shadow player though, i think i drew 5 spells to 9 lands. The orzhov charm was the best possible draw. Bant eldrazi i fought through multiple engineered explosives to a relatively easy victory. Those 4 decks felt very manageable.
In the top 8 i played against Grixis delver, Skred red, and in the finals Eldrazi Tron. Grixis Delver felt like a very good matchup, they're trying to do the same thing but with worse cards and they're weak to lingering souls. Stubborn denial is excellent and a lot of the lists are cutting some number of terminates. The great thing about esper is they're forced to leave in their fatal pushes and they only kill 7 cards and lingering souls. It doesn't usually match up real well with our strategy. Skred red i thought would be more close but i beat him in 2 quick games. An early blood moon would probably be our doom though. I was able to keep it off the table.
In the finals i lost to Eldrazi tron. I feel like our deck is very good against 71 out of their 75 cards. The other 4 cards are chalice of the void. Game 1 i thoughtseized him and he didn't have a chalice. He drew it off the top on his turn. Game 2 i thoughtseized him and he had 2 chalices. Game 2 i had a snap in hand and a tasigur in play and a bunch of 1 mana spells. I was trying to find my echoing truth to get the chalice off the table, i hit my d sphere, which i cannot snap back. So that felt bad. That's magic though.
Deck changes: I liked everything about my list for the most part, i didn't play against any swarm decks so the tendrils were the only card i didn't get to board in, i think it's great in those matchups though, so i trust it's fine. As mentioned above with the d sphere, i think i want it to be another instant or sorcery, whether it be 2nd echoing truth or first disenchant. The orzhov charm overperformed all day. So well i thought about a 2nd one but i think it's too much of this effect. I may try to find a spot for a liliana, the last hope in the 75. I am not sure yet. And i like the 4 street wraiths (For the conversation up above). It was rare i couldn't cycle one. I plan on playing this at the invitational and will keep everyone posted on changes i make
It was part of my initial motivation for playing Esper, so I really wanted to make Lingering Souls work. However when I actually saw it in games it was almost never what I wanted -- usually chump blockers or chip damage when I needed to play an answer or threat.
Obviously it worked out fairly well for you, @MediumBursts. How did you use it in your matches?
Why only 3 snaps? (Im taking as reference currently the esper shadow list that top30ed GP Kobe)
I just don't feel like we need the 4th one, it's not as important for us as it is for grixis because we aren't recurring them. We aren't able to bolt snap bolt for reach. We're just doing it to flashback a removal spell or a cantrip so i didn't and don't feel like we need the 4th snapcaster. 3 felt right, i'm sure it's not terrible if you want to play 4 though.
Actually, what's the point in overloading on Lingering Souls maindeck?
I like them only in the mirror (Grixis, Jund Shadow), against other Lingering Souls deck (Abzan, Mirror with w-splash, some random Esper or Mardu lists), Affinity and versus non-Jace AOT controls. For the rest (all the Combo, Big-Mana decks, Eldrazi, CoCo, Burn, Zoo, Dredge, Living End, Eldrazi&Taxes, Elves, Merfolks etcetera) they are just a hindrance for our gameplan. You want cheap threats and disruption, plus some "big" spell like Liliana in the sb for grindy match-ups. Isn't, exactly, Liliana just better in any of the previously cited archetypes (minus Affinity)?
Really, maybe you can also play them in sb, and that's fine. But, according to my experience, maindeck are just the total opposite of what I want to cast.
I had a liliana, the last hope in the 3rd souls spot for the last couple weeks. The list from Kobe came out with 3 souls so i tried it. I felt like it was fine, it makes your thought scours have a higher chance of having big upside. I also liked it because it made more room in my sideboard. I know i want 3 in my 75. It's so good in the matchups you want it. I liked the idea because i figured i would see a lot of grixis shadow, as i expect to see a lot at the invitational. I don't think liliana, the last hope is horrible vs that deck but i'd rather have lingering souls. I may move the 1 to the board again though. Also souls isn't terrible vs dredge or the eldrazi decks (It's just bad vs displacer and to an extent smasher).
It was part of my initial motivation for playing Esper, so I really wanted to make Lingering Souls work. However when I actually saw it in games it was almost never what I wanted -- usually chump blockers or chip damage when I needed to play an answer or threat.
Obviously it worked out fairly well for you, @MediumBursts. How did you use it in your matches?
Like i said above, lingering souls was a fine magic card, i consider it our reach when we need to push through the last bit of damage. I think if you aren't wanting to play lingering souls, you should be playing grixis. Souls is one of the key reasons for the white card splash.
Well, don't take it the wrong way, but all you did was repeating how amazing Lingering Souls is, without providing any content. I'm very sceptical about maindecking a card which we only (if it's in our sb) bring in against grindy MUs. It's not about how good is Souls. It's about how good is HERE, in this strategy. I played it, and it was the real last card I ever wanted to see against Tron, Elrazi, Storm, Living End, CoCo, Dredge, Valakut, Burn, etc, etc. Having some in the 15 is one thing, playing three in the 60 another.
I just don't feel like we need the 4th one, it's not as important for us as it is for grixis because we aren't recurring them. We aren't able to bolt snap bolt for reach.
Given that, if ever I choose to go with 3 Souls maindeck I would maybe shave a Snap because of the deck-curve... not having Kommand is a reason to play MORE, not less of them. Bolt isn't really a thing in Grixis Shadow, it's just removal 5* and sometimes 6*.
Then don't play Lingering souls dude lol. I don't see why you would want to pay esper if you aren't playing lingering souls. 3 is probably too many in the main deck, i wouldn't go below 2 though. It played well for me, i can say with confidence i want lingering souls in my deck. Snapcaster mage is just a card that is significantly better with red cards in your deck. Play what you feel is right, i just gave my 2 cents
It was part of my initial motivation for playing Esper, so I really wanted to make Lingering Souls work. However when I actually saw it in games it was almost never what I wanted -- usually chump blockers or chip damage when I needed to play an answer or threat.
Obviously it worked out fairly well for you, @MediumBursts. How did you use it in your matches?
Like i said above, lingering souls was a fine magic card, i consider it our reach when we need to push through the last bit of damage. I think if you aren't wanting to play lingering souls, you should be playing grixis. Souls is one of the key reasons for the white card splash.
No argument here that Lingering Souls is a great card; in a vacuum I'd certainly play it. But my experience has been that it's usually the last thing in my hand I want to cast. Most games I can't tap out turn three because I need to keep removal or counter mana up. By the time I can comfortably cast it, I'm either in control with a DS or delve creature or I'm digging for an answer. When it's the former, I'm usually not worried about pushing the last few points of damage through immediately because the opponents in a deep hole and I can out-grind most decks at that point between cantrips, counters, and a low land count.
If I could reliably put it in the graveyard with Thought Scour, I'd be more interested since two mana is easier to free up. That's why I'm asking how it played for you, where it was valuable vs not, etc. I'm wondering if I'm missing something or you're just using it in a different spot/function.
My motivation for the white splash is Path over Terminate (exile over destroy, 1 over 2 mana) and the sideboard options (Celestial Purge, Disenchant, etc.). I'm also playing Orzhov Charm at the moment but that could be replaced by LTLH without too much fuss; may end up doing that anyway.
Then don't play Lingering souls dude lol. I don't see why you would want to pay esper if you aren't playing lingering souls. 3 is probably too many in the main deck, i wouldn't go below 2 though. It played well for me, i can say with confidence i want lingering souls in my deck. Snapcaster mage is just a card that is significantly better with red cards in your deck. Play what you feel is right, i just gave my 2 cents
Argumentation exists. Saying that "it plays well" doesn't have much sense. Cards are meant to be discussed, not to say "hey guys, look at this powerhouse, play four of them in your deck!". I asked you why you want to play them, as simple as that. Where they are useful, in your mind, when they wouldn't have been better being the other "usual" cards that this deck runs.
Snapcaster Mage isn't "significantly better" in red, cause Grixis only has 1-2 Bolts and 2 Kommand to recurr, where here you have Paths and Orzhov Charm. That's nonsensical. It isn't a Snap-Bolt deck, where your Snaps usually go on burns. You've got plenty of high-value cc1 spells, like Thoughtseize, Denial, Push and Path. Snapcaster is as good as in Grixis, here.
I'm curious what these other usual cards are in place of lingering souls in esper shadow? Have you been playing a list without them? Do you think there is something better we should be playing? I'm open to discussion on what you think would be better in the 2 or 3 slots lingering souls takes up. I just think it's a necessary evil. Brad Nelson just won the open with Grixis shadow so you know that deck will be popular at larger events, lingering souls sways the match in our favor. It's always great against affinity and it's good against other decks that play lingering souls. I think without lingering souls in our deck, opposing lingering souls is a major problem since we don't have things like temur battle rage.
On snapcaster i think it's just personal preference to be honest. You could certainly take out a souls for the 4th snapcaster. I don't think you'd be wrong per say. I just prefer the 3
@Darkest, it can certainly be awkward in your hand. I just think the upside is too high when flipping cards with thought scour and flipping cards with tasigur. You want to have those hits i think. I played against a couple grixis decks so lingering souls felt pretty strong in those matchups. It also came up against one of the griselbrand decks. He was at low life and he had enough to through the breach plus emrakul to "kill" me but i had 4 lingering souls and 4 lands along with a couple death's shadows. I left back a couple souls to block along with i'm able to sac them to the annihilator trigger. I realize that's not happening all the time with that matchup but i would have certainly been dead without them.
Lingering Souls is also very good because no one wants to discard/counter it and it is good against all the targeted removal.
It is also good for breaking board stalls where you can't attack with DS because you'll die on the backswing so you keep it back and slowly chip in with the Souls' tokens.
I'm curious what these other usual cards are in place of lingering souls in esper shadow?
They are the fourth Snapcaster Mage, more disruption (Inquisition, Stubborn, Deprive), more removals or Orzhov Charm, Liliana the Last Hope. The usual.
I'm open to discussion on what you think would be better in the 2 or 3 slots lingering souls takes up. I just think it's a necessary evil. Brad Nelson just won the open with Grixis shadow so you know that deck will be popular at larger events, lingering souls sways the match in our favor. It's always great against affinity and it's good against other decks that play lingering souls. I think without lingering souls in our deck, opposing lingering souls is a major problem since we don't have things like temur battle rage.
So, in reality, you're in agreement with me about Souls being very good, but only in few matches, so it's a sideboard card? Because it's what your post is saying ^^ As I already state, Souls here are good in the mirror, against opposing Souls decks and in other grindy match-ups, plus Affinity/Infect. The rest of the metagame doesn't care about them. Why playing them in the 60, so?
(I'm not opposing playing Souls in the 75, but I tested them intensively during the last months, and maindeck they were never what I wanted to see.)
On snapcaster i think it's just personal preference to be honest. You could certainly take out a souls for the 4th snapcaster. I don't think you'd be wrong per say. I just prefer the 3
I was referring to the "Snap being worse than in Grixis" argument. As I said, I'm fine shaving one of them if you play multiple Souls maindeck, because they compete for the "3cc" mana curve.
I think D90Dennis14 hit on it pretty well. Plus sideboard slots are tough. Curious on what your board would look like if your removed them from the main deck. I think you can easily cut the ranger. I haven't been super excited about it.
Your snapcaster statement is probably an accurate statement with souls. Well put
Appreciate the explanation, @MediumBursts. I can certainly see the value in the mirror especially as it becomes an increasingly common match-up. Versus Abzan DS/Rock/Jund DS splashing white it's also a good shout to match an opponent's Lingering Souls. Maybe it's hubris, but those match-ups haven't been a common worry for me (playing solely on MTGO). Right now LS is probably my 16th-18th SB card.
My suggestion to replace it, and most of the credit goes to @Bloody_Rabbit, is Deprive. I've been elated with three copies in my main. Obviously great versus combo, but there are very few match-ups where it's dead. It contributes to my favorite pattern of play -- thoughtseize and cantrip the first two turns, beater on T3 with a counter up (Denial or Deprive). From there we can pick off defenders and clock an opponent in 2-4 turns while they struggle for a board presence and run headlong into our counters, flashedback as needed by Snappy.
Not only do people panic when there's a must answer beater in play; the uncertainty caused by an opponent playing around our potentially counter-filled hands is a benefit on its own.
Has Faith's Shield been discussed or tried out yet?
Protects our threats early and overcomes boardstall later in the game? (or protects from lethal burn spells, Scapeshift, Storm etc.)
Think I'm gonna try it as a 1x.
I'm interested in playing this deck, partly because I always liked path to exile, and secondly because I had most of the main deck cards lying around. The list I'll probably try and test is,
Currently I'm only on 3 thoughtseize and 3 lingering souls for goldfishing/playing against other decks I have, but if I can find a fourth thoughtseize before the next local event that's what I'll try. Sideboard I'm not entirely sure what I'll run. Anguished Unmaking seems like a nice esper death's shadow sideboard tech to hate on decks running planeswalkers we otherwise can't really just power through, Collective Brutality, Stony Silence, Surgical, Nihil Spellbomb, Flaying Tendrils, and Disenchant will probably make up a lot of my initial sideboard based around what I have.
I'm interested in playing this deck, partly because I always liked path to exile, and secondly because I had most of the main deck cards lying around. The list I'll probably try and test is,
Currently I'm only on 3 thoughtseize and 3 lingering souls for goldfishing/playing against other decks I have, but if I can find a fourth thoughtseize before the next local event that's what I'll try. Sideboard I'm not entirely sure what I'll run. Anguished Unmaking seems like a nice esper death's shadow sideboard tech to hate on decks running planeswalkers we otherwise can't really just power through, Collective Brutality, Stony Silence, Surgical, Nihil Spellbomb, Flaying Tendrils, and Disenchant will probably make up a lot of my initial sideboard based around what I have.
I started thinking after the gp about this color combo for the invitational.
I landed on this exact 60.
Working on the proper sideboard.
Well the shrines and fountains numbers are flipped for me tbh
I agree with -1 Hallowed Fountain +1 Godless Shrine. The deck is mostly black, and I've had cases where I've thought scoured away the godless shrine and felt constrained on my turn.
I'm not sure about the mirran crusaders in the board. WW is tough to play, and I get that's what the boarded plains is, but what else does it help against besides other GDS lists? I'll probably run this board but with +1 Anguished Unmaking and +2 Collective Brutality/Surgical Extraction over the crusader/plains package.
Yo*****eru Hosaka finished 30th in GP Kobe with esper shadow boys! Is it time to shine?
I'm fairly new to this deck and the death shadow archetype. is there anyone that can point me in the direction of a rough sideboard guide or sideboard help in general that would be appreciated. this deck seems very fun so much so that I tore apart cantrip shift because I was looking for something both competitive and fun. so any help would be greatly appreciated and hope through everyone's work we can push this deck into the tier 1 forum in no time!
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
merfolk-playing
rug cantripshift-back in the binder
ad nauseum-meh
rg ponza/12 moon- trolling
esper death shadow- built and learning
All hail the mighty luck sack walking ballista may he reign supreme- So declares Harambe
I agree with -1 Hallowed Fountain +1 Godless Shrine. The deck is mostly black, and I've had cases where I've thought scoured away the godless shrine and felt constrained on my turn.
I'm not sure about the mirran crusaders in the board. WW is tough to play, and I get that's what the boarded plains is, but what else does it help against besides other GDS lists? I'll probably run this board but with +1 Anguished Unmaking and +2 Collective Brutality/Surgical Extraction over the crusader/plains package.
Yep, the crusaders ended up being unneeded.
I was still in the positive win rates vs gds if i drew them or not.
I ended up last night testing vs eldrazi tron and gds.
Found myself at -1 anguished unmaking-1 plains -2 crusaders
+1 collective brutality +1 engineered explosives +1 lingering souls +1 path to exile.
I really hated cutting the unmaking since it can potentially be a catch all, but I was finding it a little unwieldy. The life loss was awkward at times and when I needed to kill.a chalice it felt a bit clunky. It was nice to have the versatility, but it just felt awkward.
Yep, the crusaders ended up being unneeded.
I was still in the positive win rates vs gds if i drew them or not.
I ended up last night testing vs eldrazi tron and gds.
Found myself at -1 anguished unmaking-1 plains -2 crusaders
+1 collective brutality +1 engineered explosives +1 lingering souls +1 path to exile.
I really hated cutting the unmaking since it can potentially be a catch all, but I was finding it a little unwieldy. The life loss was awkward at times and when I needed to kill.a chalice it felt a bit clunky. It was nice to have the versatility, but it just felt awkward.
I can see the unmakings not making the cut. At 3cmc they're high on the curve, and the life loss is non-negligible when the deck is already hurting itself so much.
Yep, the crusaders ended up being unneeded.
I was still in the positive win rates vs gds if i drew them or not.
I ended up last night testing vs eldrazi tron and gds.
Found myself at -1 anguished unmaking-1 plains -2 crusaders
+1 collective brutality +1 engineered explosives +1 lingering souls +1 path to exile.
I really hated cutting the unmaking since it can potentially be a catch all, but I was finding it a little unwieldy. The life loss was awkward at times and when I needed to kill.a chalice it felt a bit clunky. It was nice to have the versatility, but it just felt awkward.
I can see the unmakings not making the cut. At 3cmc they're high on the curve, and the life loss is non-negligible when the deck is already hurting itself so much.
I currently am working deaths shadow doing grixis first but have been super intrigued by the esper version (esper mage at heart). I am curious to see where this archetype ends up as more people look to push against grixis
so in spending all Wednesday testing with some friends, i have another question and I'm sorry if it's getting old but I'm curious about what other think since others are playing the deck. street wraith seems clunky is it actually worth it or am I just leaning on it too hard to smooth out those not quite there draws since I'm treating it as a cantrip? in reading some other material I've noticed a split on people attitude towards that card. So i guess the real question is wraith worth it or is where something better we could be playing?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
merfolk-playing
rug cantripshift-back in the binder
ad nauseum-meh
rg ponza/12 moon- trolling
esper death shadow- built and learning
All hail the mighty luck sack walking ballista may he reign supreme- So declares Harambe
With out wraith, I feel, you can not normally get enough self damage to turn on death shadow. Also I like it as a giant growth effect for the shadow. Wraith also has solid synergy with visions, allowing us to scry stack the deck and draw the top card.
I could see cutting one or 2 but not all 4.
so in spending all Wednesday testing with some friends, i have another question and I'm sorry if it's getting old but I'm curious about what other think since others are playing the deck. street wraith seems clunky is it actually worth it or am I just leaning on it too hard to smooth out those not quite there draws since I'm treating it as a cantrip? in reading some other material I've noticed a split on people attitude towards that card. So i guess the real question is wraith worth it or is where something better we could be playing?
This deck has a lot of answers, and wants to churn through its deck quickly. Think pre-twin ban modern or legacy delver lists. The idea is to be able to quickly sculpt your hand to take down threats or defend your own. I've only just started testing my list on MTGO (also as ComplexSystems, if anyone wants to test with me), but generally Wraith is meant as a cantrip/giant growth effect for the Shadow, and can help fuel a fast Tasigur/Angler. However, I feel Wraith is often a trap on the play for land light hands. Take for example the following hands;
1. 1 Land, 1 Street Wraith, 5 non-cantrips
2. 1 Land, 2 Street Wraith, 4 non-cantrips
3. 1 Land, 1 Street Wraith, 1 Serum Visions, 4 non-cantrips
4. 1 Land, 1 Street Wraith, 1 Thought Scour, 4 non-cantrips
On the play, I'd still probably mull all these hands. I'd probably keep #3 on the draw since I'll see 3 cards on my first turn, and have visions to help increase the probability of seeing either a 2nd/3rd land with the Scry. For case $2/4, you have about a ~72-74% chance to draw one or more additional lands by the second turn.
Replacing Wraith requires several choices. First, do we want to replace it with another cantrip like Sleight of Hand? Sleight offers slightly better card draw smoothing, but it doesn't synergize with Death's Shadow, and its harder to land a turn 2 Tasigur/Angler since you can't double cantrip turn 1, or use "3 mana" worth of effects turn 2. Alternatively, do we want to replace it with some action. By replacing it with other action cards, you need to decide what matchups/situations you want action for. We already have 5-6 discard effects, 6 kill spells, 2-3 counters, and 2-4 grind cards (souls). So, is there anything in particular you felt the deck needed you'd rather replace it for?
edit: I'm generally pro-Wraith, but its often a dead card for me late game. When I'm at 6 life, I often don't want to take any more self harm, and getting to 5 lands can be rough unless its a super grindy matchup so I rarely get to hard cast it.
I also agree that Esper DS is the better version if you're mostly worried bout Eldrazi, pseudo mirrors and dredge. And you should as those are the most common among tier 1 decks nowadays. I'm not sold on a 3/2 tas/angler split though. I started 2/2, but the more i played the better i found angler while tasigur often was strictly worse due to how it match up against other tasigurs and stuff like smasher. I'm now on a 1/4 split, but i do support 3-4 stubborns as well as that card is so great.
I have been considering adding LotV as another card against the mirror and eldrazi tron, but haven't got to test it yet. Anyone have any input on this?
Echoing the above, I've been disappointed drawing Street Wraiths outside the first few turns. They make the deck much more explosive against non-interactive decks, but I ran into more situations where they were dead in hand because I needed to manage my life total. I've been bouncing between playing 0-2 and hitting delve without them hasn't been an issue.
I would love for LoTV to work in this deck but she's a square peg. She requires extra protection, can be challenging to uptick, and we have plenty of removal already. LtLH is a better fit.
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Orzhov Charm
3 Lingering Souls
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Path to Exile
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Echoing Truth
1 Detention Sphere
2 Collective Brutality
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Like i said it was a 60 person IQ so there was a lot of decks in the room. I was the only death's shadow player in the top 8. I beat 2 Goryo's vengeance decks, grixis shadow, and bant eldrazi in the swiss and double drew into top 8. I was the 7th seed. I lost both game 1's to the goryo's decks, they basically both had nuts game 1 vs me. Games 2 and 3 weren't very close in my favor. The shadow matchup was very close, i was able to orzhov charm back my shadow and eat his gurmag angler with it game 3. I did flood very badly vs the shadow player though, i think i drew 5 spells to 9 lands. The orzhov charm was the best possible draw. Bant eldrazi i fought through multiple engineered explosives to a relatively easy victory. Those 4 decks felt very manageable.
In the top 8 i played against Grixis delver, Skred red, and in the finals Eldrazi Tron. Grixis Delver felt like a very good matchup, they're trying to do the same thing but with worse cards and they're weak to lingering souls. Stubborn denial is excellent and a lot of the lists are cutting some number of terminates. The great thing about esper is they're forced to leave in their fatal pushes and they only kill 7 cards and lingering souls. It doesn't usually match up real well with our strategy. Skred red i thought would be more close but i beat him in 2 quick games. An early blood moon would probably be our doom though. I was able to keep it off the table.
In the finals i lost to Eldrazi tron. I feel like our deck is very good against 71 out of their 75 cards. The other 4 cards are chalice of the void. Game 1 i thoughtseized him and he didn't have a chalice. He drew it off the top on his turn. Game 2 i thoughtseized him and he had 2 chalices. Game 2 i had a snap in hand and a tasigur in play and a bunch of 1 mana spells. I was trying to find my echoing truth to get the chalice off the table, i hit my d sphere, which i cannot snap back. So that felt bad. That's magic though.
Deck changes: I liked everything about my list for the most part, i didn't play against any swarm decks so the tendrils were the only card i didn't get to board in, i think it's great in those matchups though, so i trust it's fine. As mentioned above with the d sphere, i think i want it to be another instant or sorcery, whether it be 2nd echoing truth or first disenchant. The orzhov charm overperformed all day. So well i thought about a 2nd one but i think it's too much of this effect. I may try to find a spot for a liliana, the last hope in the 75. I am not sure yet. And i like the 4 street wraiths (For the conversation up above). It was rare i couldn't cycle one. I plan on playing this at the invitational and will keep everyone posted on changes i make
Obviously it worked out fairly well for you, @MediumBursts. How did you use it in your matches?
I just don't feel like we need the 4th one, it's not as important for us as it is for grixis because we aren't recurring them. We aren't able to bolt snap bolt for reach. We're just doing it to flashback a removal spell or a cantrip so i didn't and don't feel like we need the 4th snapcaster. 3 felt right, i'm sure it's not terrible if you want to play 4 though.
I had a liliana, the last hope in the 3rd souls spot for the last couple weeks. The list from Kobe came out with 3 souls so i tried it. I felt like it was fine, it makes your thought scours have a higher chance of having big upside. I also liked it because it made more room in my sideboard. I know i want 3 in my 75. It's so good in the matchups you want it. I liked the idea because i figured i would see a lot of grixis shadow, as i expect to see a lot at the invitational. I don't think liliana, the last hope is horrible vs that deck but i'd rather have lingering souls. I may move the 1 to the board again though. Also souls isn't terrible vs dredge or the eldrazi decks (It's just bad vs displacer and to an extent smasher).
Like i said above, lingering souls was a fine magic card, i consider it our reach when we need to push through the last bit of damage. I think if you aren't wanting to play lingering souls, you should be playing grixis. Souls is one of the key reasons for the white card splash.
Then don't play Lingering souls dude lol. I don't see why you would want to pay esper if you aren't playing lingering souls. 3 is probably too many in the main deck, i wouldn't go below 2 though. It played well for me, i can say with confidence i want lingering souls in my deck. Snapcaster mage is just a card that is significantly better with red cards in your deck. Play what you feel is right, i just gave my 2 cents
No argument here that Lingering Souls is a great card; in a vacuum I'd certainly play it. But my experience has been that it's usually the last thing in my hand I want to cast. Most games I can't tap out turn three because I need to keep removal or counter mana up. By the time I can comfortably cast it, I'm either in control with a DS or delve creature or I'm digging for an answer. When it's the former, I'm usually not worried about pushing the last few points of damage through immediately because the opponents in a deep hole and I can out-grind most decks at that point between cantrips, counters, and a low land count.
If I could reliably put it in the graveyard with Thought Scour, I'd be more interested since two mana is easier to free up. That's why I'm asking how it played for you, where it was valuable vs not, etc. I'm wondering if I'm missing something or you're just using it in a different spot/function.
My motivation for the white splash is Path over Terminate (exile over destroy, 1 over 2 mana) and the sideboard options (Celestial Purge, Disenchant, etc.). I'm also playing Orzhov Charm at the moment but that could be replaced by LTLH without too much fuss; may end up doing that anyway.
I'm curious what these other usual cards are in place of lingering souls in esper shadow? Have you been playing a list without them? Do you think there is something better we should be playing? I'm open to discussion on what you think would be better in the 2 or 3 slots lingering souls takes up. I just think it's a necessary evil. Brad Nelson just won the open with Grixis shadow so you know that deck will be popular at larger events, lingering souls sways the match in our favor. It's always great against affinity and it's good against other decks that play lingering souls. I think without lingering souls in our deck, opposing lingering souls is a major problem since we don't have things like temur battle rage.
On snapcaster i think it's just personal preference to be honest. You could certainly take out a souls for the 4th snapcaster. I don't think you'd be wrong per say. I just prefer the 3
@Darkest, it can certainly be awkward in your hand. I just think the upside is too high when flipping cards with thought scour and flipping cards with tasigur. You want to have those hits i think. I played against a couple grixis decks so lingering souls felt pretty strong in those matchups. It also came up against one of the griselbrand decks. He was at low life and he had enough to through the breach plus emrakul to "kill" me but i had 4 lingering souls and 4 lands along with a couple death's shadows. I left back a couple souls to block along with i'm able to sac them to the annihilator trigger. I realize that's not happening all the time with that matchup but i would have certainly been dead without them.
It is also good for breaking board stalls where you can't attack with DS because you'll die on the backswing so you keep it back and slowly chip in with the Souls' tokens.
It is rarely great but is almost never bad.
I think D90Dennis14 hit on it pretty well. Plus sideboard slots are tough. Curious on what your board would look like if your removed them from the main deck. I think you can easily cut the ranger. I haven't been super excited about it.
Your snapcaster statement is probably an accurate statement with souls. Well put
My suggestion to replace it, and most of the credit goes to @Bloody_Rabbit, is Deprive. I've been elated with three copies in my main. Obviously great versus combo, but there are very few match-ups where it's dead. It contributes to my favorite pattern of play -- thoughtseize and cantrip the first two turns, beater on T3 with a counter up (Denial or Deprive). From there we can pick off defenders and clock an opponent in 2-4 turns while they struggle for a board presence and run headlong into our counters, flashedback as needed by Snappy.
Not only do people panic when there's a must answer beater in play; the uncertainty caused by an opponent playing around our potentially counter-filled hands is a benefit on its own.
Lingering souls's a great sideboard card against fair decks and make you a big favorite in any pseudo mirror. I run 3 in my board for this reason.
Protects our threats early and overcomes boardstall later in the game? (or protects from lethal burn spells, Scapeshift, Storm etc.)
Think I'm gonna try it as a 1x.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
Spells 25
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Path to Exile
2 Lingering Souls
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
Currently I'm only on 3 thoughtseize and 3 lingering souls for goldfishing/playing against other decks I have, but if I can find a fourth thoughtseize before the next local event that's what I'll try. Sideboard I'm not entirely sure what I'll run. Anguished Unmaking seems like a nice esper death's shadow sideboard tech to hate on decks running planeswalkers we otherwise can't really just power through, Collective Brutality, Stony Silence, Surgical, Nihil Spellbomb, Flaying Tendrils, and Disenchant will probably make up a lot of my initial sideboard based around what I have.
I started thinking after the gp about this color combo for the invitational.
I landed on this exact 60.
Working on the proper sideboard.
Well the shrines and fountains numbers are flipped for me tbh
My current sideboard I'm looking at is
2 flaying tendrils
2 nihil spellbomb
2 disinchant
2 stoney silence
2 mirran crusader
1 plains
1 stubborn denial
1 anguished Unmaking
I'm fairly new to this deck and the death shadow archetype. is there anyone that can point me in the direction of a rough sideboard guide or sideboard help in general that would be appreciated. this deck seems very fun so much so that I tore apart cantrip shift because I was looking for something both competitive and fun. so any help would be greatly appreciated and hope through everyone's work we can push this deck into the tier 1 forum in no time!
rug cantripshift-back in the binder
ad nauseum-meh
rg ponza/12 moon- trolling
esper death shadow- built and learning
All hail the mighty luck sack walking ballista may he reign supreme- So declares Harambe
Yep, the crusaders ended up being unneeded.
I was still in the positive win rates vs gds if i drew them or not.
I ended up last night testing vs eldrazi tron and gds.
Found myself at -1 anguished unmaking-1 plains -2 crusaders
+1 collective brutality +1 engineered explosives +1 lingering souls +1 path to exile.
I really hated cutting the unmaking since it can potentially be a catch all, but I was finding it a little unwieldy. The life loss was awkward at times and when I needed to kill.a chalice it felt a bit clunky. It was nice to have the versatility, but it just felt awkward.
I can see the unmakings not making the cut. At 3cmc they're high on the curve, and the life loss is non-negligible when the deck is already hurting itself so much.
Another Esper Death's Shadow list for the books Thomas Enevoldsen 10-3 GP Vegas
Notes: 3 snapcaster, 4 lingering souls, 4 push, 2 path. 18 lands.
The 18 lands seems wrong.
I am rely liking the 3 3 split push vs path. Would like to go up to 4 souls main, but don't think I'd cut a land to do so.
DECKS:
MODERN:
BUILT:
WBGJunkWBG
BURGrixis ControlBUR
BUILDING:
BGEldraziBG
rug cantripshift-back in the binder
ad nauseum-meh
rg ponza/12 moon- trolling
esper death shadow- built and learning
All hail the mighty luck sack walking ballista may he reign supreme- So declares Harambe
I could see cutting one or 2 but not all 4.
This deck has a lot of answers, and wants to churn through its deck quickly. Think pre-twin ban modern or legacy delver lists. The idea is to be able to quickly sculpt your hand to take down threats or defend your own. I've only just started testing my list on MTGO (also as ComplexSystems, if anyone wants to test with me), but generally Wraith is meant as a cantrip/giant growth effect for the Shadow, and can help fuel a fast Tasigur/Angler. However, I feel Wraith is often a trap on the play for land light hands. Take for example the following hands;
1. 1 Land, 1 Street Wraith, 5 non-cantrips
2. 1 Land, 2 Street Wraith, 4 non-cantrips
3. 1 Land, 1 Street Wraith, 1 Serum Visions, 4 non-cantrips
4. 1 Land, 1 Street Wraith, 1 Thought Scour, 4 non-cantrips
On the play, I'd still probably mull all these hands. I'd probably keep #3 on the draw since I'll see 3 cards on my first turn, and have visions to help increase the probability of seeing either a 2nd/3rd land with the Scry. For case $2/4, you have about a ~72-74% chance to draw one or more additional lands by the second turn.
Replacing Wraith requires several choices. First, do we want to replace it with another cantrip like Sleight of Hand? Sleight offers slightly better card draw smoothing, but it doesn't synergize with Death's Shadow, and its harder to land a turn 2 Tasigur/Angler since you can't double cantrip turn 1, or use "3 mana" worth of effects turn 2. Alternatively, do we want to replace it with some action. By replacing it with other action cards, you need to decide what matchups/situations you want action for. We already have 5-6 discard effects, 6 kill spells, 2-3 counters, and 2-4 grind cards (souls). So, is there anything in particular you felt the deck needed you'd rather replace it for?
edit: I'm generally pro-Wraith, but its often a dead card for me late game. When I'm at 6 life, I often don't want to take any more self harm, and getting to 5 lands can be rough unless its a super grindy matchup so I rarely get to hard cast it.