I was under the impression half the benefit of Gather the Pack is that it mills cards from your lib to grave - hopefully putting something revivable like Vengevine there. Or fuels a Delve creature.
I still don't understand why people seem to want to move away from the Hollow One plan. The post at the top of this page mentions how the list JGM played is a one-trick pony Vengevine deck. I'm sorry but what? Are we looking at the same deck here? Because I don't think we are.
Honestly, I feel that right now if you aren't trying to run the Hollow One package, you're just doing your Vengevine deck wrong. And to clarify, this is what I see as the Hollow One package:
If you don't start your list with these 24 cards, I feel like you are unintentionally limited how powerful your deck can be. The only concession I can make to the above list is that maybe you can cut the Cathartic Reunions down to 3 instead of 4. I do agree it is a horrible topdeck, but:
A) Optimally, you will end the game before you are in topdeck mode
B) You want to see at least 1 Reunion every single game, so running any less than 3 is a terrible idea.
I know personally, I want to build a competitive deck I am confident I can take to PPTQs or GPs and win with. For anyone who is just working on cute casual fun things to take to a not-to-serious Modern event, keep doing what you're doing. I hope you're enjoying the deck and having a blast with it.
As for others like me, well...yeah. If you are disregarding Hollow One you are doing yourself a disservice. At the end of the day, to quote the very first sentence in the Primer:
Super Vengevine is an aggro deck
With that said, this is the list I have been testing with:
There are some occasional gameplay differences (Memnite makes a T1 Vengevine possible), but it seems to me like in most circumstances, they have the same net cost (Cantor refunds its mana cost) - Cantor gets you one more card in grave (cheapening a Delve spell) and fixes / ramps mana in a pinch. In this deck, it seems to me like a net-0-cost 1/1 in your graveyard is more useful than a 0-cost 1/1 on the battlefield.
I even wonder if Ornithopter would be better than Memnite. A 1/1 swinging is unlikely to really make a difference in this deck - with flying, Ornithopter is more likely to be unblocked and then Become Immense really does make a difference.
Walking Ballista? When you need the Vengevine trigger on limited mana you can turf it for X=0 and get a creature-cast (just like you do for Memnite) and another card in grave for delve. Later in the game you can cast it for a bigger X to gun down blockers or finishing face damage.
@Skitzafreak don't get me wrong hollow one version of the deck is very strong and the more it's refined also more consistent. But it's not the only avenue to explore with this deck. I don't play mtgo but I do play regularly with a collection of people who play competitive modern. And I have to say the vexing devil/superion build is quite possibly as strong. And denfently worth exploring. So I agree that hollow is a good strong deck but by limiting the thread to just that deck we are limiting the development of the deck further down the line.
Let me try to explain why I feel that if you aren't running my proposes 23-24 cards you are building the deck wrong. First I want to point out you very well could add the whole BTE package to my 23-24 cards, and you could still have a great deck. Hell I've even been considering trying it out myself. Anyway...
4x Vengevine: This is the reason we're playing the deck. NEXT
4x Faithless Looting: I don't think I have to argue this one that much since everyone here seems to be running it. It is the best and cheapest card this deck has access to that allows us to dig through our deck while also letting us discard our Vengevines. There is literally no replacement for this card. If you aren't running Looting, I don't know what you're doing trying to play a Vengevine deck.
4x Insolent Neonate: This one is just as important as Faithless Looting. You have no idea how many games I have won off of being able to cast Neonate, and then saccing it to discard Vengevine and instantly recurring said Vengevine. It is a way for the deck to very easily play around graveyard hate. Like Faithless Looting, if you aren't running these, I am sorry but you are just wrong.
3-4x Cathartic Reunion: I've seen the argument that this is a bad top-deck. Sure. Though I have to ask a question. Why are you getting to a point to where you are in top-deck mode? Why is your opponent not shuffling up for the next game? Why are they not signing the match-slip with 40 minutes still remaining in the round? I've seen people running Gather the Pack, or Commune with the Gods, or Grisly Salvage, but you won't run Reunion? Are you insane? Look, I can see why they seem alluring. You get to look at 5 cards, grab one you want, toss the rest into your graveyard. What is there are 4 Vengevines you get to get rid of? What is there are 3? 2? What about if it's the more likely scenario where there are exactly 0 Vengevines and you just got rid of 4 cards you'd have rather held in your hand? What if you want to recur Vengevine(s) on turn 2, but you only have 1 creature in hand? Well you can't cast any of those and get anything to help you recur Vengevine. This is why Reunion is a key card here. You:
1) Discard cards that are in your hand that you know you don't want in the current scenario
2) Draw 3 cards, which makes you able to get full use out of every card in your deck, instead of just uselessly pitching some AND
3) It synergizes perfectly with Hollow One, which with only one more cycle or discard can be cast for absolutely free, which can recur your Vengevines. All of this brings me to:
4x Street Wraith & Hollow One: I list these 2 together, because with Hollow One, you don't want to run Street Wraith. But to make Hollow One work more consistently you need Street Wraith. They are an 8 card package that if you remove one half, you need to remove the other. So why are these 8 cards so damn good? The answer is quite simple really. You get to cast FREE 4/4 creatures which will reanimate your Vengevines. You can chain Neonate into Looting, into Hollow One to recur Vengevine. You can cycle Street Wraith, and cast Reunion and cast 2 Hollow Ones to recur Vengevine. They make the prospect of getting a Vengevine in play so consistent, it's ridiculous. Add to that the fact that the creature you are casting to recur your Vengevine isn't some 1/1, or 2/2, but a 4/4. And not just any 4/4. A 4/4 that dodges Fatal Push. Hot damn! That is some mad aggro plays if I have ever seen any.
As I said, you can add whatever else you want to the deck, but I feel you are doing a disservice to yourself if you don't run the 23-24 cards I have suggested above. They're just too good.
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Damn. I've been rooting against that deck having success right now because... Vengevine prices more than doubled (for a time, more than tripled!) since we started talking about Hollow One here in this thread, and because I was unable to find people to trade me Vengevines when I was trying when it was worth ~$11 each, the spike from that deck's speculators has put the card... out of my reach. If it doesn't get reprinted in one of the forthcoming Masters sets, it has likely spiked its way out of any ability for me tyo play it.
Currently testing a lot before settling on a new list. Vengevine is one of my favorite card. My deck right now is a straight black and Green vengevine, but as @skitzafreak said in the other vengevine thread, red is a must have. I've been trying really hard to make black/green work, but I've now come to the realization if I want to be more competitive, faithless looting and insolent neonate are just too good.
I'm not sold on cathartic reunion however. If reunion was draw 3 then discard 2, it would be bonkers. But unfortunately, discarding before the draw is much worse. Regarding cathartic VS gather the pack, IMO, gather the pack is better. You "dig" deeper into your library (more chance to reveal a vine) and you get to pick what you want to keep. You can even keep 0 if that's what you prefer. In my testing (it may be a piloting error), cathartic often feels very bad when you draw into a vengevine if you have no other way to discard it. Hollow one is really what makes cathartic reunion shines, IMO. On the other hand, gather is better at fueling delve.
That 4th place vengevine list is super interesting. I have not seen how it was played, but it seems to me that the vengevine / hollow one are less important in this deck. Swinging with gobling guides, BTE and bushwackers is a solid strategy that can win games by itself, after all.
Ugh. That top 26 was horrible. There are only like 5 decks in modern right now. 6 with the placing of this one deck. The others all have multiple duplicate decks in the tops... Does not feel well for modern. But hey. Keep rocking with this creation.
Ugh. That top 26 was horrible. There are only like 5 decks in modern right now. 6 with the placing of this one deck. The others all have multiple duplicate decks in the tops... Does not feel well for modern. But hey. Keep rocking with this creation.
3-4x Cathartic Reunion: I've seen the argument that this is a bad top-deck. Sure. Though I have to ask a question. Why are you getting to a point to where you are in top-deck mode? Why is your opponent not shuffling up for the next game? Why are they not signing the match-slip with 40 minutes still remaining in the round?
This is the sort of thinking that is utterly incorrect. The good aggro or combo decks in Modern have a backup if the first assault fails. Specific examples:
- Titanshift. They play their Titan, grab two lands. You kill it. They rip lands/ramp spells off the top and Bolt you anyway. You die.
- Storm. They go for Gifts/Past, you counter it. They rip Gifts/Past off the top (6 copies in their deck total with Peer to dig for it, so it's not an absolute fluke), or flashback Past, and combo again.
- Dredge. They put out a bunch of Bloodghasts and Amalgams, you kill them with not-Anger. They play a land, get all their Bloodghasts and Amalgams back.
- Infect, before Probe ban. They play a Blighted Agent with Inkmoth Nexus as backup next turn, stretching your removal thin.
If you're building the deck with the "speed at all costs" mentality you're doing it wrong. This goes doubly so for this deck, because you're forfeiting a huge benefit of Vengevine: it comes back over and over again. I don't know about you, but I don't want to put everything into one assault, have it stopped, then say "oh well gg, guess that's what I get for playing Cathartic Reunion in my deck lol". I want to play two more creatures and get that Vengevine (with haste) back into play. Gather the Pack lets me do just that.
This is the sort of thinking that is utterly incorrect. The good aggro or combo decks in Modern have a backup if the first assault fails. Specific examples:
- Titanshift. They play their Titan, grab two lands. You kill it. They rip lands/ramp spells off the top and Bolt you anyway. You die.
- Storm. They go for Gifts/Past, you counter it. They rip Gifts/Past off the top (6 copies in their deck total with Peer to dig for it, so it's not an absolute fluke), or flashback Past, and combo again.
- Dredge. They put out a bunch of Bloodghasts and Amalgams, you kill them with not-Anger. They play a land, get all their Bloodghasts and Amalgams back.
- Infect, before Probe ban. They play a Blighted Agent with Inkmoth Nexus as backup next turn, stretching your removal thin.
If you're building the deck with the "speed at all costs" mentality you're doing it wrong. This goes doubly so for this deck, because you're forfeiting a huge benefit of Vengevine: it comes back over and over again. I don't know about you, but I don't want to put everything into one assault, have it stopped, then say "oh well gg, guess that's what I get for playing Cathartic Reunion in my deck lol". I want to play two more creatures and get that Vengevine (with haste) back into play. Gather the Pack lets me do just that.
I may have been quick with my reasoning because I wanted to get that post over and done with, as it's the third time I've gone over the benefits of Cathartic Reunion with people wanting to play Vengevine decks and it is getting increasingly tedious.
What's funny about all your examples of "back-up plans" is that the Infect example is the only case of an actual back-up plan.
Valakut bolting you in the face every time your opponent plays lands after they've gotten it via Titan or Scapeshift is not a backup plan, it's the main plan for how the deck works.
Topdecking Gifts/Past in Flames after counter one is not a back up plan either. The Gifts package has been included, not as a backup plan for Storm, but to make the deck redundant to only accomplish Plan A. A better example of a Storm backup would be them going on the offensive with Goblin Electromancer and winning via combat damage that way.
In the same note, Dredge's entire Plan A revolves around being able to get creatures back from the graveyard in multiple ways. So no, Playing a land to recur Bloodghasts/Amalgams (which they wouldn't be able to do if you killed them all with an Anger I might add, they'd be exiled) is literally a key example of Dredge Plan A. Dredge's actual Plan B is Conflagrate with Life from the Loam.
There is a reason my mantra for Vengevine is "speed at all costs". The Top 5 decks of the format are essentially Grixis Shadow, Eldrazi-Tron, Affinity, TItanshift, and Gifts Storm. Grixis Shadow and Eldrazi Tron can very early play creatures that just roadblockushard. If we're throwing our 4/3's into 4/5's and 5/5's it doesn't matter how many times we reanimate the damn thing, that 4/5 or 5/5 is not dying. You had two options to get around these road blocks, you can go wide, or you can try to go faster.
If you look at the list I posted, I actually opt for both. Through playing a lot of creatures like Hollow One, Goblin Guide, and Memnite I am able to play a lot of creatures and make my board huge, thus going wide. This also allows me to recur my Vengevines was quickly as possible, and with other Haste creatures like Guide and Swiftspear, I am at the same time, going fast.
The reason Cathartic Reunion is, in my opinion, essential for this deck, and so much better than the garbage (again, my opinion) that is Gather the Pack, is because it enables both of these plans. It enables you to go wide by allowing you to draw into more cards, which lets you draw and play more creatures. It allows you to go fast in that it lets you discard your Vengevines and makes your Hollow One cheaper to recur those Vengevines.
I think everyone dislikes Cathartic Reunion because they think that they need to cast it, and they need to cast every copy they draw. Thus the arguments for it being a horrible top deck. However you in fact don't need to cast every single Cathartic Reunion. Hell my rule of thumb is 1 Reunion per game, unless the game state dictates otherwise.
Now obviously that poses the question; If I only want to be casting 1 Reunion per game, why am I advocating for 3-4 of them in the deck? Obviously that is so you can guarantee yourself to most often get that one Cathartic Reunion to cast every game. Most of the time I am discarding other Cathartic Reunions to cast my first Cathartic Reunion if I don't have Vengevines to get rid of.
The final reason I prefer Cthartic Reunion over something like Gather the Pack, is because you get to cast all your cards. Sometimes what you need to win isn't some creatures to recur Vengevine. Instead you need to just punch through a bunch of damage on 1 blocker with a Become Immense, or you need to hit your opponent's face with a Lightning Bolt. Well good luck getting those if you're playing Gather the Pack. In that case you're in "oh my god please give me what I need" topdeck mode. In that case you don't even want to cast your Gather the Pack since you might just essentially mill over the cards you need to win. Reunion on the other hand can help you draw into those cards.
There have been literally 0 games I have played with this deck where I would have wanted Gather the Pack (or Grisly Salvage, or all the other repeats of this effect) over Cathartic Reunion. Because Reunion is just that much better.
You seem to think that a "backup" must be completely different from what the first plan was. I, on the other hand, have no qualms accepting that a "backup" can consist of simply doing the first plan again. I mean, if you "backup" your data, you're literally making a copy of it.
Of course, given enough draw steps, you can execute whatever plan you intend to again. The examples that I mentioned are exceptional because it takes a very short amount of time to execute the backup. I don't have to wait 7 turns to draw 7 cards so that I can Storm again, I just flashback Past in Flames and I'm there. Gather the Pack is on that level - it lets you go from 4 mana with Gather in hand to 3 bodies on the field on the same turn.
The Superion build has 8 free creatures for going wide. BTE and Herbalists are bigger than Memnite. It has Superions, which outsize 4/5s and 5/5s. Vengevine (or Mandrills) with Bushwhacker's pump trades with 4/5s and 5/5s. Actually you're getting more out of that trade because Vengevine can come back again, but if you build your deck with cards that deny you from getting a second wave of creatures, you won't know that, will you?
I think you would do well to look at the Modern Challenge decklist again and notice how it doesn't play any Reunions, and has BTE + Bushwhacker instead. BTE is way better than Memnite. It doesn't even get in the way of turn 2 Vengevine because you can go BTE, Looting, use green to cast Hollow One, get Vengevine back. Bushwhacker makes your "going wide" threat credible because it pumps your creatures, something that you seem to have left out. Affinity doesn't attempt to "go wide" off a bunch of 1/1s - it "goes wide" off those 1/1s boosted by lords.
You seem to think that a "backup" must be completely different from what the first plan was. I, on the other hand, have no qualms accepting that a "backup" can consist of simply doing the first plan again. I mean, if you "backup" your data, you're literally making a copy of it.
Of course, given enough draw steps, you can execute whatever plan you intend to again. The examples that I mentioned are exceptional because it takes a very short amount of time to execute the backup. I don't have to wait 7 turns to draw 7 cards so that I can Storm again, I just flashback Past in Flames and I'm there. Gather the Pack is on that level - it lets you go from 4 mana with Gather in hand to 3 bodies on the field on the same turn.
The Superion build has 8 free creatures for going wide. BTE and Herbalists are bigger than Memnite. It has Superions, which outsize 4/5s and 5/5s. Vengevine (or Mandrills) with Bushwhacker's pump trades with 4/5s and 5/5s. Actually you're getting more out of that trade because Vengevine can come back again, but if you build your deck with cards that deny you from getting a second wave of creatures, you won't know that, will you?
I think you would do well to look at the Modern Challenge decklist again and notice how it doesn't play any Reunions, and has BTE + Bushwhacker instead. BTE is way better than Memnite. It doesn't even get in the way of turn 2 Vengevine because you can go BTE, Looting, use green to cast Hollow One, get Vengevine back. Bushwhacker makes your "going wide" threat credible because it pumps your creatures, something that you seem to have left out. Affinity doesn't attempt to "go wide" off a bunch of 1/1s - it "goes wide" off those 1/1s boosted by lords.
When you reference a backup plan, I assume you are referring to a secondary win condition outside of your primary one. If your goal is to be able to hit your primary win condition more consistently, you aren't having a backup plan, you are adding redundancy to your deck. In either case, we're just arguing semantics at this point.
How often do you hit 4 lands when playing Vengevine? My average is 3. Most draws I get 2 lands, and on most bad draws I get 4 or 5. So the line of 4 Mana, [card}Gather the Pack[/card] into 2 creatures seems unrealistic to me. I mean sure, as I said I will have the mana on a bad game, so maybe it might make said bad games better. But if I had Cathartic Reunion in my deck instead, I'd have just held onto the extra lands and discarded them to Reunion on earlier turns to draw into more cards.
I need to ask, how awkward are your draws when you get 1 or more Myr SUperion but you don't get any of your Burning-Tree Emissary or Hidden Herbalists? I imagine quite awkward. I know draws can suck sometimes, hell just this weekend I played 5 games in a row on MTGO where I literally drew 0 Vengevines or Hollow Ones. Man were those games awkward. I was still able to draw out wins though through the shear draw power I had access to thanks to Cathartic Reunion being able to draw me cards that Gather the Pack can'tgrab. And I don't play cards taht deny me from getting a second wave of creatures. Cathartic Reunion draws cards, if you'll remember, so It very frequently lets me get that second wave However that doesn't change the fact that there are still road blocks that need to be dealt with.
If you'll look again at that post where I linked the Modern Challenge, I did note that the deck doesn't run any Reunions while running Emissary and Bushwhacker. My argument is solely that Gather the Pack is a ***** card, and if you want to be playing a 2 mana spell to refuel your hand, Cathartic Reunion is better. I agree with BTE and Bushwhacker being decent to possibly amazing for this deck. But while the 4th place list was lacking Reunions, you'll also notice...well....there were no Gather the Packs either
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4 lands is not that uncommon actually. In an 18 land deck you can expect to see 3 lands in the top 10 cards. For an 18-land aggro deck with no card draw like Revolt Zoo I would expect 3 lands is what you'll often win the game on. For this deck, however, Looting and Neonate push you a bit closer towards seeing 4 since they draw you more cards and you're either discarding Vengevines or Commune (to feed Gather) to it.
I've hardcasted Vengevine before, and I'm sure if you ask anyone who's played a Vengevine deck that they'll tell you that it's happened to them too. You have also mentioned that playing Reunion gives you two creatures to get Vengevine back. I can only hope that you casted them on the same turn as the Reunion (especially if one of them was a Hollow One), and that costs 4 mana total (2 for Reunion and 1 for each creature), so in my opinion "how often do you hit 4 lands" was a bit of a stupid question to ask, it clearly happens often enough to be worth mentioning.
Superion + no BTE is not all that awkward, not more awkward than drawing Street Wraith when you don't have Hollow One. It just means I have to loot it away, or play a Commune/Gather on turn 2 for BTE, then Superion on turn 3 instead. That's one reason why Gather the Pack is crucial in the Superion build, which, after all, is what this thread is about. (hint: look at the title again, what do you think the "Super" stands for?)
Sure, let's take a look at the Modern Challenge list that has no Gathers and no Reunions. I can see why he does not have Gathers, because he is not playing BTE + Superion which requires those specific cards together. He's also not playing Mandrills, meaning he doesn't have the T2 Gather, T3 Mandrills + Bushwhacker (+BTE/Herbalists/Vengevine if available) line available to him, so again he has less of a reason to play Gather. Now it's your turn to explain how someone who, in your own words, built his deck wrong by not including Reunion, was able to get 4th at the Modern Challenge.
4 lands is not that uncommon actually. In an 18 land deck you can expect to see 3 lands in the top 10 cards. For an 18-land aggro deck with no card draw like Revolt Zoo I would expect 3 lands is what you'll often win the game on. For this deck, however, Looting and Neonate push you a bit closer towards seeing 4 since they draw you more cards and you're either discarding Vengevines or Commune (to feed Gather) to it.
I've hardcasted Vengevine before, and I'm sure if you ask anyone who's played a Vengevine deck that they'll tell you that it's happened to them too. You have also mentioned that playing Reunion gives you two creatures to get Vengevine back. I can only hope that you casted them on the same turn as the Reunion (especially if one of them was a Hollow One), and that costs 4 mana total (2 for Reunion and 1 for each creature), so in my opinion "how often do you hit 4 lands" was a bit of a stupid question to ask, it clearly happens often enough to be worth mentioning.
Superion + no BTE is not all that awkward, not more awkward than drawing Street Wraith when you don't have Hollow One. It just means I have to loot it away, or play a Commune/Gather on turn 2 for BTE, then Superion on turn 3 instead. That's one reason why Gather the Pack is crucial in the Superion build, which, after all, is what this thread is about. (hint: look at the title again, what do you think the "Super" stands for?)
Sure, let's take a look at the Modern Challenge list that has no Gathers and no Reunions. I can see why he does not have Gathers, because he is not playing BTE + Superion which requires those specific cards together. He's also not playing Mandrills, meaning he doesn't have the T2 Gather, T3 Mandrills + Bushwhacker (+BTE/Herbalists/Vengevine if available) line available to him, so again he has less of a reason to play Gather. Now it's your turn to explain how someone who, in your own words, built his deck wrong by not including Reunion, was able to get 4th at the Modern Challenge.
Most often Hollow One actually costs 0 because of me looting away a third card with something like Insolent Neonate or Faithless Looting or by cycling a Street Wraith. Another reason I asked about how many lands you hit is the comment I said before about how Gather the Pack only grabs creatures. Since Cathartic Reunion draws cards I'm more likely to hit more lands than if I were playing Gather the Pack, which is why I was curious how often you are actually hitting 4 lands in play.
When you have a Myr Superion in hand with no Burning-Tree Emissary, it is vastly different from having a Street WRaith with no Hollow One. You can still use the Street Wraith without Hollow One, it isn't a dead card in your hand. It is a redraw into a more useful card. A Superion is a dead weight garbage card without Emissary that does nothing but rot in your hand. You talk about how Reunion is a bad topdeck. Superion is even worse of a top deck than Reunion is in my opinion. At least with Reunion, you are guaranteed to be able to cast it when you have 2 more cards in hand for the discard. However with Superion, it is only playable when you are lucky enough to draw an Emissary to go with it.
As for the Modern challenge list, I would assume he cut the Reunions because he needed room for the Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker combo he wanted to incorporate into the deck. He wanted to make sure there was room for them. Heck a Lightning Bolt was moved to the sideboard and they even cut themselves down to 17 lands just to make it work. Honestly I don't think those are correct decisions for the list. I tried 17 lands, it is too few to be consistent enough. And as for cutting Bolts, that's fine, you can skim on them a bit without fault. Honestly, I think whoever played the list got extremely lucky. Does that mean I won't try the list out and see how it works? Of course not. But I definitely see issues with the list and think they must have either had a lot of good match ups or draws in order to get that 4th place finish.
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The link in my signature is to one of the Vengevine lists I have been testing out. For all information on that one, I have been discussing it with the folks over in the Dredgevine thread in the Developing Competitive forum. I urge everyone interested to check it out.
The list I am testing at the moment, and the reason why I've been posting in this thread is the following:
I am more than happy to let people brew and be happy. That's fine. And I'm not attacking people, well at least not trying to. If anything I am saying is coming off as attacking, sorry, that wasn't my intent.
I want to create a Vengevine deck that is competitive. Not FNM competitive, GP competitive. As such I am going to throw harsh criticisms at people's ideas for what to do with the deck. I will concede I have not played a lot of games with Myr Superion in the deck, hell maybe it was some bad draws I got that really soured me to the card. WHen school starts up again next week I will have more time on my hands so I will be doing a lot more MTGO testing. Also when I have time I will add the decklist I posted above to my signature, as well as a link to my YouTube channel where I am testing my Vengevine lists.
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Priest of Urabrask wasn't a card I even new existed but I can see it's appeal as wit works with BOTH bushwhackers. Not shore if this will end up being relevant but definitely interesting. Thoughts?
Priest definitely helps make Myr Superion more consistent, though I worry it may be a turn too slow. Definitely interesting though. Legion Loyalist however is all kinds of hilarious. Take that Lingering Souls!
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Priest can only be played turn 3, which hampers its speed. The exception is if you have SSG, but playing that in your deck is another problem in itself. It also only produces red, which makes it impossible to chain into Gather/Mandrills without BTE/Manamorphose to filter. Herbalists' double green has its set of feel-bad situations (like not being able to chain into Bushwhacker without red floating), but off 3 lands it can lead into Mandrills + Bushwhacker or Gather milling Vengevine into 1-drop, neither of which are possible with Priest.
I stick to my suggestion that Hollow One is not great here.
Like Izzetmage explained, after a Boardwipe or an initial attack this deck can come back.
Hole One's not. They are simply one more "All-in" strategy we had so many of in the past couple of years.
The huge difference is that @Izzetmage List rewards good plays, whereas slamming Goblin Guide into Cathartic Reunion ist just awkward - a one-trick pony. Either you got it or you don't.
All the Aggro decks that survived (aka stayed Tier 1) had a plan B.
This deck has too. Hollow Vine not.
Compare both sideboards (which are the epitome of switching gears):
We have great Midrange-Cards (Ooze, Finks), some sort of removal and a great lock piece Blood Moon.
Hollow Vine is not intended to play the midrange game. Once the threats are gone, there plan is gone.
They trade consistency for explosiveness.
It could be done, but the most interesting thing about this deck is, that is able to do a grind-game.
It rewards the right plays, format knowledge and good sideboarding.
Hollow Vine not. Just dump everything and hope for the best.
The sideboard is designed the same way.
How would this deck be able to play the mid-game?
It has just so many dead stuff, it couldn't be boarded out entirely.
Below is the build I've been having much more success with compared to the RG zoo-style builds. I find that the deck is much more resilient and can grind out matches much better than the normal RG build despite being slightly slower.
While I'm personally much more of a fan of my build than the RG one, a card I've not seen much is Ghor-Clan Rampager, which I find odd. Unless you combine it with Become Immense, it's almost always better than Temur Battle Rage as no creature exceeds 4 power and it is very unlikely to be countered as it is not cast. It can also be cast as a creature. I feel like if you're connecting with combination of Become Immense and either GCR or TBR, you're pretty much going to win.
I do like the GCR plan a lot (it discards, too, Hollow One will be happy to see!), but it should be noted one place where TBR is better is when facing deathtouchers. Getting double strike makes sure the deathtoucher never hits you at all, while gaining just more power and trample leads to your creature suffering that deathtouch damage and dying this combat.
I really want to find a place for 1 or 2 Greenbelt Rampager in the main, but I have no idea what to cut. BGx is at an all time low, and my LGS doesn't really have any Deaths Shadow players, but being able to recur Vines in topdeck mode still seems really good.
The Legion Loyalist seems like the most sensible slot for it, but I've found the evasion the little guy provides is too valuable.
Also trying to find some room for Heroic Intervention in the SB
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Honestly, I feel that right now if you aren't trying to run the Hollow One package, you're just doing your Vengevine deck wrong. And to clarify, this is what I see as the Hollow One package:
4x Faithless Looting
4x Hollow One
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
If you don't start your list with these 24 cards, I feel like you are unintentionally limited how powerful your deck can be. The only concession I can make to the above list is that maybe you can cut the Cathartic Reunions down to 3 instead of 4. I do agree it is a horrible topdeck, but:
A) Optimally, you will end the game before you are in topdeck mode
B) You want to see at least 1 Reunion every single game, so running any less than 3 is a terrible idea.
I know personally, I want to build a competitive deck I am confident I can take to PPTQs or GPs and win with. For anyone who is just working on cute casual fun things to take to a not-to-serious Modern event, keep doing what you're doing. I hope you're enjoying the deck and having a blast with it.
As for others like me, well...yeah. If you are disregarding Hollow One you are doing yourself a disservice. At the end of the day, to quote the very first sentence in the Primer:
With that said, this is the list I have been testing with:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Stomping Ground
2x Copperline Gorge
5x Mountain
Creatures - 26
4x Hollow One
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
3x Goblin Guide
3x Memnite
4x Faithless Looting
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Become Immense
3x Cathartic Reunion
2x Temur Battle Rage
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Blood Moon
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Feed the Clan
2x Lightning Axe
1x Goblin Guide
1x Grim Lavamancer
I have a Youtube channel where I've been uploading myself playing Leagues with the Vengevine deck here's a link if you're interested in watching.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
There are some occasional gameplay differences (Memnite makes a T1 Vengevine possible), but it seems to me like in most circumstances, they have the same net cost (Cantor refunds its mana cost) - Cantor gets you one more card in grave (cheapening a Delve spell) and fixes / ramps mana in a pinch. In this deck, it seems to me like a net-0-cost 1/1 in your graveyard is more useful than a 0-cost 1/1 on the battlefield.
I even wonder if Ornithopter would be better than Memnite. A 1/1 swinging is unlikely to really make a difference in this deck - with flying, Ornithopter is more likely to be unblocked and then Become Immense really does make a difference.
Walking Ballista? When you need the Vengevine trigger on limited mana you can turf it for X=0 and get a creature-cast (just like you do for Memnite) and another card in grave for delve. Later in the game you can cast it for a bigger X to gun down blockers or finishing face damage.
Let me try to explain why I feel that if you aren't running my proposes 23-24 cards you are building the deck wrong. First I want to point out you very well could add the whole BTE package to my 23-24 cards, and you could still have a great deck. Hell I've even been considering trying it out myself. Anyway...
4x Vengevine: This is the reason we're playing the deck. NEXT
4x Faithless Looting: I don't think I have to argue this one that much since everyone here seems to be running it. It is the best and cheapest card this deck has access to that allows us to dig through our deck while also letting us discard our Vengevines. There is literally no replacement for this card. If you aren't running Looting, I don't know what you're doing trying to play a Vengevine deck.
4x Insolent Neonate: This one is just as important as Faithless Looting. You have no idea how many games I have won off of being able to cast Neonate, and then saccing it to discard Vengevine and instantly recurring said Vengevine. It is a way for the deck to very easily play around graveyard hate. Like Faithless Looting, if you aren't running these, I am sorry but you are just wrong.
3-4x Cathartic Reunion: I've seen the argument that this is a bad top-deck. Sure. Though I have to ask a question. Why are you getting to a point to where you are in top-deck mode? Why is your opponent not shuffling up for the next game? Why are they not signing the match-slip with 40 minutes still remaining in the round? I've seen people running Gather the Pack, or Commune with the Gods, or Grisly Salvage, but you won't run Reunion? Are you insane? Look, I can see why they seem alluring. You get to look at 5 cards, grab one you want, toss the rest into your graveyard. What is there are 4 Vengevines you get to get rid of? What is there are 3? 2? What about if it's the more likely scenario where there are exactly 0 Vengevines and you just got rid of 4 cards you'd have rather held in your hand? What if you want to recur Vengevine(s) on turn 2, but you only have 1 creature in hand? Well you can't cast any of those and get anything to help you recur Vengevine. This is why Reunion is a key card here. You:
1) Discard cards that are in your hand that you know you don't want in the current scenario
2) Draw 3 cards, which makes you able to get full use out of every card in your deck, instead of just uselessly pitching some AND
3) It synergizes perfectly with Hollow One, which with only one more cycle or discard can be cast for absolutely free, which can recur your Vengevines. All of this brings me to:
4x Street Wraith & Hollow One: I list these 2 together, because with Hollow One, you don't want to run Street Wraith. But to make Hollow One work more consistently you need Street Wraith. They are an 8 card package that if you remove one half, you need to remove the other. So why are these 8 cards so damn good? The answer is quite simple really. You get to cast FREE 4/4 creatures which will reanimate your Vengevines. You can chain Neonate into Looting, into Hollow One to recur Vengevine. You can cycle Street Wraith, and cast Reunion and cast 2 Hollow Ones to recur Vengevine. They make the prospect of getting a Vengevine in play so consistent, it's ridiculous. Add to that the fact that the creature you are casting to recur your Vengevine isn't some 1/1, or 2/2, but a 4/4. And not just any 4/4. A 4/4 that dodges Fatal Push. Hot damn! That is some mad aggro plays if I have ever seen any.
As I said, you can add whatever else you want to the deck, but I feel you are doing a disservice to yourself if you don't run the 23-24 cards I have suggested above. They're just too good.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
4th Place RG Vengevine
This list incorporates both the Hollow One strategy I mentioned above (sans the Reunions) while also incorporating the BTE card suite as well.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Currently testing a lot before settling on a new list. Vengevine is one of my favorite card. My deck right now is a straight black and Green vengevine, but as @skitzafreak said in the other vengevine thread, red is a must have. I've been trying really hard to make black/green work, but I've now come to the realization if I want to be more competitive, faithless looting and insolent neonate are just too good.
I'm not sold on cathartic reunion however. If reunion was draw 3 then discard 2, it would be bonkers. But unfortunately, discarding before the draw is much worse. Regarding cathartic VS gather the pack, IMO, gather the pack is better. You "dig" deeper into your library (more chance to reveal a vine) and you get to pick what you want to keep. You can even keep 0 if that's what you prefer. In my testing (it may be a piloting error), cathartic often feels very bad when you draw into a vengevine if you have no other way to discard it. Hollow one is really what makes cathartic reunion shines, IMO. On the other hand, gather is better at fueling delve.
That 4th place vengevine list is super interesting. I have not seen how it was played, but it seems to me that the vengevine / hollow one are less important in this deck. Swinging with gobling guides, BTE and bushwackers is a solid strategy that can win games by itself, after all.
- Titanshift. They play their Titan, grab two lands. You kill it. They rip lands/ramp spells off the top and Bolt you anyway. You die.
- Storm. They go for Gifts/Past, you counter it. They rip Gifts/Past off the top (6 copies in their deck total with Peer to dig for it, so it's not an absolute fluke), or flashback Past, and combo again.
- Dredge. They put out a bunch of Bloodghasts and Amalgams, you kill them with not-Anger. They play a land, get all their Bloodghasts and Amalgams back.
- Infect, before Probe ban. They play a Blighted Agent with Inkmoth Nexus as backup next turn, stretching your removal thin.
If you're building the deck with the "speed at all costs" mentality you're doing it wrong. This goes doubly so for this deck, because you're forfeiting a huge benefit of Vengevine: it comes back over and over again. I don't know about you, but I don't want to put everything into one assault, have it stopped, then say "oh well gg, guess that's what I get for playing Cathartic Reunion in my deck lol". I want to play two more creatures and get that Vengevine (with haste) back into play. Gather the Pack lets me do just that.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I may have been quick with my reasoning because I wanted to get that post over and done with, as it's the third time I've gone over the benefits of Cathartic Reunion with people wanting to play Vengevine decks and it is getting increasingly tedious.
What's funny about all your examples of "back-up plans" is that the Infect example is the only case of an actual back-up plan.
Valakut bolting you in the face every time your opponent plays lands after they've gotten it via Titan or Scapeshift is not a backup plan, it's the main plan for how the deck works.
Topdecking Gifts/Past in Flames after counter one is not a back up plan either. The Gifts package has been included, not as a backup plan for Storm, but to make the deck redundant to only accomplish Plan A. A better example of a Storm backup would be them going on the offensive with Goblin Electromancer and winning via combat damage that way.
In the same note, Dredge's entire Plan A revolves around being able to get creatures back from the graveyard in multiple ways. So no, Playing a land to recur Bloodghasts/Amalgams (which they wouldn't be able to do if you killed them all with an Anger I might add, they'd be exiled) is literally a key example of Dredge Plan A. Dredge's actual Plan B is Conflagrate with Life from the Loam.
There is a reason my mantra for Vengevine is "speed at all costs". The Top 5 decks of the format are essentially Grixis Shadow, Eldrazi-Tron, Affinity, TItanshift, and Gifts Storm. Grixis Shadow and Eldrazi Tron can very early play creatures that just road block us hard. If we're throwing our 4/3's into 4/5's and 5/5's it doesn't matter how many times we reanimate the damn thing, that 4/5 or 5/5 is not dying. You had two options to get around these road blocks, you can go wide, or you can try to go faster.
If you look at the list I posted, I actually opt for both. Through playing a lot of creatures like Hollow One, Goblin Guide, and Memnite I am able to play a lot of creatures and make my board huge, thus going wide. This also allows me to recur my Vengevines was quickly as possible, and with other Haste creatures like Guide and Swiftspear, I am at the same time, going fast.
The reason Cathartic Reunion is, in my opinion, essential for this deck, and so much better than the garbage (again, my opinion) that is Gather the Pack, is because it enables both of these plans. It enables you to go wide by allowing you to draw into more cards, which lets you draw and play more creatures. It allows you to go fast in that it lets you discard your Vengevines and makes your Hollow One cheaper to recur those Vengevines.
I think everyone dislikes Cathartic Reunion because they think that they need to cast it, and they need to cast every copy they draw. Thus the arguments for it being a horrible top deck. However you in fact don't need to cast every single Cathartic Reunion. Hell my rule of thumb is 1 Reunion per game, unless the game state dictates otherwise.
Now obviously that poses the question; If I only want to be casting 1 Reunion per game, why am I advocating for 3-4 of them in the deck? Obviously that is so you can guarantee yourself to most often get that one Cathartic Reunion to cast every game. Most of the time I am discarding other Cathartic Reunions to cast my first Cathartic Reunion if I don't have Vengevines to get rid of.
The final reason I prefer Cthartic Reunion over something like Gather the Pack, is because you get to cast all your cards. Sometimes what you need to win isn't some creatures to recur Vengevine. Instead you need to just punch through a bunch of damage on 1 blocker with a Become Immense, or you need to hit your opponent's face with a Lightning Bolt. Well good luck getting those if you're playing Gather the Pack. In that case you're in "oh my god please give me what I need" topdeck mode. In that case you don't even want to cast your Gather the Pack since you might just essentially mill over the cards you need to win. Reunion on the other hand can help you draw into those cards.
There have been literally 0 games I have played with this deck where I would have wanted Gather the Pack (or Grisly Salvage, or all the other repeats of this effect) over Cathartic Reunion. Because Reunion is just that much better.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Of course, given enough draw steps, you can execute whatever plan you intend to again. The examples that I mentioned are exceptional because it takes a very short amount of time to execute the backup. I don't have to wait 7 turns to draw 7 cards so that I can Storm again, I just flashback Past in Flames and I'm there. Gather the Pack is on that level - it lets you go from 4 mana with Gather in hand to 3 bodies on the field on the same turn.
The Superion build has 8 free creatures for going wide. BTE and Herbalists are bigger than Memnite. It has Superions, which outsize 4/5s and 5/5s. Vengevine (or Mandrills) with Bushwhacker's pump trades with 4/5s and 5/5s. Actually you're getting more out of that trade because Vengevine can come back again, but if you build your deck with cards that deny you from getting a second wave of creatures, you won't know that, will you?
I think you would do well to look at the Modern Challenge decklist again and notice how it doesn't play any Reunions, and has BTE + Bushwhacker instead. BTE is way better than Memnite. It doesn't even get in the way of turn 2 Vengevine because you can go BTE, Looting, use green to cast Hollow One, get Vengevine back. Bushwhacker makes your "going wide" threat credible because it pumps your creatures, something that you seem to have left out. Affinity doesn't attempt to "go wide" off a bunch of 1/1s - it "goes wide" off those 1/1s boosted by lords.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
When you reference a backup plan, I assume you are referring to a secondary win condition outside of your primary one. If your goal is to be able to hit your primary win condition more consistently, you aren't having a backup plan, you are adding redundancy to your deck. In either case, we're just arguing semantics at this point.
How often do you hit 4 lands when playing Vengevine? My average is 3. Most draws I get 2 lands, and on most bad draws I get 4 or 5. So the line of 4 Mana, [card}Gather the Pack[/card] into 2 creatures seems unrealistic to me. I mean sure, as I said I will have the mana on a bad game, so maybe it might make said bad games better. But if I had Cathartic Reunion in my deck instead, I'd have just held onto the extra lands and discarded them to Reunion on earlier turns to draw into more cards.
I need to ask, how awkward are your draws when you get 1 or more Myr SUperion but you don't get any of your Burning-Tree Emissary or Hidden Herbalists? I imagine quite awkward. I know draws can suck sometimes, hell just this weekend I played 5 games in a row on MTGO where I literally drew 0 Vengevines or Hollow Ones. Man were those games awkward. I was still able to draw out wins though through the shear draw power I had access to thanks to Cathartic Reunion being able to draw me cards that Gather the Pack can't grab. And I don't play cards taht deny me from getting a second wave of creatures. Cathartic Reunion draws cards, if you'll remember, so It very frequently lets me get that second wave However that doesn't change the fact that there are still road blocks that need to be dealt with.
If you'll look again at that post where I linked the Modern Challenge, I did note that the deck doesn't run any Reunions while running Emissary and Bushwhacker. My argument is solely that Gather the Pack is a ***** card, and if you want to be playing a 2 mana spell to refuel your hand, Cathartic Reunion is better. I agree with BTE and Bushwhacker being decent to possibly amazing for this deck. But while the 4th place list was lacking Reunions, you'll also notice...well....there were no Gather the Packs either
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I've hardcasted Vengevine before, and I'm sure if you ask anyone who's played a Vengevine deck that they'll tell you that it's happened to them too. You have also mentioned that playing Reunion gives you two creatures to get Vengevine back. I can only hope that you casted them on the same turn as the Reunion (especially if one of them was a Hollow One), and that costs 4 mana total (2 for Reunion and 1 for each creature), so in my opinion "how often do you hit 4 lands" was a bit of a stupid question to ask, it clearly happens often enough to be worth mentioning.
Superion + no BTE is not all that awkward, not more awkward than drawing Street Wraith when you don't have Hollow One. It just means I have to loot it away, or play a Commune/Gather on turn 2 for BTE, then Superion on turn 3 instead. That's one reason why Gather the Pack is crucial in the Superion build, which, after all, is what this thread is about. (hint: look at the title again, what do you think the "Super" stands for?)
Sure, let's take a look at the Modern Challenge list that has no Gathers and no Reunions. I can see why he does not have Gathers, because he is not playing BTE + Superion which requires those specific cards together. He's also not playing Mandrills, meaning he doesn't have the T2 Gather, T3 Mandrills + Bushwhacker (+BTE/Herbalists/Vengevine if available) line available to him, so again he has less of a reason to play Gather. Now it's your turn to explain how someone who, in your own words, built his deck wrong by not including Reunion, was able to get 4th at the Modern Challenge.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
That awkwardness is part of the reason I've replaced Myr Superions with Lupine Prototypes in my recent experiments.
Most often Hollow One actually costs 0 because of me looting away a third card with something like Insolent Neonate or Faithless Looting or by cycling a Street Wraith. Another reason I asked about how many lands you hit is the comment I said before about how Gather the Pack only grabs creatures. Since Cathartic Reunion draws cards I'm more likely to hit more lands than if I were playing Gather the Pack, which is why I was curious how often you are actually hitting 4 lands in play.
When you have a Myr Superion in hand with no Burning-Tree Emissary, it is vastly different from having a Street WRaith with no Hollow One. You can still use the Street Wraith without Hollow One, it isn't a dead card in your hand. It is a redraw into a more useful card. A Superion is a dead weight garbage card without Emissary that does nothing but rot in your hand. You talk about how Reunion is a bad topdeck. Superion is even worse of a top deck than Reunion is in my opinion. At least with Reunion, you are guaranteed to be able to cast it when you have 2 more cards in hand for the discard. However with Superion, it is only playable when you are lucky enough to draw an Emissary to go with it.
As for the Modern challenge list, I would assume he cut the Reunions because he needed room for the Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker combo he wanted to incorporate into the deck. He wanted to make sure there was room for them. Heck a Lightning Bolt was moved to the sideboard and they even cut themselves down to 17 lands just to make it work. Honestly I don't think those are correct decisions for the list. I tried 17 lands, it is too few to be consistent enough. And as for cutting Bolts, that's fine, you can skim on them a bit without fault. Honestly, I think whoever played the list got extremely lucky. Does that mean I won't try the list out and see how it works? Of course not. But I definitely see issues with the list and think they must have either had a lot of good match ups or draws in order to get that 4th place finish.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
The list I am testing at the moment, and the reason why I've been posting in this thread is the following:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Stomping Ground
2x Copperline Gorge
5x Mountain
Creatures - 26
4x Hollow One
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
3x Goblin Guide
3x Memnite
4x Faithless Looting
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Become Immense
3x Cathartic Reunion
2x Temur Battle Rage
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Blood Moon
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Feed the Clan
2x Lightning Axe
1x Goblin Guide
1x Grim Lavamancer
I am more than happy to let people brew and be happy. That's fine. And I'm not attacking people, well at least not trying to. If anything I am saying is coming off as attacking, sorry, that wasn't my intent.
I want to create a Vengevine deck that is competitive. Not FNM competitive, GP competitive. As such I am going to throw harsh criticisms at people's ideas for what to do with the deck. I will concede I have not played a lot of games with Myr Superion in the deck, hell maybe it was some bad draws I got that really soured me to the card. WHen school starts up again next week I will have more time on my hands so I will be doing a lot more MTGO testing. Also when I have time I will add the decklist I posted above to my signature, as well as a link to my YouTube channel where I am testing my Vengevine lists.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Priest definitely helps make Myr Superion more consistent, though I worry it may be a turn too slow. Definitely interesting though. Legion Loyalist however is all kinds of hilarious. Take that Lingering Souls!
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Like Izzetmage explained, after a Boardwipe or an initial attack this deck can come back.
Hole One's not. They are simply one more "All-in" strategy we had so many of in the past couple of years.
The huge difference is that @Izzetmage List rewards good plays, whereas slamming Goblin Guide into Cathartic Reunion ist just awkward - a one-trick pony. Either you got it or you don't.
All the Aggro decks that survived (aka stayed Tier 1) had a plan B.
This deck has too. Hollow Vine not.
Compare both sideboards (which are the epitome of switching gears):
We have great Midrange-Cards (Ooze, Finks), some sort of removal and a great lock piece Blood Moon.
Hollow Vine is not intended to play the midrange game. Once the threats are gone, there plan is gone.
They trade consistency for explosiveness.
It could be done, but the most interesting thing about this deck is, that is able to do a grind-game.
It rewards the right plays, format knowledge and good sideboarding.
Hollow Vine not. Just dump everything and hope for the best.
The sideboard is designed the same way.
How would this deck be able to play the mid-game?
It has just so many dead stuff, it couldn't be boarded out entirely.
Green @ it's best
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp
Creatures - 25
4x Hollow One
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Temur Battle Rage
Sorceries - 12
4x Cathartic Reunion
4x Faithless Looting
4x Thoughtseize
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Big Game Hunter
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Destructive Revelry
3x Collective Brutality
Sideboard is currently WIP. Thinking about testing Claim // Fame and Driven // Despair to shore up the Junk and Control matches. I've also been testing Call to the Netherworld, which can be busted with the right nut draws (had 3 Hollow Ones out Turn 1 when comboing this with Street Wraith and Insolent Neonate.
There was a build similar to mine that went 5-0 running a reanimator package that I don't think has been discussed:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-brg-40658#paper
While I'm personally much more of a fan of my build than the RG one, a card I've not seen much is Ghor-Clan Rampager, which I find odd. Unless you combine it with Become Immense, it's almost always better than Temur Battle Rage as no creature exceeds 4 power and it is very unlikely to be countered as it is not cast. It can also be cast as a creature. I feel like if you're connecting with combination of Become Immense and either GCR or TBR, you're pretty much going to win.
WRGBurnGRW
RBGJund Shadowvine[/mana]gbr[/mana]
RGTooth & NailGR
Standard:
BGBG Energy ConstrictorGB
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/super-vengevine-1/
I really want to find a place for 1 or 2 Greenbelt Rampager in the main, but I have no idea what to cut. BGx is at an all time low, and my LGS doesn't really have any Deaths Shadow players, but being able to recur Vines in topdeck mode still seems really good.
The Legion Loyalist seems like the most sensible slot for it, but I've found the evasion the little guy provides is too valuable.
Also trying to find some room for Heroic Intervention in the SB