I strongly disagree. First because talk like that really isn't suggesting there be another thread to allow discussion on another track to flourish, it's really yelling 'get out of my thread!', but also, there's a whole lot in common between the two flavours and the best way to discuss the pros and cons of the approaches is to have a thread where variations on the theme are discussed rather than exiled.
I'm running a Hollow One build myself, and it shares a great degree of overlap with the OP's deck. Neonate Looting Bolt BTE Whacker Vengevine and a big 2-drop artifact (as noted above, I subbed Myr Superion to Lupine Prototype) - it's a dialect difference to go more all-in on hand-to-grave play and play that strength into Hollow One, rather than the OP's library-to-grave tactic (arrived at before Hollow One was even an option). My deck is probably closer to halfway between the OP deck and the blacksplash Shadow/Wraith/Call variant, so where would I be allowed to discuss that? What if the people in the other thread decided my input wasn't welcome because I dare run Flamewake Phoenix, like people here are trying to do to people who dare run Hollow One?
Plz don't kill the compare contrast discussion, it is valuable, even if it means others are opting not to play the version of the deck you think is purer and (gasp) want to discuss the relative merits of their variation compared to the grandfather.
I think Street Wraith is fine but I seriously don't want to draw very many of them. Compared to DS, when the game goes late, they don't fuel explosive turns where you stick a Hollow One and VVine in the same turn -- which is the one trick that this deck does.
Is there no worry about how bad Cathartic Reunion is once you can no longer pay its additional cost? After an explosive T2-3 you've played out most of your hand, then you draw CR on T3-4 and you don't even have two other cards to pitch to it anymore? It seems to me to be one of those "Great in your opening hand, bad to topdeck" cards...
...It could just be my Lupine Prototypes talking though.
Sometimes Cathartic reunion is bad but most of the time it isn't in my experience. Worst case is discarding it to a flashbacked looting. But I see your point. I cut them to 2 or 3...
Regarding Hollow One:
I guess if some people play Mandrils, Hollow one has to be welcome here! All creatures that are cheap to cast (to trigger Vengevine) and can do something on their own (not just useless 1/1) are doing good in this deck.
Pretty straightforward. 3 cards that cause discards. 2 cards that you want to discard. 1 color of mana. Some pretty bonkers T2s and T3s.
The Bloodrage Brawler, Hollow One, and Flamewake Phoenix go together so nice... because each of the first two is inherently big enough to trigger Flamewake's comeback ability, and the Flamewake often goes to the grave in the process of getting one of the other two into play (either as part of the discard that made Hollow One cheaper, or as Bloodrage's discard).
May replace some mountains with Ramunap Ruins once I get them.
I had a good look at it, and it's still on my maybelist, but instant combat tricks and Lupine Prototype don't play together very well. I need to cast my TBR before declaring attack or Lupine can't be declared, but then I lose the option of casting the TBR with the benefit of knowing blocking.
I was also giving some thought to Fling in a similar capacity, but it has a similar problem.
An earlier version of the deck that was running the Myr Superions instead of Lupine Prototypes was running Kari Zev's Expertise as a secondary way of getting the Superion into play. There was also a short dabble in black-splash for Claim // Fame.
Been having a blast with a version closer to izzetmage's original list. Deck is not bad for my meta but a lot of matchups come down to topdecking and opening hands. Magus of the Moon is in there mainly there because I didn't feel like buying another Blood Moon but the cheese factor can be funny sometimes. An extra forest was added in place of Copperline Gorge mainly because fetching shocks an additional shock ended up costing me the game sometimes. I never really felt like I needed more than 1 dual land. I switched 2 communes for Grapple with the Past because often times what I was looking for was already in the grave. The only card I'm not so sure about is Legion Loyalist in place of a third Hooting Mandrills.
I think Street Wraith is fine but I seriously don't want to draw very many of them. Compared to DS, when the game goes late, they don't fuel explosive turns where you stick a Hollow One and VVine in the same turn -- which is the one trick that this deck does.
This point is kind of moot when you realize the point of this deck is to win early and fast. It doesn't matter that Street Wraith is a bad late game draw as you shouldn't be getting to the late game. Your opponent should already be dead by then. Cutting Wraiths effectively cuts down on your consistency to have hyper aggressive openers.
All in all I think JGM's list from the SCG Open was pretty good. I threw it together on MTGO and had some fun over a few games. But let me give you a highlight game that was possible because of Street Wraith.
I've been having a lot of fun jamming this archetype after seeing the JGM version do decently well. My spin is a bit more in the creature-centric direction and so I've made considerable changes:
The problem I had with the usual version is that there was a push and pull between Monastery Swiftspear and Vengevine. One rewards you for playing creatures, one for playing non-creatures. It still had as many cheap creatures, but it wasn't helping against slower decks that were able to pick off what you pumped with Become Immense and the other pump spell.
Faerie Macabre has been insane in the maindeck, not only able to thwart opposing Vengevines but able to act as another ritual effect for our Hollow Ones.
The overall main piece to this list that gives it the kind of game it has is the Fauna Shaman tech. Makes all your very narrow sideboard slots that much better, while being able to act as our set up play. Where the JGM version has actual pump spells, this can fetch your Ghor-Clan for a game winning blow.
I'll elaborate on the list and provide a write-up on all the testing of multiple iterations. It's late and I need to catch up on work tomorrow.
As a final note, I can say I've been meaning to find the best ways of dealing with Anger of the Gods. My picks so far:
When I saw JGM's list I was intrigued at the possibility to include some Zoo technology into it; Experiment One allows some special Christmas Land openings though:
When I saw JGM's list I was intrigued at the possibility to include some Zoo technology into it; Experiment One allows some special Christmas Land openings though:
Out of the side, Driven // Despair has been doing some work to help refill our hand, plus no one expects all our threats to get Menace (via Despair).
I owned a revolt zoo. Sadly, it doesnt play well in this meta. By saw Julian play this deck. I had make a list, not RG but in naya shell. I am playing nacatl instead of experiment one. Path as a solution for the deck bad matchups such as eldrazi, titan, wurmcoil etc.
I owned a revolt zoo. Sadly, it doesnt play well in this meta. By saw Julian play this deck. I had make a list, not RG but in naya shell. I am playing nacatl instead of experiment one. Path as a solution for the deck bad matchups such as eldrazi, titan, wurmcoil etc.
The problem with Experiment One is that outside of Turn 1-2, it is like drawing an empty sleeve. So I am tempted to replace them with Death's Shadow and add some B to the manabase. Zombie Infestation is another option, giving us access to free discard and free blockers at instant speed...
Any thought to Greenbelt Rampager? All on its own it can trigger a Vengevine revival - something very few other cards you might topdeck after emptying your hand could do.
I strongly disagree. First because talk like that really isn't suggesting there be another thread to allow discussion on another track to flourish, it's really yelling 'get out of my thread!', but also, there's a whole lot in common between the two flavours and the best way to discuss the pros and cons of the approaches is to have a thread where variations on the theme are discussed rather than exiled.
I'm running a Hollow One build myself, and it shares a great degree of overlap with the OP's deck. Neonate Looting Bolt BTE Whacker Vengevine and a big 2-drop artifact (as noted above, I subbed Myr Superion to Lupine Prototype) - it's a dialect difference to go more all-in on hand-to-grave play and play that strength into Hollow One, rather than the OP's library-to-grave tactic (arrived at before Hollow One was even an option). My deck is probably closer to halfway between the OP deck and the blacksplash Shadow/Wraith/Call variant, so where would I be allowed to discuss that? What if the people in the other thread decided my input wasn't welcome because I dare run Flamewake Phoenix, like people here are trying to do to people who dare run Hollow One?
Plz don't kill the compare contrast discussion, it is valuable, even if it means others are opting not to play the version of the deck you think is purer and (gasp) want to discuss the relative merits of their variation compared to the grandfather.
This is ridiculous I have never posted in this thread, before suggesting another thread. The original deck in the primer and the r/g vengevine list from SCG recently are completely different decks we can keep discussing it here but my guess is the orginal primer should be re written then.
This is ridiculous I have never posted in this thread, before suggesting another thread. The original deck in the primer and the r/g vengevine list from SCG recently are completely different decks we can keep discussing it here but my guess is the orginal primer should be re written then.
Someone else has already made a Hollow One thread. You're free to post there if you want.
I've ran the deck at some tournaments and was really confused about the discussion here.
Hollow One puts the deck in another spot and deserved another thread for it.
The difference in both decks are the following ones:
Vengevine Aggro is not a one-trick Pony. This deck has a lategame.
It has self-mill spells and is able to bust out crazy Haste 5/3's and so on.
The payoff-Spells are Hooting Mandrills (costs literally 1 Mana) and Vengevine (triggered by a lot of creatures.
It has the ability to "tutor" (not in a common sense) for Enchantments or Creatures.
Reckless Bushwhacker allows for explosive instant-win turns even if we are far behind.
Hollow One on the other side warps the deck this way, that a lot of discard-stuff is needed (Cathartic Reunion).
This leads to pretty ugly situations when players draw like a Reunion and just held 1 other Card.
I can't see how this deck is supposed to come back after it is on his backfoot once. Gather the Pack mills, "tutors" and gives card advantage (if you are playing well) - Reunion can't do that.
It's a one-trick Pony, simple as that.
Im not gonna see how Hollow-Decks suppose to do the midrange-Game.
It's just too much stuff in the deck that does not line up well on it's own.
Reunion into an empty hand, Hollow One with no discard, Delve-Guys looking for a fueled graveyard (that can't be done by a single Cathartic), the enablers for Vengevine are mediocre on it's own (Swiftspear + Guide and Vengevine deals 7 damage, Burning-Tree into Bushwhacker triggering Vengevine deals 10 at all - you get the idea).
The only upside i watch out for are the pump-Spells, but again they need a fueled Grave (Become Immense) or 2 Mana (BAttle Rage).
Myr superion with only Emissarys for the mana is tough. I am also not sure about the Grim Flayer... If you want to use black maybe you can check out drown in filth... I always wanted to use that card Even Bloodghasts work well in this deck (especially with Bushwhacker)! Tasigur seems ok-ish, Kolaghans Command seems too much the controle-way, I dont know...
Myr superion with only Emissarys for the mana is tough.
There's Claim // Fame to cheat it in as well. With 14 cards that can usher it into the grave from either library or hand, I don't think his deck is left with a stranded Superion often. If one is in hand without a BTE partner, it just becomes the next-best-thing to pitch after Vengevines.
amic: a sideboard suggestion: Kari Zev's Expertise. Not a card you want against combo or go-wide aggro, but against midrange decks or decks that win with big fat, it can be huge to steal their fattest blocker T3 and be able to freecast a Superion or Flayer on the side.
So guys why on earth is flamekin harbinger not played? it tutors for vengevine which is what this deck wants the most getting more consistent vengevines and it's another one-drop creature for vengevine. I've been playing 2 recently and it feels pretty great getting to play 2 more vengevines. Sometimes it can be a little awkward playing with it and because you guarantee your not drawing land next turn, I might try bumping the land count up to twenty idk. What are y'alls thoughts?
So guys why on earth is flamekin harbinger not played? it tutors for vengevine which is what this deck wants the most getting more consistent vengevines and it's another one-drop creature for vengevine. I've been playing 2 recently and it feels pretty great getting to play 2 more vengevines. Sometimes it can be a little awkward playing with it and because you guarantee your not drawing land next turn, I might try bumping the land count up to twenty idk. What are y'alls thoughts?
The problem with Flamekin Harbinger is that it puts Vengevine on top of your library, not in your hand. Meaning you need to draw with Faithless Looting or some other effect to get it into your hand. I think it's too much work trying to setup Vengevine, and not enough of...well, doing anything.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I agree.
I'm running a Hollow One build myself, and it shares a great degree of overlap with the OP's deck. Neonate Looting Bolt BTE Whacker Vengevine and a big 2-drop artifact (as noted above, I subbed Myr Superion to Lupine Prototype) - it's a dialect difference to go more all-in on hand-to-grave play and play that strength into Hollow One, rather than the OP's library-to-grave tactic (arrived at before Hollow One was even an option). My deck is probably closer to halfway between the OP deck and the blacksplash Shadow/Wraith/Call variant, so where would I be allowed to discuss that? What if the people in the other thread decided my input wasn't welcome because I dare run Flamewake Phoenix, like people here are trying to do to people who dare run Hollow One?
Plz don't kill the compare contrast discussion, it is valuable, even if it means others are opting not to play the version of the deck you think is purer and (gasp) want to discuss the relative merits of their variation compared to the grandfather.
Some thoughts:
-- I like Swiftspear
-- I like Hollow One
-- I like Cathartic Reunion
4 Hollow One
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Vengevine
2 Street Wraith
4 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
2 Become Immense
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
I think Street Wraith is fine but I seriously don't want to draw very many of them. Compared to DS, when the game goes late, they don't fuel explosive turns where you stick a Hollow One and VVine in the same turn -- which is the one trick that this deck does.
...It could just be my Lupine Prototypes talking though.
Regarding Hollow One:
I guess if some people play Mandrils, Hollow one has to be welcome here! All creatures that are cheap to cast (to trigger Vengevine) and can do something on their own (not just useless 1/1) are doing good in this deck.
4 Lupine Prototype
4 Bloodrage Brawler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
4 Lightning Bolt
20 Mountain
Pretty straightforward. 3 cards that cause discards. 2 cards that you want to discard. 1 color of mana. Some pretty bonkers T2s and T3s.
The Bloodrage Brawler, Hollow One, and Flamewake Phoenix go together so nice... because each of the first two is inherently big enough to trigger Flamewake's comeback ability, and the Flamewake often goes to the grave in the process of getting one of the other two into play (either as part of the discard that made Hollow One cheaper, or as Bloodrage's discard).
May replace some mountains with Ramunap Ruins once I get them.
I was also giving some thought to Fling in a similar capacity, but it has a similar problem.
An earlier version of the deck that was running the Myr Superions instead of Lupine Prototypes was running Kari Zev's Expertise as a secondary way of getting the Superion into play. There was also a short dabble in black-splash for Claim // Fame.
1x Arid Mesa
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Mountain
2x Forest
3x Copperline Gorge
2x Stomping Ground
Spells
4x Faithless Looting
2x Commune with the Gods
4x Gather the Pack
2x Grapple with the Past
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Hidden Herbalists
2x Hooting Mandrills
4x Insolent Neonate
1x Legion Loyalist
3x Myr Superion
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
4x Vengevine
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Blood Moon
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Life Goes On
2x Lightning Axe
1x Magus of the Moon
2x Ravenous Trap
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Seal of Primordium
This point is kind of moot when you realize the point of this deck is to win early and fast. It doesn't matter that Street Wraith is a bad late game draw as you shouldn't be getting to the late game. Your opponent should already be dead by then. Cutting Wraiths effectively cuts down on your consistency to have hyper aggressive openers.
All in all I think JGM's list from the SCG Open was pretty good. I threw it together on MTGO and had some fun over a few games. But let me give you a highlight game that was possible because of Street Wraith.
Turn 1:
Cycle Street Wraith
Wooded Foothills, fetch Stomping Ground
Cast Faithless Looting discarding Vengevine and Monastery Swiftspear.
Cast 2 [card}Hollow One[/card]s, recur Vengevine, attack for 4
Turn 2:
Play Mountain
Attack for 12
2x Lightning Bolt for lethal
I wish I had recorded it
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
4x Goblin Guide
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Hollow One
4x Vengevine
3x Fauna Shaman
4x Street Wraith
4x Faerie Macabre
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Faithless Looting
3x Cathartic Reunion
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Arid Mesa
2x Copperline Gorge
3x Stomping Ground
4x Mountain
1x Heroic Intervention
1x Greater Gargadon
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Ingot Chewer
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Feed the Clan
2x Lightning Axe
1x Domri Rade
2x Arc Trail
The problem I had with the usual version is that there was a push and pull between Monastery Swiftspear and Vengevine. One rewards you for playing creatures, one for playing non-creatures. It still had as many cheap creatures, but it wasn't helping against slower decks that were able to pick off what you pumped with Become Immense and the other pump spell.
Faerie Macabre has been insane in the maindeck, not only able to thwart opposing Vengevines but able to act as another ritual effect for our Hollow Ones.
The overall main piece to this list that gives it the kind of game it has is the Fauna Shaman tech. Makes all your very narrow sideboard slots that much better, while being able to act as our set up play. Where the JGM version has actual pump spells, this can fetch your Ghor-Clan for a game winning blow.
I'll elaborate on the list and provide a write-up on all the testing of multiple iterations. It's late and I need to catch up on work tomorrow.
As a final note, I can say I've been meaning to find the best ways of dealing with Anger of the Gods. My picks so far:
Heroic Intervention
Greater Gargadon
Jinxed Idol
Gluttonous Slime
Any other considerations would be greatly appreciated, even if they're bullets for Fauna Shaman
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hollow One
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Street Wraith
4 Vengevine
2 Become Immense
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Temur Battle Rage
2 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Moon
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Lightning Axe
1 Domri Rade
2 Collective Brutality
2 Driven // Despair
1 By Force
When I saw JGM's list I was intrigued at the possibility to include some Zoo technology into it; Experiment One allows some special Christmas Land openings though:
T1 Stomping Ground, Experiment One
T2 Land, Burning-Tree Emissary (trigger Evolve), use R for Faithless Looting, discarding 1-2 Vengevine, use G to pay for one Hollow One (trigger Evolve), bring back 1-2 Vengevine (trigger one Evolve) => Experiment One is a 4/4, attacking along with 1-2 Vengevine, and we are left with 14 to 18 power on board for T3.
Out of the side, Driven // Despair has been doing some work to help refill our hand, plus no one expects all our threats to get Menace (via Despair).
I owned a revolt zoo. Sadly, it doesnt play well in this meta. By saw Julian play this deck. I had make a list, not RG but in naya shell. I am playing nacatl instead of experiment one. Path as a solution for the deck bad matchups such as eldrazi, titan, wurmcoil etc.
The problem with Experiment One is that outside of Turn 1-2, it is like drawing an empty sleeve. So I am tempted to replace them with Death's Shadow and add some B to the manabase. Zombie Infestation is another option, giving us access to free discard and free blockers at instant speed...
This is ridiculous I have never posted in this thread, before suggesting another thread. The original deck in the primer and the r/g vengevine list from SCG recently are completely different decks we can keep discussing it here but my guess is the orginal primer should be re written then.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Hollow One puts the deck in another spot and deserved another thread for it.
The difference in both decks are the following ones:
Vengevine Aggro is not a one-trick Pony. This deck has a lategame.
It has self-mill spells and is able to bust out crazy Haste 5/3's and so on.
The payoff-Spells are Hooting Mandrills (costs literally 1 Mana) and Vengevine (triggered by a lot of creatures.
It has the ability to "tutor" (not in a common sense) for Enchantments or Creatures.
Reckless Bushwhacker allows for explosive instant-win turns even if we are far behind.
Hollow One on the other side warps the deck this way, that a lot of discard-stuff is needed (Cathartic Reunion).
This leads to pretty ugly situations when players draw like a Reunion and just held 1 other Card.
I can't see how this deck is supposed to come back after it is on his backfoot once.
Gather the Pack mills, "tutors" and gives card advantage (if you are playing well) - Reunion can't do that.
It's a one-trick Pony, simple as that.
Im not gonna see how Hollow-Decks suppose to do the midrange-Game.
It's just too much stuff in the deck that does not line up well on it's own.
Reunion into an empty hand, Hollow One with no discard, Delve-Guys looking for a fueled graveyard (that can't be done by a single Cathartic), the enablers for Vengevine are mediocre on it's own (Swiftspear + Guide and Vengevine deals 7 damage, Burning-Tree into Bushwhacker triggering Vengevine deals 10 at all - you get the idea).
The only upside i watch out for are the pump-Spells, but again they need a fueled Grave (Become Immense) or 2 Mana (BAttle Rage).
Green @ it's best
I think you can fit in Hollow One into the Midrange gameplan very well!
There's Claim // Fame to cheat it in as well. With 14 cards that can usher it into the grave from either library or hand, I don't think his deck is left with a stranded Superion often. If one is in hand without a BTE partner, it just becomes the next-best-thing to pitch after Vengevines.
amic: a sideboard suggestion: Kari Zev's Expertise. Not a card you want against combo or go-wide aggro, but against midrange decks or decks that win with big fat, it can be huge to steal their fattest blocker T3 and be able to freecast a Superion or Flayer on the side.
The problem with Flamekin Harbinger is that it puts Vengevine on top of your library, not in your hand. Meaning you need to draw with Faithless Looting or some other effect to get it into your hand. I think it's too much work trying to setup Vengevine, and not enough of...well, doing anything.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
The deck is too homogenized towards just creature cards for yo to consistently hit Delirium (I tested it, it was terrible).
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros