I don't play online at all, so I can't quite track my results as clearly. I believe from the last 3 tournaments, I am 8-3-1, so 66% win, 25% loss, ~9% draw.
This deck plays a bit like DnT in Legacy, in that I believe the skill threshold is quite high because the decision trees are difficult and correct sideboarding per each match is quite complicated.
For example, last night I knew the 'Grixis" DS player I lost to was in fact 4C, splashing white for Disenchant and PtE. He had one land in play and a fetch that would get him b/w mana, his only white source. I ran Chalice on 1 into it and he blew it up, whereas if I had cast Rest in Peace and force him to Disenchant that, I could have GQ'd his only W source, then Chalice on 1 the next turn. Of course, this is not without risks, but we need to be patient and often they are not as quick out of the gate as we think.
That said, if our collective win rate is ~66%, that is quite good. Modern is a very open and complicated format where suddenly UWx control is a thing again alongside Affinity, Grixis/Jund/Esper Death Shadow, Burn, Abzan Company, Vizier Company, Merfolk, Bant Spirits, GR and GW Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Cheerios, Ironworks combo, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Living End, Storm, Ad Nauseum and a few other decks all capable of wining an Open. Even if only 5-6 of those are really Tier 1, if we don't include all of the variants, that is a lot to contend with and still average 66%.
I know every deck faces this, but unlike a lot of the decks, our decision tree is highly reactive, though to many people it may not seem that way ("Oh yeah, just play Chalice, Thalia, TKS, Smasher, how hard is that?"), especially as we are generally a "tap out" deck.
We have come up with some solid decisions in the manabase, even if that is even more at issue than the sideboard, which allow us to address some of the grievous mismatches that should incrementally increase our win-loss ration over time. I think my interest right now is not with that ratio mixing the WW and Wr build together, but separating them out and seeing if there is a difference in ratios between them. I lack data because I have only played Merfolk since I went Wr, as far as go-wide decks are concerned. Continued tweaking may or may not get us much further.
Personally, I don't think we can manage the life-loss of 4 Foundry, 4 Forge, 3 Dismember, 2 Horizon Canopy in the absence of lifegain, and I don't think lifegain cards are viable for us unless we switch removal to Blessed Alliance in the main, which seems not great. I say this especially because I expect a ton of burn at the Baltimore Open, not just because it is cheap and a n00b staple, but because it is very well-positioned for top-tier players if the main opponents are DS Aggro, Affinity, Eldrazi Tron and GR Tron with some combo.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I have never played with crucible, only against it, so I don't have too much experience. It seems quite slow to me though. Without Fetchlands it doesn't help you make your land drops either. It only does something with GQ and Canopy - that's 6 cards only. And even then it has to go for multiple turns to be worth it. This card always looks like a "win more trap" to me. Against UW this might still be good - IDK.
Same goes for defense grid. They can sorcery speed their removal so it's mostly against counters. But there is not enough counterspells to be worth the inclusion IMO.
But as I said I have not tested them. They might very well be better than I think.
I think I would simply go for Planeswalkers. Gideon, Elspeth(s) maybe new Chandra? Or maybe Batterskull. Chandra seems kinda sweet actually.
I can definitely see the fourth foundry over Inspiring Vantage. I think one Prairie might be ok but two seems like too much to me.
I am not sure about Inspiring Vantage or Cavern of Souls at this point. It may just be that another Plains and another Aether Hub would be better than 1 Cavern and 1 Vantage.
I would love to see a general SBing guide for this deck. I know there's a couple of difference variations now and a lot of decks to write it up for, so the task is quite frankly pretty huge, but sideboarding is one of the most difficult aspects of the deck. I feel like I'm decently well versed with the deck and I still make SBing mistakes.
As this is such a large task, I'd be happy to try to help put one together if there's anything I could do.
And I agree that the crucible does seem to be a bit of a win more trap however that can be fun haha
I hate and love anger! I have lost so many games with it in my hand unable to cast it but at the same time it would have easily taken control of the game if I was able to - I'm very tempted to try firespout even though I know it's not as good I'm usually going to be boarding in cage and rip in the same matchups.
I'm so excited to play this deck at the open I really hope someone can put up a good finish with it for the forum!
I am not a huge sideboarding guide fan if the "guide" is tailored to a specific build, but I would suggest something like this using the match data from post 86. Creature Toolbox Combo covers at least 3 different decks, but we fight them the same way. Also, this is obviously incomplete, fix/correct/add as needed.
I also kind of put the cards in order of how good they are under each area, based on my take of the consensus we seem to have reached on the boards (e.g. PtE is the recognized "must-have" targeted creature removal SB card.)
Artifact and Enchantment Hate: Stony Silence: Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Lantern Control, Ironworks Combo, Ad Nauseam Wear // Tear: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes Disenchant: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes
Semi-universal Targeted Removal: Cast Out: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control, Jund Celestial Purge: Sun and Moon, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Burn, Grixis Control Oblivion Ring: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control
Graveyard Hate: Rest in Peace: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Living End, Death's Shadow Aggro, UW Control, Jund, Goryo Reanimator, Grixis Control Grafdigger's Cage: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Elves, Sun and Moon, Goryo Reanimator
Planeswalkers: Nahiri, the Harbinger: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Death's Shadow Aggro Elspeth, Sun's champion: UW Control, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Jund, Mid-range Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
Now, if someone wanted to also add a list of cards to take out from the main in what matches, then I think we have a complete way to think about it, without making a list that only applies to a specific sideboard.
I think these are the most commonly removed cards from the deck because they are often either excellent or terrible:
Leonin Arbiter: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Affinity, Dredge, Burn, Reanimator, Storm, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo(?), Death's Shadow Aggro, Affinity, Elves, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Bant Eldrazi Matter Reshaper: Ad Nauseam, Affinity, Elves, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Grixis Control, Storm, UWr Kiki Control Chalice of the Void: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron (on the draw), Tron (on the draw), Scapeshift, Amulet Titan (on the draw), Sun and Moon, Jund, Dismember: UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Dredge, Reanimator, Gemstone Caverns: On the play vs. ??
Yeah a SB guide would be sweet. Definitely helpful. It would also be very interesting to discuss some keep/mull as I think this is one of the trickiest parts of the deck. Especially post board.
Since SBs and metas are in constant shift I think it's best to just look at the current version (red white) since the older ones are already a bit outdated. In the end it's probably just going to be a meta question to splash red or not.
I'm pretty busy atm so I don't really have time. Maybe in a week I could do it.
I would probably just take a look at all the T1 and T2 decks and some special ones from T3 and untiered: https://www.mainphasemtg.net/modern-tier-list/2017/5/15/modern-tiered-list-weekly-update-and-analysis-for-51517
Since jack wilds mentionend some difficulties casting Anger - how has it worked out for the others? Personally I didn't find time to test too much but it wasn't too much of a concern to me. I don't recall having mana problems (besides Rugged Prairie).
EDIT: Nicly done Redtwister! Thx for that, appreciate the effort
(I don't necessarily agree everywhere - I will post my approaches in the near future.)
So from the top of my head this are some things I would do differently:
It's difficult to say because it always depends on the number of other cards I want to bring in or out. For example Mincensor is not bad against DS, I wouldn't be unhappy to play it post board, but if he is actually better than other cards depends on how much space you have left to side. So therefore these are more inputs and it changes with each SB and MD configuartion. You can also bring in some number of paths against Titan shift for example if you have too much space. But I still listed it here because it's not something I actually want in this MU.
In:
Path not against: Tron, Titan shift, Sun and Moon but against Jund
Dec in Stone against Dredge
Blessed Alliance not against Grixis Control, Journey neither
Stance not against Bant Spirits
Anger not against Bant Eldrazi
Wear/Tear and Disenchant not against Tron or DnT but against Ad Nauseam
Celestial Purge and RIP against Abzan
Celestial Purge against Storm
Mindcensor maybe only against DS Jund and not DS grixis
Worship really depends. For example against Elves if they saw Chalice g1 then I wouldn't bring it in. If not then I would. But I wouldn't bring it in against DnT (Flickerwisp)
Torpor Orb not against Dredge and Elves (maybe against the gb version with Shaman of the pack)
Nahiri not against Tron but against Jund and Abzan
Out:
I would keep Arbiter against Burn, Storm and Reanimator.
I would keep Reshaper against Grixis Control
I would always side out Chalice against Eldrazi Tron but keep it play or draw against Tron.
Dismember comes out against Burn.
I generally tend to take out a Gemstone against (slower) decks on the play when I need the space in the deck. If I don't need the space then I leave it in.
round 1 vs. 8whack Goblins 2-1
EE clear his board game 2, stabilize with a beater, THC slows his roll hard. He just can't get through my guys game 3 before they get through him. Displacer and THC were straight heroes. Won without seeing chalice, very surprised.
round 2 vs. Burn 2-1
chalice, thalia, TKS
round 3 vs. Living end 0-2
game 1, he is on the play, he cycles, I don't comprehend what is going on, on my turn I put chalice on 1, look at the card in his graveyard and realize my mistake. No more Chalices, no wins. Game 2 I mulligan to a horrid 5 card hand, but it has Chalice and I hope to draw lands. I don't. Play Torpor Orb against them, it shuts off all of their artifact and enchantment hate, which is all creature-based ETB except for Beast Within. The new cyclers are stupid powerful, btw. If they Living End, we just lose now.
round 4 vs. Abzan Midrange 2-0
Not sure what was going on with him, I had good draws and mana denial, I don't think he saw Rhino either game.
round 5 vs. Burn 2-0
chalice, thalia, TKS
round 6 vs. Grixis Death's Shadow 2-1
Second best match of the day, best win. Game 1, he has no board, taps out all three lands looking for answers. I have plains, Forge, GQ in play. I peel Leonin Arbiter, play a second GQ and double Strip Mine him and it is over. His eye literally twitched. Game 2, he does the DS thing. Game 3, I am on the play, play my second land with Aven Mindcensor in hand and SSG. I pass, he goes to fetch, I land Mindcensor, he does't find a land. Next turn I play chalice on 1 and ride Mindcensor for a few turns, he is dead in the water, casting spells into Chalice in order to delve Tasigur. I cast TKS in response. He holds Tasigur on defense. I peel Cast Out off the top with 6 damage on the field, take out his Tasigur and finish him with Mindcensor and TKS in two turns. He takes the match slip and pushes it at me with both hands and tosses his pen at my mat. I tell him he didn't sign, and he just rips a line across the signature. I went from feeling good about my win to enjoying making him cry like a baby because he was such a poor loser.
round 7 feature match vs. Eli Kassis on Company Counters 0-2
He romped me. Game 1, I drew 5 lands in a row and no beaters or removal, so I could not race him in the end. Very long game, and if I didn't flood, i could have won since he was at 6 and I was at 9. Just give a brother a Smasher, am I right? I had Chalice on 2, which I think locked him up from the combo win. Game 2, he combos on turn 4. Very, very nice guy, classy player. Really enjoyed the beating.
round 8 vs. 5 Color Mantis Rider?? 2-1
Best match of the day. His deck plays one Forest and all the lands that only make colored mana for multi-color creatures. 3rd game, he has me at 1, I have 3 creatures in play and lethal on board, but he has Mantis Rider and 3 mana dorks (he has been doing 5 damage a turn on double Noble hierarchMantis Rider. I have Cast Out and 4 lands, including a plains. He attacks (I want him to commit in case he has another one), I Cast Out his Rider. GG.
round 9 vs. Abzan Midrange 0-2
I hateSiege Rhino. Who thought a 4/5 with Lightning Helix for 4 mana was reasonable? It was like losing to a better version of the same crap deck from standard (4 Push, 4 PtE, several Abrupt decay, mana dorks, and the new Liliana.) I had double Leonin Arbiter into Ghost Quarters and I could not keep him off mana game 1 and then he drew 3 Siege Rhinos in a row. Game 2 was Tarmogoyf and Siege Rhino after Siege Rhino with a Liliana -2 to get Siege Rhino back from the graveyard to kill me. I really wish I had had the second Torpor Orb in this match. Not sure if siding out chalice was right against this deck, with all of their 1 mana spells, but Rhino/Goyf/Liliana is what kills you. Also, never found RiP, cast Out, PtE, or Orb, which hurt a lot.
The only thing I hate more than combo is mid-range. Use all your mana, play the best creatures and removal and hand destruction in your colors. No synergy, no interaction, just a glorified Timmy deck.
Aside from the Living End match, I think I didn't make many actual in game play mistakes; nothing obvious at least. Maybe something against Kassis, but that match just felt really bad if you don't find all your removal, which I did not. Maybe I could have mulliganed more aggressively against Abzan, but you don't want to be on 5 against a Thoughtseize deck.
Regarding your losses, Living End makes sense. That deck absolutely folds when we get our bullets, but it's got better tech now from Amonkhet.
What is Company Counters? Collected Company + Druid combo stuff?
Abzan Midrange looks like an outlier - even with 4 Siege Rhinos it's a winnable match-up. Looks like he literally got all of the cards he wanted and you didn't. Wouldn't feel bad about losing those at all. Still a great showing and you're still tracking at your 66% win rate in super competitive environments!
Hi Redtwister,
Aside from the times when you just didn't draw enough lands or got land flooded, how did the Mana base feel? I know inspiring vantage fell out of favor with spiderspace, but how did your land mix feel?
For DSx decks, do you guys side chalice out and path in or not? I often feel like I want path, but that chalice is also great against them, but both seems greedy. Thoughts?
For me, I often end up with chalice still in on the play, but out on the draw.
Mana base was great. I had the usual issues with mana that a deck with no draw or filtering has, but color was really never a problem. I think I misplayed lands 2x, but that was my fault with land sequencing, not the mana.
RE: DSx and Chalice, I absolutely never side out Chalice of the Void. I brought in Cast Out, EE, and Nahiri.
EDIT: This is the deck and player I lost to in round 9, I believe. It is definitely the list.
@SpiderSpace
I always keep all the chalice play or draw. If I bring in path depends on the DS version. Against Grixis I leave in a couple of Dismember and I don't bring in path. Against Jund I take out all the Dismember and I might bring a path or two. You don't want to get stuck on multiple paths with chalice but having a copy or two in your deck seems ok to me (following the logic that with Chalice on 1 you are probably winning anyway even with one copy of path to exile in your hand, if the destroy chalice then your path gets active again).
I modified the In sets, with the following exceptions:
"Wear/Tear and Disenchant not against Tron or DnT but against Ad Nauseam" - I disagree on DnT because they run Worship or Ghostly Prison, plus Vial, so it is worth it.
"Torpor Orb not against Dredge and Elves (maybe against the gb version with Shaman of the pack)" - I like orb vs. Dredge because it turns off Prized Amalgam, Haunted dead, and Scourge Devil. Also, Shaman of the Pack Elves are all that I have seen. I would prefer Grafdigger's Cage, but Cage is useless against Living End, Abzan Mid, Kiki, BW EnT, and other ETB decks (Merfolk, Spirits, basically non-CoCo/Chord go wide decks)
After thinking more about my Abzan loss and their list, I think we want both Thalias all games, plus Chalices on the play, but not on the draw. They run 14 1-drops against us and they want to be mana efficient to play turn 3 Liliana X, plus Thalia + Thalia blocks all of their creatures with 5x first strike. Both Thalias also are super blockers for Scooze and Grim Flayer, especially if you can RiP. The problem is what to take out. You need Dismember as a necessary evil, but on the draw you want PtE, Cast Out, and Nahiri. If you don't run Torpor Orb, Displacer is... complicated. You don't want to ever Displacer Rhino, but it protects our guys and let's us deal with Goyf and Flayer and save removal for Rhino. Arbiter is a bad blocker and it isn't easy to mana screw them anyway, GQs are mostly hitting man lands.
Planeswalkers: Nahiri, the Harbinger: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Abzan Mid Elspeth, Sun's champion: UW Control, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Jund, Abzan Mid-range Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
OUT: Leonin Arbiter: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Affinity, Dredge, 8Whack, Abzan Mid Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo(?), Death's Shadow Aggro, Affinity, Elves, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Bant Eldrazi, 8Whack, Matter Reshaper: Ad Nauseam, Affinity, Elves, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Storm, UWr Kiki Control Chalice of the Void: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo, Bant Eldrazi, Tron (on the draw), Scapeshift, Amulet Titan (on the draw), Sun and Moon, Jund, Abzan Mid (on the draw) Dismember: UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Dredge, Reanimator, Burn, 8Whack, 8 Rack Gemstone Caverns: take out a Gemstone against (slower) decks on the play when you need the space in the deck. Otherwise leave it in.
Anyone play Skred Red? Seems really bad, as they are "Basic Mountain-Blood Moon.dec". Went 3-1 tonight (Beat Grixis Delver, Affinity, Tron, lost to Skred.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@redtwister
You are definitely right about Torpor Orb against Dredge. I totally missed that it stops Amalgam.
I still probably wouldn't bring Wear Tear without seeing Worship against DnT. It is not that common of a SB card, even if some like to run it. But that also depends on the version they are playing. Against WB EnT it seems better since they run Tidehollow Sculler. I can see either way be alright.
I have played against GW Elves but that might not actually be that common.
Against this Abzan list I would not bring in Torpor Orb though. They only run 3 Rhinos as targets. But I would bring EE on the play and draw.
I will put your SB guide in the primer if you don't mind.
Yeah skred Red isn't great for us. We are definitely the aggressor. Thalia is good as is Smasher and TKS. Celestial Purge helps from the board.
@Stabil0
Sure, awesome that the SB stuff is useful.
Agreed on Abzan Rhino; once I saw the list, I realized how bad that would be.
I was definitely missing Celestial Purge. Can I get a 20 card sideboard, WOTC? Pls???
EDIT: Looks a bit like a pure midrange BW Eldrazi deck won the GP Kobe in Japan. It might be interesting to think about how our deck varies from Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, and this. I really think we are a totally different deck from those, which are sort of pure mid-range decks. This one is the closest I have seen to Eldrazi playing the Jund or Abzan Midrange game (with with a ton of 1-for-1 removal and hand destruction.) Eldrazi Tron and Bant are mostly "ramp into efficient 3-5cmc creatures" mid-range decks, though Eldrazi Tron does slide into elements of prison.
So given the amount of R we now have, I am back to considering replacements for Matter Reshaper. Here's my list of possibles:
#1 Eldrazi Obligator: 3/1 haste that can be later game Act of Treason, plus we can cast it with Eldrazi Temple turn 2. My personal favorite and it is hateful once you have the mana for the kicker, which is also a cast trigger, not an ETB trigger, so you can do things like steal a Walking Ballista before they can kill Obligator, or force them to use it up on you immediately.
#2 Pyrewild Shaman: 3/1, can be used as a pump, and can also go back to your hand from the graveyard.
#3 Bloodmad Vampire: 4/1, which is huge, and it gets bigger each time it hits. Also, great against Liliana of the Veil and discard because of Madness.
RW creatures stink (well, we can't really expect to cast Boros Reckoner, which would otherwise be a delight.)
I think Eldrazi Obligator is fantastic. Very aggressive, easy to cast on turn 2, but also easy to use late game to steal wins and I am going to take 2-3 out for a spin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@redtwister
Missed your Edit last time. I agree with you. This BW Eldrazi deck really is very close to traditional Jund.
Aggro: Eldrazi Stompy
Aggro Disruption: DnS
Midrange: BW Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, BW EnT
early lategame: Eldrazi Tron
This deck plays a bit like DnT in Legacy, in that I believe the skill threshold is quite high because the decision trees are difficult and correct sideboarding per each match is quite complicated.
For example, last night I knew the 'Grixis" DS player I lost to was in fact 4C, splashing white for Disenchant and PtE. He had one land in play and a fetch that would get him b/w mana, his only white source. I ran Chalice on 1 into it and he blew it up, whereas if I had cast Rest in Peace and force him to Disenchant that, I could have GQ'd his only W source, then Chalice on 1 the next turn. Of course, this is not without risks, but we need to be patient and often they are not as quick out of the gate as we think.
That said, if our collective win rate is ~66%, that is quite good. Modern is a very open and complicated format where suddenly UWx control is a thing again alongside Affinity, Grixis/Jund/Esper Death Shadow, Burn, Abzan Company, Vizier Company, Merfolk, Bant Spirits, GR and GW Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Cheerios, Ironworks combo, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Living End, Storm, Ad Nauseum and a few other decks all capable of wining an Open. Even if only 5-6 of those are really Tier 1, if we don't include all of the variants, that is a lot to contend with and still average 66%.
I know every deck faces this, but unlike a lot of the decks, our decision tree is highly reactive, though to many people it may not seem that way ("Oh yeah, just play Chalice, Thalia, TKS, Smasher, how hard is that?"), especially as we are generally a "tap out" deck.
We have come up with some solid decisions in the manabase, even if that is even more at issue than the sideboard, which allow us to address some of the grievous mismatches that should incrementally increase our win-loss ration over time. I think my interest right now is not with that ratio mixing the WW and Wr build together, but separating them out and seeing if there is a difference in ratios between them. I lack data because I have only played Merfolk since I went Wr, as far as go-wide decks are concerned. Continued tweaking may or may not get us much further.
Personally, I don't think we can manage the life-loss of 4 Foundry, 4 Forge, 3 Dismember, 2 Horizon Canopy in the absence of lifegain, and I don't think lifegain cards are viable for us unless we switch removal to Blessed Alliance in the main, which seems not great. I say this especially because I expect a ton of burn at the Baltimore Open, not just because it is cheap and a n00b staple, but because it is very well-positioned for top-tier players if the main opponents are DS Aggro, Affinity, Eldrazi Tron and GR Tron with some combo.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I have never played with crucible, only against it, so I don't have too much experience. It seems quite slow to me though. Without Fetchlands it doesn't help you make your land drops either. It only does something with GQ and Canopy - that's 6 cards only. And even then it has to go for multiple turns to be worth it. This card always looks like a "win more trap" to me. Against UW this might still be good - IDK.
Same goes for defense grid. They can sorcery speed their removal so it's mostly against counters. But there is not enough counterspells to be worth the inclusion IMO.
But as I said I have not tested them. They might very well be better than I think.
I think I would simply go for Planeswalkers. Gideon, Elspeth(s) maybe new Chandra? Or maybe Batterskull. Chandra seems kinda sweet actually.
I can definitely see the fourth foundry over Inspiring Vantage. I think one Prairie might be ok but two seems like too much to me.
BTW, THAT WIN AGAINST VIZIER!!! Holy cow!!
Side note on Nahiri and Affinity: she exiles their tapped artifact lands. Very relevant.
Also, current manabase:
I am not sure about Inspiring Vantage or Cavern of Souls at this point. It may just be that another Plains and another Aether Hub would be better than 1 Cavern and 1 Vantage.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
As this is such a large task, I'd be happy to try to help put one together if there's anything I could do.
Thoughts?
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
And I agree that the crucible does seem to be a bit of a win more trap however that can be fun haha
I hate and love anger! I have lost so many games with it in my hand unable to cast it but at the same time it would have easily taken control of the game if I was able to - I'm very tempted to try firespout even though I know it's not as good I'm usually going to be boarding in cage and rip in the same matchups.
I'm so excited to play this deck at the open I really hope someone can put up a good finish with it for the forum!
I also kind of put the cards in order of how good they are under each area, based on my take of the consensus we seem to have reached on the boards (e.g. PtE is the recognized "must-have" targeted creature removal SB card.)
Sideboarding
Targeted Creature Removal:
Path to Exile: Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Mirror, Eldrazi Tron, Tron (on the draw), Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Titan Shift, Storm, Sun and Moon, Goryo Reanimator, Amulet Titan, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Blessed Alliance: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Valorous Stance: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Journey to Nowhere: Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Declaration in Stone: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Wrath:
Anger of the Gods: Affinity, Bant Eldrazi(?), Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Engineered Explosives: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Merfolk, Infect, Burn, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Ratchet Bomb: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Merfolk, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Artifact and Enchantment Hate:
Stony Silence: Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Lantern Control, Ironworks Combo, Ad Nauseam
Wear // Tear: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes
Disenchant: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes
Semi-universal Targeted Removal:
Cast Out: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control, Jund
Celestial Purge: Sun and Moon, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Burn, Grixis Control
Oblivion Ring: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control
Graveyard Hate:
Rest in Peace: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Living End, Death's Shadow Aggro, UW Control, Jund, Goryo Reanimator, Grixis Control
Grafdigger's Cage: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Elves, Sun and Moon, Goryo Reanimator
Miscellaneous Tech:
Aven Mindcensor: Creature Toolbox Combo, Titan Shift, Scapeshift, Death's Shadow Aggro
Worship: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Merfolk, Burn, Scapeshift, Titan Shift, Spirits, Amulet Titan, Ur Gifts Storm, Bant Spirits
Torpor Orb: UWr Kiki Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Titan Shift, Dredge, Bant Spirits
Planeswalkers:
Nahiri, the Harbinger: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Death's Shadow Aggro
Elspeth, Sun's champion: UW Control, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Jund, Mid-range
Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
Now, if someone wanted to also add a list of cards to take out from the main in what matches, then I think we have a complete way to think about it, without making a list that only applies to a specific sideboard.
I think these are the most commonly removed cards from the deck because they are often either excellent or terrible:
Leonin Arbiter: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Affinity, Dredge, Burn, Reanimator, Storm,
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo(?), Death's Shadow Aggro, Affinity, Elves, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Bant Eldrazi
Matter Reshaper: Ad Nauseam, Affinity, Elves, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Grixis Control, Storm, UWr Kiki Control
Chalice of the Void: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron (on the draw), Tron (on the draw), Scapeshift, Amulet Titan (on the draw), Sun and Moon, Jund,
Dismember: UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Dredge, Reanimator,
Gemstone Caverns: On the play vs. ??
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Since SBs and metas are in constant shift I think it's best to just look at the current version (red white) since the older ones are already a bit outdated. In the end it's probably just going to be a meta question to splash red or not.
I'm pretty busy atm so I don't really have time. Maybe in a week I could do it.
I would probably just take a look at all the T1 and T2 decks and some special ones from T3 and untiered: https://www.mainphasemtg.net/modern-tier-list/2017/5/15/modern-tiered-list-weekly-update-and-analysis-for-51517
Since jack wilds mentionend some difficulties casting Anger - how has it worked out for the others? Personally I didn't find time to test too much but it wasn't too much of a concern to me. I don't recall having mana problems (besides Rugged Prairie).
EDIT: Nicly done Redtwister! Thx for that, appreciate the effort
(I don't necessarily agree everywhere - I will post my approaches in the near future.)
It's difficult to say because it always depends on the number of other cards I want to bring in or out. For example Mincensor is not bad against DS, I wouldn't be unhappy to play it post board, but if he is actually better than other cards depends on how much space you have left to side. So therefore these are more inputs and it changes with each SB and MD configuartion. You can also bring in some number of paths against Titan shift for example if you have too much space. But I still listed it here because it's not something I actually want in this MU.
In:
Path not against: Tron, Titan shift, Sun and Moon but against Jund
Dec in Stone against Dredge
Blessed Alliance not against Grixis Control, Journey neither
Stance not against Bant Spirits
Anger not against Bant Eldrazi
Wear/Tear and Disenchant not against Tron or DnT but against Ad Nauseam
Celestial Purge and RIP against Abzan
Celestial Purge against Storm
Mindcensor maybe only against DS Jund and not DS grixis
Worship really depends. For example against Elves if they saw Chalice g1 then I wouldn't bring it in. If not then I would. But I wouldn't bring it in against DnT (Flickerwisp)
Torpor Orb not against Dredge and Elves (maybe against the gb version with Shaman of the pack)
Nahiri not against Tron but against Jund and Abzan
Out:
I would keep Arbiter against Burn, Storm and Reanimator.
I would keep Reshaper against Grixis Control
I would always side out Chalice against Eldrazi Tron but keep it play or draw against Tron.
Dismember comes out against Burn.
I generally tend to take out a Gemstone against (slower) decks on the play when I need the space in the deck. If I don't need the space then I leave it in.
round 1 vs. 8whack Goblins 2-1
EE clear his board game 2, stabilize with a beater, THC slows his roll hard. He just can't get through my guys game 3 before they get through him. Displacer and THC were straight heroes. Won without seeing chalice, very surprised.
round 2 vs. Burn 2-1
chalice, thalia, TKS
round 3 vs. Living end 0-2
game 1, he is on the play, he cycles, I don't comprehend what is going on, on my turn I put chalice on 1, look at the card in his graveyard and realize my mistake. No more Chalices, no wins. Game 2 I mulligan to a horrid 5 card hand, but it has Chalice and I hope to draw lands. I don't. Play Torpor Orb against them, it shuts off all of their artifact and enchantment hate, which is all creature-based ETB except for Beast Within. The new cyclers are stupid powerful, btw. If they Living End, we just lose now.
round 4 vs. Abzan Midrange 2-0
Not sure what was going on with him, I had good draws and mana denial, I don't think he saw Rhino either game.
round 5 vs. Burn 2-0
chalice, thalia, TKS
round 6 vs. Grixis Death's Shadow 2-1
Second best match of the day, best win. Game 1, he has no board, taps out all three lands looking for answers. I have plains, Forge, GQ in play. I peel Leonin Arbiter, play a second GQ and double Strip Mine him and it is over. His eye literally twitched. Game 2, he does the DS thing. Game 3, I am on the play, play my second land with Aven Mindcensor in hand and SSG. I pass, he goes to fetch, I land Mindcensor, he does't find a land. Next turn I play chalice on 1 and ride Mindcensor for a few turns, he is dead in the water, casting spells into Chalice in order to delve Tasigur. I cast TKS in response. He holds Tasigur on defense. I peel Cast Out off the top with 6 damage on the field, take out his Tasigur and finish him with Mindcensor and TKS in two turns. He takes the match slip and pushes it at me with both hands and tosses his pen at my mat. I tell him he didn't sign, and he just rips a line across the signature. I went from feeling good about my win to enjoying making him cry like a baby because he was such a poor loser.
round 7 feature match vs. Eli Kassis on Company Counters 0-2
He romped me. Game 1, I drew 5 lands in a row and no beaters or removal, so I could not race him in the end. Very long game, and if I didn't flood, i could have won since he was at 6 and I was at 9. Just give a brother a Smasher, am I right? I had Chalice on 2, which I think locked him up from the combo win. Game 2, he combos on turn 4. Very, very nice guy, classy player. Really enjoyed the beating.
round 8 vs. 5 Color Mantis Rider?? 2-1
Best match of the day. His deck plays one Forest and all the lands that only make colored mana for multi-color creatures. 3rd game, he has me at 1, I have 3 creatures in play and lethal on board, but he has Mantis Rider and 3 mana dorks (he has been doing 5 damage a turn on double Noble hierarch Mantis Rider. I have Cast Out and 4 lands, including a plains. He attacks (I want him to commit in case he has another one), I Cast Out his Rider. GG.
round 9 vs. Abzan Midrange 0-2
I hate Siege Rhino. Who thought a 4/5 with Lightning Helix for 4 mana was reasonable? It was like losing to a better version of the same crap deck from standard (4 Push, 4 PtE, several Abrupt decay, mana dorks, and the new Liliana.) I had double Leonin Arbiter into Ghost Quarters and I could not keep him off mana game 1 and then he drew 3 Siege Rhinos in a row. Game 2 was Tarmogoyf and Siege Rhino after Siege Rhino with a Liliana -2 to get Siege Rhino back from the graveyard to kill me. I really wish I had had the second Torpor Orb in this match. Not sure if siding out chalice was right against this deck, with all of their 1 mana spells, but Rhino/Goyf/Liliana is what kills you. Also, never found RiP, cast Out, PtE, or Orb, which hurt a lot.
The only thing I hate more than combo is mid-range. Use all your mana, play the best creatures and removal and hand destruction in your colors. No synergy, no interaction, just a glorified Timmy deck.
Aside from the Living End match, I think I didn't make many actual in game play mistakes; nothing obvious at least. Maybe something against Kassis, but that match just felt really bad if you don't find all your removal, which I did not. Maybe I could have mulliganed more aggressively against Abzan, but you don't want to be on 5 against a Thoughtseize deck.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Regarding your losses, Living End makes sense. That deck absolutely folds when we get our bullets, but it's got better tech now from Amonkhet.
What is Company Counters? Collected Company + Druid combo stuff?
Abzan Midrange looks like an outlier - even with 4 Siege Rhinos it's a winnable match-up. Looks like he literally got all of the cards he wanted and you didn't. Wouldn't feel bad about losing those at all. Still a great showing and you're still tracking at your 66% win rate in super competitive environments!
Can we see a current deck list and SB for reference?
Thanks! Keep up the good work!
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
I'll add sideboard notes later if I can remember them.
@bmchu168
Yeah, I had the same thought about win rate.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Reality Smasher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Matter Reshaper
1 Aven Mindcensor
Lands (25)
3 Plains
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Aether Hub
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Rugged Prairie
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Inspiring Vantage
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Torpor Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Wear/Tear
1 Cast out
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Aside from the times when you just didn't draw enough lands or got land flooded, how did the Mana base feel? I know inspiring vantage fell out of favor with spiderspace, but how did your land mix feel?
For me, I often end up with chalice still in on the play, but out on the draw.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
RE: DSx and Chalice, I absolutely never side out Chalice of the Void. I brought in Cast Out, EE, and Nahiri.
EDIT: This is the deck and player I lost to in round 9, I believe. It is definitely the list.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@SpiderSpace
I always keep all the chalice play or draw. If I bring in path depends on the DS version. Against Grixis I leave in a couple of Dismember and I don't bring in path. Against Jund I take out all the Dismember and I might bring a path or two. You don't want to get stuck on multiple paths with chalice but having a copy or two in your deck seems ok to me (following the logic that with Chalice on 1 you are probably winning anyway even with one copy of path to exile in your hand, if the destroy chalice then your path gets active again).
"Wear/Tear and Disenchant not against Tron or DnT but against Ad Nauseam" - I disagree on DnT because they run Worship or Ghostly Prison, plus Vial, so it is worth it.
"Torpor Orb not against Dredge and Elves (maybe against the gb version with Shaman of the pack)" - I like orb vs. Dredge because it turns off Prized Amalgam, Haunted dead, and Scourge Devil. Also, Shaman of the Pack Elves are all that I have seen. I would prefer Grafdigger's Cage, but Cage is useless against Living End, Abzan Mid, Kiki, BW EnT, and other ETB decks (Merfolk, Spirits, basically non-CoCo/Chord go wide decks)
After thinking more about my Abzan loss and their list, I think we want both Thalias all games, plus Chalices on the play, but not on the draw. They run 14 1-drops against us and they want to be mana efficient to play turn 3 Liliana X, plus Thalia + Thalia blocks all of their creatures with 5x first strike. Both Thalias also are super blockers for Scooze and Grim Flayer, especially if you can RiP. The problem is what to take out. You need Dismember as a necessary evil, but on the draw you want PtE, Cast Out, and Nahiri. If you don't run Torpor Orb, Displacer is... complicated. You don't want to ever Displacer Rhino, but it protects our guys and let's us deal with Goyf and Flayer and save removal for Rhino. Arbiter is a bad blocker and it isn't easy to mana screw them anyway, GQs are mostly hitting man lands.
Maybe this?
In (4 on the play): 1x Cast Out, 1x Nahiri, the Harbinger, 2x Rest in Peace,
In (8 on the draw): 1x Cast Out, 1x Nahiri, the Harbinger, 2x Rest in Peace, and 2x PtE and 2x Torpor Orb OR 3x PtE, 1x Engineered Explosives (on 0 for Spirit tokens or 2 for every creature but Rhino.)
Out (on the draw): 4x Chalice of the Void, 4x Leonin Arbiter
Out (on the play): 4x Leonin Arbiter
I am still torn on 2x Torpor Orb vs 1x Grafdigger's Cage/1x Engineered Explosives. They are all very good in different matches and in some overlapping matches.
Sideboarding
IN:
Targeted Creature Removal:
Path to Exile: Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Mirror, Eldrazi Tron, Tron (on the draw), Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Goryo Reanimator, Amulet Titan, Zoo, Bant Spirits, Jund, Abzan Mid, 8Whack,
Blessed Alliance: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, Abzan Mid
Valorous Stance: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Abzan Mid
Journey to Nowhere: Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits
Declaration in Stone: Jund, Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Abzan, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Tron, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, Dredge, 8Whack
Wrath:
Anger of the Gods: Affinity, Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, 8Whack
Engineered Explosives: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Merfolk, Infect, Burn, Zoo, Bant Spirits, 8 Rack, 8Whack,
Ratchet Bomb: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Merfolk, Infect, Zoo, Bant Spirits, 8 Rack, 8Whack,
Artifact and Enchantment Hate:
Stony Silence: Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Lantern Control, Ironworks Combo, Ad Nauseam
Wear // Tear: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, 8 Rack
Disenchant: Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, 8 Rack
Semi-universal Targeted Removal:
Cast Out: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control, Jund, Abzan Mid, 8 Rack
Celestial Purge: Sun and Moon, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Burn, Grixis Control, Abzan Mid, Storm, 8 Rack
Oblivion Ring: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Ad Nauseam, Grixis Control
Graveyard Hate:
Rest in Peace: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Living End, Death's Shadow Aggro, UW Control, Jund, Goryo Reanimator, Grixis Control, Abzan Mid
Grafdigger's Cage: Dredge, Creature Toolbox Combo, Storm, Elves, Sun and Moon, Goryo Reanimator
Miscellaneous Tech:
Aven Mindcensor: Creature Toolbox Combo, Titan Shift, Scapeshift, Death's Shadow Aggro
Worship: Affinity, Death's Shadow Aggro, Creature Toolbox Combo, Elves, Merfolk, Burn, Scapeshift, Titan Shift, Spirits, Amulet Titan, Ur Gifts Storm, Bant Spirits, 8Whack,
Torpor Orb: UWr Kiki Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Elves, Creature Toolbox Combo, Titan Shift, Dredge, Bant Spirits, Living End, 8Whack,
Planeswalkers:
Nahiri, the Harbinger: UW Control, Affinity, Sun and Moon, Eldrazi Tron, Lantern Control, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Death's Shadow Aggro, Jund, Abzan Mid
Elspeth, Sun's champion: UW Control, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Jund, Abzan Mid-range
Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
OUT:
Leonin Arbiter: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Affinity, Dredge, 8Whack, Abzan Mid
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo(?), Death's Shadow Aggro, Affinity, Elves, Eldrazi Tron, Tron, Bant Eldrazi, 8Whack,
Matter Reshaper: Ad Nauseam, Affinity, Elves, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Storm, UWr Kiki Control
Chalice of the Void: Merfolk, BW Eldrazi and Taxes, Bant Spirits, Creature Toolbox Combo, Bant Eldrazi, Tron (on the draw), Scapeshift, Amulet Titan (on the draw), Sun and Moon, Jund, Abzan Mid (on the draw)
Dismember: UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control, Dredge, Reanimator, Burn, 8Whack, 8 Rack
Gemstone Caverns: take out a Gemstone against (slower) decks on the play when you need the space in the deck. Otherwise leave it in.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
You are definitely right about Torpor Orb against Dredge. I totally missed that it stops Amalgam.
I still probably wouldn't bring Wear Tear without seeing Worship against DnT. It is not that common of a SB card, even if some like to run it. But that also depends on the version they are playing. Against WB EnT it seems better since they run Tidehollow Sculler. I can see either way be alright.
I have played against GW Elves but that might not actually be that common.
Against this Abzan list I would not bring in Torpor Orb though. They only run 3 Rhinos as targets. But I would bring EE on the play and draw.
I will put your SB guide in the primer if you don't mind.
Yeah skred Red isn't great for us. We are definitely the aggressor. Thalia is good as is Smasher and TKS. Celestial Purge helps from the board.
Sure, awesome that the SB stuff is useful.
Agreed on Abzan Rhino; once I saw the list, I realized how bad that would be.
I was definitely missing Celestial Purge. Can I get a 20 card sideboard, WOTC? Pls???
EDIT: Looks a bit like a pure midrange BW Eldrazi deck won the GP Kobe in Japan. It might be interesting to think about how our deck varies from Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, and this. I really think we are a totally different deck from those, which are sort of pure mid-range decks. This one is the closest I have seen to Eldrazi playing the Jund or Abzan Midrange game (with with a ton of 1-for-1 removal and hand destruction.) Eldrazi Tron and Bant are mostly "ramp into efficient 3-5cmc creatures" mid-range decks, though Eldrazi Tron does slide into elements of prison.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
#1 Eldrazi Obligator: 3/1 haste that can be later game Act of Treason, plus we can cast it with Eldrazi Temple turn 2. My personal favorite and it is hateful once you have the mana for the kicker, which is also a cast trigger, not an ETB trigger, so you can do things like steal a Walking Ballista before they can kill Obligator, or force them to use it up on you immediately.
#2 Pyrewild Shaman: 3/1, can be used as a pump, and can also go back to your hand from the graveyard.
#3 Bloodmad Vampire: 4/1, which is huge, and it gets bigger each time it hits. Also, great against Liliana of the Veil and discard because of Madness.
RW creatures stink (well, we can't really expect to cast Boros Reckoner, which would otherwise be a delight.)
I think Eldrazi Obligator is fantastic. Very aggressive, easy to cast on turn 2, but also easy to use late game to steal wins and I am going to take 2-3 out for a spin.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Missed your Edit last time. I agree with you. This BW Eldrazi deck really is very close to traditional Jund.
Aggro: Eldrazi Stompy
Aggro Disruption: DnS
Midrange: BW Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi, BW EnT
early lategame: Eldrazi Tron
Obligator seems interesting. Definitely worth trying out.
@bmachu168 I think so too.