DoJ just because I wanted to try them out. Not necessarily because they are better. Same goes for Shefet Dunes.
You are right about the Rip & Cage. 3 Copies of GY hate seems like enough in the current meta.
I think MD Mirran Crusader are a bit excessive and we don't really need the help against DS to justify MD Crusader. Besides DS, Crusader is not too well positioned agaisnt the other T1 decks so I wouldn't want them in the main.
Hey guys. I picked back up the deck recently. I went 4-1 in one league, 3-2 in another (but it should have been a 4-1. I had a modo misclick thing), and then 5-0 in the last. The later two I did on stream with the following list: http://www.streamdecker.com/deck/BJoeDEUYZ. I think I may try going back to mono W after the next set comes out, but some of the R cards are just super good. Pia and Kiran Nalaar + displacer just destroys grindy MUs. The reach alone is huge.
P+K Nalaar is such an awesome card, esp. with Displacer. If you stay Wr, it totally makes sense, especially with your changes to the mana base.
Still not sure how I feel about going WR, since finding Anger to make it in the bad matches hasn't really been consistent, as we don't have draw and the mana base is kind of painful.
BTW, this is my deck of choice right now.
Sure, we still have issues with CoCo Combo and Counters company decks, but they are only about 6% of the paper meta in the last two months and various non-creature combo decks that we have good games against have re-appeared. I am happy to fight Valakut, Storm, Living end, dredge and Ad Nauseum (~16%). Feel real fine against UWx Control (9% of the meta) and midrange and aggro (Burn, Affinity, Death's shadow, E-Tron (36%). Merfolk is about 1% of the live meta, Bant Spirits (my other deck of choice, highly under-rated, highly disruptive and a huge problem for the Creature Combo and other go-wide decks, but soft to Burn) and Hatebears\DnT combined is about 3-4%.
As always, thinking about how to keep the deck solid and still fight through the bad matches, which IMO are 1) Go Wide decks i.e. Merfolk, Spirits, GW Evolution, etc. and 2) GBx Mid-Range, thanks to them being Good Stuff hand destruction, removal, and value creatures that win the 1-for-1 game.
So what cards aren't that good in those matches that also aren't great in other matches? Targeted removal. Dismember and PtE just aren't great against decks that either get way beyond our limited removal and end up swinging back on us for a ton and we will never out-value GBx Mid-range.
Possible solutions?
Maindeck Engineered Explosives. Drop targeted removal. 2 1-for-1's aren't that great and against the decks we over-power with creatures, removal is a nicety, not a necessity. Instead, go for board-wipe that hits all non-land permanents CMC 0-2. Not that the deck can't get 3 colors, but that seems sketchy even if we diversify our mana base (I think that would mean -2 Cavern of Souls, +2 Caves of Koilos, and maybe even -2 Plains for +2 more Caves.) And 0-2 wipe does major damage Game 1 to Affinity, Burn, Death's shadow, GBx mid-range, Merfolk, but also Elves, GW CoCo, and Lantern Control.
Aven Mindcensor in place of Thalia, Heretic Cathar. I like THC, but she is nowhere near as good versus Scapeshift/Primetime and Gifts Storm, both of which are exceedingly powerful, while hitting in the air, which is great with Worship versus Merfolk. Plus, she is better mana denial and I think that is really important at the moment.
I am thinking if there are any hate-lands we want to use, like Tec Edge or the new Field of Ruin, but I am not ready to go there yet.
Sideboard Elspeth, sun's champion has always been excellent in the mid-range match. Blow up their board, or make a ton of chump blockers. I am going to test Settle the Wreckage, but wiping the board and leaving a permanent feels better in our deck. There's a reason Stabil0 used this a lot.
Ratchet Bomb as a 2-of. Maybe it ought to be EE 3 and 4, but I am not sure. Ratchet allows you to go bigger than EE can and sometimes you need that.
Kataki, War's Wage replacing Stony Silence. Stony is better versus Eldrazi Tron, but with Ratchet Bomb and EE, actually worse than Kataki against Affinity and Lantern. Use Resto and Elspeth against E-Tron.
Restoration Angel... my weird choice for the GBx mid-range matches. Resto has always been good against mid-range decks. It blank removal, makes a powerful 3/4 against planeswalkers, and has flash. Plus, against GBx Mid-range, just keep Chalice in, put it on 1 (Jund and Junk tend to run a LOT of 1 mana spells these days between Bolt, PtE, Thoughtseize, IoK, and Push.)
A lot of my sideboard thinking is driven by the question: how do we beat GBx mid-range? You don't beat them in the 1-for-1 game. You can't kill all of the Lilianas. Siege Rhino will resolve in multiple copies. Answers? Elspeth is great, Ratchet is for Souls tokens and cmc 2 creatures, and Resto helps blank their removal, never mind that Resto is a massive house with Displacer on the field (allows Displacer to protect itself.)
However, there is another issue: If we really are a Stax-type deck, then instants and sorceries are actually to be avoided. Artifact, Creature, Land, Enchantment, Planeswalker, i.e. the parade of taxing/sac-ing/exiling permanents. As a result, I am eliminating them as simply too narrow and not increasing our control of the board and our opponent's ability to actually do anything meaningful each turn.
FYI - If I am not doing this deck, it is Bant Spirits or Eldrazi Tron.
@redtwister I find it somewhat surprising that you find GBx to be such a difficult MU. I find it to often be very close. The RW version has lots of nice value cards I've tested like Pia and Kiran Nalaar, nahiri, the harbinger, chandra, torch of defianceand hazoret the fervent, but even in mono W, just adding a few blinkable targets can go a long way. I was playing a 1x MD blade splicer. If it's GBx that you're scared of in particular, you could also try mirran crusader.
Also, I feel that thalia, heretic cathar is one of the ways we beat those creature mirrors as she's formidable in combat, while slowing their role and pushing through damage. She doesn't fix those MUs entirely, but she does a lot vs a lot of the field.
@SpiderSpace
RW definitely has some nice tools that I like, especially P+K and Eldrazi Obligator, but I am working on WW for now because I like the consistency of the manabase.
I put Mirran Crusader in back in August and WW proved way to hard to do turns 1 and 2 because we have Simian Spirit Guide. We need a W producing Spirit Guide. I went back to THC after about 10 games.
I am swapping THC for Aven Mindcensor at the moment because i want to go move mana denial and search hate. THC is a much better combat card, absolutely.
What is your list these days? Same as before?
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@redtwister
Yeah, the mana being better is huge. I'm really looking forward to updating this decks SB with a certain W card coming out soon that helps aggro MUs
@redtwister
Interesting to see that your list has no Dismembers MD. I can see the appeal of EE but it seems quite narrow to me in multiples in the main. Against E-Tron and Grixis DS Dismembers are very good. And sometimes you need to kill a creature on t2 like against Storm / Creature combo. It' such an efficient answer and helps generating tempo which this deck can profit from.
I don't think that leaving out Dismembers completly is correct.
But a one of EE MD could be good.
I have been testing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board (in WB EnT) and I really liked it. I think that would be my choice against GBx at the moment.
Against the current meta with Storm and Valakut being T1 I would also want some Mindcensors somewhere in the 75 (probably the SB).
It will definitely be interesting to see if the new wrath turns out to be a good option. This would further boost mono W.
In that list, I don't think that Dismember is very good except against DS and E-Tron.
Gideon is cool. 4 mana, make a problem every turn is pretty strong. I've used it in Legacy DnT as a sideboard card and it certainly makes the grade there. However, I am still in love with Elspeth until I get that 4 mana exile. I think it is actually a bad card, but I am determined to find a way to make it work (hence moving to Mindcensors as well.)
I won't get to play this week because of my work, so I'll let you know down the road how it went. Hopefully, I get some play-testing in this week anyway.
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"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I'm still playing the deck and enjoying it, though I find Modern a bit dull. It is diverse, but it feels not very fun. I designed a BR Land Destruction control deck in pauper that is a huge amount of fun... for me. Also actually excited about Standard (I know, right?!?!?) and my UW Approach deck. Pure control, creature-less wincon. I am slightly excited to try Settle the Wreckage in our decks.
Ran below to a 2-1-1. I beat Naya Zoo and Scapeshift, and lost to Bant Eldrazi, but that match feels awkward and if that was the Eldrazi deck of choice, I think we would not play this build.
Blade Splicer felt fine. Didn't get to blink it much, but those were not matches where it was the thing to do except against Bant E and I mulliganed out of the match both games so who knows. Feels like a couple blinks and it is a house against Eldrazi with a bunch of 3/3 first strike tokens.
EDIT:
I am officially testing 1 Field of Ruin in place of 1 Gemstone Caverns. Given my current build, a 5th land destruction card is fine and it actually mana fixes us sometimes into a plains. It doesn't provide the "on the draw" acceleration that GC does, but I am not sure going from 3 to 2 is a huge drop, whereas the 5th GQ with 2 main deck Mindcensor is probably pretty good. Sadly it only hits non-basics, but I think that will rarely matter.
Not sure what I want the 15th sideboard card to be.
1 Worship because two feels excessive with 2 Settle the Wreckage.
2 (Cast Out) to deal with opposing non-land permanents.
2 Stony and 1 Kataki, whcih is plenty of artifact hate.
1 Cage for CoCo/Chord decks.
2 Eidolon for Combo and Control decks.
2 PtE for deck where Chalice is bad or should be on 0/2 (Affinity, Eldrazi, Merfolk, Storm, etc.)
2 "Settle the Wreckage" for go wide decks, to complement PtE.
2 RiP and 1 Cage for graveyard decks.
So what is a worthwhile 1-of? Celestial Purge and Blessed Alliance come to mind first. I am going to try Purge because it deals with permanents as such.
I would recommend testing all of the different builds before deciding to buy into one of them. This deck here is more explosive and is capable of some ridiculous plays. E.g. occasionally people scoop to T1 Chalice/Arbiter. Personally I think it is very fun to play and I have had good success with it.
I also think that BW EnT is a good deck atm (I like 4 Bobs, 0 Smasher versions). Regular DnT is a bit underpowered in the current meta IMO.
If you like flicker tricks and tricky lines of play than EnT/DnT is probably more for you. If you like slamming TKS, Arbiter, Smasher and Chalice as early as possible and to lock people out this version here will do the trick.
Field of Ruin was pretty 'meh'. It was okay, but not really worth the Gemstone Cavern slot. Haven't really played many sideboard matches in testing so far.
Scapeshift/PrimeTime has gone down in frequency at my locals, largely replaced by GBx midrange, so going back to Matter Reshaper in place of Aven Mindcensor seems like the right move. Reshaper is simply better against midrange and aggro strategies.
I would recommend testing all of the different builds before deciding to buy into one of them. This deck here is more explosive and is capable of some ridiculous plays. E.g. occasionally people scoop to T1 Chalice/Arbiter. Personally I think it is very fun to play and I have had good success with it.
I also think that BW EnT is a good deck atm (I like 4 Bobs, 0 Smasher versions). Regular DnT is a bit underpowered in the current meta IMO.
If you like flicker tricks and tricky lines of play than EnT/DnT is probably more for you. If you like slamming TKS, Arbiter, Smasher and Chalice as early as possible and to lock people out this version here will do the trick.
That touches on something I've been pondering. D&T has always appealed to me, but I've likewise felt it was underpowered -- it feels a little too fair and I'm usually hoping to just get there. After bouncing between a few other decks, I've been tinkering with this and plain Colorless Stompy (albeit w/o Chalice). How do you feel the two compare? In my dozen or so matches with both, Stompy has seemed more explosive but with more holes (Storm, Affinity, and the like). Again, not playing with Chalice in either (yet) so that may impact my perception. Thoughts from those that have played both?
@redtwister
I agree with your last post. What's your impression on settle the wreckage? (If you have tested it).
@Darkest_before_dawn
I like both decks quite a bit. The eldrazi Stompy deck is more of a pure aggro deck. You have limited ways of interacting but can be more explosive mostly due to Eldrazi Mimic and your increased consistency of finding Temple. Your SB options are quite limited. DnS offers you more ways of interacting. In the main you play Arbiter, Thalia and Displacer and obviously the SB gives you way more options. If you like brewing and adapting DnS has more room for it. Best example; the post above you by redtwister. He feels like the meta is shifting so he adapts his decklist. In stompy this is less possible. DnS has the lockout aspect (Arbiter + GQ and Thalia) which Stompy is missing. So this is also a question of taste. I feel like DnS has more play to it. You have to decide when to go for resource denial and when to go for Aggro, and Displacer(+TKS) gives you many options. It is less reliant on Temple but the payoff from Temple is also smaller since you don't play only Eldrazis. The Stompy deck seems better at grinding to me because of SGW and the post board Relic Scourge combo. It also goldfishes faster. Stompy is probably the incrementally more powerful deck while DnS lets you tune for a certain meta / is better positioned if Thalia and Arbiter are good in the meta.
As you see by the discussion in the Stompy thread, a Stompy version without Chalice is viable (even though probably suboptimal). I have not played a DnS version without Chalice and am sceptical about it.
As for further inputs: Spiderspace has a Twitch account (Sspiderspace) where he quite regularly streams DnS. He is a very good player and this is a premium resource to see the deck in action. But IDK if the old videos are still available. kponceMTG used to stream this deck a bit but without Chalice (replacing them and SSG for Path and Thraben Inspector). This is a suboptimal version IMO and I also like his plays less than Spiders. But it could interest you since he is not playing Chalice either. The only video I know of for Stompy is by Corbin Hosler where he suboptimally plays the deck. Still ok to watch.
@Stabil0
Haven't gotten many games in with Settle yet, so for now it is a theory-craft tech. Feels like it ought to be better than anything else because it doesn't hurt our board and sometimes we even have Arbiter out, plus most decks don't really play that many basics among the decks where we would bring it in, except Merfolk, and some extra basics won't save them if we blow them out.
@Darkest_before_dawn
The big advantages of DnS seem to me to be:
1. Powerful turn 1/2 openings to create a bad state for your opponent immediately. Dropping Chalice, Thalia, or Arbiter, and sometimes even Reshaper/THC/Displacer/other 3 drop or TKS turn 1 simply destroys a lot of decks, but especially aggro decks with lots of cmc 1 cards (Death's Shadow, Burn, Naya Aggro, Affinity, etc.), non-creature combo decks and control.
2. White sideboard cards because that is the best color (ask Eldrazi Tron players if they would like to be able to run Rest in Peace!)
5. As Stabil0 noted, deck flexibility. In the CMC 3 spot for WW, Aven Mindcensor, Thalia, Heretic Cathar (aka THC aka Mary Jane aka Frank), Matter Reshaper, and Blade Splicer are all fine choices. Reshaper and THC are the default go-to cards because they do things we want to do early: turn 1/2 3/2 that gets a replacement card when it dies or mana disruption on a 3/2 first striker.
The disadvantages, however, are there.
1. Weak to "go-wide" and creature combo decks. Company/Chord and decks like Merfolk and Bant Spirits can be problematic. Hence the constant discussion on this thread of finding a viable sweeper and running Worship.
2. Weak to flyers. See Bant Spirits but also stupid Lingering Souls tokens.
3. Mid-range decks, IMO. A deck full of good stuff, tons of removal, hand disruption, etc. is hard to beat. We really need to have a fast start, otherwise they will often out-grind us.
4. The possibility of explosive starts goes hand in hand with the possibility of slow starts and this is where I feel the mid-range match is bad because their slow start includes hand distruption, ways to blow up Chalice, etc. In a fair vs. fair match, I think we are a lot like DnT in Legacy when they don't start with a Vial: all of our pieces are just a bit weaker and slower and we can get picked apart, without having much draw to pull us out of it.
@Darkest_before_dawn
I like both decks quite a bit. The eldrazi Stompy deck is more of a pure aggro deck. You have limited ways of interacting but can be more explosive mostly due to Eldrazi Mimic and your increased consistency of finding Temple. Your SB options are quite limited. DnS offers you more ways of interacting. In the main you play Arbiter, Thalia and Displacer and obviously the SB gives you way more options. If you like brewing and adapting DnS has more room for it. Best example; the post above you by redtwister. He feels like the meta is shifting so he adapts his decklist. In stompy this is less possible. DnS has the lockout aspect (Arbiter + GQ and Thalia) which Stompy is missing. So this is also a question of taste. I feel like DnS has more play to it. You have to decide when to go for resource denial and when to go for Aggro, and Displacer(+TKS) gives you many options. It is less reliant on Temple but the payoff from Temple is also smaller since you don't play only Eldrazis. The Stompy deck seems better at grinding to me because of SGW and the post board Relic Scourge combo. It also goldfishes faster. Stompy is probably the incrementally more powerful deck while DnS lets you tune for a certain meta / is better positioned if Thalia and Arbiter are good in the meta.
As you see by the discussion in the Stompy thread, a Stompy version without Chalice is viable (even though probably suboptimal). I have not played a DnS version without Chalice and am sceptical about it.
As for further inputs: Spiderspace has a Twitch account (Sspiderspace) where he quite regularly streams DnS. He is a very good player and this is a premium resource to see the deck in action. But IDK if the old videos are still available. kponceMTG used to stream this deck a bit but without Chalice (replacing them and SSG for Path and Thraben Inspector). This is a suboptimal version IMO and I also like his plays less than Spiders. But it could interest you since he is not playing Chalice either. The only video I know of for Stompy is by Corbin Hosler where he suboptimally plays the deck. Still ok to watch.
@Darkest_before_dawn
The big advantages of DnS seem to me to be:
1. Powerful turn 1/2 openings to create a bad state for your opponent immediately. Dropping Chalice, Thalia, or Arbiter, and sometimes even Reshaper/THC/Displacer/other 3 drop or TKS turn 1 simply destroys a lot of decks, but especially aggro decks with lots of cmc 1 cards (Death's Shadow, Burn, Naya Aggro, Affinity, etc.), non-creature combo decks and control.
2. White sideboard cards because that is the best color (ask Eldrazi Tron players if they would like to be able to run Rest in Peace!)
5. As Stabil0 noted, deck flexibility. In the CMC 3 spot for WW, Aven Mindcensor, Thalia, Heretic Cathar (aka THC aka Mary Jane aka Frank), Matter Reshaper, and Blade Splicer are all fine choices. Reshaper and THC are the default go-to cards because they do things we want to do early: turn 1/2 3/2 that gets a replacement card when it dies or mana disruption on a 3/2 first striker.
The disadvantages, however, are there.
1. Weak to "go-wide" and creature combo decks. Company/Chord and decks like Merfolk and Bant Spirits can be problematic. Hence the constant discussion on this thread of finding a viable sweeper and running Worship.
2. Weak to flyers. See Bant Spirits but also stupid Lingering Souls tokens.
3. Mid-range decks, IMO. A deck full of good stuff, tons of removal, hand disruption, etc. is hard to beat. We really need to have a fast start, otherwise they will often out-grind us.
4. The possibility of explosive starts goes hand in hand with the possibility of slow starts and this is where I feel the mid-range match is bad because their slow start includes hand distruption, ways to blow up Chalice, etc. In a fair vs. fair match, I think we are a lot like DnT in Legacy when they don't start with a Vial: all of our pieces are just a bit weaker and slower and we can get picked apart, without having much draw to pull us out of it.
Cheers for both your responses! Very helpful. From playing a few matches with both, I've seen evidence of the strengths/weaknesses you describe. D&S fits my play style a little more so I'm inclined to focus on it, but the struggles against midrange are real (even with a trio of Splicers in the mix). For now I'll probably keep them both "sleeved up" on MTGO since I broke down and bought the playset of Chalice.
Here's the list I'm running in the Modern Challenge:
There's congestion at the 3 drop spot without a Temple in play, which definitely hurts in the match-ups where a fast/curved start is needed (e.g. BGx).
@redtwister
Yeah in theory it looks pretty sweet to me as well.
@darkest_before_dawn
Personally I have not had the same experiences with midrange (If we are speaking BGx). Most of our threats are just pretty good on their own. Try to play around Liliana, it's their best card, and keep hands that are more value oriented than all in /speed oriented (if possible ). Midrange in a Knightfall style is more problematic IMO.
And for your SB I would personally not play Blessed Alliance. We are too much of an aggro and tapp-out deck for it to really fit. Also Spatial and Needle are cards I'm fine playing in Stompy but would rather replace in DnS since we have more options available. But obviously if you like them just go with them.
On midrange, I used to be on the "remove your Chalices after siding" plan, but I think it is a mistake. They run a ton of cmc 1 cards, most of their removal and all of their hand destruction, so I now keep Chalice in.
I agree with Stabil0's points on how to play against them (essentially, as a better mid-range beat down deck, rather than as a an aggressive prison deck.) I think I have problems with them because I tend to vomit my hand, instead of playing out a threat and sitting back and forcing them to respond. Not like either deck has draw action. Also, if they have to deal with RiP and Chalice with their Abrupt Decays, we can strain their ability to deal with us.
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"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I ended up finishing the Modern Challenge 3-4 with two losses to BGx, another I'll have to check my notes on, and a dead rubber match to a Metalwork Colossus/Balance deck that I had to look up so I had some idea what I was sideboarding against. One of the highlights was an opponent complaining about "WHO PLAYS DEC IN STONE?!" after it cleared his Warrens tokens to much amusement.
I'm caught in two minds with this deck. It seems very dependent on a quick, disruptive start followed by just enough pressure to capitalize. In games where Thalia, Arbiter, and Chalice are highly impactful, it feels smooth. The occasional double Temple hands are explosive and even a single one can be great. But it feels like there's a decent percentage of the time where my hand is just a turn too slow (e.g. no Temple, a Thalia/Arbiter that's immediately removed, and maybe one of Smasher/TKS). Once the game turns a little grindy, our threats don't have evasion and can be outclassed, we have no draw, and there's not many ways to outvalue an opponent sans Displacer shenanigans. For example, I'm not really sure how to play around LoTV other than not running a creature into an empty board when it will likely get edicted. I'm not sure that's a "winning" line so much as a "less losing" line -- we're already actively giving up CA with some of our card choices and there's not really a bail out card short of a Smasher at 4+ lands. If you're just a little mana-flooded or starved, things get ugly too.
There's definitely a few things I can do to improve my odds. Like Stabil0 mentions prioritizing a value-oriented opener vs explosiveness would help and my SB is far from tuned. I'm wondering if there's a way to apply more pressure though (via evasion or disruption). Quite a few D&T matches boil down to flyers scraping through or a flicker clearing a troublesome blocker. Or I'd love a Blade Splicer at 2 CMC that gives a 2/2 body to better fit the non-Temple curve. Maybe splashing another color for more punch. I have a loose idea for a BW version although that may drop the taxers. Anyone else have similar experiences? Suggestions on changes to consider?
@Darkest_before_dawn
A couple more notes:
You don't have enough lands and your mix is suboptimal for a blend of waste and white. I think 4 Battlefield Forge and 25 linds is pretty essential. Yes, you sometimes get flooding, but better flood than screw. That's also why two of the 25 at least need to be Horizon Canopy.
You also can't overload the non-Eldrazi cmc 3 spot. Basically there are 5 slots there: Some combination of Reshaper/THC/Mindcensor/Splicer, etc. 3 Reshaper allow you to take advantage of Eldrazi Temple.
Everything else is negotiable, but that is less than you would expect. I tend towards the lower number, so I use up 9 spots immediately. Lots of great suggestions in the other 12 pages of the thread.
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"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I've been tinkering with versions in other colors using basically the same manabase just color-shifted; it's led me to the same conclusion. You're right -- I'm at least one land short and two may be better if they're Horizon Canopy. Are the Battlefield Forge just to cast SSG if need be? Otherwise the numbers look good on colorless (16 sources) and white (currently 11 + potentially 2 Canopy) according to Karsten's probabilities.
You also can't overload the non-Eldrazi cmc 3 spot. Basically there are 5 slots there: Some combination of Reshaper/THC/Mindcensor/Splicer, etc. 3 Reshaper allow you to take advantage of Eldrazi Temple.
Followed the gist of this, just not the numbers. You're suggesting 3 Reshaper + 2 from the THC/Mindcensor/Splicer? Ostensibly those two slots become the missing land mentioned above.
Appreciate the feedback! I'm sure I can cobble together a more useful SB from suggestions and my experience once I look at it again. Usually I focus on finding a 60 I like first, then try to fill the weaknesses in the last 15.
Stray thought -- I wonder if there's a way to keep the manabase functional while pushing more land destruction a la Field of Ruin and more Mindcensors. I may give that a shot at some point.
I am going to try an old-new track on the deck, with RW. I haven't been happy with the way WW has functioned, but part of that reflects the speed of the format, which is not decreasing, and what we have to fight against.
Most of my game 1 losses to aggro are for a lack of sweepers. I don't get nearly as much value from Dismember as I did when the format was Infect-heavy. In fact, the life loss on top of the iffyness of only 3 1-for-1 removal spells has been quite bad. I want a sweeper, but I don't want one that is just dead in my hand, and my solution is Sweltering Suns because of "cycle 3". It isn't an elegant draw spell, but it is a draw spell that uses mana when we flood to dig deeper.
Where I do have to deal with bigger creatures, I also prefer a card I have used to great effect: Eldrazi Obligator. Stealing their threat and beating them with it is huge, and also very powerful against opposing planeswalkers. 5 mana to steal an opposing threat and have a 3/1 haste creature has worked for me, but It was always a 1-of. I think I want a 3-of.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is also a sweeper that is a finisher that is exceptionally good against mid-range decks.
If we go up in sweepers, then the real question has to be, where is the value of Path to Exile? Aside from Storm, where is it really key (and I would argue that our best weapons against Storm are still creatures Thalia, Eidolon, TKS and non-removal spells, namely RiP, Cage, Chalice)? Against Affinity, Elves, Spirits, and Merfolk, I want sweepers and I don't want to give them land unless I am blowing them out. Against non-ramp mid-range, I want Elspeth, often RiP, Obligator and Cast Out. Against CoCo and ramp decks I want sweepers, Ratchet Bomb, Grafdigger's Cage, and more sweepers.
I know this might not work and it might be madness, but there is a method to my madness and I am laying it out here for you.
On mana, we have gone over this before. Thanks to Simian Spirit Guide, red is our best splash for consistency. I am also torn between 2 Aether Hub and a split 1 Aether Hub/1 manland, either Needle Spires or Mutavault, though I am inclined to Spires for r/w mana and 2/1 double strike. Obviously harder to activate and comes in tapped, so it could be bad sometimes, but as a 1-of, I am going to probably try it.
Questions:
Why DoJ instead of Worship?
Why 3 Rip with 1 Cage? Seems excessive.
This is my list:
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Gemstone Caverns
3 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Battlefield Forge
Spells 7
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Stony Silence
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Worship
2 Declaration in Stone
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Celestial Purge
1 Cast out
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
You are right about the Rip & Cage. 3 Copies of GY hate seems like enough in the current meta.
I think MD Mirran Crusader are a bit excessive and we don't really need the help against DS to justify MD Crusader. Besides DS, Crusader is not too well positioned agaisnt the other T1 decks so I wouldn't want them in the main.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Still not sure how I feel about going WR, since finding Anger to make it in the bad matches hasn't really been consistent, as we don't have draw and the mana base is kind of painful.
BTW, this is my deck of choice right now.
Sure, we still have issues with CoCo Combo and Counters company decks, but they are only about 6% of the paper meta in the last two months and various non-creature combo decks that we have good games against have re-appeared. I am happy to fight Valakut, Storm, Living end, dredge and Ad Nauseum (~16%). Feel real fine against UWx Control (9% of the meta) and midrange and aggro (Burn, Affinity, Death's shadow, E-Tron (36%). Merfolk is about 1% of the live meta, Bant Spirits (my other deck of choice, highly under-rated, highly disruptive and a huge problem for the Creature Combo and other go-wide decks, but soft to Burn) and Hatebears\DnT combined is about 3-4%.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
Lands 25
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Gemstone Caverns
2 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Cast Out
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Worship
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Restoration Angel
1 Cast out
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
As always, thinking about how to keep the deck solid and still fight through the bad matches, which IMO are 1) Go Wide decks i.e. Merfolk, Spirits, GW Evolution, etc. and 2) GBx Mid-Range, thanks to them being Good Stuff hand destruction, removal, and value creatures that win the 1-for-1 game.
So what cards aren't that good in those matches that also aren't great in other matches? Targeted removal. Dismember and PtE just aren't great against decks that either get way beyond our limited removal and end up swinging back on us for a ton and we will never out-value GBx Mid-range.
Possible solutions?
Maindeck
Engineered Explosives. Drop targeted removal. 2 1-for-1's aren't that great and against the decks we over-power with creatures, removal is a nicety, not a necessity. Instead, go for board-wipe that hits all non-land permanents CMC 0-2. Not that the deck can't get 3 colors, but that seems sketchy even if we diversify our mana base (I think that would mean -2 Cavern of Souls, +2 Caves of Koilos, and maybe even -2 Plains for +2 more Caves.) And 0-2 wipe does major damage Game 1 to Affinity, Burn, Death's shadow, GBx mid-range, Merfolk, but also Elves, GW CoCo, and Lantern Control.
Aven Mindcensor in place of Thalia, Heretic Cathar. I like THC, but she is nowhere near as good versus Scapeshift/Primetime and Gifts Storm, both of which are exceedingly powerful, while hitting in the air, which is great with Worship versus Merfolk. Plus, she is better mana denial and I think that is really important at the moment.
I am thinking if there are any hate-lands we want to use, like Tec Edge or the new Field of Ruin, but I am not ready to go there yet.
Sideboard
Elspeth, sun's champion has always been excellent in the mid-range match. Blow up their board, or make a ton of chump blockers. I am going to test Settle the Wreckage, but wiping the board and leaving a permanent feels better in our deck. There's a reason Stabil0 used this a lot.
Ratchet Bomb as a 2-of. Maybe it ought to be EE 3 and 4, but I am not sure. Ratchet allows you to go bigger than EE can and sometimes you need that.
Kataki, War's Wage replacing Stony Silence. Stony is better versus Eldrazi Tron, but with Ratchet Bomb and EE, actually worse than Kataki against Affinity and Lantern. Use Resto and Elspeth against E-Tron.
Restoration Angel... my weird choice for the GBx mid-range matches. Resto has always been good against mid-range decks. It blank removal, makes a powerful 3/4 against planeswalkers, and has flash. Plus, against GBx Mid-range, just keep Chalice in, put it on 1 (Jund and Junk tend to run a LOT of 1 mana spells these days between Bolt, PtE, Thoughtseize, IoK, and Push.)
A lot of my sideboard thinking is driven by the question: how do we beat GBx mid-range? You don't beat them in the 1-for-1 game. You can't kill all of the Lilianas. Siege Rhino will resolve in multiple copies. Answers? Elspeth is great, Ratchet is for Souls tokens and cmc 2 creatures, and Resto helps blank their removal, never mind that Resto is a massive house with Displacer on the field (allows Displacer to protect itself.)
However, there is another issue: If we really are a Stax-type deck, then instants and sorceries are actually to be avoided. Artifact, Creature, Land, Enchantment, Planeswalker, i.e. the parade of taxing/sac-ing/exiling permanents. As a result, I am eliminating them as simply too narrow and not increasing our control of the board and our opponent's ability to actually do anything meaningful each turn.
FYI - If I am not doing this deck, it is Bant Spirits or Eldrazi Tron.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Also, I feel that thalia, heretic cathar is one of the ways we beat those creature mirrors as she's formidable in combat, while slowing their role and pushing through damage. She doesn't fix those MUs entirely, but she does a lot vs a lot of the field.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
RW definitely has some nice tools that I like, especially P+K and Eldrazi Obligator, but I am working on WW for now because I like the consistency of the manabase.
I put Mirran Crusader in back in August and WW proved way to hard to do turns 1 and 2 because we have Simian Spirit Guide. We need a W producing Spirit Guide. I went back to THC after about 10 games.
Blade Splicer is an interesting choice because it makes Liliana worse and it is really good with Eldrazi Displacer.
I am swapping THC for Aven Mindcensor at the moment because i want to go move mana denial and search hate. THC is a much better combat card, absolutely.
What is your list these days? Same as before?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Yeah, the mana being better is huge. I'm really looking forward to updating this decks SB with a certain W card coming out soon that helps aggro MUs
But this is where I was at the last time I was on mono W. http://www.streamdecker.com/deck/rJ4O_t2q-
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Interesting to see that your list has no Dismembers MD. I can see the appeal of EE but it seems quite narrow to me in multiples in the main. Against E-Tron and Grixis DS Dismembers are very good. And sometimes you need to kill a creature on t2 like against Storm / Creature combo. It' such an efficient answer and helps generating tempo which this deck can profit from.
I don't think that leaving out Dismembers completly is correct.
But a one of EE MD could be good.
I have been testing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board (in WB EnT) and I really liked it. I think that would be my choice against GBx at the moment.
Against the current meta with Storm and Valakut being T1 I would also want some Mindcensors somewhere in the 75 (probably the SB).
It will definitely be interesting to see if the new wrath turns out to be a good option. This would further boost mono W.
I admit, I am warping my build for my locals. I don't think I would go to an Open or GP or even a PPTQ without 2 Dismember main.
My locals:
Lantern control
Burn 2x
GW CoCo thing
Abzan Mid-range 2x
Jeskai Control 2x
Scapeshift 2x
Jund
Grixis Death's Shadow
Merfolk 2x
Esper Dragons (don't ask, it's terrible)
E-Tron
Affinity
In that list, I don't think that Dismember is very good except against DS and E-Tron.
Gideon is cool. 4 mana, make a problem every turn is pretty strong. I've used it in Legacy DnT as a sideboard card and it certainly makes the grade there. However, I am still in love with Elspeth until I get that 4 mana exile. I think it is actually a bad card, but I am determined to find a way to make it work (hence moving to Mindcensors as well.)
I won't get to play this week because of my work, so I'll let you know down the road how it went. Hopefully, I get some play-testing in this week anyway.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Ran below to a 2-1-1. I beat Naya Zoo and Scapeshift, and lost to Bant Eldrazi, but that match feels awkward and if that was the Eldrazi deck of choice, I think we would not play this build.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Matter Reshaper
2 Blade Splicer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Gemstone Caverns
2 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Battlefield Forge
Spells 7
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
1 Cast Out
2 Rest in Peace
2 Worship
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Stony Silence
2 Path to Exile
1 Cast out
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Blade Splicer felt fine. Didn't get to blink it much, but those were not matches where it was the thing to do except against Bant E and I mulliganed out of the match both games so who knows. Feels like a couple blinks and it is a house against Eldrazi with a bunch of 3/3 first strike tokens.
EDIT:
I am officially testing 1 Field of Ruin in place of 1 Gemstone Caverns. Given my current build, a 5th land destruction card is fine and it actually mana fixes us sometimes into a plains. It doesn't provide the "on the draw" acceleration that GC does, but I am not sure going from 3 to 2 is a huge drop, whereas the 5th GQ with 2 main deck Mindcensor is probably pretty good. Sadly it only hits non-basics, but I think that will rarely matter.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Blade Splicer
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Matter Reshaper
Lands 25
5 Plains
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Field of Ruin
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
1 Cast Out
2 Rest in Peace
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Stony Silence
2 Path to Exile
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Worship
1 Cast out
1 Celestial Purge
Not sure what I want the 15th sideboard card to be.
1 Worship because two feels excessive with 2 Settle the Wreckage.
2 (Cast Out) to deal with opposing non-land permanents.
2 Stony and 1 Kataki, whcih is plenty of artifact hate.
1 Cage for CoCo/Chord decks.
2 Eidolon for Combo and Control decks.
2 PtE for deck where Chalice is bad or should be on 0/2 (Affinity, Eldrazi, Merfolk, Storm, etc.)
2 "Settle the Wreckage" for go wide decks, to complement PtE.
2 RiP and 1 Cage for graveyard decks.
So what is a worthwhile 1-of? Celestial Purge and Blessed Alliance come to mind first. I am going to try Purge because it deals with permanents as such.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I also think that BW EnT is a good deck atm (I like 4 Bobs, 0 Smasher versions). Regular DnT is a bit underpowered in the current meta IMO.
If you like flicker tricks and tricky lines of play than EnT/DnT is probably more for you. If you like slamming TKS, Arbiter, Smasher and Chalice as early as possible and to lock people out this version here will do the trick.
Scapeshift/PrimeTime has gone down in frequency at my locals, largely replaced by GBx midrange, so going back to Matter Reshaper in place of Aven Mindcensor seems like the right move. Reshaper is simply better against midrange and aggro strategies.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
That touches on something I've been pondering. D&T has always appealed to me, but I've likewise felt it was underpowered -- it feels a little too fair and I'm usually hoping to just get there. After bouncing between a few other decks, I've been tinkering with this and plain Colorless Stompy (albeit w/o Chalice). How do you feel the two compare? In my dozen or so matches with both, Stompy has seemed more explosive but with more holes (Storm, Affinity, and the like). Again, not playing with Chalice in either (yet) so that may impact my perception. Thoughts from those that have played both?
I agree with your last post. What's your impression on settle the wreckage? (If you have tested it).
@Darkest_before_dawn
I like both decks quite a bit. The eldrazi Stompy deck is more of a pure aggro deck. You have limited ways of interacting but can be more explosive mostly due to Eldrazi Mimic and your increased consistency of finding Temple. Your SB options are quite limited. DnS offers you more ways of interacting. In the main you play Arbiter, Thalia and Displacer and obviously the SB gives you way more options. If you like brewing and adapting DnS has more room for it. Best example; the post above you by redtwister. He feels like the meta is shifting so he adapts his decklist. In stompy this is less possible. DnS has the lockout aspect (Arbiter + GQ and Thalia) which Stompy is missing. So this is also a question of taste. I feel like DnS has more play to it. You have to decide when to go for resource denial and when to go for Aggro, and Displacer(+TKS) gives you many options. It is less reliant on Temple but the payoff from Temple is also smaller since you don't play only Eldrazis. The Stompy deck seems better at grinding to me because of SGW and the post board Relic Scourge combo. It also goldfishes faster. Stompy is probably the incrementally more powerful deck while DnS lets you tune for a certain meta / is better positioned if Thalia and Arbiter are good in the meta.
As you see by the discussion in the Stompy thread, a Stompy version without Chalice is viable (even though probably suboptimal). I have not played a DnS version without Chalice and am sceptical about it.
As for further inputs: Spiderspace has a Twitch account (Sspiderspace) where he quite regularly streams DnS. He is a very good player and this is a premium resource to see the deck in action. But IDK if the old videos are still available. kponceMTG used to stream this deck a bit but without Chalice (replacing them and SSG for Path and Thraben Inspector). This is a suboptimal version IMO and I also like his plays less than Spiders. But it could interest you since he is not playing Chalice either. The only video I know of for Stompy is by Corbin Hosler where he suboptimally plays the deck. Still ok to watch.
Hope this helps for your decision.
Haven't gotten many games in with Settle yet, so for now it is a theory-craft tech. Feels like it ought to be better than anything else because it doesn't hurt our board and sometimes we even have Arbiter out, plus most decks don't really play that many basics among the decks where we would bring it in, except Merfolk, and some extra basics won't save them if we blow them out.
@Darkest_before_dawn
The big advantages of DnS seem to me to be:
1. Powerful turn 1/2 openings to create a bad state for your opponent immediately. Dropping Chalice, Thalia, or Arbiter, and sometimes even Reshaper/THC/Displacer/other 3 drop or TKS turn 1 simply destroys a lot of decks, but especially aggro decks with lots of cmc 1 cards (Death's Shadow, Burn, Naya Aggro, Affinity, etc.), non-creature combo decks and control.
2. White sideboard cards because that is the best color (ask Eldrazi Tron players if they would like to be able to run Rest in Peace!)
3. Powerful openings to be aggressive (see #1).
4. Top deck power. Reality Smasher, 'nuff said.
5. As Stabil0 noted, deck flexibility. In the CMC 3 spot for WW, Aven Mindcensor, Thalia, Heretic Cathar (aka THC aka Mary Jane aka Frank), Matter Reshaper, and Blade Splicer are all fine choices. Reshaper and THC are the default go-to cards because they do things we want to do early: turn 1/2 3/2 that gets a replacement card when it dies or mana disruption on a 3/2 first striker.
The disadvantages, however, are there.
1. Weak to "go-wide" and creature combo decks. Company/Chord and decks like Merfolk and Bant Spirits can be problematic. Hence the constant discussion on this thread of finding a viable sweeper and running Worship.
2. Weak to flyers. See Bant Spirits but also stupid Lingering Souls tokens.
3. Mid-range decks, IMO. A deck full of good stuff, tons of removal, hand disruption, etc. is hard to beat. We really need to have a fast start, otherwise they will often out-grind us.
4. The possibility of explosive starts goes hand in hand with the possibility of slow starts and this is where I feel the mid-range match is bad because their slow start includes hand distruption, ways to blow up Chalice, etc. In a fair vs. fair match, I think we are a lot like DnT in Legacy when they don't start with a Vial: all of our pieces are just a bit weaker and slower and we can get picked apart, without having much draw to pull us out of it.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Cheers for both your responses! Very helpful. From playing a few matches with both, I've seen evidence of the strengths/weaknesses you describe. D&S fits my play style a little more so I'm inclined to focus on it, but the struggles against midrange are real (even with a trio of Splicers in the mix). For now I'll probably keep them both "sleeved up" on MTGO since I broke down and bought the playset of Chalice.
Here's the list I'm running in the Modern Challenge:
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Wastes
7 Plains
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Shefet Dunes
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Blade Splicer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Dismember
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
1 Declaration in Stone
There's congestion at the 3 drop spot without a Temple in play, which definitely hurts in the match-ups where a fast/curved start is needed (e.g. BGx).
Yeah in theory it looks pretty sweet to me as well.
@darkest_before_dawn
Personally I have not had the same experiences with midrange (If we are speaking BGx). Most of our threats are just pretty good on their own. Try to play around Liliana, it's their best card, and keep hands that are more value oriented than all in /speed oriented (if possible ). Midrange in a Knightfall style is more problematic IMO.
And for your SB I would personally not play Blessed Alliance. We are too much of an aggro and tapp-out deck for it to really fit. Also Spatial and Needle are cards I'm fine playing in Stompy but would rather replace in DnS since we have more options available. But obviously if you like them just go with them.
I agree with Stabil0's points on how to play against them (essentially, as a better mid-range beat down deck, rather than as a an aggressive prison deck.) I think I have problems with them because I tend to vomit my hand, instead of playing out a threat and sitting back and forcing them to respond. Not like either deck has draw action. Also, if they have to deal with RiP and Chalice with their Abrupt Decays, we can strain their ability to deal with us.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I'm caught in two minds with this deck. It seems very dependent on a quick, disruptive start followed by just enough pressure to capitalize. In games where Thalia, Arbiter, and Chalice are highly impactful, it feels smooth. The occasional double Temple hands are explosive and even a single one can be great. But it feels like there's a decent percentage of the time where my hand is just a turn too slow (e.g. no Temple, a Thalia/Arbiter that's immediately removed, and maybe one of Smasher/TKS). Once the game turns a little grindy, our threats don't have evasion and can be outclassed, we have no draw, and there's not many ways to outvalue an opponent sans Displacer shenanigans. For example, I'm not really sure how to play around LoTV other than not running a creature into an empty board when it will likely get edicted. I'm not sure that's a "winning" line so much as a "less losing" line -- we're already actively giving up CA with some of our card choices and there's not really a bail out card short of a Smasher at 4+ lands. If you're just a little mana-flooded or starved, things get ugly too.
There's definitely a few things I can do to improve my odds. Like Stabil0 mentions prioritizing a value-oriented opener vs explosiveness would help and my SB is far from tuned. I'm wondering if there's a way to apply more pressure though (via evasion or disruption). Quite a few D&T matches boil down to flyers scraping through or a flicker clearing a troublesome blocker. Or I'd love a Blade Splicer at 2 CMC that gives a 2/2 body to better fit the non-Temple curve. Maybe splashing another color for more punch. I have a loose idea for a BW version although that may drop the taxers. Anyone else have similar experiences? Suggestions on changes to consider?
A couple more notes:
You don't have enough lands and your mix is suboptimal for a blend of waste and white. I think 4 Battlefield Forge and 25 linds is pretty essential. Yes, you sometimes get flooding, but better flood than screw. That's also why two of the 25 at least need to be Horizon Canopy.
You also can't overload the non-Eldrazi cmc 3 spot. Basically there are 5 slots there: Some combination of Reshaper/THC/Mindcensor/Splicer, etc. 3 Reshaper allow you to take advantage of Eldrazi Temple.
Sideboard cards I consider more or less mandatory:
2-3 Stony Silence
2-3 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 Worship
1-2 Cast Out
Everything else is negotiable, but that is less than you would expect. I tend towards the lower number, so I use up 9 spots immediately. Lots of great suggestions in the other 12 pages of the thread.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Followed the gist of this, just not the numbers. You're suggesting 3 Reshaper + 2 from the THC/Mindcensor/Splicer? Ostensibly those two slots become the missing land mentioned above.
Appreciate the feedback! I'm sure I can cobble together a more useful SB from suggestions and my experience once I look at it again. Usually I focus on finding a 60 I like first, then try to fill the weaknesses in the last 15.
Stray thought -- I wonder if there's a way to keep the manabase functional while pushing more land destruction a la Field of Ruin and more Mindcensors. I may give that a shot at some point.
Most of my game 1 losses to aggro are for a lack of sweepers. I don't get nearly as much value from Dismember as I did when the format was Infect-heavy. In fact, the life loss on top of the iffyness of only 3 1-for-1 removal spells has been quite bad. I want a sweeper, but I don't want one that is just dead in my hand, and my solution is Sweltering Suns because of "cycle 3". It isn't an elegant draw spell, but it is a draw spell that uses mana when we flood to dig deeper.
Where I do have to deal with bigger creatures, I also prefer a card I have used to great effect: Eldrazi Obligator. Stealing their threat and beating them with it is huge, and also very powerful against opposing planeswalkers. 5 mana to steal an opposing threat and have a 3/1 haste creature has worked for me, but It was always a 1-of. I think I want a 3-of.
Cast Out remains my 1-of main for sheer utility.
Sideboard, I think I want some traditional cards (Worship, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Grafdigger's Cage, but also some additional sweepers for permanents, in the form of Ratchet Bomb and maybe Settle the Wreckage or just 1-2 more Sweltering Suns or even Anger of the Gods.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is also a sweeper that is a finisher that is exceptionally good against mid-range decks.
If we go up in sweepers, then the real question has to be, where is the value of Path to Exile? Aside from Storm, where is it really key (and I would argue that our best weapons against Storm are still creatures Thalia, Eidolon, TKS and non-removal spells, namely RiP, Cage, Chalice)? Against Affinity, Elves, Spirits, and Merfolk, I want sweepers and I don't want to give them land unless I am blowing them out. Against non-ramp mid-range, I want Elspeth, often RiP, Obligator and Cast Out. Against CoCo and ramp decks I want sweepers, Ratchet Bomb, Grafdigger's Cage, and more sweepers.
I know this might not work and it might be madness, but there is a method to my madness and I am laying it out here for you.
On mana, we have gone over this before. Thanks to Simian Spirit Guide, red is our best splash for consistency. I am also torn between 2 Aether Hub and a split 1 Aether Hub/1 manland, either Needle Spires or Mutavault, though I am inclined to Spires for r/w mana and 2/1 double strike. Obviously harder to activate and comes in tapped, so it could be bad sometimes, but as a 1-of, I am going to probably try it.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Reality Smasher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Eldrazi Obligator
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Lands (25)
3 Plains
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Aether Hub
1 Needle Spires
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Rugged Prairie
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Inspiring Vantage
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sweltering Suns
1 Cast out
3 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sweltering Suns
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Cast out
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Worship
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.