a.k.a. The Beauty (Thalia) and the Beast (TKS) a.k.a. Thalia Stompy
This deck is a mixture between Eldrazi Stompy and Death and Taxes.
Eldrazi Stompy used to dominate Modern until Eye of Ugin got banned after Eldrazi Winter but still remained a Tier 1 deck in Legacy. Death and Taxes is one of the big players in Legacy as well and exists in Modern even if it certainly isn’t Tier 1 there.
The first version of this deck has been played in Vintage under the name „White Eldrazi“ where it put up some good results. The idea then got ported to Legacy where it is called „Thalia Stompy“. While it didn’t win any big tournaments yet (at least to my knowledge), the results of the people playing this deck have been quite promising. You will find the respective thread on mtgthesource.
This is now the attempt to make it happen in Modern.
This deck is half Eldrazi Stompy and half Death and Taxes and its principal gameplan is to power out early disruptive cards to let your opponent stumble for long enough to finish the game.
During Eldrazi Winter the power of Thought-Knot Seer , Chalice of the void and fast mana has been showed very clearly. This deck proved to be too fast for Modern and one of its key accelerants has been removed ( Eye of Ugin ). Without it the deck got too slow and inconsistent for an aggro deck and people stopped playing it.
This version tries to make up for the lost speed by having more disruptive creatures than Eldrazi Stompy used to have and therefore forcing your opponent to play an even slower game. This is possible thanks to the disruptive creatures white offers, namely Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter and Thalia, Heretic Cathar.
In Modern these so called hatebears are less backbreaking than in Legacy where Thalia can shut down whole decks but are still strong. The earlier you play them, the bigger their effect on the opponent. This is especially true for Leonin Arbiter . In this deck they can get played on turn one where it can single-handedly lock an opponent out of the game. There is a world of difference between a turn one or a turn two Arbiter.
Additionally the white splash offers some amazing sideboard cards that the colorless version is missing.
From the Eldrazi part of the deck we are only using the best ones, namely Thought-Knot Seer , Reality Smasher and Eldrazi Displacer . All of this cards are big threats with unique abilities that put your opponent in a tough spot.
The last lock piece is Chalice of the Void which can be completely devastating against certain decks but also helps protecting your creatures against pesky removal spells.
Note: (I did create a new thread for this deck as I think it is missing enough core cards from DnT to not be posted there. Additionally the DnT thread is already torn between many different directions so I don’t want it to end all over the place)
You always want to see some combination of these cards in your opener. If you don’t have them you should mulligan aggressively. If you don’t have any kind of acceleration and a threat to accelcerate into or the perfect curve of hatecards you ship it.
This deck doesn’t come back from behind very well (besides Smasher) so having a good explosive start is crucial.
Very good card. The earlier you play it the better. One of the backbones of this deck. Without it this deck can not exist. The mixture of his well-sized body and his Thoughtseize effect makes him really strong.
Good Finisher thats tough to deal with. Doesn’t die to Bolt or Push and is still a two for one against path (if you don’t have chalice out). After starting your game with some disruptive elements this guy finishes a stumbling opponent off very quickly.
Haste is great at finishing off Planeswalkers like Liliana.
Protects your creatures from removal, taps blockers or opposing attackers, can soft-lock someone with TKS and dominates the lategame if you have excessive mana. The card you play after all your Taxers (Thalias, Arbiter, TKS) because it doesn’t have an immediate impact on the opponent. This deck is removal light (partially due to the constraints of Chalice of the Void) so having additional removal effects is very important.
Annoying disruptive two drop that comes with a good body. First strike is surprisingly relevant against creature strategies (and pairs well with big Thalia on defense) and the taxing effect is fantastic against spell based decks. Even though these kind of cards may not look fantastic on the first sight they can actually be very good. And they stack very well. A single Thalia won’t win you the game like a Tarmogoyf does but in combination with Arbiter and Ghost Quarter these effects add up. The more of these creatures you play the more you can prevent your opponent from executing his gameplan.
Mostly there to hate on fetchlands but also works great with your Ghost Quarter or against an occasional Scapeshift etc. This guy is a great turn one play and can win you the game on the spot. It gets better in multiples and/or in combination with Thalia(s).
Big Thalia. The earlier you play this the more tempo it generates for you. Fetchlands come into play tapped, and then they have to fetch for basics to not have their land come into play tapped again. (If they fetch for too many basics your Ghost Quarters can turn into Stripmine as soon as they run out of Basics.)
It also makes it harder for them to stabilize with creatures as they come into play tapped as well. One more piece to the disrupting puzzle.
Fantastic against a wide variety of decks. Can win you the game on the spot. The earlier you play it the better it gets. Most removal in Modern costs one mana. Especially with the printing of Fatal Push partially replacing Terminate. Chalice on one can be great as creature protection. This and Arbiter are your highest upside turn one plays.
Every deck needs some removal. This one gets around chalice while only costing one mana and gets rid of almost every creature played in Modern. The lifeloss (especially in conjunction with some of the lands) is definitely real though. You don't want to see two in one game so only a three of.
Seems odd at first but gives your creatures evasion which comes in handy and your taxers some kind of pseudo-haste. It gives them the ability to tax while still getting damage through even if an opponent has a stable ground (for example a big Tarmogoyf).
The looting is very relevant as well. Almost half of this deck is mana so looting away excessive lands or hate pieces is great. Definitely one of the flex spots of the deck. It has to bee looked at like an equipment and not a creature. It’s great against Wraths as well as it only is a creature on your turn.
Protects your creatures and occasionally interferes with opposing decks like Infect. Works exceptionally well with Eldrazi Displacer. Protects your Sideboard Enchantments and your Chalices. Is a flex spot though.
Mini Baneslayer could prove to be good enough. Helps racing and make up for the lifeloss of Dismember and the lands. His body works great against Delver, Flickerwisp, Vendilion Clique, Restoration Angel... (basically all fliers played in Modern) I’m currently testing a one-off.
One more flex spot. Blade Splicer is a solid card all around. Nothing too flashy but serves many roles. It’s great against Liliana, it can go absolutely nuts with Eldrazi Displacer, first strike works well with Thalias on defense and the vehicle crewing works nice with the two bodies.
Fast mana. Not much to be said here. Absolutely crucial for the deck. Allows for your busted starts. Between this, Gemstone Caverns and Eldrazi Temple you will quite consistently be able to power out your guys ahead of curve.
Fast mana on the draw. This card is actually really good and somewhat underplayed in Modern in general IMO. Gives you much needed acceleration on the draw.
Definitely one of the flex spots. It helps against big mana decks, 3 color midrange and manlands. Could be Blinkmoth nexus / additional white source or some other value land.
Contrary to popular belief you don’t have to be GW to play this card! This land is really strong. The deck is susceptible to flooding out, so some numbers of Canopies help. Be aware of the lifeloss.
Painless multicolor land. The color requirement of this deck isn’t huge so even one shot of colored mana might be enough. Additionally to white this gives you red for SSG, blue for Spellskite and black for Dismember.
Additional white source that occasionally provides a small advantage. Lets Big Thalia live through Bolt and little Thalia through K Command. It is pretty rare though to actually matter. If you play in a Blood Moon heavy meta just play Plains instead.
If control becomes a big player in the meta it might be worth the inclusion. You have three creature types between Arbiter, Thalias and Eldrazis. Just keep in mind that your SB cards require many white sources.
Every deck needs some basics and this one is no exception.
You only need one Wastes as you will have enough incremental colorless sources. If you play against a Blood Moon deck keep in mind that you can search for basics with Ghost Quarter.
Sideboard White offers some fantastic sideboard cards that can win you the game on the spot.
Best card against all sorts of graveyard strategies. Bring it in against Dredge, Grishoalbrand, Jund, Abzan, Grixis, Jeskai, living end, Thopter combo etc.
Go wide creature based aggro synergy decks life Merfolk are a rather bad MU. Many decks don’t have an answer to this card. You can win a locked down game by milling the OP with Displacer and TKS while always taking their best card. Bring it in against Merfolk, Death and Taxes, other Eldrazi builds, Affinity etc.
This deck runs 29 mana sources so it is quite possible to cast this card early on. Additionally it often comes in against Path to exile decks which help you ramp into it.
Bring it in against all sorts of slower decks. Midrange and Control. Once Elspeth resolves its very hard to loose the game. But 6 mana is still expensive. Maybe Gideon is where you want to be.
Much needed additional removal. Doesn’t work well with Chalice but you will find yourself in one of the three following situations:
1. It comes in in games where chalice comes out (for example Jund, Merfolk, DnT, various Bant decks like Knightfall or Eldrazi etc.)
2. or where you don’t put Chalice on one (for example Affinity, Cheeri0s etc.)
3. or where you don’t care about your one dead card if you shut down the whole opposing deck (for example infect)
So it is actually quite alright.
Path to exile / Disenchant fusion. This card looks narrow but is actually quite versatile. Gets rid of most modern played Enchantments and Planeswalkers (Bitterblossom, Jeskay ascendancy, Pyromancers Ascension, Blood Moon, Liliana, Chandra, Koth, Sorin, etc...)
And exiles Tasigurs, Dark Confidants, Grim Flayers, Huntmaster etc.
Bring it in against BGx, Blood Moon.deck, Burn and various others.
Additional removal for aggro decks like burn or affinity. Counters important sorceries like Scapeshift, Rift Bolt etc. In the SB for its versatility rather than its raw power. Bring it in against small creature decks like DnT, Affinity, Elves etc., Burn, and Scapeshift variants.
Source of lifegain. Deathtouch works well with your small creatures to stay relevant in the lategame (Especially great with First Striking Thalias). Lifelink works well with your big Eldrazis to win you a race.
Planeswalkers: Nahiri, the Harbinger: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Abzan Mid Elspeth, Sun's champion: UW Control, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Jund, Abzan Mid-range Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
OUT: Leonin Arbiter: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Affinity, Dredge, 8Whack, Abzan Mid Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo(?), Death's Shadow Aggro, Affinity, Elves, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Bant Eldrazi, 8Whack, Matter Reshaper: Ad Nauseam, Affinity, Elves, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Storm, UWr Kiki Control Chalice of the Void: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo, Bant Eldrazi, Tron (on the draw), Scapeshift, Amulet Titan (on the draw), Sun and Moon, Jund, Abzan Mid (on the draw) Dismember: UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Dredge, Reanimator, Burn, 8Whack, 8 Rack Gemstone Caverns: take out a Gemstone against (slower) decks on the play when you need the space in the deck. Otherwise leave it in.[/quote]
I tried to keep it simple and general as this deck is still very young. It’s more of an overview.
Favorable: Unfair Combo decks: Ad Nauseam, Infect, Cheerios, Amulet Titan, regular Tron etc.
Between Thalia, Chalice, Arbiter and land destruction your Maindeck consists of Sideboard cards against these kind of decks. Post board it gets even better with Stony Silence.
More or less even:
BGx (Bring in RIP, Elspeth, Removal, Celestial Purge etc. Take out bad topdecks like SSG and Chalice and some number of Hatebears),
Control.deck, (Bring in RIP and Elspeth take out removal and vehicles against K command decks)
Valakut.deck, (Don’t have many SB options, Warping Wail and Surgical Extraction if you have them. Change Dismember for Path. Board out chalice.) Try to play around Anger of the Gods.
Burn (mull for early TKS and Chalice. Thalia and Arbiter are good. Take out Displacer, Dismember and random lategame value cards like Smuggler’s Copters)
Unfavorable: Decks that don’t care about Thalia, Arbiter or Chalice:
Eldrazi Tron, Abzan Company, Sun and Moon and Merfolk style decks.
This deck feels very powerful to me. You have to play it aggressively and mulligan for explosive early threats. It is important to identifiy against which deck you are playing on turn one to play your respective hatecard. Be aware of your role in the MU. You are often the aggressor against decks that have inevitability like Tron, Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam etc. but you can also be the controller against midrange decks if you look at an Eldrazi heavy hand (Smasher and Displacer). Smasher allows you to change from defense to offense very quickly. Be aware of these kind of situations.
It also has to be said that this deck is not the most consistent deck in Modern. You are going to mulligan more than with some other decks and sometimes it just doesn't come together. But for me it has worked surprisingly well in general.
Do you open with Thalia or Arbiter (on Turn 1)?
That's difficult to generalize. The on the play T1 Arbiter has a higher upside than Thalia as you can lock an opponent completely out if he is on fetches only. So without information about the MU I would go for him on the play. On the draw you should already know what your opponent is on. For example against Ad Nauseam I would go for Thalia (if they have a scry land T2 then they can't use a cantrip). If you have two Thalias and one or more Arbiter I would probably open with her as you are more ok trading her for removal because of the legend rule. If you have a Ghostquarter in hand and you are ok using it on the next turn I would open with Thalia and then follow it up with Arbiter into GQ to have a higher chance of him surviving to this point. If they open with a tapped land in removal-light colors I would go with Arbiter (For example against Grixis control if they open with Creeping Tarpit I would go with Arbiter because if they only have fetches besides Creeping Tarpit (and no Fatal Push) then you have won the game right there.) So it depends on the MU and the rest of your hand.
Your opener should be powerful in one way or another. Do not keep a mediocre seven. Your first few turns should be clear and proactive.
I played a lot of Death and Taxes in Modern and tried to fix the holes in the deck that stood out to me.
1. Your hatebears are fragile. There is a ton of removal in Modern so you want to protect your hatecards. I tried Spellskite and Selfless Spirit and while they aren’t bad they often trade one for one with a removal spell. This deck plays Chalice of the void instead which is actually the best creature protection card (while also sometimes shutting down entire decks.. ) .
2. Your hatebears are too slow, especially on the draw. This deck plays 7 ways to accelerate you into them on the draw.
Sample situation: You are on the draw with DnT and you play Spellskite (to protect your hatebear) on T2 and follow it up with Arbiter on T3. At this point it is too late for Arbiter to have a big impact and your Spellskite doesn’t actually impact the board either. So even though you actually had your cards on curve it is not good enough.
This deck can go Gemstone Caverns into T1 Chalice into T2 Arbiter. This opening is just much stronger and will often win you the game.
3. You have more removal with Eldrazi Displacer without having to play Reflector Mage or even Fiend Hunter.
4. You have a better late game with Smasher. Additionally the haste is very important and great against Planeswalkers.
(Unfortunately you can’t play Flickerwisp or Aether Vial which is a big loss.)
Compared with Eldrazi Stompy you are more disruptive and controlling and less aggressive and less value oriented. So it is a different style of play. And you can play actually good Sideboard cards.
At the moment I’m still trying to find the perfect cards for the aforementioned flex spots and am tuning the deck. Especially the manabase is definitely not set in stone. It might be that 4 Horiozon Canopies is where you want to be. It is also quite likely that Aether Hub doesn’t provide you with white consistently enough. Well, testing will show.
At the moment I’m 35-15 in matches (which is a very small sample size!) in competitive leagues (70% win) since my very first time playing the deck which I think is quite a good showing for a deck still in its early days (but maybe I did just have some lucky leagues.. - time will show).
Hi Stabil0, i fell in love with the deck as soon as i saw it and i think it seems good enough to compete in modern, especially against combo decks. I'll try to build it but the challices and canopys are really expensive for a student-level budget...
I believe that more canopies would be too dangerous in an agresive metagame, but in a world of combo and midrange they are fantastic, or at least that is my experience with that card in DnT. I dont know what to think of aether hub, as i have never played with it, but in paper it seems good, especially with Harvester.
In the sideboard, isn't that elspeth too expensive? maybe Elspeth, knight-errant (an 8/8 flying smasher seems SCARY) or Gideon, ally of Zendikar are better in that slot.
To be honest, it feels like a gimped Death and Taxes. And wins through the Eldrazi like normal. That said, I can see where Chalice helps in some matchups. But at the same token, why not just jam 4 chalices in the side and play with Vial?
@Darkcrawle You can always just start with regular DnT or EnT and wait on Chalice and then if this deck continues to have success buy them later.
I agree with you on Canopies. Compared to regular DnT this version is more all in and tries to lock the opponent out even more - so the game is going to be determined earlier against aggro than with regular DnT (in one way or the other). This means that you are going to take a little less damage than with DnT because the game will be shorter. But this deck also plays Dismember and has no Vial... I'm testing 3 Canopies atm - if it proves to be too much I will reduce this number.
Elspeth might be too expensive, you are right. Especially with more Canopies you might want to go for a cheaper alternative.
@Underused Cards It is possible that DnT proves to be the better version of it. Personally I had much more success with this list than with any kind of "regular" DnT I played until now. But this might just be me playing against the right MUs or drawing hot. I have played 11 leagues with it now.
You can't play with Vial as the mana curve is too diverse and because Vial is too slow for what this deck is trying to do. If you look at a DnT list you will note the many three drops it plays to take max advantage of Vial - this one has a different curve. You play less three drops but you want to go up to 5 for Smasher.
Your goal is to power out your lock pieces ahead of curve and not to play them one turn after normal curve. This deck also does not play Flickerwisp, Vials best friend.
To be honest, it feels like a gimped Death and Taxes. And wins through the Eldrazi like normal. That said, I can see where Chalice helps in some matchups. But at the same token, why not just jam 4 chalices in the side and play with Vial?
I actually think the better question is "why play white at all?"
The best lockdown decks in Modern are red, and they play 4-8 copies of Mooneffects in the maindeck. This build already runs maindeck SSG and Gemstone Caverns; cutting white entirely and playing red instead is just common sense. Plus you'd get access to betterremoval.
With white in the deck, the deck is just hurting itself.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
To be honest, it feels like a gimped Death and Taxes. And wins through the Eldrazi like normal. That said, I can see where Chalice helps in some matchups. But at the same token, why not just jam 4 chalices in the side and play with Vial?
I actually think the better question is "why play white at all?"
The best lockdown decks in Modern are red, and they play 4-8 copies of Mooneffects in the maindeck. This build already runs maindeck SSG and Gemstone Caverns; cutting white entirely and playing red instead is just common sense. Plus you'd get access to betterremoval.
With white in the deck, the deck is just hurting itself.
This is not entirely true. While Moon effects are powerful, they don't seem to be outright game winning in modern (maybe in some specific MUs). Like in the eternal formats, mana acceleration + Chalice + Taxing (especially Thalias) is more effective than just dropping a Moon and hoping to win from there. Playing Moon forces to play a high number of Wastes which is not ideal, Magus is way too fragile in modern to be an actual Moon if you don't have the enchantment. Also, Bolt + Chalice don't get along (the reason why path is on the board), anger is only good against Dredge and little critters decks like regular DnT or Abzan CoCo (which is a deck that's falling out of flavor), it's a lackluster card against most decks.
If you were to play mana accel into moons, you'd be just better off running Sun and Moon.dek rather than eldrazi cards, this deck has a different identity and a different game plan and it feels a lot stronger than dropping a Blood Moon and hoping to draw a game winning card to ride off while the opp is mana screwed.
My 2 cents on the subject.
EDIT:
I don't see the value on playing 4 Battlefield forges over 4 Cavern of Souls, other than casting the monkey which is as bad as not being able to cast it. I guess it could restrain you from casting Arbiter or Thalias in hand, but I believe it could be a great asset for the deck, especially in cases where you need to resolve a TKS/Smasher vs Control or set a Chalice on 2 and want to ignore it with your 2drops.
To be honest, it feels like a gimped Death and Taxes. And wins through the Eldrazi like normal. That said, I can see where Chalice helps in some matchups. But at the same token, why not just jam 4 chalices in the side and play with Vial?
I actually think the better question is "why play white at all?"
The best lockdown decks in Modern are red, and they play 4-8 copies of Mooneffects in the maindeck. This build already runs maindeck SSG and Gemstone Caverns; cutting white entirely and playing red instead is just common sense. Plus you'd get access to betterremoval.
With white in the deck, the deck is just hurting itself.
This is not entirely true. While Moon effects are powerful, they don't seem to be outright game winning in modern (maybe in some specific MUs). Like in the eternal formats, mana acceleration + Chalice + Taxing (especially Thalias) is more effective than just dropping a Moon and hoping to win from there. Playing Moon forces to play a high number of Wastes which is not ideal, Magus is way too fragile in modern to be an actual Moon if you don't have the enchantment. Also, Bolt + Chalice don't get along (the reason why path is on the board), anger is only good against Dredge and little critters decks like regular DnT or Abzan CoCo (which is a deck that's falling out of flavor), it's a lackluster card against most decks.
If you were to play mana accel into moons, you'd be just better off running Sun and Moon.dek rather than eldrazi cards, this deck has a different identity and a different game plan and it feels a lot stronger than dropping a Blood Moon and hoping to draw a game winning card to ride off while the opp is mana screwed.
My 2 cents on the subject.
I disagree strongly with this whole sentiment, and I bolded the most confusing part.
The question isn't "Is Blood Moon always effective?" The question is "Which is more effective at ending a game: Blood Moon or white taxes?" And the answer is obviously Blood Moon. Sure, Blood Moon is bad against Merfolk, Elves, Affinity, etc. But so are Thalia and Arbiter in those matchups. In all of the matchups where Blood Moon is good, Blood Moon more consistently locks opponents out of a game than Arbiter or Thalia. In fact, if "White Moon" were a card, a 2W enchantment that turned all nonbasic lands into Plains, I would instantly drop Arbiter from the D&T core.
Playing Wastes just turns this into a two color deck, which isn't a problem when the only things requiring colorless mana to cast are 4 CMC and higher.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
To be honest, it feels like a gimped Death and Taxes. And wins through the Eldrazi like normal. That said, I can see where Chalice helps in some matchups. But at the same token, why not just jam 4 chalices in the side and play with Vial?
I actually think the better question is "why play white at all?"
The best lockdown decks in Modern are red, and they play 4-8 copies of Mooneffects in the maindeck. This build already runs maindeck SSG and Gemstone Caverns; cutting white entirely and playing red instead is just common sense. Plus you'd get access to betterremoval.
With white in the deck, the deck is just hurting itself.
This is not entirely true. While Moon effects are powerful, they don't seem to be outright game winning in modern (maybe in some specific MUs). Like in the eternal formats, mana acceleration + Chalice + Taxing (especially Thalias) is more effective than just dropping a Moon and hoping to win from there. Playing Moon forces to play a high number of Wastes which is not ideal, Magus is way too fragile in modern to be an actual Moon if you don't have the enchantment. Also, Bolt + Chalice don't get along (the reason why path is on the board), anger is only good against Dredge and little critters decks like regular DnT or Abzan CoCo (which is a deck that's falling out of flavor), it's a lackluster card against most decks.
If you were to play mana accel into moons, you'd be just better off running Sun and Moon.dek rather than eldrazi cards, this deck has a different identity and a different game plan and it feels a lot stronger than dropping a Blood Moon and hoping to draw a game winning card to ride off while the opp is mana screwed.
My 2 cents on the subject.
I disagree strongly with this whole sentiment, and I bolded the most confusing part.
The question isn't "Is Blood Moon always effective?" The question is "Which is more effective at ending a game: Blood Moon or white taxes?" And the answer is obviously Blood Moon. Sure, Blood Moon is bad against Merfolk, Elves, Affinity, etc. But so are Thalia and Arbiter in those matchups. In all of the matchups where Blood Moon is good, Blood Moon more consistently locks opponents out of a game than Arbiter or Thalia. In fact, if "White Moon" were a card, a 2W enchantment that turned all nonbasic lands into Plains, I would instantly drop Arbiter from the D&T core.
Playing Wastes just turns this into a two color deck, which isn't a problem when the only things requiring colorless mana to cast are 4 CMC and higher.
I'm not sure Moon effects is what you want in a deck that have really 4-6 basics and tries to acelerate eldrazis + lock pieces into the game. First, Blood Moon will delay your eldrazi a couple of turns if you manage to draw the 4/5 lands naturally and it'll be fatal against decks that can pressure you even with blood moon in play. Second, when Blood Moon is bad is a really dead card, when thalia and arbiter are bad, they are creatures that block and attack in worst case scenario. Third, thalia and arbiter are 1 turn faster, and that is crucial to the gameplan of the deck, put a lock piece in game T1 is really important.
While Blood Moon is game against some decks of the metagame, thalia and arbiter are important in a lot more match ups, cost less mana, don't delay your biggest threats and can attack and block.
Have you ever considered something like heartless summoning in a drazi list? This obviously wouldn't work with thalia, but perhaps you could play something like lodestone golem instead?
To be honest, it feels like a gimped Death and Taxes. And wins through the Eldrazi like normal. That said, I can see where Chalice helps in some matchups. But at the same token, why not just jam 4 chalices in the side and play with Vial?
I actually think the better question is "why play white at all?"
The best lockdown decks in Modern are red, and they play 4-8 copies of Mooneffects in the maindeck. This build already runs maindeck SSG and Gemstone Caverns; cutting white entirely and playing red instead is just common sense. Plus you'd get access to betterremoval.
With white in the deck, the deck is just hurting itself.
This is not entirely true. While Moon effects are powerful, they don't seem to be outright game winning in modern (maybe in some specific MUs). Like in the eternal formats, mana acceleration + Chalice + Taxing (especially Thalias) is more effective than just dropping a Moon and hoping to win from there. Playing Moon forces to play a high number of Wastes which is not ideal, Magus is way too fragile in modern to be an actual Moon if you don't have the enchantment. Also, Bolt + Chalice don't get along (the reason why path is on the board), anger is only good against Dredge and little critters decks like regular DnT or Abzan CoCo (which is a deck that's falling out of flavor), it's a lackluster card against most decks.
If you were to play mana accel into moons, you'd be just better off running Sun and Moon.dek rather than eldrazi cards, this deck has a different identity and a different game plan and it feels a lot stronger than dropping a Blood Moon and hoping to draw a game winning card to ride off while the opp is mana screwed.
My 2 cents on the subject.
I disagree strongly with this whole sentiment, and I bolded the most confusing part.
The question isn't "Is Blood Moon always effective?" The question is "Which is more effective at ending a game: Blood Moon or white taxes?" And the answer is obviously Blood Moon. Sure, Blood Moon is bad against Merfolk, Elves, Affinity, etc. But so are Thalia and Arbiter in those matchups. In all of the matchups where Blood Moon is good, Blood Moon more consistently locks opponents out of a game than Arbiter or Thalia. In fact, if "White Moon" were a card, a 2W enchantment that turned all nonbasic lands into Plains, I would instantly drop Arbiter from the D&T core.
Playing Wastes just turns this into a two color deck, which isn't a problem when the only things requiring colorless mana to cast are 4 CMC and higher.
I'm not sure Moon effects is what you want in a deck that have really 4-6 basics and tries to acelerate eldrazis + lock pieces into the game. First, Blood Moon will delay your eldrazi a couple of turns if you manage to draw the 4/5 lands naturally and it'll be fatal against decks that can pressure you even with blood moon in play. Second, when Blood Moon is bad is a really dead card, when thalia and arbiter are bad, they are creatures that block and attack in worst case scenario. Third, thalia and arbiter are 1 turn faster, and that is crucial to the gameplan of the deck, put a lock piece in game T1 is really important.
While Blood Moon is game against some decks of the metagame, thalia and arbiter are important in a lot more match ups, cost less mana, don't delay your biggest threats and can attack and block.
Blood Moon I definitely agree with Darktutor and Darkcrawle here. Blood moon doesn't seem to fit this deck too well. Red doesn't offer too much besides Blood Moon and SB Bolt I think. Actually white is really good. T1 Hatebear is fantastic, Displacer works well with all the lands and Temples and the SB cards in white are stellar as well. Additionally it would shut down your own Temples.
You would also loose one of the fundamental strengths of DnT style decks - that your lockpieces can attack.
Cavern of souls Definitely a strong consideration. The upside is clearly higher as you can play past cryptic command etc. You brought up a good point in Chalice on two. I had akward moments with my hatebears. Cavern of Souls would help.
Even if it doesn't come up all that often I have won games with SSG beats.
What I like about Battlefield Forge is that it is very consistent. Even if the game goes long, meaning you will draw many different cardtypes and even creature types, you will be able to cast all your spells from it. This deck needs all the consistency it can get I think.
I'm worried about the SB cards too as they are non-creature spells but need white mana.
But cavern is the stronger card and has the higher upside. Maybe we could get away with a split between those two.
I'm probably starting with one und slowly add more if I feel like the deck supports it.
(One other Consideration is Brushland. Betwenn Brushland, Aether Hub and Horizon Canopies you wold have enough sources for a SB Thragtusk / Dragonlord Dromoka or the like.)
@SpiderSpace I have not actually. Additional mana acceleration is definitely nice. If you play heartless summoning on T2 you can Cast TKS on T3 and Smasher on T3. To get a big advantage of it you would probably want to play more expensive creatures which would make it pretty unreliable in the situations where you don't have summoning out.
The -1,-1 is also not irrelevant. TKS dies to bolt now and Smasher can't attack past Medium Goyfs or Tasigur. What other black cards would you want to play? You can't play bob and you can't play discard because of chalice. Liliana being probably the strongest. It will be difficult to play black, white and colorless with Temple and Gemstone and without Fetches.
I'm hesitant about lodestone Golem. You don't get the Eldrazi Cost reduction, it dies to bolt and with Summoning it would not be able to attack past Bob, Snapcaster etc. The taxing effect of Thalia / Lodestone is also much better in the early turns and looses value the more the game progresses. Golem comes down on T3 with summoning and T4 without (not considering SSG). Potential T1 Summoning of SSG into T2 Lodestone is good but fragile for an investment of three cards.
Honestly I don't think that it would fit.
One nice thing about this list, that stood out to me during testing, is that you are less susceptible to sweepers than with regular DnT. TKS and Smasher survive Anger and Smasher lets you keep back gas in hand but still keep the pressure up post Wrath of God.
(Btw.: Went 5-0 Yesterday again. Deck feels strong. Last list had 1 more big Thalia over Blade Splicer (I'm testing if the legend rule hurts too much), one more Canopy and one big and one small Elspeth in the board.)
Congrats on another 5-0!
I realize adding heartless summoning makes the deck softer to bolt, but it also would give the deck a bit more consistency.
I'm envisioning turns where we cheat out summoning T1 and then T2 Golem or TKS. If you had a temple you could even T2 TKS and play say big Thalia.
For mana, we just would play caves of koilos instead of your battlefield forge.
Congrats on another 5-0!
I realize adding heartless summoning makes the deck softer to bolt, but it also would give the deck a bit more consistency.
I'm envisioning turns where we cheat out summoning T1 and then T2 Golem or TKS. If you had a temple you could even T2 TKS and play say big Thalia.
For mana, we just would play caves of koilos instead of your battlefield forge.
There sure is some high upside in Summoning. But to reliably cast it on T1/T2 you would need at least 12 black sources. So you would need to replace Battlefield Forge and still make room for 8 more black sources. Aether Hub covers 2. After this the next step would be Plains and Horizon Canopies. So 0 Canopies 1 Plains 1 Swamp and a bunch of WB duals. Possible but your mana base is going to fold hard to Blood Moon.
Atm Blood Moon is not unbeatable. We have about 5 Plains and GQ to find the Wastes. We only need single white the whole game. With summoning it would be much tougher.
One additional downside is that it is a non impactful card on its own, meaning a really bad topdeck. And that in multiples they would make your guys really small.
But the potential upside is there and may be worth exploring!
@D90Dennis14 Well Heartless Summoning and Vry Wingmare don't go together all that well. I could definitely see Vryn Wingmare taking the spot of Big Thalia n.3 / Blade Splicer though in the original list.
Sure then it could definitely find a slot or two!
I agree if you want to fit heartless summoning it would probably be correct to rethink the core of the deck and start from scratch.
Seems like the deck is working spot on. You're going to have to start writing the MUs and the sideboarding aspects of the deck. I'm keen on building this on paper.
Edit @Manabase:
In regards of Cavern and Forge I think the manabase could be rearranged to support better the colors:
The caverns will often grant the white for your Thalias so there will be no need to ping yourself with Forge or spend the Energy for white that often, so you can outright save it for the monkeys should you need them, or just grab the lifelink value of your vehicle. You're playing Caverns as well so you might already be lucky and have +3 white/red sources there. I'm also not sure you need Wastes at all, as Blood Moon shouldn't be a card you need to worry about all that much with 6/7 Thalias and 4 TKS in the main + 2 Purges in the board.
Help me understand how this actually functions as when I look it at it, I'm just seeing a super all-in style deck that's just hoping it works and if it doesn't, it folds.
I just goldfished this deck on deckstats, and it feels to me like you want a gemstone out.
The best hand i gotten was 2 gemstones, a TKS, and a Temple. Turn 1 TKS is pretty darn good. With that in mind, I would start cutting out the vehicles and slam in 4 Warping Wail. This gives the deck even more ramp with a Gemstone + any land, which then makes another turn 2 TKS, or even counter some sorcery stuff like Lava Spike or Serum Visions
Help me understand how this actually functions as when I look it at it, I'm just seeing a super all-in style deck that's just hoping it works and if it doesn't, it folds.
You keep a hand that has a good T1 play (Thalia or Chalice, pref chalice) and build from there a la DnT, but with great top end threats that can come into play faster if you have the cavern out of if you draw a monkey. The power level of a consistent Chalice on 1 is something even the Eldrazi Stompy players couldn't resist back in the Eldrazi Winter. Shutting down Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Serum Visions, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Pierce/Snare, and all the powerful 1 drops of the format (Noble Hierarch, Glistener Elf, almost all elves/dorks, Gutshot, Galvanic Blast, Signal Pest, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, etc etc etc) + the additional value of being a powerhouse against decks like Living End and shutting down Ancestral Vision in any random topdeck war is just insane in the format, that's the big glue that holds RW prison together, Chalice is almost always better than Moon but they compliment each other very well, just as Chalice + Hatebears with the appropriate manabase like this deck is proposing.
I find it more than interesting, and the fact that it's getting 3 5-0s in MTGO is not something to pass by unattended. This is a very promising start, if more people pick it up it may consolidate as a new contender. #Hyped
Heartless summoning makes the deck weaker and doesn't do anything on its own, you can at least chump and live to see another draw step with the monkey and it doesn't leave your entire board vulnerable to Anger of the Gods.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Seems like the deck is working spot on. You're going to have to start writing the MUs and the sideboarding aspects of the deck. I'm keen on building this on paper.
Edit @Manabase:
In regards of Cavern and Forge I think the manabase could be rearranged to support better the colors:
The caverns will often grant the white for your Thalias so there will be no need to ping yourself with Forge or spend the Energy for white that often, so you can outright save it for the monkeys should you need them, or just grab the lifelink value of your vehicle. You're playing Caverns as well so you might already be lucky and have +3 white/red sources there. I'm also not sure you need Wastes at all, as Blood Moon shouldn't be a card you need to worry about all that much with 6/7 Thalias and 4 TKS in the main + 2 Purges in the board.
I'm on vacation this week so no playtesting and no bigger updates to the primer. But it will come in the future!
I do like your mana base - it looks good. It might very well be correct to not play basic wastes, I did not consider that.
If we follow Frank Karstens guideline on mana base we would need 13 white sources on T2. Your mana base provides that but only for creatures. To reliably cast Stony Silence /RIP on T2 we would need a few more sources. Just something to keep in mind.
I just goldfished this deck on deckstats, and it feels to me like you want a gemstone out.
The best hand i gotten was 2 gemstones, a TKS, and a Temple. Turn 1 TKS is pretty darn good. With that in mind, I would start cutting out the vehicles and slam in 4 Warping Wail. This gives the deck even more ramp with a Gemstone + any land, which then makes another turn 2 TKS, or even counter some sorcery stuff like Lava Spike or Serum Visions
3 Gemstone Caverns seems exactly right to me. You draw it reliably but dont get stuck with multiples all that often. I would instantly slam 4 if it weren't legendary.
I dont think we need a one shot ramp that costs us two mana the previous turn. We want to tap out the first few turns to be as proactive as possible.
Eldrazi Tron can play them as they generally have inevitability and try not to die in the early turns. (Besides having less to do in the earyl turns in general.)
Warping Wail is flexible but not too powerful from a raw power level perspective. I played them in the SB but ended up cutting them.
Help me understand how this actually functions as when I look it at it, I'm just seeing a super all-in style deck that's just hoping it works and if it doesn't, it folds.
You keep a hand that has a good T1 play (Thalia or Chalice, pref chalice) and build from there a la DnT, but with great top end threats that can come into play faster if you have the cavern out of if you draw a monkey. The power level of a consistent Chalice on 1 is something even the Eldrazi Stompy players couldn't resist back in the Eldrazi Winter. Shutting down Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Serum Visions, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Pierce/Snare, and all the powerful 1 drops of the format (Noble Hierarch, Glistener Elf, almost all elves/dorks, Gutshot, Galvanic Blast, Signal Pest, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, etc etc etc) + the additional value of being a powerhouse against decks like Living End and shutting down Ancestral Vision in any random topdeck war is just insane in the format, that's the big glue that holds RW prison together, Chalice is almost always better than Moon but they compliment each other very well, just as Chalice + Hatebears with the appropriate manabase like this deck is proposing.
I find it more than interesting, and the fact that it's getting 3 5-0s in MTGO is not something to pass by unattended. This is a very promising start, if more people pick it up it may consolidate as a new contender. #Hyped
Heartless summoning makes the deck weaker and doesn't do anything on its own, you can at least chump and live to see another draw step with the monkey and it doesn't leave your entire board vulnerable to Anger of the Gods.
Well said Darktutor, definitely agree. Some additions:
As Darktutor mentioned, Chalice on 0 comes up as well. Especially in the current meta with many Ad nauseam, Cheerios, Affinity and Ancestral Visions running around.
Chalice is a beast in general and one of the strongest hatecards in Modern. Additionally it works wery well in combination with your hatebears as mentioned by Darktutor (creature protection). I mentioned this in the primer but this is what I was missing in DnT and why I played Selfless Spirit and Spellskite. The creature protection is great. Especially if you can have your creatures be protected from T2 on by casting T1 chalice.
It is not actually that all-in. It just has the potential to get out of the gates more quickly. You have bad topdecks in Chalice, SSG and additional lands (=10) compared to DnT while you have bad topdecks in regular DnT in Vial (=4). But you also have better topdecks in Smasher. So I would say that it has some more potential variance but also more potential power. I wouldn't say that it is an all-in style deck though. If you look at the numbers that is 6 more bad topdecks than in regular DnT. 4 of which (SSG) aren't extremly terrible and a topdecked chalice can potentially counter an opposing topdecked bolt in the lategame as well. Horizon Canopy help mitigate this too.
I would not only go for hands with T1 plays (even if this is the best possible). I would happily keep a hand that has hatecard on T2 and TKS on T3 for example. Generally any not too clunky hand with accelerator(s) and threats is keepable.
There are some draws that are similar to DnT where you curve out your hatebears and there are some where you win the game on T1.
Seems like the deck is working spot on. You're going to have to start writing the MUs and the sideboarding aspects of the deck. I'm keen on building this on paper.
Edit @Manabase:
In regards of Cavern and Forge I think the manabase could be rearranged to support better the colors:
The caverns will often grant the white for your Thalias so there will be no need to ping yourself with Forge or spend the Energy for white that often, so you can outright save it for the monkeys should you need them, or just grab the lifelink value of your vehicle. You're playing Caverns as well so you might already be lucky and have +3 white/red sources there. I'm also not sure you need Wastes at all, as Blood Moon shouldn't be a card you need to worry about all that much with 6/7 Thalias and 4 TKS in the main + 2 Purges in the board.
I'm on vacation this week so no playtesting and no bigger updates to the primer. But it will come in the future!
I do like your mana base - it looks good. It might very well be correct to not play basic wastes, I did not consider that.
If we follow Frank Karstens guideline on mana base we would need 13 white sources on T2. Your mana base provides that but only for creatures. To reliably cast Stony Silence /RIP on T2 we would need a few more sources. Just something to keep in mind.
I count 15 sources for Stony Silence: 2 Canopies, 5 Plains, 3 Aether Hub, 1 Eiganjo, 4 Ghost Quarter. Up to 18 if you have Gemstones on the draw. I am willing each and every time to GQ myself to get out Stony on T1/2 vs Affinity/Tron/Lantern, add Chalice to the equation and you're so ahead in the MU. BTW, I consider Chalice a better drop to Stony Silence in all those MUs (maybe not vs tron, depending on whether they played eggs or map), as if they have Natural State/Nature's Claim they can't use it anymore.
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Now "all-in" is certainly not perfectly measured in the number of bad topdecks, even though I think it gives an initial indication. It is also the number of invested cards into a given outcome. For example an extra SSG for T1 Thalia. This definitely opens you up for a two for one, I agree.
But chalice is quite resilient and only dies to maindeck K command. TKS and Smasher are resilient as well. So the most vulnerable investment is in these hatebears. This is not something I try to belittle but IMO definitely worth the risk as the upside is very high.
@Darktutor I did not count Ghostquarter. Sure in this MU it can be worth it to GQ yourself. But for example against Abzan you want to play T2 RIP but you wouldn't want to T2 GQ yourself. I'm definitely curious to hear if it works out like this for you though!
@Darktutor I did not count Ghostquarter. Sure in this MU it can be worth it to GQ yourself. But for example against Abzan you want to play T2 RIP but you wouldn't want to T2 GQ yourself. I'm definitely curious to hear if it works out like this for you though!
I don't mind playing RiP in T3+ against Abzan, they're not a GY combo deck. Against a Griselbrand deck, or a Gifts Storm I wouldn't mind the land loss. Against Abzan the Chalice is way more important than the RiP (The same is true for Gifts Storm), as it turns off Discard and their main sources of removal: Path and Push, leaving only 2 Decays and 1 Pulse (maybe 1 Dismember too), goyfs you can shrink a turn or 2 later. Without their 1 drops they can't really profit from Scooze and Lingering Souls on its own is slow. I don't think the difference between winning or losing in the Abzan MU comes down to dropping a RiP in T2.
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This deck is a mixture between Eldrazi Stompy and Death and Taxes.
Eldrazi Stompy used to dominate Modern until Eye of Ugin got banned after Eldrazi Winter but still remained a Tier 1 deck in Legacy. Death and Taxes is one of the big players in Legacy as well and exists in Modern even if it certainly isn’t Tier 1 there.
The first version of this deck has been played in Vintage under the name „White Eldrazi“ where it put up some good results. The idea then got ported to Legacy where it is called „Thalia Stompy“. While it didn’t win any big tournaments yet (at least to my knowledge), the results of the people playing this deck have been quite promising. You will find the respective thread on mtgthesource.
This is now the attempt to make it happen in Modern.
This deck is half Eldrazi Stompy and half Death and Taxes and its principal gameplan is to power out early disruptive cards to let your opponent stumble for long enough to finish the game.
During Eldrazi Winter the power of Thought-Knot Seer , Chalice of the void and fast mana has been showed very clearly. This deck proved to be too fast for Modern and one of its key accelerants has been removed ( Eye of Ugin ). Without it the deck got too slow and inconsistent for an aggro deck and people stopped playing it.
This version tries to make up for the lost speed by having more disruptive creatures than Eldrazi Stompy used to have and therefore forcing your opponent to play an even slower game. This is possible thanks to the disruptive creatures white offers, namely Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter and Thalia, Heretic Cathar.
In Modern these so called hatebears are less backbreaking than in Legacy where Thalia can shut down whole decks but are still strong. The earlier you play them, the bigger their effect on the opponent. This is especially true for Leonin Arbiter . In this deck they can get played on turn one where it can single-handedly lock an opponent out of the game. There is a world of difference between a turn one or a turn two Arbiter.
Additionally the white splash offers some amazing sideboard cards that the colorless version is missing.
From the Eldrazi part of the deck we are only using the best ones, namely Thought-Knot Seer , Reality Smasher and Eldrazi Displacer . All of this cards are big threats with unique abilities that put your opponent in a tough spot.
The last lock piece is Chalice of the Void which can be completely devastating against certain decks but also helps protecting your creatures against pesky removal spells.
So this brings us to the backbone of this deck:
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Gemstone Caverns
You always want to see some combination of these cards in your opener. If you don’t have them you should mulligan aggressively. If you don’t have any kind of acceleration and a threat to accelcerate into or the perfect curve of hatecards you ship it.
This deck doesn’t come back from behind very well (besides Smasher) so having a good explosive start is crucial.
This is my decklist as a starting point:
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Spellskite
3 Dismember
1 Smuggler's Copter
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Mutavault
4 Battlefield Forge
1 Eiganjo Castle
6 Plains
1 Wastes
3 Path to exile
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
1 Worship
1 Warping Wail
1 Basilik collar
1 Celestial Purge
Second 5-0 with tuned decklist
4 Thougt-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Blade Splicer
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Aethersphere Harvester
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Aether Hub
4 Battlefield Forge
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
1 Wastes
4 Path to exile
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
1 Worship
2 Celestial Purge
Haste is great at finishing off Planeswalkers like Liliana.
It also makes it harder for them to stabilize with creatures as they come into play tapped as well. One more piece to the disrupting puzzle.
The looting is very relevant as well. Almost half of this deck is mana so looting away excessive lands or hate pieces is great. Definitely one of the flex spots of the deck. It has to bee looked at like an equipment and not a creature. It’s great against Wraths as well as it only is a creature on your turn.
You only need one Wastes as you will have enough incremental colorless sources. If you play against a Blood Moon deck keep in mind that you can search for basics with Ghost Quarter.
Sideboard
- Rest in Peace
Best card against all sorts of graveyard strategies. Bring it in against Dredge, Grishoalbrand, Jund, Abzan, Grixis, Jeskai, living end, Thopter combo etc.
- Stony Silence
Oops I win against various strategies. Bring it in against Tron, Affinity, Cheerios, Ad nauseam etc.
- Worship
Go wide creature based aggro synergy decks life Merfolk are a rather bad MU. Many decks don’t have an answer to this card. You can win a locked down game by milling the OP with Displacer and TKS while always taking their best card. Bring it in against Merfolk, Death and Taxes, other Eldrazi builds, Affinity etc.
- Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
This deck runs 29 mana sources so it is quite possible to cast this card early on. Additionally it often comes in against Path to exile decks which help you ramp into it.
- Path to exile
Much needed additional removal. Doesn’t work well with Chalice but you will find yourself in one of the three following situations:
- Celestial Purge
Path to exile / Disenchant fusion. This card looks narrow but is actually quite versatile. Gets rid of most modern played Enchantments and Planeswalkers (Bitterblossom, Jeskay ascendancy, Pyromancers Ascension, Blood Moon, Liliana, Chandra, Koth, Sorin, etc...)
- Warping Wail
Additional removal for aggro decks like burn or affinity. Counters important sorceries like Scapeshift, Rift Bolt etc. In the SB for its versatility rather than its raw power. Bring it in against small creature decks like DnT, Affinity, Elves etc., Burn, and Scapeshift variants.
- Basilik collar
Source of lifegain. Deathtouch works well with your small creatures to stay relevant in the lategame (Especially great with First Striking Thalias). Lifelink works well with your big Eldrazis to win you a race.
There are many other great options that I will not go through in detail here.White offers some fantastic sideboard cards that can win you the game on the spot.
Bring it in against all sorts of slower decks. Midrange and Control. Once Elspeth resolves its very hard to loose the game. But 6 mana is still expensive. Maybe Gideon is where you want to be.
1. It comes in in games where chalice comes out (for example Jund, Merfolk, DnT, various Bant decks like Knightfall or Eldrazi etc.)
2. or where you don’t put Chalice on one (for example Affinity, Cheeri0s etc.)
3. or where you don’t care about your one dead card if you shut down the whole opposing deck (for example infect)
So it is actually quite alright.
And exiles Tasigurs, Dark Confidants, Grim Flayers, Huntmaster etc.
Bring it in against BGx, Blood Moon.deck, Burn and various others.
For example Surgical Extraction which works well with Ghost Quarter, Blessed Alliance or Pithing Needle for their versatility, Ratchet Bomb as an all outer, Mangara of Corondor as an all outer and because it can go creazy with Eldrazi Displacer and so on.
Just be aware that early double white cards like Kor Firewalker are hard to cast.
IN:
Targeted Creature Removal:
Path to Exile: Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Mirror, Eldrazi Tron, Tron (on the draw), Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Goryo Reanimator, Amulet Titan, Zoo, Bant Spirits, Jund, Abzan Mid, 8Whack,
Blessed Alliance: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, Abzan Mid
Valorous Stance: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Abzan Mid
Journey to Nowhere: Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Declaration in Stone: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, Dredge, 8Whack
Wrath:
Anger of the Gods: Affinity, Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, 8Whack
Engineered Explosives: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Merfolk, Infect, Burn, Zoo, Bant Spirits, 8 Rack, 8Whack,
Ratchet Bomb: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Merfolk, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, 8 Rack, 8Whack,
Artifact and Enchantment Hate:
Stony Silence: Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Lantern Control, Ironworks Combo, Ad Nauseam
Wear // Tear: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, 8 Rack
Disenchant: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, 8 Rack
Semi-universal Targeted Removal:
Cast Out: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control, Jund, Abzan Mid, 8 Rack
Celestial Purge: Sun and Moon, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Burn, Grixis Control, Abzan Mid, Storm, 8 Rack
Oblivion Ring: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control
Graveyard Hate:
Rest in Peace: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Living End, Death's Shadow Aggro, UW Control, Jund, Goryo Reanimator, Grixis Control, Abzan Mid
Grafdigger's Cage: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Elves, Sun and Moon, Goryo Reanimator
Miscellaneous Tech:
Aven Mindcensor: Creature Toolbox Combo, Titan Shift, Scapeshift, Death's Shadow Aggro
Worship: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, Merfolk, Burn, Scapeshift, Titan Shift, Spirits, Amulet Titan, Ur Gifts Storm, Bant Spirits, 8Whack,
Torpor Orb: UWr Kiki Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Titan Shift, Dredge, Bant Spirits, Living End, 8Whack,
Planeswalkers:
Nahiri, the Harbinger: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Abzan Mid
Elspeth, Sun's champion: UW Control, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Jund, Abzan Mid-range
Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
OUT:
Leonin Arbiter: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Affinity, Dredge, 8Whack, Abzan Mid
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo(?), Death's Shadow Aggro, Affinity, Elves, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Bant Eldrazi, 8Whack,
Matter Reshaper: Ad Nauseam, Affinity, Elves, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Storm, UWr Kiki Control
Chalice of the Void: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo, Bant Eldrazi, Tron (on the draw), Scapeshift, Amulet Titan (on the draw), Sun and Moon, Jund, Abzan Mid (on the draw)
Dismember: UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Dredge, Reanimator, Burn, 8Whack, 8 Rack
Gemstone Caverns: take out a Gemstone against (slower) decks on the play when you need the space in the deck. Otherwise leave it in.[/quote]
I tried to keep it simple and general as this deck is still very young. It’s more of an overview.
Favorable: Unfair Combo decks: Ad Nauseam, Infect, Cheerios, Amulet Titan, regular Tron etc.
Between Thalia, Chalice, Arbiter and land destruction your Maindeck consists of Sideboard cards against these kind of decks. Post board it gets even better with Stony Silence.
More or less even:
Unfavorable: Decks that don’t care about Thalia, Arbiter or Chalice:
Eldrazi Tron, Abzan Company, Sun and Moon and Merfolk style decks.
2. Your hatebears are too slow, especially on the draw. This deck plays 7 ways to accelerate you into them on the draw.
Sample situation: You are on the draw with DnT and you play Spellskite (to protect your hatebear) on T2 and follow it up with Arbiter on T3. At this point it is too late for Arbiter to have a big impact and your Spellskite doesn’t actually impact the board either. So even though you actually had your cards on curve it is not good enough.
This deck can go Gemstone Caverns into T1 Chalice into T2 Arbiter. This opening is just much stronger and will often win you the game.
3. You have more removal with Eldrazi Displacer without having to play Reflector Mage or even Fiend Hunter.
4. You have a better late game with Smasher. Additionally the haste is very important and great against Planeswalkers.
(Unfortunately you can’t play Flickerwisp or Aether Vial which is a big loss.)
At the moment I’m still trying to find the perfect cards for the aforementioned flex spots and am tuning the deck. Especially the manabase is definitely not set in stone. It might be that 4 Horiozon Canopies is where you want to be. It is also quite likely that Aether Hub doesn’t provide you with white consistently enough. Well, testing will show.
At the moment I’m 35-15 in matches (which is a very small sample size!) in competitive leagues (70% win) since my very first time playing the deck which I think is quite a good showing for a deck still in its early days (but maybe I did just have some lucky leagues.. - time will show).
I believe that more canopies would be too dangerous in an agresive metagame, but in a world of combo and midrange they are fantastic, or at least that is my experience with that card in DnT. I dont know what to think of aether hub, as i have never played with it, but in paper it seems good, especially with Harvester.
In the sideboard, isn't that elspeth too expensive? maybe Elspeth, knight-errant (an 8/8 flying smasher seems SCARY) or Gideon, ally of Zendikar are better in that slot.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
You can always just start with regular DnT or EnT and wait on Chalice and then if this deck continues to have success buy them later.
I agree with you on Canopies. Compared to regular DnT this version is more all in and tries to lock the opponent out even more - so the game is going to be determined earlier against aggro than with regular DnT (in one way or the other). This means that you are going to take a little less damage than with DnT because the game will be shorter. But this deck also plays Dismember and has no Vial... I'm testing 3 Canopies atm - if it proves to be too much I will reduce this number.
Elspeth might be too expensive, you are right. Especially with more Canopies you might want to go for a cheaper alternative.
@Underused Cards
It is possible that DnT proves to be the better version of it. Personally I had much more success with this list than with any kind of "regular" DnT I played until now. But this might just be me playing against the right MUs or drawing hot. I have played 11 leagues with it now.
You can't play with Vial as the mana curve is too diverse and because Vial is too slow for what this deck is trying to do. If you look at a DnT list you will note the many three drops it plays to take max advantage of Vial - this one has a different curve. You play less three drops but you want to go up to 5 for Smasher.
Your goal is to power out your lock pieces ahead of curve and not to play them one turn after normal curve. This deck also does not play Flickerwisp, Vials best friend.
The best lockdown decks in Modern are red, and they play 4-8 copies of Moon effects in the maindeck. This build already runs maindeck SSG and Gemstone Caverns; cutting white entirely and playing red instead is just common sense. Plus you'd get access to better removal.
With white in the deck, the deck is just hurting itself.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
This is not entirely true. While Moon effects are powerful, they don't seem to be outright game winning in modern (maybe in some specific MUs). Like in the eternal formats, mana acceleration + Chalice + Taxing (especially Thalias) is more effective than just dropping a Moon and hoping to win from there. Playing Moon forces to play a high number of Wastes which is not ideal, Magus is way too fragile in modern to be an actual Moon if you don't have the enchantment. Also, Bolt + Chalice don't get along (the reason why path is on the board), anger is only good against Dredge and little critters decks like regular DnT or Abzan CoCo (which is a deck that's falling out of flavor), it's a lackluster card against most decks.
If you were to play mana accel into moons, you'd be just better off running Sun and Moon.dek rather than eldrazi cards, this deck has a different identity and a different game plan and it feels a lot stronger than dropping a Blood Moon and hoping to draw a game winning card to ride off while the opp is mana screwed.
My 2 cents on the subject.
EDIT:
I don't see the value on playing 4 Battlefield forges over 4 Cavern of Souls, other than casting the monkey which is as bad as not being able to cast it. I guess it could restrain you from casting Arbiter or Thalias in hand, but I believe it could be a great asset for the deck, especially in cases where you need to resolve a TKS/Smasher vs Control or set a Chalice on 2 and want to ignore it with your 2drops.
The question isn't "Is Blood Moon always effective?" The question is "Which is more effective at ending a game: Blood Moon or white taxes?" And the answer is obviously Blood Moon. Sure, Blood Moon is bad against Merfolk, Elves, Affinity, etc. But so are Thalia and Arbiter in those matchups. In all of the matchups where Blood Moon is good, Blood Moon more consistently locks opponents out of a game than Arbiter or Thalia. In fact, if "White Moon" were a card, a 2W enchantment that turned all nonbasic lands into Plains, I would instantly drop Arbiter from the D&T core.
Playing Wastes just turns this into a two color deck, which isn't a problem when the only things requiring colorless mana to cast are 4 CMC and higher.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I'm not sure Moon effects is what you want in a deck that have really 4-6 basics and tries to acelerate eldrazis + lock pieces into the game. First, Blood Moon will delay your eldrazi a couple of turns if you manage to draw the 4/5 lands naturally and it'll be fatal against decks that can pressure you even with blood moon in play. Second, when Blood Moon is bad is a really dead card, when thalia and arbiter are bad, they are creatures that block and attack in worst case scenario. Third, thalia and arbiter are 1 turn faster, and that is crucial to the gameplan of the deck, put a lock piece in game T1 is really important.
While Blood Moon is game against some decks of the metagame, thalia and arbiter are important in a lot more match ups, cost less mana, don't delay your biggest threats and can attack and block.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Blood Moon
I definitely agree with Darktutor and Darkcrawle here. Blood moon doesn't seem to fit this deck too well. Red doesn't offer too much besides Blood Moon and SB Bolt I think. Actually white is really good. T1 Hatebear is fantastic, Displacer works well with all the lands and Temples and the SB cards in white are stellar as well. Additionally it would shut down your own Temples.
You would also loose one of the fundamental strengths of DnT style decks - that your lockpieces can attack.
Cavern of souls
Definitely a strong consideration. The upside is clearly higher as you can play past cryptic command etc. You brought up a good point in Chalice on two. I had akward moments with my hatebears. Cavern of Souls would help.
Even if it doesn't come up all that often I have won games with SSG beats.
What I like about Battlefield Forge is that it is very consistent. Even if the game goes long, meaning you will draw many different cardtypes and even creature types, you will be able to cast all your spells from it. This deck needs all the consistency it can get I think.
I'm worried about the SB cards too as they are non-creature spells but need white mana.
But cavern is the stronger card and has the higher upside. Maybe we could get away with a split between those two.
I'm probably starting with one und slowly add more if I feel like the deck supports it.
(One other Consideration is Brushland. Betwenn Brushland, Aether Hub and Horizon Canopies you wold have enough sources for a SB Thragtusk / Dragonlord Dromoka or the like.)
@SpiderSpace
I have not actually. Additional mana acceleration is definitely nice. If you play heartless summoning on T2 you can Cast TKS on T3 and Smasher on T3. To get a big advantage of it you would probably want to play more expensive creatures which would make it pretty unreliable in the situations where you don't have summoning out.
The -1,-1 is also not irrelevant. TKS dies to bolt now and Smasher can't attack past Medium Goyfs or Tasigur. What other black cards would you want to play? You can't play bob and you can't play discard because of chalice. Liliana being probably the strongest. It will be difficult to play black, white and colorless with Temple and Gemstone and without Fetches.
I'm hesitant about lodestone Golem. You don't get the Eldrazi Cost reduction, it dies to bolt and with Summoning it would not be able to attack past Bob, Snapcaster etc. The taxing effect of Thalia / Lodestone is also much better in the early turns and looses value the more the game progresses. Golem comes down on T3 with summoning and T4 without (not considering SSG). Potential T1 Summoning of SSG into T2 Lodestone is good but fragile for an investment of three cards.
Honestly I don't think that it would fit.
One nice thing about this list, that stood out to me during testing, is that you are less susceptible to sweepers than with regular DnT. TKS and Smasher survive Anger and Smasher lets you keep back gas in hand but still keep the pressure up post Wrath of God.
(Btw.: Went 5-0 Yesterday again. Deck feels strong. Last list had 1 more big Thalia over Blade Splicer (I'm testing if the legend rule hurts too much), one more Canopy and one big and one small Elspeth in the board.)
I realize adding heartless summoning makes the deck softer to bolt, but it also would give the deck a bit more consistency.
I'm envisioning turns where we cheat out summoning T1 and then T2 Golem or TKS. If you had a temple you could even T2 TKS and play say big Thalia.
For mana, we just would play caves of koilos instead of your battlefield forge.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
It comes down earlier and is evasive.
There sure is some high upside in Summoning. But to reliably cast it on T1/T2 you would need at least 12 black sources. So you would need to replace Battlefield Forge and still make room for 8 more black sources. Aether Hub covers 2. After this the next step would be Plains and Horizon Canopies. So 0 Canopies 1 Plains 1 Swamp and a bunch of WB duals. Possible but your mana base is going to fold hard to Blood Moon.
Atm Blood Moon is not unbeatable. We have about 5 Plains and GQ to find the Wastes. We only need single white the whole game. With summoning it would be much tougher.
One additional downside is that it is a non impactful card on its own, meaning a really bad topdeck. And that in multiples they would make your guys really small.
But the potential upside is there and may be worth exploring!
@D90Dennis14
Well Heartless Summoning and Vry Wingmare don't go together all that well. I could definitely see Vryn Wingmare taking the spot of Big Thalia n.3 / Blade Splicer though in the original list.
(that sounds like an entirely different deck, closer to this - http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/756051-heartless-architect).
Sure then it could definitely find a slot or two!
I agree if you want to fit heartless summoning it would probably be correct to rethink the core of the deck and start from scratch.
Edit @Manabase:
In regards of Cavern and Forge I think the manabase could be rearranged to support better the colors:
3 Aether Hub
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Horizon Canopy
5 Plains
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Gemstone Caverns
The caverns will often grant the white for your Thalias so there will be no need to ping yourself with Forge or spend the Energy for white that often, so you can outright save it for the monkeys should you need them, or just grab the lifelink value of your vehicle. You're playing Caverns as well so you might already be lucky and have +3 white/red sources there. I'm also not sure you need Wastes at all, as Blood Moon shouldn't be a card you need to worry about all that much with 6/7 Thalias and 4 TKS in the main + 2 Purges in the board.
EDIT: My heartless summoning idea was an effort to make it more consistent.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
The best hand i gotten was 2 gemstones, a TKS, and a Temple. Turn 1 TKS is pretty darn good. With that in mind, I would start cutting out the vehicles and slam in 4 Warping Wail. This gives the deck even more ramp with a Gemstone + any land, which then makes another turn 2 TKS, or even counter some sorcery stuff like Lava Spike or Serum Visions
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You keep a hand that has a good T1 play (Thalia or Chalice, pref chalice) and build from there a la DnT, but with great top end threats that can come into play faster if you have the cavern out of if you draw a monkey. The power level of a consistent Chalice on 1 is something even the Eldrazi Stompy players couldn't resist back in the Eldrazi Winter. Shutting down Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Serum Visions, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Pierce/Snare, and all the powerful 1 drops of the format (Noble Hierarch, Glistener Elf, almost all elves/dorks, Gutshot, Galvanic Blast, Signal Pest, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, etc etc etc) + the additional value of being a powerhouse against decks like Living End and shutting down Ancestral Vision in any random topdeck war is just insane in the format, that's the big glue that holds RW prison together, Chalice is almost always better than Moon but they compliment each other very well, just as Chalice + Hatebears with the appropriate manabase like this deck is proposing.
I find it more than interesting, and the fact that it's getting 3 5-0s in MTGO is not something to pass by unattended. This is a very promising start, if more people pick it up it may consolidate as a new contender. #Hyped
Heartless summoning makes the deck weaker and doesn't do anything on its own, you can at least chump and live to see another draw step with the monkey and it doesn't leave your entire board vulnerable to Anger of the Gods.
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hah, i missed that.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
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Naban Wizards
I'm on vacation this week so no playtesting and no bigger updates to the primer. But it will come in the future!
I do like your mana base - it looks good. It might very well be correct to not play basic wastes, I did not consider that.
If we follow Frank Karstens guideline on mana base we would need 13 white sources on T2. Your mana base provides that but only for creatures. To reliably cast Stony Silence /RIP on T2 we would need a few more sources. Just something to keep in mind.
3 Gemstone Caverns seems exactly right to me. You draw it reliably but dont get stuck with multiples all that often. I would instantly slam 4 if it weren't legendary.
I dont think we need a one shot ramp that costs us two mana the previous turn. We want to tap out the first few turns to be as proactive as possible.
Eldrazi Tron can play them as they generally have inevitability and try not to die in the early turns. (Besides having less to do in the earyl turns in general.)
Warping Wail is flexible but not too powerful from a raw power level perspective. I played them in the SB but ended up cutting them.
Well said Darktutor, definitely agree. Some additions:
As Darktutor mentioned, Chalice on 0 comes up as well. Especially in the current meta with many Ad nauseam, Cheerios, Affinity and Ancestral Visions running around.
Chalice is a beast in general and one of the strongest hatecards in Modern. Additionally it works wery well in combination with your hatebears as mentioned by Darktutor (creature protection). I mentioned this in the primer but this is what I was missing in DnT and why I played Selfless Spirit and Spellskite. The creature protection is great. Especially if you can have your creatures be protected from T2 on by casting T1 chalice.
It is not actually that all-in. It just has the potential to get out of the gates more quickly. You have bad topdecks in Chalice, SSG and additional lands (=10) compared to DnT while you have bad topdecks in regular DnT in Vial (=4). But you also have better topdecks in Smasher. So I would say that it has some more potential variance but also more potential power. I wouldn't say that it is an all-in style deck though. If you look at the numbers that is 6 more bad topdecks than in regular DnT. 4 of which (SSG) aren't extremly terrible and a topdecked chalice can potentially counter an opposing topdecked bolt in the lategame as well. Horizon Canopy help mitigate this too.
I would not only go for hands with T1 plays (even if this is the best possible). I would happily keep a hand that has hatecard on T2 and TKS on T3 for example. Generally any not too clunky hand with accelerator(s) and threats is keepable.
There are some draws that are similar to DnT where you curve out your hatebears and there are some where you win the game on T1.
I count 15 sources for Stony Silence: 2 Canopies, 5 Plains, 3 Aether Hub, 1 Eiganjo, 4 Ghost Quarter. Up to 18 if you have Gemstones on the draw. I am willing each and every time to GQ myself to get out Stony on T1/2 vs Affinity/Tron/Lantern, add Chalice to the equation and you're so ahead in the MU. BTW, I consider Chalice a better drop to Stony Silence in all those MUs (maybe not vs tron, depending on whether they played eggs or map), as if they have Natural State/Nature's Claim they can't use it anymore.
Now "all-in" is certainly not perfectly measured in the number of bad topdecks, even though I think it gives an initial indication. It is also the number of invested cards into a given outcome. For example an extra SSG for T1 Thalia. This definitely opens you up for a two for one, I agree.
But chalice is quite resilient and only dies to maindeck K command. TKS and Smasher are resilient as well. So the most vulnerable investment is in these hatebears. This is not something I try to belittle but IMO definitely worth the risk as the upside is very high.
@Darktutor
I did not count Ghostquarter. Sure in this MU it can be worth it to GQ yourself. But for example against Abzan you want to play T2 RIP but you wouldn't want to T2 GQ yourself. I'm definitely curious to hear if it works out like this for you though!
I don't mind playing RiP in T3+ against Abzan, they're not a GY combo deck. Against a Griselbrand deck, or a Gifts Storm I wouldn't mind the land loss. Against Abzan the Chalice is way more important than the RiP (The same is true for Gifts Storm), as it turns off Discard and their main sources of removal: Path and Push, leaving only 2 Decays and 1 Pulse (maybe 1 Dismember too), goyfs you can shrink a turn or 2 later. Without their 1 drops they can't really profit from Scooze and Lingering Souls on its own is slow. I don't think the difference between winning or losing in the Abzan MU comes down to dropping a RiP in T2.