Crossed the 100 match mark in MTGO Competitive play with this deck! Record is now standing at 72-38, all in MTGO Friendly Leagues or 2-Man Queues. I've been able to basically go quasi-infinite with this deck thanks to the Friendly League Prize Structure (except decided to buy a 3rd Chalice of the Void since I only had 2 before and the Engineered Explosives in the board)...after 2 1-5's in a row though was down to 40 tickets but was able to win 4 2-Man Queues in a row to get back to 80. Probably too much information, but for me this is a big deal ever since MTGO's economy changed to the play points structure it's been a lot harder to do anecdotally for me at least playing mostly traditional D&T and E&T builds. My current build is below:
My thoughts re: match-ups at this point:
-GREAT Match-Ups are: Tron (7-0), Red Deck Wins/Goblins/Burn/Zoo (14-1), Unfair Decks (Ad Nauseam, Reanimator, Eggs, Cheerios, Infect, decks relying on 1 CMC spells)
-GOOD Match-Ups are: Valakut (6-1), Soul Sisters - which used to always be a terrible match-up for D&T/E&T back in the day, but so much more winnable thanks to Chalice and Smasher (4-1), Eldrazi Aggro - this I think is huge because it's Eldrazi Aggro has become the largest part of the meta according to MTGTop8 (10-1 against both Bant and Eldrazi Tron configurations).
-FAIR 50/50 Match-Ups are mostly what you would expect: Jund, Control (UW, Jeskai, UB, Grixis, etc), and Affinity is 50/50 ONLY thanks to the sideboard cards, which brings me to the final point:
-BAD Match-Ups are almost entirely all creature-based strategies that go wide and long. Goblins and Affinity are the only ones I would consider fair or good because of Chalice, Stony Silence and Engineered Explosives plus additional removal we carry. By and large, D&T, Elves, Merfolk (my lone Merfolk win was thanks to a Game 3 win that went to 30+ turns with a Worship on board and a Selfless Spirit and Blinkmoth hitting every turn and Eldrazi Displacer tapping down his lone flying Vendilion Clique), CoCo Chord of Calling (any of the Creature Toolbox decks), Bant Spirits, and Tokens comprise half of my losses. I'm fortunate that with the exception of D&T (1-7 against D&T so roughly 7% of my matches), none of these decks individually comprise a huge part of the MTGO competitive meta. Been following Stabilo's advice to load up on ALL removal which helps, but doesn't really turn the tide yet. The only non-creature based match-up that I would actually say is bad is UR Storm. With Baral and Electromancer they have 8 ways to reduce cost of spells even with Thalia on Board. One match was won by them winning game 1, then game 2 turn 2 Desperate Ritual into a Blood Moon that completely caught me with my pants down. I've seen Storm win through a Rest in Peace as well. I'm 1-3 in this match-up and would like more samples to see if this is truly as bad as it's felt so far as I would imagine this should be a decent match-up.
My thoughts in general:
-The base as described in Stabilo's Primer is rock solid. I would not mess with any of those at all (Lands: 3 Gemstones, 4 Eldrazi Temples, 4 Ghost Quarters, 4 Plains minimum because Blood Moon can really suck Spells: 4 Simian Spirit Guides, 4 Chalices, 3-4 Thalia 1.0's, 4 Arbiter, 1-2 Thalia 2.0, 4 Displacer, 4 Thought-Knot Seer, 4 Reality Smasher, 3 Dismember)
-With that the main development point for this deck is that the manabase still need to be optimized. I commented on this earlier but even after 100 games I don't know what will give us the extra push. Agree with Stabilo in general the following lands are good and should be considered but in what # I'm never sure about (Cavern, Horizon Canopy, Battlefield Forge because late-game Simians really can be useful sometimes), Mutavault, Blinkmoth Nexus for the flying, Tectonic Edge and Eiganjo Castle). I also wonder if 24 lands is sufficient or if 25 is really the optimal number. 23 is definitely too little while running Ghost Quarters to cast Thought-Knots and Reality Smashers reliably without a Vial.
-From the non-land side of the deck, I think there are 4-5 flex slots TOPS. I have 2 Selfless Spirits, 1 Spellskite, 1 Smuggler's Copter. All have proven useful in match-ups here and there to justify its consideration in the deck (ie. Selfless saving my creatures from Anger of the Gods, Wraths and Verdicts, and negating Oblivion Stone), but there have also been plenty of times where I've wished these cards were something else. This is where I also believe a lot of great discussion still remains to be found.
OK thanks for letting me ramble when I'm jetlagged early in the AM from travel. Hope to hear your thoughts and continued discussion on what's been a really fun deck to play in Modern that doesn't make feel like I've been cheating on my first Modern love of D&T/E&T (maybe that's why I keep losing to them). Thanks again Stabilo for the great innovation!
I have done a similar amount of games and have about the same win percentage. Seems pretty good to me!
It's very interesting to see your MU analysis. I had the same results most of the time and generally agree with what you said. I have not had that high of a win percentage against Eldrazi variants and Valakut variants as you have (more close to even) though. But I have found control to be really favorable. Early disrupting creatures followed by hard to deal with threats in TKS and Smasher did work out well (8-2 against Grixis 6-2 against UWx Control). Cavern certainly helps in this MU. Also RIP and Chalice are fantastic against Grixis. As you stated these go wide creature aggro decks are our worst MU. But we have plenty of space in the SB for these MU, we just have to decide what the best answer to them is.
I have not played against the new Storm deck enough to have enough results but I think the MU is in our favor. Side in all your spot removal. They have a very hard time winning without a creature / through Thalia / through RIP / or through a Chalice on two.
To combat our bad MUs I'm currently testing only Aethersphere Harvester and no Copter and two MD Spatial Contortion for the MD flexpots. I like Harvester against creature based strategies as they generally are low on removal, meaning you often have a Thalia/Arbiter to crew it. And because a 3/5 flying lifelinker is very good at attacking/racing/blocking. I think we want to combat these decks in a "Jundish" style. Some good efficient threats (Eldrazis) backed up with a ton of removal to not let them have their creature synergies (multiple merfolk Lords, Tidehollow into Stranger, multiple spirits lords etc.) At best we get some two for ones with Ratchet Bomb style cards and trade some spot removal for some of their threats. Then the individually more powerful Eldrazi can dominate the board. This seems like the most promising approach to me (add some stolen Worship wins to it)
(An unbanned SFM would help in this regard as well )
As for the manabase I'm quite happy with the following atm.
(no double costed white spells between Main and Side)
That's 10 white sources + Gemstone Caverns + GQ for these SB white non-creature spells and 13 + Gemstone Caverns + GQ + Cavern of Souls for the white creatures.
I would like to hear your opinion on the following:
How do you SB against Bant Eldrazi? Chalice yes or no?
How is Smuggler's Copter for you?
How is EE?
Running the basic deck with Stabil0's manabase above, with my 3 flex slots as Blade Splicer, Spellskite, and Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I like Linvala against decks that want to activate creature abilities against us, like Bant Eldrazi, Abzan CoCo, Elves, and the like. Plus 3/4 flyer is fine. Just something I am testing.
Sideboard I have 12 slots more or less locked in and I'll explain my last 3:
Gryff turns off TKS, and only TKS, but it shuts down decks relying on ETB triggers. Not for control, but for creature combo Abzan CoCo), creature-heavy tempo (Spirits, Merfolk), Ww or BW DnT, and can also be fine against Bant Eldrazi, you just have to know when to use them.
Linvala being a flier is certainly nice. This deck is weak to fliers in general. Double white, non-human might be too difficult to cast reliably though.
Huswing Gryff is interesting. It's unfortunate that it doesn't hit lands (Valakut).
I forgot about Declaration in Stone. I will give this one a try, thx.
Big Elspeth is Bant Eldrazis SB card of choice against midrange decks and this deck plays a similar amount of mana so it might be the best fit. I have been toying around with other cards in this slot but ultimately none has proven to be clearly better than the alternatives for me.
Chalice also counters Stirrings from them. I would definitely want my own path to exiles in this MU though. So this is one of the very few awkward scenarios post board where I could see Chalice and Path in the deck. Something that might be reasonable is bringing in Chalice on the play but not on the draw as they most likely have either Stirrings or Noble on T1. (But for this to be relevant you would need SSG and Chalice in your generally keepable hand - might be too rare to consider)
I'm currently testing an EE in the board (swapped two plains for B. Forge). It's often going to be cast for 0,1 or 2 against aggro/creature MU of all kind and BGx. Three is mostly relevant against Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon. But it is definitely borderline. Ratchet Bomb is just very slow but might be the only solution.
@Stabil0
Gryff is great, though if you need more hate for lands, Aven is really it. I agree on the difficulty of casting Linvala potentially, and if she fails, I will actually probably go to an Aven Mindcensor because it shores up Arbiter and is still a flyer. I really want something else, but Restoration Angel is all that comes to mind, and it is only so-so, I think.
Crucible is really the flex spot for the moment. It is not a bad draw early or late and some decks it allows to return to punishing them.
I'm just not convinced the deck can even use EE on 2 regularly enough. At which point, Ratchet isn't much worse if everything is 0 or 1 and Ratchet might actually get to 2 or 3.
Agreed on Bant Eldrazi and needing both Path and Chalice. If all we lose is PtE and they lose PtE, Stirrings, mana dorks, then I am okay with how that went.
EDIT:
3-0-1 last night at a 16 person event, nothing amazing, but just a couple notes.
vs. Affinity drew into $30/eac store credit.
Played 4 games, went 2-2. Resolved Eldrazi Displacer with enough mana to double blink is awesome. Great effect all night, in fact. Linvala was very handy. turns out if they puke out 3 Ornithopters on turn 1 and 2 Signal Pest on turn 2, it is still hard to beat them without wraths because that is a lot of flying damage each turn. I also drew no creatures for 4 turns.
I feel like the deck wants something big with general utility to cast, like Karn Liberated as a 1-of main, but maybe that was the side effect of not having Smuggler's Copter because I had no draw and little airborne interaction.
I have not seen THC aka Mary Jane, in a single game yet.
Mana still feels odd, but that might be inevitable. The lack of R to ever cast Simian Spirit Guide was obvious, though it only hurt me once. The need to burst pushes against the desire to go big eventually. We could still do Tron lands, but then you lose potential for those explosive beginnings.
Still contemplating my 3 flex slots in the main:
Linvala
Spellskite
Blade Splicer
Aven is certainly a possibility as it would especially help in the Valakut MU (even if they often still find a land in their top 4 cards I have found).
I don't think that this deck is missing top end. 4 TKS, 4 Smasher and 4 Displacer is enough IMO. If anything I would try to smooth out the curve as much as possible (also one of the reasons I'm hesitant about a 4 mana flyer).
I have tried Blade Splicer a fair amount and I think it is not great in this deck. Missing Flickerwisp and Resto is real. I always thought the interaction with Displacer would be super strong but in reality it doesn't come up and if you have two creatures and excessive mana for Displacer you are winning anyway (win more combo). I have since changed it to Matter Reshaper which fills the same role but works better in this deck. Also since the meta shifted away from dredge and more to big Goyfs/Death Shadow and Eldrazi, a 3/3 is just not that impressive while Reshaper still blocks and cycles into another card.
Linvala seems pretty good against Eldrazi Tron in general and Walking Ballista particularly as you pointed out.
I have recently steered away form vehicles and opted for "max-impact" type cards (which just means two more Reshaper). Generally Vehicles are good in creature MUs or against Wrath of God but are not what you want against either combo or control. This is the list I went 5-0 with yesterday. (I do still like both Copter and Harvester though, just wanted to try a different route)
Lately I have found the mana to work out quite nicely actually. I don't think Tron lands are possible. As you said you really want these explosive starts.
I get going to Matter Reshaper. I also found Blade Splicer less than amazing and you are right about the difference between a deck with 8-12 blinkers and 4. Besides, Eldrazi Displacer is often best blinking your opponent's creatures. Still tinkering between Reshaper for aggro and replacement and hate consistency (3 Reshaper vs. Linvala + 2 Aven Mindcensor.) Might make Linvala into Aven Mindcensor still. Sure, sometimes your opponent finds it off the top, but it hinders any fetching deck and it functions like Arbiter #5, which increases our consistency. I am in fact tempted to replace Reshapers with Mindcensors. I guess the question is, what kind of deck is this?
Sideboard remains tough. Dropping a Stony Silence feels rough, even going to 4 PtE + 1 DiS. It does make your EE better. Here is mine ATM:
@redtwister
I can definitely see Aven Mindcensor. Personally I will pursue the Reshaper direction a bit further to get max value of Eldrazi Temple (one of the more broken cards in Modern from a pure power level standpoint). Interested to hear how it plays out for you though if you go this direction.
This deck is some sort of aggro Stax / aggro lockout strategy I would say. Eldrazi and Staxes would probably have been the better name for it or even white Eldrazi as the vintage version.
You play Grafdigger's over RIP for CoCo and Chord basically or am I missing something else?
@G_g53
Yeah I have found Canopies to be pretty great. I would recommend some numbers of them.
Good point about Matter Reshaper and Wastes. Blood Moon can randomly get you but at least online I have not run played against it that often. I still think that if we play Wastes it should be in the Main not the SB. SB slots are too valuable.
Purge gets sided in quite often. I bring it in against Jund, Abzan, Death Shadow, Burn, Dredge, UR Gifts storm (Electromancer and for their Sb Blood Moon), Sun and Moon, Skred Red, (maybe Grishoalbrand and 8Rack) and some random others. That's quite a big part of the meta. And it gives you an angle of attack / versatility that not many other cards give you. And it gets around Chalice.
I have often thought about a Disenchant effect. Mostly for Ensnaring Bridge. I could definitely see one in the board (or just an additional Ratchet Bomb), but I always used the slots for other cards.
I think if EE gets reliably to two that's good enough to be worth its inclusion. If not then Ratchet Bomb will probably be next best.
@Stabil0 Grafdigger's Cage for CoCo and Chord for sure, which hits Abzan Company and Elves, but it also stops Dredge, Nahiri -8 in Sun and Moon and UWR Control decks and is usable against Snapcaster Mage decks, though not as good as RiP.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
The main deck did most of the work, by far. A RiP gave me an edge against UWR Control game 3, but none of my other sideboard cards mattered very much. Kind of want Path to Exile to be Blessed Alliance, but I think that is worse in the Bant Eldrazi match. I just hate having Chalice and PtE in at the same time. If there was a 2 mana instant exile spell, I might play it, but I think everything is either edict effect or sorcery speed.
Given the matches the sideboard are for, I don't feel like I was ever at a loss for value in the main tonight. Loving the deck, despite the lack of deck manipulation. Got to do turn 2 Reality Smasher.
Went 3-0-1 again (drew into prize) at my locals. Beat UWR Mid-range 2-1, TitanShift 2-1, Naya Burn 2-1.
The main deck did most of the work, by far. A RiP gave me an edge against UWR Control game 3, but none of my other sideboard cards mattered very much. Kind of want Path to Exile to be Blessed Alliance, but I think that is worse in the Bant Eldrazi match. I just hate having Chalice and PtE in at the same time. If there was a 2 mana instant exile spell, I might play it, but I think everything is either edict effect or sorcery speed.
Given the matches the sideboard are for, I don't feel like I was ever at a loss for value in the main tonight. Loving the deck, despite the lack of deck manipulation. Got to do turn 2 Reality Smasher.
I think that Blessed Alliance is definitely a valid option. Against Bant Eldrazi it is great against Smasher and poor against Displacer (which becomes one of the best cards as the game goes long). It's also decent against Bant Spirits (which is probably the worst MU for this deck) and Death Shadow.
I think some Path to exiles are absolutely necessary but I could see the 4th (or maybe even 3rd) become other removal spells. But there are just many MU where Path is great.
The only time where Path and Chalice is annoying is against Bant Eldrazi (if Chalice stays in after SB), Abzan and Death Shadow but it can come up from time to time.
Edit: What I have found: Inquisitor's Snare Immolating Glare Purge Reprisal
They seem all kind of bad though. The best of them being Reprisal I would say. Good against BGx (including Death Shadow) and Eldrazi Variants. Journey to nowhere seems better at 2 cmc. Maybe it is the better choice than declaration in stone.
Reprisal is oddly good since it hits Primeval Titan, most Eldrazi we care about, relevantly-sized Death's Shadows, equipped Robots, most pumped Infect creatures, but against Abzan Company, well, PtE's exile is huge and, as you note, dealing with Eldrazi Displacer is very important, and it is also useful against Tron (though there I think we are all in on the mana denial and Stony Silence plan.)
For Death's Shadow, I really like having 2 Celestial Purge because it also deals with Liliana. In a way, I am least concerned with Tarmogoyf, since I am siding in 2 RiP, 2 Purge, 1 Declaration in Stone. I don't feel the need for PtE there.
So thinking about sideboarding in general if I look at my sideboard, here is how it shapes up (please add decks I have missed and correct any mistakes you see): Path to exile: Abzan Company, Bant Eldrazi, Titan.dec, Tron, Reanimator, Infect, Eldrazi Tron, Stony Silence: Tron, Lantern Control, Affinity, Cheerios, Ad Nauseum Hushwing Gryff: Abzan, Abzan Company, UWR Midrange, Bant Eldrazi, any and all DnT/Hatebears, Merfolk, Spirits, Titan.dec, Rest in Peace: Dredge, Grixis/UWR Control, Death's Shadow, Jund, Abzan Company, Reanimator Grafdigger's Cage: Abzan Company, Dredge, Bant Spirits, Reanimator Celestial Purge: Jund, Death's Shadow, Sun and Moon, Abzan, Reanimator, Grixis Control/Young Pyro, Declaration in Stone: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Bant Eldrazi, Jund, Eldrazi Tron Worship: Jund, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, all DnT, Abzan Company, Abzan
If we can shut down opponents' activated abilities and all creature-initiated ETB triggers, I feel like Path to Exile becomes less crucial and Gryff actually works very well with Chalice of the Void on 1 since it both shuts off most relevant removal in Modern and hurts our worst matches far more than us.
This is why I am trying to think about what can replace PtE with if it is less critical, since our goal now is to shut off our opponent rather than rely primarily on removal, removal that is a 1-off effect that frequently gives them more mana.
For example, with Abzan Company, I have hate for Chord (4 Arbiter, 2 Mindcensor), ETB creature effects (2 Gryff), return from the graveyard effects (1 Cage, 2 RiP), Company (1 Cage), and creature activated abilities (1 Linvala), so do I feel the need for Path at this point, esp since path is the weaker play than Gryff around the combo and I want to use Chalice on 1?
Oh yeah, Valorous Stance is interesting. My only issue with it is that 4 toughness, while awesome at killing Restoration Angel and it hits Goyf a turn sooner, is not to good against Affinity compared to Reprisal. I do like making a creature of ours indestructible as an option. That's kinda gross in some situations, especially if you are saving a Reality Smasher.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Good catch G_g53. Seems strictly better than Reprisal. Better against Goyf because toughness instead of power and has an actual important second ability.
@redtwister: Path: what you said and additionally against: DnT, Merfolk, Bant Spirits, Jund, Abzan, Death Shadow, Cheeri0s, Ur Giftsstorm, Affinity, Dredge, Sun and Moon (because we have not enough to bring in - helps against Blood Moon and kills Gideon), maybe Goryos.dec. I'm not sure if I want it against Valakut. A resolved Titan will generate enough value with Valakuts to win the game most of the time. And against their Obstinant Baloth type creatures I prefer Dismember to not ramp them. Stony: additionally against Eldrazi Tron (Ballista, Mindstone, Map, Basilisk Collar) Hushwing: I would not bring it in against regular Abzan (Lingering Souls makes you cry and the only creature it hits is Siege Rhino) RiP: and Esper Control and regular Abzan and Ur Gifts storm Grafdigger: agree Purge: and against burn: out: dismember in: Worship, Purge, EE Declaration in Stone: I wouldn't against Grixis control. For 3 Tasigur you have 4 Displacer and Purge if you bring it in and Dismember. That's enough. Plan A against Tasigur is RiP. Elspeth: and Abzan and Grixis and UWx Control, maybe Merfolk for the sweeper effect, Worship: I probably wouldn't against Jund, they have so much removal and can win with Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse. I'm not sure about Eldrazi Tron either as they have all is Dust, Ulamog, Karn, Walking Ballista and Endbringer - Basilisk Collar combo. But I would additonally against Death Shadow, Merfolk, Spirits, Burn, Amulet Titan, Ur Gifts Storm.
I think Hushwing helps against other Eldrazi decks, Abzan Company and Valakut decks mostly. But I don't think it has the capabilites to make Path obsolete as I bring in Path against a wide range of decks (as shown above). I also play only online where Abzan Company is not really a thing, (neither is UWr Midrange) so the Meta can be a bit different than in real life.
With Merfolk, Affinity, Jund, Dredge and Death's Shadow, I think I prefer Declaration in Stone to Path to Exile in this deck because we are really a tap-out deck. It's not like we are often able to leave up mana if we have creatures to play, so I am ok going in on 3 mana to not only exile something, but to potentially hit 2+ creatures. All of those decks love to have 2 or more of the same creature out, so the 2-for-1 seems worth having to have 2 mana to cast it.
On UR Giftsstorm, DnT, Infect and Bant Spirits, yeah, I think we will miss instant speed at cmc 1. Maybe I will end up with it again. I was the only Spirits player at my locals and the deck is not that common, since i think it is still one more good Spirit from being outstanding. Only 3 people who played Merfolk at my locals, but 1 rarely shows and the other went Lantern control (and I was the 3rd, since I like decks like Spirits and Merfolk, and the only thing I like more are creature prison decks!) No one is playing Infect right now, though I suspect that will change, and Dredge has dropped off considerably as well. That pretty much leaves Affinity and Death's Shadow and that still makes me want DiS. I'll keep testing and let you know.
On PrimeTime, yeah, that resolved seems nearly unbeatable, though I did get through one yesterday. It was the second one that killed me
Good catch on Purge, I used it yesterday against Bun and forgot! Also, agreed on Purge vs. Grixis.
And thanks for the thoughts on using Worship, I have probably been using it non-optimally.
@redtwister It's easier to tap out for another creature and a removal spell if the removal costs one instead of two. T3 you could go Arbiter and Path, T4 Reshapher and Path etc. which is not possible with Declaration. It's easier to have explosive openings, and smooth turns in general, if your curve is as low as possible.
Keep in mind that Declaration is never a two for one. They get two clues if you exile two creatures. So against Jund it's quite miserable to let them basically cycle their creature while you are down a card. It seems great against Death Shadow though (we leave in Chalice and they only have two different creatures, are tight on mana and tend to have many dead draws lategame especially if we have a Chalice or RiP out.)
(The token aspect could come up from time to time. I won against Storm by exiling all the empty the warrens tokens with Declaration).
I think 2-4 Path is a must. But I could see some combination of 2cmc removal spells in addition (Celestial Purge, Valorous Stance, Declaration in Stone, Journey to nowhere, Blessed Alliance). If they prove to be good we could maybe go as low as 2 Path. Atm I play about 6-8 of these kind of cards.
On Worship: I forgot to mention Affinity and Dredge. It's good against them as well.
You are definitely right on Huswhing - it's good against DnT.
@G_g53
I don't think that one is good enough. Without Temple it's just too expensive. And as you said the tribal aspect is a thing as well.
Guys,
Haven't been able to play and been in the discussion as much. Currently sitting at 83-47 now in MTGO Leagues & 2-Man Queues (.638 win rate) so have been regressing to a mean somewhat from the days when I think I was sitting at 70% win rate. I've bumped the Spellskites due to the changing meta in favor for the Matter Reshapers and Aven Mindcensor as redtwister suggested. Still doing great against Eldrazi - 12-1 right now, but pretty much auto-losing to every wide creature based strategy. I think shucking up the cash for 2nd and 3rd Horizon Canopies and Cavern of Souls as well as the 4th Chalice of the Void may be necessary.
Stabilo, you've probably already figured out a lot of these but you asked these a while ago and didn't want to leave you hanging:
Q: How do you SB against Bant Eldrazi? Chalice yes or no?
A: Yes. Shut off Nobles, Ancient Stirrings, Paths, totally keep them in.
Q: How is Smuggler's Copter for you?
A: Ehhh. By the time you guys started talking about Aven Mindcensor and Matter Reshapers, I was more than ready to trade Copter out for either of those 2.
Q: How is EE?
A: Sounded like you figured this out already but yeah an EE that can realistically only go up to 2 most of the time is more than sufficient to be sideboard-worthy at least for me. I'm glad it's in there and plan to keep it as well.
@bmchu168
What are the 'go wide' strategies you are having issues with? Stuff like Merfolk and Spirits? Hatebears/DnT?
Anyone else feel Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a bit meh? It loses steam if I can't play it turn 3 or 4 quite often, and only having two hasn't been great. Maybe am not doing it right?
Hi RedTwister,
Yes, exactly that. Merfolk, Spirits, Hatebears/D&T, Elves, the whole lot. Affinity is also not a great matchup though Stony Silence is obviously great. The Abzan/Creature Toolbox Combos are also terrible for me as well.
Death's Shadow I've only played once and lost but I feel like Chalice should put in great work there...we'll see.
I only run one THalia, Heretic Cathar...she doesn't come up too often and if she's not useful, easy to side out.
To be precise, after playing 138 competitive matches in MTGO (got a few 4-1's recently so back up to 89-49 65% win rate), here are the creature-based matchups I feel good about that the record backs up:
-Eldrazi Aggro
-Zoo (the new HIdden Herbalist/Voltaic Brawler versions are a bit tougher than before, but have still managed to win 100% of the matches)
-Red Deck Wins/Burn
-Goblins
-Soul Sisters
The bad creature-based matchups are the following for me:
-Merfolk
-Elves
-Faeries
-Tokens
-Spirits
-Creature Toolbox/Abzan Chord
-D&T
-Affinity (3-5, it's shaky, but definitely winnable)
The highly synergized, value-based, and interactive decks appear to be tougher for us, but other than that, it's hard for me to pinpoint what makes some of these matchups just so dang unwinnable, but obviously siding in all removal from the board has become a no-brainer. Looking at how Eldrazi White is now starting to pop up in Legacy now, I feel like Stoneforge Mystic would literally push this deck right into Tier 1 overnight, but alas, that'll probably never happen.
@redtwister
I generally do like big Thalia. She gives you a special kind of interaction that other cards can not offer. I have found her to be at her best in a race type situation against something like Bant Eldrazi. I think she is good against big mana decks and against Combo of all kind as she can easily prolong the game for one or two critical turns. I don't like her against grindy decks though (BGx for example) and side her out in these MUs.
I don't think she's fantastic but I've been ok with her. But I would certainly not fault anybody for replacing her - she is not as important as Arbiter for example.
@bmchu168
Thanks for your report.
Lately I have found Merfolk to be quite winnable (won the last 4 matches against them) and I'm even against DnT as well. Spirits seems to be the worst MU.
Death Shadow is in our favor I would say but it is just a very good and powerful deck so all the games can swing either way.
Maybe try a second Worship in your SB. This one is tailor-made against go wide aggro.
I also recently won a couple more D&T matches... Mostly against the mono white version with thraben inspectors. I would agree this version is easier to deal with. Do you sideboard in Stony Silence against Merfolk and D&T? I generally don't but have recently which I think helped me win my recent marches against d&t.
Ok now moving on to very low probability hypotheticals, if sfm got unbanned, what would we do about arbiter? What kind of split would you guys go to?
@bmchu168 I would not side in Stony just for Aether Vial.
Look at the different scenarios:
1. They open with Vial and you have Stony. You trade a card and your second turn for one of their cards but only one of their mana. Best case scenario but not even great.
(if they have multiple Vials Stony doesn't get much better since multiple Vials are kind of redundant)
2. They open with Vial and you topdeck Stony later in the game. - Stony is a dead card.
3. They don't open with Vial but you have Stony. - Stony is a dead card.
They only have about 40% chance to have an opener with Vial. Even though Vial opens you up to some nasty things, especially against BW EnT, I don't think it's worth it to bring them in.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/eldrazi-staxes/
My thoughts re: match-ups at this point:
-GREAT Match-Ups are: Tron (7-0), Red Deck Wins/Goblins/Burn/Zoo (14-1), Unfair Decks (Ad Nauseam, Reanimator, Eggs, Cheerios, Infect, decks relying on 1 CMC spells)
-GOOD Match-Ups are: Valakut (6-1), Soul Sisters - which used to always be a terrible match-up for D&T/E&T back in the day, but so much more winnable thanks to Chalice and Smasher (4-1), Eldrazi Aggro - this I think is huge because it's Eldrazi Aggro has become the largest part of the meta according to MTGTop8 (10-1 against both Bant and Eldrazi Tron configurations).
-FAIR 50/50 Match-Ups are mostly what you would expect: Jund, Control (UW, Jeskai, UB, Grixis, etc), and Affinity is 50/50 ONLY thanks to the sideboard cards, which brings me to the final point:
-BAD Match-Ups are almost entirely all creature-based strategies that go wide and long. Goblins and Affinity are the only ones I would consider fair or good because of Chalice, Stony Silence and Engineered Explosives plus additional removal we carry. By and large, D&T, Elves, Merfolk (my lone Merfolk win was thanks to a Game 3 win that went to 30+ turns with a Worship on board and a Selfless Spirit and Blinkmoth hitting every turn and Eldrazi Displacer tapping down his lone flying Vendilion Clique), CoCo Chord of Calling (any of the Creature Toolbox decks), Bant Spirits, and Tokens comprise half of my losses. I'm fortunate that with the exception of D&T (1-7 against D&T so roughly 7% of my matches), none of these decks individually comprise a huge part of the MTGO competitive meta. Been following Stabilo's advice to load up on ALL removal which helps, but doesn't really turn the tide yet. The only non-creature based match-up that I would actually say is bad is UR Storm. With Baral and Electromancer they have 8 ways to reduce cost of spells even with Thalia on Board. One match was won by them winning game 1, then game 2 turn 2 Desperate Ritual into a Blood Moon that completely caught me with my pants down. I've seen Storm win through a Rest in Peace as well. I'm 1-3 in this match-up and would like more samples to see if this is truly as bad as it's felt so far as I would imagine this should be a decent match-up.
My thoughts in general:
-The base as described in Stabilo's Primer is rock solid. I would not mess with any of those at all (Lands: 3 Gemstones, 4 Eldrazi Temples, 4 Ghost Quarters, 4 Plains minimum because Blood Moon can really suck Spells: 4 Simian Spirit Guides, 4 Chalices, 3-4 Thalia 1.0's, 4 Arbiter, 1-2 Thalia 2.0, 4 Displacer, 4 Thought-Knot Seer, 4 Reality Smasher, 3 Dismember)
-With that the main development point for this deck is that the manabase still need to be optimized. I commented on this earlier but even after 100 games I don't know what will give us the extra push. Agree with Stabilo in general the following lands are good and should be considered but in what # I'm never sure about (Cavern, Horizon Canopy, Battlefield Forge because late-game Simians really can be useful sometimes), Mutavault, Blinkmoth Nexus for the flying, Tectonic Edge and Eiganjo Castle). I also wonder if 24 lands is sufficient or if 25 is really the optimal number. 23 is definitely too little while running Ghost Quarters to cast Thought-Knots and Reality Smashers reliably without a Vial.
-From the non-land side of the deck, I think there are 4-5 flex slots TOPS. I have 2 Selfless Spirits, 1 Spellskite, 1 Smuggler's Copter. All have proven useful in match-ups here and there to justify its consideration in the deck (ie. Selfless saving my creatures from Anger of the Gods, Wraths and Verdicts, and negating Oblivion Stone), but there have also been plenty of times where I've wished these cards were something else. This is where I also believe a lot of great discussion still remains to be found.
OK thanks for letting me ramble when I'm jetlagged early in the AM from travel. Hope to hear your thoughts and continued discussion on what's been a really fun deck to play in Modern that doesn't make feel like I've been cheating on my first Modern love of D&T/E&T (maybe that's why I keep losing to them). Thanks again Stabilo for the great innovation!
Thanks for this post dude! Appreciate it.
I have done a similar amount of games and have about the same win percentage. Seems pretty good to me!
It's very interesting to see your MU analysis. I had the same results most of the time and generally agree with what you said. I have not had that high of a win percentage against Eldrazi variants and Valakut variants as you have (more close to even) though. But I have found control to be really favorable. Early disrupting creatures followed by hard to deal with threats in TKS and Smasher did work out well (8-2 against Grixis 6-2 against UWx Control). Cavern certainly helps in this MU. Also RIP and Chalice are fantastic against Grixis. As you stated these go wide creature aggro decks are our worst MU. But we have plenty of space in the SB for these MU, we just have to decide what the best answer to them is.
I have not played against the new Storm deck enough to have enough results but I think the MU is in our favor. Side in all your spot removal. They have a very hard time winning without a creature / through Thalia / through RIP / or through a Chalice on two.
To combat our bad MUs I'm currently testing only Aethersphere Harvester and no Copter and two MD Spatial Contortion for the MD flexpots. I like Harvester against creature based strategies as they generally are low on removal, meaning you often have a Thalia/Arbiter to crew it. And because a 3/5 flying lifelinker is very good at attacking/racing/blocking. I think we want to combat these decks in a "Jundish" style. Some good efficient threats (Eldrazis) backed up with a ton of removal to not let them have their creature synergies (multiple merfolk Lords, Tidehollow into Stranger, multiple spirits lords etc.) At best we get some two for ones with Ratchet Bomb style cards and trade some spot removal for some of their threats. Then the individually more powerful Eldrazi can dominate the board. This seems like the most promising approach to me (add some stolen Worship wins to it)
(An unbanned SFM would help in this regard as well )
As for the manabase I'm quite happy with the following atm.
(no double costed white spells between Main and Side)
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault (Flexspot)
6 Plains
That's 10 white sources + Gemstone Caverns + GQ for these SB white non-creature spells and 13 + Gemstone Caverns + GQ + Cavern of Souls for the white creatures.
I would like to hear your opinion on the following:
How do you SB against Bant Eldrazi? Chalice yes or no?
How is Smuggler's Copter for you?
How is EE?
Not repeating it.
Running the basic deck with Stabil0's manabase above, with my 3 flex slots as Blade Splicer, Spellskite, and Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I like Linvala against decks that want to activate creature abilities against us, like Bant Eldrazi, Abzan CoCo, Elves, and the like. Plus 3/4 flyer is fine. Just something I am testing.
Sideboard I have 12 slots more or less locked in and I'll explain my last 3:
Gryff turns off TKS, and only TKS, but it shuts down decks relying on ETB triggers. Not for control, but for creature combo Abzan CoCo), creature-heavy tempo (Spirits, Merfolk), Ww or BW DnT, and can also be fine against Bant Eldrazi, you just have to know when to use them.
Elspeth I still like for the mid-range fights.
Crucible is just a piece of mean.
Other candidates:
Dec is interesting as a way to get another kind of high-value exile removal for 2+ mana that is also a mini-sweeper.
Against Bant Eldrazi, 2 Chalice for mana dorks and PtE. i bring in Gryffs, Elspeth, Crucible, actually.
Don't have Copter yet, but the idea is right.
EE is a NoNo, IMO, esp if you can't generate 3 colors regularly. For this deck, Ratchet Bomb would be better.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Linvala being a flier is certainly nice. This deck is weak to fliers in general. Double white, non-human might be too difficult to cast reliably though.
Huswing Gryff is interesting. It's unfortunate that it doesn't hit lands (Valakut).
I forgot about Declaration in Stone. I will give this one a try, thx.
Big Elspeth is Bant Eldrazis SB card of choice against midrange decks and this deck plays a similar amount of mana so it might be the best fit. I have been toying around with other cards in this slot but ultimately none has proven to be clearly better than the alternatives for me.
Chalice also counters Stirrings from them. I would definitely want my own path to exiles in this MU though. So this is one of the very few awkward scenarios post board where I could see Chalice and Path in the deck. Something that might be reasonable is bringing in Chalice on the play but not on the draw as they most likely have either Stirrings or Noble on T1. (But for this to be relevant you would need SSG and Chalice in your generally keepable hand - might be too rare to consider)
I'm currently testing an EE in the board (swapped two plains for B. Forge). It's often going to be cast for 0,1 or 2 against aggro/creature MU of all kind and BGx. Three is mostly relevant against Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon. But it is definitely borderline. Ratchet Bomb is just very slow but might be the only solution.
Gryff is great, though if you need more hate for lands, Aven is really it. I agree on the difficulty of casting Linvala potentially, and if she fails, I will actually probably go to an Aven Mindcensor because it shores up Arbiter and is still a flyer. I really want something else, but Restoration Angel is all that comes to mind, and it is only so-so, I think.
Crucible is really the flex spot for the moment. It is not a bad draw early or late and some decks it allows to return to punishing them.
I'm just not convinced the deck can even use EE on 2 regularly enough. At which point, Ratchet isn't much worse if everything is 0 or 1 and Ratchet might actually get to 2 or 3.
Agreed on Bant Eldrazi and needing both Path and Chalice. If all we lose is PtE and they lose PtE, Stirrings, mana dorks, then I am okay with how that went.
EDIT:
3-0-1 last night at a 16 person event, nothing amazing, but just a couple notes.
vs. Grixis Control 2-0
++ 2x Rest in Peace, 1x Elspeth, Sun's champion, 1x Grafdigger's Cage.
-- 3x Dismember, 1x Blade Splicer 1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1-0
vs. Grixis Control 2-1
Different build, using Bedlam Reveler.
++ 2x Rest in Peace, 1x Elspeth, Sun's champion, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 2x Celestial Purge
-- 3x Dismember, 1x Blade Splicer 1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence, 1x Linvala, Keeper of silence, -1 Spellskite
2-0
vs. Ghirapur Aether Grid Artifacts 2-0
2x Celestial Purge, 3x Stony silence, 3x Path to Exile
-- 3x Dismember, 3x thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2x thalia, Heretic Cathar
Linvala was amazing against Walking Ballista.
3-0
vs. Affinity drew into $30/eac store credit.
Played 4 games, went 2-2. Resolved Eldrazi Displacer with enough mana to double blink is awesome. Great effect all night, in fact. Linvala was very handy. turns out if they puke out 3 Ornithopters on turn 1 and 2 Signal Pest on turn 2, it is still hard to beat them without wraths because that is a lot of flying damage each turn. I also drew no creatures for 4 turns.
I feel like the deck wants something big with general utility to cast, like Karn Liberated as a 1-of main, but maybe that was the side effect of not having Smuggler's Copter because I had no draw and little airborne interaction.
Crucible of Worlds is definitely becoming something else.
I have not seen THC aka Mary Jane, in a single game yet.
Mana still feels odd, but that might be inevitable. The lack of R to ever cast Simian Spirit Guide was obvious, though it only hurt me once. The need to burst pushes against the desire to go big eventually. We could still do Tron lands, but then you lose potential for those explosive beginnings.
Still contemplating my 3 flex slots in the main:
Linvala
Spellskite
Blade Splicer
1 will definitely become a Copter
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Aven is certainly a possibility as it would especially help in the Valakut MU (even if they often still find a land in their top 4 cards I have found).
I don't think that this deck is missing top end. 4 TKS, 4 Smasher and 4 Displacer is enough IMO. If anything I would try to smooth out the curve as much as possible (also one of the reasons I'm hesitant about a 4 mana flyer).
I have tried Blade Splicer a fair amount and I think it is not great in this deck. Missing Flickerwisp and Resto is real. I always thought the interaction with Displacer would be super strong but in reality it doesn't come up and if you have two creatures and excessive mana for Displacer you are winning anyway (win more combo). I have since changed it to Matter Reshaper which fills the same role but works better in this deck. Also since the meta shifted away from dredge and more to big Goyfs/Death Shadow and Eldrazi, a 3/3 is just not that impressive while Reshaper still blocks and cycles into another card.
Linvala seems pretty good against Eldrazi Tron in general and Walking Ballista particularly as you pointed out.
I have recently steered away form vehicles and opted for "max-impact" type cards (which just means two more Reshaper). Generally Vehicles are good in creature MUs or against Wrath of God but are not what you want against either combo or control. This is the list I went 5-0 with yesterday. (I do still like both Copter and Harvester though, just wanted to try a different route)
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Plains
2 Battlefield Forge
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
4 Path to exile
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Worship
1 Engineered Explosives
Lately I have found the mana to work out quite nicely actually. I don't think Tron lands are possible. As you said you really want these explosive starts.
Sideboard remains tough. Dropping a Stony Silence feels rough, even going to 4 PtE + 1 DiS. It does make your EE better. Here is mine ATM:
Definitely boosting against Bant Eldrazi, any CoCo.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Overall, the match isn't bad though it is the one that punishes us for not having a main deck Wastes.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I can definitely see Aven Mindcensor. Personally I will pursue the Reshaper direction a bit further to get max value of Eldrazi Temple (one of the more broken cards in Modern from a pure power level standpoint). Interested to hear how it plays out for you though if you go this direction.
This deck is some sort of aggro Stax / aggro lockout strategy I would say. Eldrazi and Staxes would probably have been the better name for it or even white Eldrazi as the vintage version.
You play Grafdigger's over RIP for CoCo and Chord basically or am I missing something else?
@G_g53
Yeah I have found Canopies to be pretty great. I would recommend some numbers of them.
Good point about Matter Reshaper and Wastes. Blood Moon can randomly get you but at least online I have not run played against it that often. I still think that if we play Wastes it should be in the Main not the SB. SB slots are too valuable.
Purge gets sided in quite often. I bring it in against Jund, Abzan, Death Shadow, Burn, Dredge, UR Gifts storm (Electromancer and for their Sb Blood Moon), Sun and Moon, Skred Red, (maybe Grishoalbrand and 8Rack) and some random others. That's quite a big part of the meta. And it gives you an angle of attack / versatility that not many other cards give you. And it gets around Chalice.
I have often thought about a Disenchant effect. Mostly for Ensnaring Bridge. I could definitely see one in the board (or just an additional Ratchet Bomb), but I always used the slots for other cards.
I think if EE gets reliably to two that's good enough to be worth its inclusion. If not then Ratchet Bomb will probably be next best.
Grafdigger's Cage for CoCo and Chord for sure, which hits Abzan Company and Elves, but it also stops Dredge, Nahiri -8 in Sun and Moon and UWR Control decks and is usable against Snapcaster Mage decks, though not as good as RiP.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault
4 Plains
2 Battlefield Forge
Creatures 28
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
3 Path to exile
3 Stony Silence
2 Hushwing Gryff
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Celestial Purge
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Worship
The main deck did most of the work, by far. A RiP gave me an edge against UWR Control game 3, but none of my other sideboard cards mattered very much. Kind of want Path to Exile to be Blessed Alliance, but I think that is worse in the Bant Eldrazi match. I just hate having Chalice and PtE in at the same time. If there was a 2 mana instant exile spell, I might play it, but I think everything is either edict effect or sorcery speed.
Given the matches the sideboard are for, I don't feel like I was ever at a loss for value in the main tonight. Loving the deck, despite the lack of deck manipulation. Got to do turn 2 Reality Smasher.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
What exactly are you referring to?
I think that Blessed Alliance is definitely a valid option. Against Bant Eldrazi it is great against Smasher and poor against Displacer (which becomes one of the best cards as the game goes long). It's also decent against Bant Spirits (which is probably the worst MU for this deck) and Death Shadow.
I think some Path to exiles are absolutely necessary but I could see the 4th (or maybe even 3rd) become other removal spells. But there are just many MU where Path is great.
The only time where Path and Chalice is annoying is against Bant Eldrazi (if Chalice stays in after SB), Abzan and Death Shadow but it can come up from time to time.
Edit: What I have found:
Inquisitor's Snare
Immolating Glare
Purge
Reprisal
They seem all kind of bad though. The best of them being Reprisal I would say. Good against BGx (including Death Shadow) and Eldrazi Variants. Journey to nowhere seems better at 2 cmc. Maybe it is the better choice than declaration in stone.
For Death's Shadow, I really like having 2 Celestial Purge because it also deals with Liliana. In a way, I am least concerned with Tarmogoyf, since I am siding in 2 RiP, 2 Purge, 1 Declaration in Stone. I don't feel the need for PtE there.
So thinking about sideboarding in general if I look at my sideboard, here is how it shapes up (please add decks I have missed and correct any mistakes you see):
Path to exile: Abzan Company, Bant Eldrazi, Titan.dec, Tron, Reanimator, Infect, Eldrazi Tron,
Stony Silence: Tron, Lantern Control, Affinity, Cheerios, Ad Nauseum
Hushwing Gryff: Abzan, Abzan Company, UWR Midrange, Bant Eldrazi, any and all DnT/Hatebears, Merfolk, Spirits, Titan.dec,
Rest in Peace: Dredge, Grixis/UWR Control, Death's Shadow, Jund, Abzan Company, Reanimator
Grafdigger's Cage: Abzan Company, Dredge, Bant Spirits, Reanimator
Celestial Purge: Jund, Death's Shadow, Sun and Moon, Abzan, Reanimator, Grixis Control/Young Pyro,
Declaration in Stone: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect
Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Bant Eldrazi, Jund, Eldrazi Tron
Worship: Jund, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, all DnT, Abzan Company, Abzan
So if I look at my sideboard, I have to say that I feel that 2 Hushwing Gryff in the side and a 1-of Linvala, Keeper of Silence main change my math a bit.
Linvala shuts down the opponent's mana dorks, Eldrazi Displacer, Drowner of Hope, Scavenging Ooze, Kiki-Jiki, Wall of Roots, Spellskite, Pia Nalaar, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer, Selfless Spirit, Walking Ballista, and Viscera Seer.
Gryff shuts off Snapcaster Mage, Restoration Angel, Kitchen Finks, Eldrazi Skyspawner, Orzhov Pontiff, Eternal Witness, Murderous Redcap, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, Drowner of Hope, Siege Rhino, Renegade Rallier, Primeval Titan, Pia Nalaar, Thought-Knot Seer, most important Spirits, Prized Amalgam, Scourge Devil, Flickerwisp, Tidehollow Sculler, Blade Splicer, wasteland Strangler and Reclamation Sage.
If we can shut down opponents' activated abilities and all creature-initiated ETB triggers, I feel like Path to Exile becomes less crucial and Gryff actually works very well with Chalice of the Void on 1 since it both shuts off most relevant removal in Modern and hurts our worst matches far more than us.
This is why I am trying to think about what can replace PtE with if it is less critical, since our goal now is to shut off our opponent rather than rely primarily on removal, removal that is a 1-off effect that frequently gives them more mana.
For example, with Abzan Company, I have hate for Chord (4 Arbiter, 2 Mindcensor), ETB creature effects (2 Gryff), return from the graveyard effects (1 Cage, 2 RiP), Company (1 Cage), and creature activated abilities (1 Linvala), so do I feel the need for Path at this point, esp since path is the weaker play than Gryff around the combo and I want to use Chalice on 1?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@redtwister:
Path: what you said and additionally against: DnT, Merfolk, Bant Spirits, Jund, Abzan, Death Shadow, Cheeri0s, Ur Giftsstorm, Affinity, Dredge, Sun and Moon (because we have not enough to bring in - helps against Blood Moon and kills Gideon), maybe Goryos.dec. I'm not sure if I want it against Valakut. A resolved Titan will generate enough value with Valakuts to win the game most of the time. And against their Obstinant Baloth type creatures I prefer Dismember to not ramp them.
Stony: additionally against Eldrazi Tron (Ballista, Mindstone, Map, Basilisk Collar)
Hushwing: I would not bring it in against regular Abzan (Lingering Souls makes you cry and the only creature it hits is Siege Rhino)
RiP: and Esper Control and regular Abzan and Ur Gifts storm
Grafdigger: agree
Purge: and against burn: out: dismember in: Worship, Purge, EE
Declaration in Stone: I wouldn't against Grixis control. For 3 Tasigur you have 4 Displacer and Purge if you bring it in and Dismember. That's enough. Plan A against Tasigur is RiP.
Elspeth: and Abzan and Grixis and UWx Control, maybe Merfolk for the sweeper effect,
Worship: I probably wouldn't against Jund, they have so much removal and can win with Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse. I'm not sure about Eldrazi Tron either as they have all is Dust, Ulamog, Karn, Walking Ballista and Endbringer - Basilisk Collar combo. But I would additonally against Death Shadow, Merfolk, Spirits, Burn, Amulet Titan, Ur Gifts Storm.
I think Hushwing helps against other Eldrazi decks, Abzan Company and Valakut decks mostly. But I don't think it has the capabilites to make Path obsolete as I bring in Path against a wide range of decks (as shown above). I also play only online where Abzan Company is not really a thing, (neither is UWr Midrange) so the Meta can be a bit different than in real life.
Thanks for all the input!
With Merfolk, Affinity, Jund, Dredge and Death's Shadow, I think I prefer Declaration in Stone to Path to Exile in this deck because we are really a tap-out deck. It's not like we are often able to leave up mana if we have creatures to play, so I am ok going in on 3 mana to not only exile something, but to potentially hit 2+ creatures. All of those decks love to have 2 or more of the same creature out, so the 2-for-1 seems worth having to have 2 mana to cast it.
On UR Giftsstorm, DnT, Infect and Bant Spirits, yeah, I think we will miss instant speed at cmc 1. Maybe I will end up with it again. I was the only Spirits player at my locals and the deck is not that common, since i think it is still one more good Spirit from being outstanding. Only 3 people who played Merfolk at my locals, but 1 rarely shows and the other went Lantern control (and I was the 3rd, since I like decks like Spirits and Merfolk, and the only thing I like more are creature prison decks!) No one is playing Infect right now, though I suspect that will change, and Dredge has dropped off considerably as well. That pretty much leaves Affinity and Death's Shadow and that still makes me want DiS. I'll keep testing and let you know.
On PrimeTime, yeah, that resolved seems nearly unbeatable, though I did get through one yesterday. It was the second one that killed me
Good catch on Purge, I used it yesterday against Bun and forgot! Also, agreed on Purge vs. Grixis.
And thanks for the thoughts on using Worship, I have probably been using it non-optimally.
Hushwing Gryff is a nightmare for DnT, especially if we have Chalice of the Void on 1. Blanks their deck hard, which is why DnT has never had a spot for it. I used to use it in my GW Hatebears deck and it would be game-over for DnT decks. Great against Spirits because the deck is almost all ETB: Spell Queller, Mausoleum Wanderer's +1/+1 triggers, Nebelgast Herald, and Rattlechains. Also makes Meerow Reejeray, Silvergill Adept, Harbinger of the Tides and Vendilion Clique fail in Merfolk.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
It's easier to tap out for another creature and a removal spell if the removal costs one instead of two. T3 you could go Arbiter and Path, T4 Reshapher and Path etc. which is not possible with Declaration. It's easier to have explosive openings, and smooth turns in general, if your curve is as low as possible.
Keep in mind that Declaration is never a two for one. They get two clues if you exile two creatures. So against Jund it's quite miserable to let them basically cycle their creature while you are down a card. It seems great against Death Shadow though (we leave in Chalice and they only have two different creatures, are tight on mana and tend to have many dead draws lategame especially if we have a Chalice or RiP out.)
(The token aspect could come up from time to time. I won against Storm by exiling all the empty the warrens tokens with Declaration).
I think 2-4 Path is a must. But I could see some combination of 2cmc removal spells in addition (Celestial Purge, Valorous Stance, Declaration in Stone, Journey to nowhere, Blessed Alliance). If they prove to be good we could maybe go as low as 2 Path. Atm I play about 6-8 of these kind of cards.
On Worship: I forgot to mention Affinity and Dredge. It's good against them as well.
You are definitely right on Huswhing - it's good against DnT.
@G_g53
I don't think that one is good enough. Without Temple it's just too expensive. And as you said the tribal aspect is a thing as well.
Haven't been able to play and been in the discussion as much. Currently sitting at 83-47 now in MTGO Leagues & 2-Man Queues (.638 win rate) so have been regressing to a mean somewhat from the days when I think I was sitting at 70% win rate. I've bumped the Spellskites due to the changing meta in favor for the Matter Reshapers and Aven Mindcensor as redtwister suggested. Still doing great against Eldrazi - 12-1 right now, but pretty much auto-losing to every wide creature based strategy. I think shucking up the cash for 2nd and 3rd Horizon Canopies and Cavern of Souls as well as the 4th Chalice of the Void may be necessary.
Current Build:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/eldrazi-staxes/
Stabilo, you've probably already figured out a lot of these but you asked these a while ago and didn't want to leave you hanging:
Q: How do you SB against Bant Eldrazi? Chalice yes or no?
A: Yes. Shut off Nobles, Ancient Stirrings, Paths, totally keep them in.
Q: How is Smuggler's Copter for you?
A: Ehhh. By the time you guys started talking about Aven Mindcensor and Matter Reshapers, I was more than ready to trade Copter out for either of those 2.
Q: How is EE?
A: Sounded like you figured this out already but yeah an EE that can realistically only go up to 2 most of the time is more than sufficient to be sideboard-worthy at least for me. I'm glad it's in there and plan to keep it as well.
What are the 'go wide' strategies you are having issues with? Stuff like Merfolk and Spirits? Hatebears/DnT?
Anyone else feel Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a bit meh? It loses steam if I can't play it turn 3 or 4 quite often, and only having two hasn't been great. Maybe am not doing it right?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Yes, exactly that. Merfolk, Spirits, Hatebears/D&T, Elves, the whole lot. Affinity is also not a great matchup though Stony Silence is obviously great. The Abzan/Creature Toolbox Combos are also terrible for me as well.
Death's Shadow I've only played once and lost but I feel like Chalice should put in great work there...we'll see.
I only run one THalia, Heretic Cathar...she doesn't come up too often and if she's not useful, easy to side out.
-Eldrazi Aggro
-Zoo (the new HIdden Herbalist/Voltaic Brawler versions are a bit tougher than before, but have still managed to win 100% of the matches)
-Red Deck Wins/Burn
-Goblins
-Soul Sisters
The bad creature-based matchups are the following for me:
-Merfolk
-Elves
-Faeries
-Tokens
-Spirits
-Creature Toolbox/Abzan Chord
-D&T
-Affinity (3-5, it's shaky, but definitely winnable)
The highly synergized, value-based, and interactive decks appear to be tougher for us, but other than that, it's hard for me to pinpoint what makes some of these matchups just so dang unwinnable, but obviously siding in all removal from the board has become a no-brainer. Looking at how Eldrazi White is now starting to pop up in Legacy now, I feel like Stoneforge Mystic would literally push this deck right into Tier 1 overnight, but alas, that'll probably never happen.
I generally do like big Thalia. She gives you a special kind of interaction that other cards can not offer. I have found her to be at her best in a race type situation against something like Bant Eldrazi. I think she is good against big mana decks and against Combo of all kind as she can easily prolong the game for one or two critical turns. I don't like her against grindy decks though (BGx for example) and side her out in these MUs.
I don't think she's fantastic but I've been ok with her. But I would certainly not fault anybody for replacing her - she is not as important as Arbiter for example.
@bmchu168
Thanks for your report.
Lately I have found Merfolk to be quite winnable (won the last 4 matches against them) and I'm even against DnT as well. Spirits seems to be the worst MU.
Death Shadow is in our favor I would say but it is just a very good and powerful deck so all the games can swing either way.
Maybe try a second Worship in your SB. This one is tailor-made against go wide aggro.
(Today is the B&R announcement; go sfm!)
I also recently won a couple more D&T matches... Mostly against the mono white version with thraben inspectors. I would agree this version is easier to deal with. Do you sideboard in Stony Silence against Merfolk and D&T? I generally don't but have recently which I think helped me win my recent marches against d&t.
Ok now moving on to very low probability hypotheticals, if sfm got unbanned, what would we do about arbiter? What kind of split would you guys go to?
@bmchu168
I would not side in Stony just for Aether Vial.
Look at the different scenarios:
1. They open with Vial and you have Stony. You trade a card and your second turn for one of their cards but only one of their mana. Best case scenario but not even great.
(if they have multiple Vials Stony doesn't get much better since multiple Vials are kind of redundant)
2. They open with Vial and you topdeck Stony later in the game. - Stony is a dead card.
3. They don't open with Vial but you have Stony. - Stony is a dead card.
They only have about 40% chance to have an opener with Vial. Even though Vial opens you up to some nasty things, especially against BW EnT, I don't think it's worth it to bring them in.
Found this cool list and decided to take a look in comparison to this deck.
This is how I would classify the MUs:
Seems to be quite positive to me overall.