I think it will be interesting to see if UW Control drops back out of the picture this month. It peaked for a moment because of the role it played in the Team format, but I think it is a soft deck in regular 1v1 most of the time, especially if board-wipe resilient decks like creature combo and other combo continue to increase in popularity. UW Control, unlike this deck, lack finishers to put the game away quickly after the wipe.
If control is once again unplayable, which I think it will prove to be, the necessity of Cavern of Souls could once again be reduced.
I had not considered Aether Hub, but that isn't a bad choice actually. And way cheaper than Tendo and, outside of someone GQ'ing it in response to the energy trigger, it is functionally the same.
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For those of you testing out Cast Out, how is it working for you? The 4 mana is steep, but are you guys seeing upside from the Flash and Cycling aspects? I have it in the SB as a 1 of, but may go up to 2 if needed. Agree with Stabilo also that O-Ring effects are needed to just remove annoying non-creature permanents that seriously stifle us.
Aside from the manabase and sideboard I noted on the previous page, my main is the same. I really like the main and haven't seen anything good enough to switch it out for, it is the sideboard and mana that I constantly tinker with.
Damn vendor was supposed to ship me lands in 3-4 days on May 5, still no Rugged Prairie for tonight, so I am going to use the much less good Aether Hub, since Mana Confluence can't tap for colorless and I need and
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@redtwister: Anger is not reliably castable with 11 red sources. You would need 19. Even if you get it up to 13 it is not enough.
Wear / Tear is also worth mentioning.
On cast out: as redtwister mentioned the immunity to Abrupt Decay is good. Also IoK. The cycling is actually huge. If you want an O Ring effect I feel like this is the best one.
Aether Hub has been played at the beginning of the deck - there's some discussion about it.
EE gets quite a bit better with the red splash.
@bmchu168. My list is still about the same - no major changes. Atm I'm trying the red splash but I don't have much time for testing so not much coming from my side.
@Stabil0
Yeah, I know. I did say it was greedy, though I am not sure how you get 19 sources. I run WW in DnT in Legacy with high efficacy and no one has ever run more than 15 W sources, and usually it is 14, and even with Vial that is only 17/16 and only applies to creatures (the deck frequently runs Gideon and council's Judgment in the sideboard.) I am also unsure about Pyroclasm, so I considered Kozilek's Return, but I don't think Instant speed is that relevant, whereas 2 CMC vs. 3 CMC is huge, for the same damage.
Went 2-2 last night against Burn (win), Jeskai Control (Loss, my fault), UB Thopter Foundry (win), Jund Primeval Shift.
I had my best and worst games against Jeskai deck, with game 1 loss because I lost my mind and displaced a Snapcaster Mage to try and sneak through damage. On the other hand, my game 2 went: turn 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar; turn 2 Matter Reshaper; turn 3 Reality Smasher. When the deck is on, it is on. I also boarded wrong game 3, forgetting (I know this guy from other events) he was on Kiki-Angel, so I should have put in Torpor Orb, my secret weapon for ETB-heavy decks.
Against Primetime, either you slow their mana development or you lose. Never slowed his mana, never found Torpor Orb, and he never stumbled (Game 2 he hit 6 mana turn 4 with 4 Primeval Titans in hand. What can men do against such reckless hate??)
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Actually, each Vial is 1/2 a mana source, so at best it functions as 2 sources. Anyway, yes it is greedy. I am looking for other solutions, but I am not finding them since a reliable 3 colors for EE on 3 is even more impossible. I am not even sure two colors is reliable for it. And I am not convinced that 2 damage is good enough.
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When doing a land count, Vial is generally considered half a land for reasons I am about to guess at.
- Vial only counts towards summoning creatures and
- only creatures of the CMC it has counters for
- it does not provide mana for activated abilities or spells
I certainly do not count it when considering mana for Gideon and Council's Judgment, which are both WW and considering the mana, not only is WW an issue in DnT, so is 3-4 mana, especially with Thalia, since Port and Wasteland are often treated as permanents with activated abilities rather than lands, hence 23 lands in a deck full of 1-3 CMC cards and a way to cheat creatures in.
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Ran some games, deck feels good still, taking it to Baltimore SCG Open next weekend.
Didn't get a lot of work in with the new tech, still lost to Merfolk, though Torpor Orb really slowed them down game 2 (very sad Harbiners, Silvergills and Masters), but it's still pretty good if they go dude, dude, lord, lord, lord. Anger would have definitely won me Game 2. However, I don't think there is any universe where Merfolk is a good match unless they mulligan pretty hard.
Anyone else going?
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I tried the red splash only for a little bit but am not continuing it. Pyroclasm feels too small and anger to difficult to cast. I have been impressed by EE though. Especially against Merfolk. Maybe it's worth to play one or two more Battlefield Forge / (Caves of Koilos) for some extra colored mana sources.
EE also gains with Elves being T1 (https://www.mainphasemtg.net/modern-tier-list/2017/5/15/modern-tiered-list-weekly-update-and-analysis-for-51517).
SB proposal for this Metagame:
3 Path
3 Stony
2 Rip
1 Cage
1 Celestial Purge
2 EE
1 Cast out
2 flex slots
@G_g53
Tapping out to exile 1 creature for 2 mana feels bad to me, but I am happy if it is working for you. Are you using EE or Ratchet for other matches?
@Stabil0
I like your sideboard if you are committed to EE. What are you throwing in the slots?
I am committed to Anger of the Gods and Torpor Orb for now because I do not have enough games to know if it feels good/bad, but I expected Pyroclasm to be too small. ATM, all I know is that every game where Anger would have been relevant in my hand, I would have won and no other card would have gotten me there. not least because exile feels really relevant against a number of the go-wide decks, so it synergizes with RiP, CoCo and Orb in the matches where I am auto-removing 4 Chalice, 3 TGoT.
This pretty much covers all of my Orb and Anger match-ups, which happen to include a lot of the matches where Chalice is bad and PtE is good.
Vs. Merfolk, Spirits, and BW DnT (revised per Stabil0's absolutely correct comments below)
-4 Chalice
-4 Leonin Arbiter
+3 Anger
+2 Orb
+2 PtE
+1 Cast Out
Vs. Abzan CoCo Creature Combo (I feel like the prison part is huge here, hence all of the prison pieces. We have to be locking them down, wiping them out, and then swinging in later in the game. If we try to race, we lose.)
-4 Chalice
-3 TGoT
-2 Matter Reshaper
+3 Anger
+2 Orb
+2 PtE
+2 Rip
Vs. Elves (Chalice is quite good here, especially if you can GQ their Caverns, and THC is a beast if all their guys come in tapped.)
-3 TGoT
-2 Matter Reshaper
-1 Aven Mindcensor (They CoCo instead of Chord)
+3 Anger
+2 Orb
+1 Cage
@G_g53 you probably mean cmc3. I think EE is good even if they have everything from 1-3. It's still an easy 2+ for one and can sometimes be your only out. I think Journey is an alright choice.
@redtwister
1 Aven and 1 Worship as my flexslots. But I think the Worship is less well positioned atm and both should be something else.
If Anger is reliably castable then it could definitely be the right choice.
EE is also good against Death Shadow.
It might come down to the question: if Anger is castable then anger (or a 2-1 Anger EE split) if not then EE.
It seems as if Anger played out good for you. You never had issues with the mana?
(As a sidenote: if you don't play Anger then I would definitely board out Arbiter before Thalia against Merfolk, DnT and on the play against Affinity.
And even if you are playing Anger it might still be correct. Arbiter is actively bad against DnT and the first strike of Thalia is surprisingly relevant against Merfolk. It also happens a lot that I want to GQ my own land against Merfolk so I don't want Arbiter here. )
And I would board out Dismember and not Reshaper against UWx.
If you go with Anger you might want to reconsider your manabase and go further into red:
4 GQ, 4 Temple, 3 Gemstone, 4 Bf Forge, 2 Canopies, 2 Rugged Prairie, 4 Shockland, 2 Plains. That's 10 red sources + Gemstone + SSG. Still very low for my liking but may be enough.
@G_g53:
Cast Out has been good for me as my solution to random oddballs.
@Stabil0
RE: mana, yeah, probably. I'll give it a try. Maybe Inspiring Vantage is better, since it is not like I am fetching and I don't want to shock myself if I can help it and I want to get lands out ASAP early.
RE: Dismember, it depends on whether they are playing UWR Kiki or not, which is mostly what I had in mind. Straight UW Planeswalker, I agree. Totally don't need Dismember for those, you just want aggression.
Ugh, I am glad we are all talking about this, I really need to have my sideboarding straight in my head for next week.
Inspiring Vantage is a possibility (as is needle spires). The problem is that we need to go all the way up to five mana and I don't want to be stuck on 4 with Smasher in hand and topdeck Inspiring Vantage. But maybe one or two is correct.
Maybe also Canopy would have to go in favor of RW duals for improved consistency.
But at this point you have to ask yourself the question if the upside of Anger over the next best alternative (EE, Firespout, Pyroclasm,...) is worth giving up Cavern, some basics and Canopies.
It might be, especially in the current meta (creature based, counterspell light, etc.).
Another possibility is Firespout. Obviously less powerful but easier to cast and still makes 3 damage. Worse against DnT, Affinity, Spirits and Dredge equal against Merfolk, 8whack, Elves and (only slightly worse) against GWx creature combos.
I agree, you want Dismember if it's against the Resto combo.
@Stabil0
Yeah, I am splitting 2/2 Inspiring Vantage/Sacred Foundry, I dropped Horizon Canopy and I am keeping Cavern of Souls. I really feel like the amount of creature combo makes Anger of the Gods the only reasonable sweeper I think the deck can support. If the consideration is increasing total win percentages, I feel like the other sweeper options don't get us ways to turn the game in our favor. If I am going to stress the manabase, I want to stress it in the direction that provides the most advantage (R is the logical choice because we already run 4 SSG and 3 dmg + exile is pretty much perfect for cmc 3.)
So it was nice that I got to play against creature based decks 3 times as I could bring in Anger. And it was great every time I drew it. Played it in two games against Knightfall and in one game againt Elves. Mana was smooth every time. I'm definitely hyped and will try it further.
Game 2 against Affinity I kept the perfect hand with Stony and Anger and Lands to cast them. Unfortunately my opponent had an even better hand and got me with T1 Spellpierce my Stony and T2 Blood Moon into T3 pressure.
I think we get away with only two Basics as Blood Moon really doesn't see much play. I would have liked the second Horicon Canopy if we find place for it. I like this configuration in the current meta.
I just 5-0ed a league with something very similar to the above. My sideboard was slightly different, but the MD was the same. My sideboard had 2 stony, 3 rip, 1 EE, 3 anger, 2 wear/tear, and 1 cast out.
I beat traditional jund 2-0, affinity 2-1, grixis DS 2-1, grixis DS 2-0, and esper DS 2-0.
Affinity was by far the hardest match. He ran me over G1. G2 I led with t1 chalice at 0 into t2 stony and he couldn't quite get there. G3 I pretty much turned into removal.deck where I kept on opener with 2 anger and drew into paths. He mulled and so was pretty threat light.
I beat jund with some unfair mana plays involving arbiter.
DS feels quite favored for us. I'm guessing the jund variant might be slightly harder, but all of these felt very manageable.
The deck feels great.
It seems like we are able to splash R and help our bad go-wide MUs at little cost. The only card I could see missing is something like cavern of souls as I think that card is very much needed in the control MUs. It seems that we lost % against something like WU control with all their paths (less basics) and not having cavern for their counters. I'd like to try to squeeze 1 cavern back in somewhere, but I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing where it would fit with the R splash. It might be that we have to pick between the miser horizon canopy and cavern of souls.
EDIT: I didn't bring nahiri just because I didn't have one. I'm not sure it makes too much of a difference, although I get how she could help us grind. I find it interesting that she plays a similar role as wear/tear, but she's also slower yet more versatile. She's probably worse against something like affinity, but better vs something like RW prison. @Stabil0, can you share your thoughts on the card?
Hey congratz SpiderSpace!
I agree with all of your points.
The Death Shadow MU feels really in our favor. Just almost all of our cards are really good against them.
I think the Affinity MU gets better with the inclusion of Anger. Between Stony, Anger, and all of our removal we have some good tools. I think the role that you described is how the game should play out: we are definitely the control deck in this MU. Against Affinity I would bring in all the removal that we have access to.
If the mana allows us to splash Anger reliably (some more testing will tell) then I think that this is a really good way to combat our bad MUs.
So thanks at this place for bringing up Pyroclasm and redtwister for taking the idea further!
The control MU lost some percentage points without cavern. Maybe we can squeeze one or two more Cavern/Canopy lands in the deck if it turns out to be sufficient regarding red sources. Maybe we have to choose as you said. But in the current Meta UW control is not that big of a player so I think it's ok to not be playing Cavern atm.
Nahiri was just an idea I wanted to try. Mostly for her versatility as you said. With less Canopies the chance of flooding out in slower MUs becomes higher so Nahiri helps in this regard. But also for other MUs. She's fine against other Eldrazi decks, control decks, or the like. It's also likely that the opponent overvalues the threat of Nahiri as she is most often seen in combination with Emrakul. So they might waste too much resources into getting rid of her.
It gives this deck an angle of attack that it does not have otherwise: non creature based pressure and a form of card advantage. With the sweepers we can turn more into a control deck and that's where Planeswalkers fit, especially Nahiri. But I'm not saying that she's any good - just something I'm interested in testing.
I played the list some more today (2 leagues on stream if anybody's curious). I tried Redtwister's mana some and found the following: rugged prairie helps a lot for casting anger of the gods, but it can also get you stuck for colored mana. I'm not convinced it's the land we want yet. This happened more when I was on the 2 cavern plan. I switched around the numbers slightly and it feels like we only get 1x cavern/ canopy slot. My twitch chat suggested cutting a gemstone caverns for another cavern of souls, but I think the 3x gemstone is correct.
Nahiri seems totally fine in the board. Another option my chat presented was Ajani Vengeant. Ajani seems better at grinding, but it can't hit opposing blood moons and what not.
I went 0-3 in my first league on stream. I kept some fairly questionable hands that were frankly quite greedy. I feel like this deck pays off greedy plays, but I perhaps went too far. I then adjusted the manabase slightly and played it in another league. I went 5-0 again with it there.
Something to note for the board; I may want to try to find room for an aven mindcensor. I don't know how often we plan on playing against scapeshift, but it might be nice to have more options where we otherwise don't have a whole lot. However, I think our MU there should still be reasonable.
Sweet SpiderSpace! Good stream - I enjoyed watching it.
On Rugged Prairie: All of our lands produce either colorless or are dual lands besides Basic Plains and Canopy. Rugged Prairie gives you the possibility to go from white to double red. But this is only relevant if the first land isn't a dual land itself. So only in combination with Plains and Canopy. Now if you are not playing Canopy then this number is reduced to two Basics. So it's only in combination with Basics that you get an advantage. In combination with a dual land it would have been sufficient that Rugged Prairie were just a dual land itself (in regards to providing double red).
The second part is that Rugged Prairie provides you with colorless as well. But if you play Cavern over Canopy then you have additional colorless sources.
So it seems like Rugged Prairie isn't actually that good even if it looks like it would fit perfectly, especially with Cavern instead of Canopy.
On Gemstone: I have tested a bit with only two Gemstone because I disliked situations like the following: sitting on 3 lands with Smasher in hand and drawing your second Gemstone which you can't deploy. But I switched back to 3 because I think the acceleration is crucial to the decks principal gameplan. It's power vs. consistency.
I thought about Ajani as well but I think that Nahiri is the better option. I actually think that she is better at grinding. Higher loyality, especially when plusing, and the minus seems better in this meta whith Eldrazi and DS. Also her plus seems better than Ajanis. Only the ultimate is bad.
About the Affinity MU: I generally bring in all the paths (draw or play) and keep most Dismember in as well. Out: two drops, Reshaper and some more depending on draw or play (chalice). I think path is great in this MU. We don't put chalice on one anyway (zero or two mostly). They don't even have more than one basic but many immediate must kill cards like Overseer. Care to explain why you wouldn't want path?
You seem quite high on Wear / Tear. Isn't it just basically Disenchant? I don't know against which MU it would be relvant to have both modes (I guess Affinity if they bring in Blood Moon..) So this brings me to the question if we really need a Disenchant if we play Cast Out and Nahiri in the board?
Aven Mindcensor is good and the Valakut MU could need some help. I can see it. It's just that I think that Mindcensor is not too strong besides this exact MU and even there it dies to all of their removal and they sometimes find a land anyway.
Pia and Kira is powerful but I don't know if we want a 4 drop that is not an Eldrazi. Just very clunky.
That's an excellent point about the prairie. It seems mostly like a slightly worse battlefield forge here. I'm not sure what land could replace it just yet though.
I agree about Ajani. I could see the reach being nice, but I see him being both less versatile and easier to remove.
Excellent points on affinity. In retrospect, I think I'm probably wrong for sideboarding as I did. That's the one place with this deck that I'm not quite 100% on just yet. I had a preconceived notion that if path came in, chalice has to come out and while I think that's very often true, affinity is the perfect place to have both.
You're right that wear//tear is basically just disenchant. It might be harder to cast at times, but I'm viewing it as a wear//tear with a slight upside where we might get the chance to do both modes.
I think we absolutely do want it in the board even if we do have have cast out and nahiri though. It can be used earlier in the game and lets us still have other things to do if it's later on. Being able to EoT blow up that blood moon they cast while not having to have held up 4 mana for something like cast out seems relevant.
I agree about mindcensor VS valakut. It could be decent against tron l and chord decks if we want something more there as well.
I can see pia and kiran being clunky, altho having teach outside of smasher is nice. Chucking an extra chalice at their face does seem good. I may need to test it just as a 1 of and see how it feels.
Love where you guys are going with this. SpiderSpace, is your stream up on Twitch?
Nahiri, the Harbinger seems like a really nice addition for it's versatility, plus filtering is going to be really strong for us, not to mention that even the ultimate isn't awful for TKS or Smasher, since we just get to play them again the next turn, if we need to.
Two decks where I wantboth sides of Wear // Tear: BW Eldrazi, since they often run Worship and they always run Vial, and Ad Mauseum to threaten Phyrexian Unlife and Pentad Prism, forcing them into bad plays. I don't know if we want it as a 1-of against Merfolk, but hitting Vial and Spreading Seas seems okay. I can't really think of any other matches aside from Blood Moon Affinity where casting both sides at once will be terribly relevant. Still, I think it is 1 mana destroy enchantment instead of 2 and still 2 for Artifact, so if we can cast it reliably, it seems to mostly have advantage with no downside.
I'm still testing Torpor Orb for the UWR Kiki control matches, as well as BW Eldrazi, Hatebears, Merfolk, Spirits, etc. Having them also lets me take out Grafdigger's Cage against CoCo.
On lands, I am a big fan of Rugged Prairie as BF 5 and 6. I really want to make sure I am hitting at least 1-2 colorless mana in my first handful of lands consistently. The 3/2 Foundry/Vantage split seems right. I am running 1-of Cavern of Souls over Horizon Canopy because uncounterable and colorless and no damage to myself. Sure, the draw 1 is great, but I think not great enough.
I am 2/1 Matter Reshaper\Aven Mindcensor for Scapeshift, Tron and Chord (as noted above). Not sure what else I would do, Reshaper is really good most of the time.
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If control is once again unplayable, which I think it will prove to be, the necessity of Cavern of Souls could once again be reduced.
I had not considered Aether Hub, but that isn't a bad choice actually. And way cheaper than Tendo and, outside of someone GQ'ing it in response to the energy trigger, it is functionally the same.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
What does everyone's build look like these days? Here is mine:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/eldrazi-staxes/
For those of you testing out Cast Out, how is it working for you? The 4 mana is steep, but are you guys seeing upside from the Flash and Cycling aspects? I have it in the SB as a 1 of, but may go up to 2 if needed. Agree with Stabilo also that O-Ring effects are needed to just remove annoying non-creature permanents that seriously stifle us.
Damn vendor was supposed to ship me lands in 3-4 days on May 5, still no Rugged Prairie for tonight, so I am going to use the much less good Aether Hub, since Mana Confluence can't tap for colorless and I need and
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Yeah, I know. I did say it was greedy, though I am not sure how you get 19 sources. I run WW in DnT in Legacy with high efficacy and no one has ever run more than 15 W sources, and usually it is 14, and even with Vial that is only 17/16 and only applies to creatures (the deck frequently runs Gideon and council's Judgment in the sideboard.) I am also unsure about Pyroclasm, so I considered Kozilek's Return, but I don't think Instant speed is that relevant, whereas 2 CMC vs. 3 CMC is huge, for the same damage.
Went 2-2 last night against Burn (win), Jeskai Control (Loss, my fault), UB Thopter Foundry (win), Jund Primeval Shift.
I had my best and worst games against Jeskai deck, with game 1 loss because I lost my mind and displaced a Snapcaster Mage to try and sneak through damage. On the other hand, my game 2 went: turn 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar; turn 2 Matter Reshaper; turn 3 Reality Smasher. When the deck is on, it is on. I also boarded wrong game 3, forgetting (I know this guy from other events) he was on Kiki-Angel, so I should have put in Torpor Orb, my secret weapon for ETB-heavy decks.
Against Primetime, either you slow their mana development or you lose. Never slowed his mana, never found Torpor Orb, and he never stumbled (Game 2 he hit 6 mana turn 4 with 4 Primeval Titans in hand. What can men do against such reckless hate??)
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
If I look at various Legacy DnT lists I see mostly 15 W sources + Vial which makes 19. Not to start a discussion about color requirements in legay DnT or Vial decks in general but this fits into his calculation.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
- Vial only counts towards summoning creatures and
- only creatures of the CMC it has counters for
- it does not provide mana for activated abilities or spells
I certainly do not count it when considering mana for Gideon and Council's Judgment, which are both WW and considering the mana, not only is WW an issue in DnT, so is 3-4 mana, especially with Thalia, since Port and Wasteland are often treated as permanents with activated abilities rather than lands, hence 23 lands in a deck full of 1-3 CMC cards and a way to cheat creatures in.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Didn't get a lot of work in with the new tech, still lost to Merfolk, though Torpor Orb really slowed them down game 2 (very sad Harbiners, Silvergills and Masters), but it's still pretty good if they go dude, dude, lord, lord, lord. Anger would have definitely won me Game 2. However, I don't think there is any universe where Merfolk is a good match unless they mulligan pretty hard.
Anyone else going?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
EE also gains with Elves being T1 (https://www.mainphasemtg.net/modern-tier-list/2017/5/15/modern-tiered-list-weekly-update-and-analysis-for-51517).
SB proposal for this Metagame:
3 Path
3 Stony
2 Rip
1 Cage
1 Celestial Purge
2 EE
1 Cast out
2 flex slots
Tapping out to exile 1 creature for 2 mana feels bad to me, but I am happy if it is working for you. Are you using EE or Ratchet for other matches?
@Stabil0
I like your sideboard if you are committed to EE. What are you throwing in the slots?
I am committed to Anger of the Gods and Torpor Orb for now because I do not have enough games to know if it feels good/bad, but I expected Pyroclasm to be too small. ATM, all I know is that every game where Anger would have been relevant in my hand, I would have won and no other card would have gotten me there. not least because exile feels really relevant against a number of the go-wide decks, so it synergizes with RiP, CoCo and Orb in the matches where I am auto-removing 4 Chalice, 3 TGoT.
This pretty much covers all of my Orb and Anger match-ups, which happen to include a lot of the matches where Chalice is bad and PtE is good.
Vs. Merfolk, Spirits, and BW DnT (revised per Stabil0's absolutely correct comments below)
-4 Chalice
-4 Leonin Arbiter
+3 Anger
+2 Orb
+2 PtE
+1 Cast Out
Vs. Abzan CoCo Creature Combo (I feel like the prison part is huge here, hence all of the prison pieces. We have to be locking them down, wiping them out, and then swinging in later in the game. If we try to race, we lose.)
-4 Chalice
-3 TGoT
-2 Matter Reshaper
+3 Anger
+2 Orb
+2 PtE
+2 Rip
Vs. Elves (Chalice is quite good here, especially if you can GQ their Caverns, and THC is a beast if all their guys come in tapped.)
-3 TGoT
-2 Matter Reshaper
-1 Aven Mindcensor (They CoCo instead of Chord)
+3 Anger
+2 Orb
+1 Cage
Vs. Dredge
-4 Chalice
-2 TGoT
-1 Aven Mindcensor
+3 Anger
+2 PtE
+2 Rip
Vs. GW Grand Vizier
-3 Chalice
-3 TGoT
+3 Anger
+2 PtE
+1 Cage
Vs. UWx Control decks, if I see Snapcaster, Resto, Wall of Omens, then I assume V-clique and Kiki, therefore
+2 Orb
-2 Matter Reshaper
HOWEVER... If all I see is Snappy and planeswalkers, then, if I change anything at all,
+2 RiP
-2 Matter Reshaper
Vs. Affinity
-4 Leonin Arbiter
-2 THC
+2 PtE
+3 Anger
+1 Cast Out
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@redtwister
1 Aven and 1 Worship as my flexslots. But I think the Worship is less well positioned atm and both should be something else.
If Anger is reliably castable then it could definitely be the right choice.
EE is also good against Death Shadow.
It might come down to the question: if Anger is castable then anger (or a 2-1 Anger EE split) if not then EE.
It seems as if Anger played out good for you. You never had issues with the mana?
(As a sidenote: if you don't play Anger then I would definitely board out Arbiter before Thalia against Merfolk, DnT and on the play against Affinity.
And even if you are playing Anger it might still be correct. Arbiter is actively bad against DnT and the first strike of Thalia is surprisingly relevant against Merfolk. It also happens a lot that I want to GQ my own land against Merfolk so I don't want Arbiter here. )
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@G_g53:
Cast Out has been good for me as my solution to random oddballs.
RE: mana, yeah, probably. I'll give it a try. Maybe Inspiring Vantage is better, since it is not like I am fetching and I don't want to shock myself if I can help it and I want to get lands out ASAP early.
RE: Dismember, it depends on whether they are playing UWR Kiki or not, which is mostly what I had in mind. Straight UW Planeswalker, I agree. Totally don't need Dismember for those, you just want aggression.
Ugh, I am glad we are all talking about this, I really need to have my sideboarding straight in my head for next week.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Maybe also Canopy would have to go in favor of RW duals for improved consistency.
But at this point you have to ask yourself the question if the upside of Anger over the next best alternative (EE, Firespout, Pyroclasm,...) is worth giving up Cavern, some basics and Canopies.
It might be, especially in the current meta (creature based, counterspell light, etc.).
Another possibility is Firespout. Obviously less powerful but easier to cast and still makes 3 damage. Worse against DnT, Affinity, Spirits and Dredge equal against Merfolk, 8whack, Elves and (only slightly worse) against GWx creature combos.
I agree, you want Dismember if it's against the Resto combo.
Yeah, I am splitting 2/2 Inspiring Vantage/Sacred Foundry, I dropped Horizon Canopy and I am keeping Cavern of Souls. I really feel like the amount of creature combo makes Anger of the Gods the only reasonable sweeper I think the deck can support. If the consideration is increasing total win percentages, I feel like the other sweeper options don't get us ways to turn the game in our favor. If I am going to stress the manabase, I want to stress it in the direction that provides the most advantage (R is the logical choice because we already run 4 SSG and 3 dmg + exile is pretty much perfect for cmc 3.)
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
2-1 UB Midrange, 2-1 Knightfall, 2-0 Elves, 0-2 Affinity, 2-0 Death Shadow
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (25)
2 Plains
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Gemstone Caverns
2 Rugged Prairie
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Inspiring Vantage
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
2 Rest in Peace
3 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Wear/Tear
1 Cast out
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
So it was nice that I got to play against creature based decks 3 times as I could bring in Anger. And it was great every time I drew it. Played it in two games against Knightfall and in one game againt Elves. Mana was smooth every time. I'm definitely hyped and will try it further.
Game 2 against Affinity I kept the perfect hand with Stony and Anger and Lands to cast them. Unfortunately my opponent had an even better hand and got me with T1 Spellpierce my Stony and T2 Blood Moon into T3 pressure.
I think we get away with only two Basics as Blood Moon really doesn't see much play. I would have liked the second Horicon Canopy if we find place for it. I like this configuration in the current meta.
I beat traditional jund 2-0, affinity 2-1, grixis DS 2-1, grixis DS 2-0, and esper DS 2-0.
Affinity was by far the hardest match. He ran me over G1. G2 I led with t1 chalice at 0 into t2 stony and he couldn't quite get there. G3 I pretty much turned into removal.deck where I kept on opener with 2 anger and drew into paths. He mulled and so was pretty threat light.
I beat jund with some unfair mana plays involving arbiter.
DS feels quite favored for us. I'm guessing the jund variant might be slightly harder, but all of these felt very manageable.
The deck feels great.
It seems like we are able to splash R and help our bad go-wide MUs at little cost. The only card I could see missing is something like cavern of souls as I think that card is very much needed in the control MUs. It seems that we lost % against something like WU control with all their paths (less basics) and not having cavern for their counters. I'd like to try to squeeze 1 cavern back in somewhere, but I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing where it would fit with the R splash. It might be that we have to pick between the miser
horizon canopy and cavern of souls.
EDIT: I didn't bring nahiri just because I didn't have one. I'm not sure it makes too much of a difference, although I get how she could help us grind. I find it interesting that she plays a similar role as wear/tear, but she's also slower yet more versatile. She's probably worse against something like affinity, but better vs something like RW prison. @Stabil0, can you share your thoughts on the card?
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
I agree with all of your points.
So thanks at this place for bringing up Pyroclasm and redtwister for taking the idea further!
I played the list some more today (2 leagues on stream if anybody's curious). I tried Redtwister's mana some and found the following: rugged prairie helps a lot for casting anger of the gods, but it can also get you stuck for colored mana. I'm not convinced it's the land we want yet. This happened more when I was on the 2 cavern plan. I switched around the numbers slightly and it feels like we only get 1x cavern/ canopy slot. My twitch chat suggested cutting a gemstone caverns for another cavern of souls, but I think the 3x gemstone is correct.
Nahiri seems totally fine in the board. Another option my chat presented was Ajani Vengeant. Ajani seems better at grinding, but it can't hit opposing blood moons and what not.
I went 0-3 in my first league on stream. I kept some fairly questionable hands that were frankly quite greedy. I feel like this deck pays off greedy plays, but I perhaps went too far. I then adjusted the manabase slightly and played it in another league. I went 5-0 again with it there.
Something to note for the board; I may want to try to find room for an aven mindcensor. I don't know how often we plan on playing against scapeshift, but it might be nice to have more options where we otherwise don't have a whole lot. However, I think our MU there should still be reasonable.
With all this double R mana, how do you all feel about trying to fit a MD pia and kiran nalaar? (it probably replaces a matter reshaper)
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
So it seems like Rugged Prairie isn't actually that good even if it looks like it would fit perfectly, especially with Cavern instead of Canopy.
Glad to hear it!
That's an excellent point about the prairie. It seems mostly like a slightly worse battlefield forge here. I'm not sure what land could replace it just yet though.
I agree about Ajani. I could see the reach being nice, but I see him being both less versatile and easier to remove.
Excellent points on affinity. In retrospect, I think I'm probably wrong for sideboarding as I did. That's the one place with this deck that I'm not quite 100% on just yet. I had a preconceived notion that if path came in, chalice has to come out and while I think that's very often true, affinity is the perfect place to have both.
You're right that wear//tear is basically just disenchant. It might be harder to cast at times, but I'm viewing it as a wear//tear with a slight upside where we might get the chance to do both modes.
I think we absolutely do want it in the board even if we do have have cast out and nahiri though. It can be used earlier in the game and lets us still have other things to do if it's later on. Being able to EoT blow up that blood moon they cast while not having to have held up 4 mana for something like cast out seems relevant.
I agree about mindcensor VS valakut. It could be decent against tron l and chord decks if we want something more there as well.
I can see pia and kiran being clunky, altho having teach outside of smasher is nice. Chucking an extra chalice at their face does seem good. I may need to test it just as a 1 of and see how it feels.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Nahiri, the Harbinger seems like a really nice addition for it's versatility, plus filtering is going to be really strong for us, not to mention that even the ultimate isn't awful for TKS or Smasher, since we just get to play them again the next turn, if we need to.
Two decks where I wantboth sides of Wear // Tear: BW Eldrazi, since they often run Worship and they always run Vial, and Ad Mauseum to threaten Phyrexian Unlife and Pentad Prism, forcing them into bad plays. I don't know if we want it as a 1-of against Merfolk, but hitting Vial and Spreading Seas seems okay. I can't really think of any other matches aside from Blood Moon Affinity where casting both sides at once will be terribly relevant. Still, I think it is 1 mana destroy enchantment instead of 2 and still 2 for Artifact, so if we can cast it reliably, it seems to mostly have advantage with no downside.
I'm still testing Torpor Orb for the UWR Kiki control matches, as well as BW Eldrazi, Hatebears, Merfolk, Spirits, etc. Having them also lets me take out Grafdigger's Cage against CoCo.
On lands, I am a big fan of Rugged Prairie as BF 5 and 6. I really want to make sure I am hitting at least 1-2 colorless mana in my first handful of lands consistently. The 3/2 Foundry/Vantage split seems right. I am running 1-of Cavern of Souls over Horizon Canopy because uncounterable and colorless and no damage to myself. Sure, the draw 1 is great, but I think not great enough.
I am 2/1 Matter Reshaper\Aven Mindcensor for Scapeshift, Tron and Chord (as noted above). Not sure what else I would do, Reshaper is really good most of the time.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.