He hasn't read the cards, trying to cast multiple Sram's, paying to equip with Paladin in play, etc. I found it too hard to watch, but if he's a good player he'll likely catch on quickly. I don't have time to watch the streamers bring him up to speed...
Edit: Maybe this is good thing. I logged in from my phone while exercising, 30minutes after posting the above, and watched punt after punt, playing fetch lands with no fetchables left and Retract in hand, etc. Then I heard him say the deck is inconsistent and not ban worthy. Getting that perception out there can't hurt. Lol!
Pro-tips; remember when you can win off Grapeshot/Retract with no engines, and remember you can and will win with straight beatdown.
This. Fought a sultai midrange deck that functioned as a more control deck. He discarded or removed all of my engines and moxes. However, he brought himself to 9 hp from unnecessary fetching. I had a hand of 4 equipment, 1 Swan Song, and 1 Retract. Topdecked a Grapeshot and won.
Have you made any sideboard adjustments? I noticed your mainboard was identical to the one I posted earlier. I've been testing out Ghirapur Aether Grid and have been liking it. My meta is creature-dump heavy (lots of goblins, fish, and elves) and I've been enjoying the ability to ping their creatures out. Casting Silence during upkeep might work just as well, though. I'll be doing some more testing with it later this week.
I haven't tried out Bastion Inventor yet, but I really liked my Geist against Grixis Delver. I'm pretty sure his only out was Engineered Explosives on 3, but I had way too much going on for him to handle. It's worth noting I have main deck Monastery Mentors and Mass Hysteria as a win condition, the Geists are just good against decks full of removal as a way to grind out a win, which is already something my deck is looking to be able to do. A more all in build might benefit more or less from the sideboard Geists, I don't know which.
Went 3-1 at a Thursday modern event with the deck.
Round 1 vs Tron (2-0):
Opponent died on turn 3 game one and turn 4 game two. Not much more to say here.
Round 2 vs Junk (1-2):
Mulled to 5 due to lack of engine, still didn't have it but it was better than a 4. Continued to draw blanks for quite a few turns, and just sat letting opponent think I was control with a bad hand. Opponent tapped out and I drew engine and took the game.
Didn't know what the typical board was here, so I just boarded awfully. Some terrible plays both games (waiting an extra turn to revival SV to try and dig for a Retract/equip as I had Sram and Paladin out) plus not knowing board (opponent played one spell a turn Eidolon during that extra turn I gave them and I hadn't boarded any answers in) led to the loss. Oh well, learning for next time.
Round 3 vs UWR control (2-1):
Mulled to 6, opponent was on the play and had answers, then ran away. Boarded in Silences, don't remember what I boarded out (SVs I think?). Played turn 3 Silence and comboed off game 2. Game 3 I started with a decent hand, and drew two more paladins, so I played out two fast, forcing opponent to have multiple removal spells or tap out for Verdict. The latter was done, and I played the remaining engine and comboed off.
Round 4 vs Merfolk (2-1):
Pretty uneventful, they don't have much interaction other than Cursecatcher (plus a little post-board, but that's pretty easy to play around. Fizzled game 2, hence the 2-1.
Overall pretty happy with the deck, especially given my sideboarding was awful and my sideboard was also just pretty awful (I didn't have all the board cards so I just threw 4-ofs of things that weren't really relevant). Some more reps and a proper board and I'll be very happy playing this in Vancouver.
Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Overall a good day for the deck. I'm at a 70% GWP going 21 for 30 so far. Average kill turn without concessions is 3.7. When removing concessions, I'm only counting considering it a concession if the opponent wasn't necessarily dead that turn and just got frustrated/tired/mad and left when there was a shot. Excluding concessions, the win distribution is:
All games are just in the tournament practice room right now. I made a few costly client errors by hitting the wrong keyboard button, so until I'm 100% comfortable on those MTGO quirks I'm staying with practice room matches.
I'm winning most games by comboing out with a few to Grapeshot/Retract chains and very few to Paladin beatdown. All-stars include Path to Exile (SB), Silence (SB), Swan Song (MD), Echoing Truth (SB), and various Grapeshot shenanigans. I have no idea if I'm boarding either my Bastion Inventors or my Grids properly, but they haven't done anything so far.
Pro tip to anyone playing against this deck: don't board in Leyline. It's very, very bad against us. Pro tip to anyone playing this deck: I almost always board in one Echoing Truth to deal with the "random nonsense" factor. I strongly recommend it on MTGO as it gives you outs against even really weird stuff.
Have you made any sideboard adjustments? I noticed your mainboard was identical to the one I posted earlier. I've been testing out Ghirapur Aether Grid and have been liking it. My meta is creature-dump heavy (lots of goblins, fish, and elves) and I've been enjoying the ability to ping their creatures out. Casting Silence during upkeep might work just as well, though. I'll be doing some more testing with it later this week.
I'm on 3 Path, 4 Silence, 3 Truth, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Inventor, 2 Grid. I have yet to see the Grids/Inventors in games where they mattered so I have no idea if they are good. I think 4 Silence is too many and might go -1 Silence, +1 Swan Song so I have the option of using 3 of those if needed.
I ended up not using Mentor because, although a great threat, he's too vulnerable to all the same removal that kills the engines. Inventor and Grid at least attack on different axes: Inventor by dodging all spot removal, Grid by being an enchantment. In that regard, Geist seems like it would be better than Mentor because it also doesn't fall prey to the same stuff the engines do.
Curious, since it came up today and I wasn't sure which way to go due to not having enough reps with the deck. Let's say you have three Cheeri0s, and you're on the play turn two. You also have Sram and a Paladin, as well as an Opal and a UW untapped land. Do you:
A. Play Sram, play all the Cheerios, and hope you hit a Retract to try and combo
B. Play Sram, play Cheeri0s until you either hit a Retract and combo or until you only have one Cheeri0 left in hand, and then hold that one for the potential two-engine next turn (or just Paladin + Cheeri0 if they kill Sram)
C. Play Paladin and do A, equipping if you whiff.
D. Play Paladin and do B, equipping if you whiff.
E. Play Paladin and pass, so that if they kill it you still have the potential of option A on turn 3, plus you have an extra card (and if they don't kill it then it's likely game over with two engines and three Cheeri0s)
F. Play Sram and do E.
(A-B hedges on the removal spell, C-D doesn't but gets the equips if you whiff. Personally I'm doing A-B over C-D always because of the guaranteed card but maybe other people feel differently).
Obviously there's a lot depending on what you think your opponent is on (if they're on a linear creature deck like Merfolk then you can jam E-F without fear and roll them, but if you think they're packing removal then maybe it makes sense to wait), and that mostly affects the decision between doing one of A-D and E-F. The difference between A-D is something I'm much more interested in (and more generally, figuring out when it's right to keep an insurance Cheeri0 vs. go for it with your last one). What are people's thoughts here (either matchup-specific or in general)?
Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
F. Play Sram and Pass. If you can choose what engine do you expose to removal: Choose Sram first
While I agree that sram is the one that leads matches where you have both, instead of passing, wouldn't you play one equip instead? If they have the removal they have to use it on the first cast trigger otherwise it can spiral out of control real fast. Worst case scenario he replaces himself.
Yeah, it really depends on the matchup, what they've got going on, and what your build looks like. If you know there is 0 chance of them killing you or playing a hate piece, I would drop Sram and pass. If you're worried about them getting in for a ton of damage or worried they will have removal and countermagic on their turn, but they're tapped out right now, then play something and try to go off. If they're UR control, so the only removal to worry about is bolt, play Paladin, play some amount of equipment and make sure Paladin has at least 5 toughness, 6 if possible. If they aren't playing red, lead with Sram. If you see a Retract while playing out the first 3 equipment (for metalcraft) just keep going until it either looks like you're gonna win for sure or you run out or almost run out of gas. Only cast the Retract if you think you can win or have more than one. In general, waiting until you have two engines in play is better if you can get away with it.
Curious, since it came up today and I wasn't sure which way to go due to not having enough reps with the deck. Let's say you have three Cheeri0s, and you're on the play turn two. You also have Sram and a Paladin, as well as an Opal and a UW untapped land. Do you:
If I'm understanding this correctly, here's the hand and the board-state:
First question: I'm obviously using specific examples for your general ones, but is that correct?
(If so, everyone here needs to remember that you can't actually cast either Sram or Paladin without playing 2 of your 3 equipment already. That leaves one blind draw off equipment #3 before you fizzle the turn out.)
Second question: did you mulligan T1? It looks like you've only seen 7 cards despite it being T2 on the play. This matters because it means you have 1 more card in your deck and it affects probabilities.
Final question: what did your opponent do on T1? If it was just a fetchland, what was the fetch?
@ktk, the scenario has a second Coast in hand as well, so there's no mana decisions, just which engine to play and how many (if any) Cheeri0s to play. I was purposefully leaving out the opponent's T1 play to see how much it affects the choice.
Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
That last minute Alley Evasion addition looking real silly. I expect many more lists to pop up over the next few days with this mess being all over MTGO.
So, can we talk about Sigil of Distinction for a bit? I've personally never played with the card, so I'm curious what other people's thoughts are on it. Is it better than Kite Shield? What about Bone Saw or Spidersilk Net? How do we decide what's better? Let's look at the pros and cons of each; remember, we generally don't care what most of these do if we're able to combo, they only matter if we aren't winning the turn we play them.
Paradise Mantle
Pros:
Lets your guys tap for mana
Only costs 1 to equip
Cons:
No power or toughness boosting
Boosts power and toughness, if you pay mana for it
Doesn't cost mana to equip
Cons:
Does literal nothing if you didn't pay mana for it
Gets worse if you use its natural equipd cost
I think that covers it all, but let me know if I missed anything. The next question is deciding how to value those qualities. Note that this is for combo centric builds, we're not taking Goblin Gaveleer or Glint Hawk into account here, though I will consider Geist of Saint Traft, Monastery Mentor, and Bastion Inventor here.
Sigil of Distinction doesn't make my list because I've never played with it, but if I had to place it, I would probably stick it in just above Bone Saw.
Curious about the possibility of Heart of Ghirapur over silence. Heart is a bit more proactive since your mana usage is split over two turns. Cast heart, pass, on the next turn, if it lives, you attack, sac it, and the rest of the turn is disruption-free. I know it has less utility vs some decks that are also trying to combo you out, but it does seem better as a goldfish. If the deck is actually popular, then silence for the mirror is likely where you want to be.
Was very happy with Silence againt control, feels much better than Hope would be (especially given it's both vulnerable to removal and actually has to connect). Plus Silence seems great in the mirror.
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Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
@ktk, the scenario has a second Coast in hand as well, so there's no mana decisions, just which engine to play and how many (if any) Cheeri0s to play. I was purposefully leaving out the opponent's T1 play to see how much it affects the choice.
Got it. The other scenario with just one land is also interesting and definitely comes up when I play.
For this two land scenario, I'm generally going to lead on Sram and play 1 equipment. If the opponent kills Sram, I replace him and get to try again with Paladin next turn (or wait for Silence/Song). If the opponent doesn't kill Sram, I'm drawing a card and setting myself up for a virtually guaranteed T3 win. If I draw another equipment off the first draw, I play it. I repeat this until I either hit Retract or have a hand with 2 equipment in it; in this case, I'm not dropping below 2 equipment without a Retract. At that point, we just chill until T2. There are basically no top-tier Modern decks that can beat two engines on the draw when they didn't have a T1 proactive play. As for the Retract line, if I have Opal, Retract, and at least 6 equipment, I'm just going for the T2 win.
This totally changes if I don't have that second engine. In that case, I'm probably playing every piece of equipment ASAP to either dig for a Retract or dig for engine #2. The number of removal options increases dramatically at 2 mana instead of 1: you add Terminate, Decay, Helix, and Brutality. You also give them one more turn to topdeck a one-mana removal, and a turn to draw a cantrip into a removal spell, all with the benefit of a fetch thinning one extra card. Bad odds for our engine! This is why I generally dig furiously in one engine hands. Of course, modify this as-needed if you also have a protection spell in hand.
As for lands, I'm going to assume that most fetches represent removal, but I'm not going to play scared because I have two engines. Even with one engine, their removal isn't going away later and the window for an opponent to make a mistake starts closing around T4, when they have more than enough mana to play a threat and hold up 2+ removal.
So, can we talk about Sigil of Distinction for a bit? I've personally never played with the card, so I'm curious what other people's thoughts are on it. Is it better than Kite Shield? What about Bone Saw or Spidersilk Net? How do we decide what's better? Let's look at the pros and cons of each; remember, we generally don't care what most of these do if we're able to combo, they only matter if we aren't winning the turn we play them.
...
What do you guys think?
I'm on 4 Mantle (helps with mana issues), 4 Net (reach is a key Plan B or C against Delver/Affinity/Infect), 4 Cathar's/Accorder's Shield (vigiliance lets you aggro more effectively and 3 toughness rocks), and 4 Bone Saw (+1 power helps the aggro clock). I used to have 3 Saw/1 Sigil but I almost never cast Sigil for mana, despite wanting a little extra power on the board. As an example, two Shielded/Netted engines can't double-block and kill Tasigur, Goyf, Reality Smasher, etc. Bone Saw makes that a lethal block, in addition to reducing the deck's aggro clock or Grapeshot thresholds when you can't combo.
Re: Kite Shield
Since picking this deck up again after Sram got spoiled, I've had maybe 2-3 games where I wanted Saw to be Kite Shield so it could save something from removal or allow it to make a better block. But I've had dozens of games where I played a Saw and was really happy it was adding power to the board instead of more useless toughness. This is doubly true with Push improving Esper decks, which don't play damage-based removal.
Curious about the possibility of Heart of Ghirapur over silence. Heart is a bit more proactive since your mana usage is split over two turns. Cast heart, pass, on the next turn, if it lives, you attack, sac it, and the rest of the turn is disruption-free. I know it has less utility vs some decks that are also trying to combo you out, but it does seem better as a goldfish. If the deck is actually popular, then silence for the mirror is likely where you want to be.
Hope of Ghirapur seems a little better on the defensive and a lot worse on the offensive. Defensively, you can go T1 Hope, T2 Engine and win. Silence doesn't allow that to happen. You can also T2 Hope with mana up and T3 engine ALSO with mana up. Then again, a topdecked Hope won't allow you to combo out for at least another turn. Of course, the card is bad offensively. It doesn't buy time against Infect, Ad Nauseam, the mirror, and other matchups. I'm sticking to Silence for now.
@ktkenshinx - Have you done a primer on Sigil before? I don't feel like I'm getting the most mileage out of that card, nor do understand when to hold it instead of trying to off. If you've covered that before we could just link to it. Thanks!
Let's say you're up against Ad Nauseum and drop a Palladin turn 2 and start flooding and attacking, then you try to go off and hit some Opals but no Retract. You might be able to cast a big Sigil on T4 and kill them before they go off. Or we can just generally speed up the beatdown in other scenarios where we're on plan B.
@ktkenshinx - Have you done a primer on Sigil before? I don't feel like I'm getting the most mileage out of that card, nor do understand when to hold it instead of trying to off. If you've covered that before we could just link to it. Thanks!
Sigil seems best if you've got the mana to cast it for at least 1 and the paladin to equip for free, other than that im not sure why its good, though it could be better than bone saw.
In theory, Sigil has some extra strengths over Bone Saw. In the corner case where you are comboing out on, say, T3 and you don't hit a Retract but do have something such as Opal and a land open, you can Sigil for X=2 to get a fine +2/+2 bonus. Or if you have Mantle out on an engine, go nuts at +3/+3. This underscores the importance of saving Sigil until your last equipment, in case you decide to invest mana in it after a fizzle. Of course, this works much better if it's Paladin in play so you aren't wasting a mana and a potential P/T point.
Sigil can also be nice in G2-G3 if you're playing stuff like Bastion Inventor (which I still am). Going T3 Inventor into T4 Sigil for X=4 leaves you with a monstrous 7/7 critter (assuming you have to -1 counter for equipping) and a theoretical 3 turn clock.
Personally, I'm over Sigil and back to 4 Bone Saw. I'm not finding toughness to be a problem in G1 or G2-G3. That said, I've encountered a handful of scenarios where X=0 Sigil prevented me from threatening an attacker with lethal. I've only dropped a big Sigil in two games, and one game was pretty lost anyway, while the other was in the bag. Please let me know if anyone think that lone Sigil is still worth the slot.
State update on the deck: I'm at 50-some matches with a 74% GWP (71% removing concessions), averaging a turn 3.8 win across all games. T2-T3 wins happen in 44% of my wins and 33% of my total games. Thinking about that win-turn spread, here's the win-turn distribution as a function of just wins:
Overall I'm feeling very good about the deck and have enjoyed a lot of exciting matches. Interactive opponents are definitely more challenging, with some Grixis and Jund matchups going down as 1-2 or 2-1 slugfests. Faster decks are easier, particularly in G2-G3 when even just a little interaction stops them dead for a turn and gives us a little extra room for a guaranteed T3. Deck-wise, I'm still on 14 lands, 1 NR, 2 GS, 1 Sleight, and loving the 2 maindeck Swan Songs. I have no intention of changing any of that any time soon.
For the SB, I've had mostly positive results with Bastion Inventor so far. He was great against Grixis and Jeskai decks, where he dodges all their removal plus Spell Snare. He was way worse against Jund and Abzan due to Liliana. I definitely played BGx games where Enraged Giant would have won me the game but Inventor lost it to an opposing Lily. I think this is a straight meta call that comes down to how many Liliana, Terminate, and Path are being played. Inventor is weak to Lily but immune to Terminate/Path. Giant is the opposite, with some other upsides in certain matchups. I'll need to keep testing to figure out which is better or if they are worth it at all.
Final note for now: keep practicing! I made a disastrous, game-losing error against a Jund opponent earlier tonight. I had a fetch and a Fountain in hand with two more Fountains in play. I tapped both Fountains to cast a Paladin on top of my existing Sram. I then just needed to cast Retract for a 4+ card bonanza. To maximize my margins, I played the fetchland and cracked it for the Fountain in my deck. Big problem: I only had three fountains and that third Fountain was in my hand, not my deck. Because of this, I had to fetch for a tapped Foundry, pass without Retracting, and then I lost the Paladin when the Jund player untapped. Retract wasn't enough to find more gas, engine #2 died soon thereafter, and the game spiraled from there. If I had just played the fetch and fetched Foundry/Plains before casting the engine, I would have had Retract mana, benefited from the one card deck thin, and then drawn into lots of gas. Or just played Fountain from hand and not worried about fetching at all before going crazy.
Moral of the story: remember your land counts when fetching and figure out those fetching lines before doing anything else. Also, keep practicing.
This might sound an odd question, but how does everyone keep track of their storm count?
I realise that you need some way of demonstrating to the opponent how many spells you've played. But, I think plonking a dice out seems pretty obvious as to what our game plan is..... I kind of want it to be a surprise.
Also, pro tip: when comboing and using two mox opals to play grapeshot, it is always wise to tap these for 2 red, then play a third mox (if you can). This means that you have it open to play swan song if your grapeshot gets countered. Unlike what I did in my last game!!! Foolish mistake.
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
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Edit: Maybe this is good thing. I logged in from my phone while exercising, 30minutes after posting the above, and watched punt after punt, playing fetch lands with no fetchables left and Retract in hand, etc. Then I heard him say the deck is inconsistent and not ban worthy. Getting that perception out there can't hurt. Lol!
This. Fought a sultai midrange deck that functioned as a more control deck. He discarded or removed all of my engines and moxes. However, he brought himself to 9 hp from unnecessary fetching. I had a hand of 4 equipment, 1 Swan Song, and 1 Retract. Topdecked a Grapeshot and won.
Have you made any sideboard adjustments? I noticed your mainboard was identical to the one I posted earlier. I've been testing out Ghirapur Aether Grid and have been liking it. My meta is creature-dump heavy (lots of goblins, fish, and elves) and I've been enjoying the ability to ping their creatures out. Casting Silence during upkeep might work just as well, though. I'll be doing some more testing with it later this week.
edit: How are people feeling about Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard? Is he better or worse than Monastery Mentor + Mass Hysteria, Goblin Gaveleer, or Bastion Inventor?
WRGBurnGRW
RBGJund Shadowvine[/mana]gbr[/mana]
RGTooth & NailGR
Standard:
BGBG Energy ConstrictorGB
I haven't tried out Bastion Inventor yet, but I really liked my Geist against Grixis Delver. I'm pretty sure his only out was Engineered Explosives on 3, but I had way too much going on for him to handle. It's worth noting I have main deck Monastery Mentors and Mass Hysteria as a win condition, the Geists are just good against decks full of removal as a way to grind out a win, which is already something my deck is looking to be able to do. A more all in build might benefit more or less from the sideboard Geists, I don't know which.
Round 1 vs Tron (2-0):
Opponent died on turn 3 game one and turn 4 game two. Not much more to say here.
Round 2 vs Junk (1-2):
Mulled to 5 due to lack of engine, still didn't have it but it was better than a 4. Continued to draw blanks for quite a few turns, and just sat letting opponent think I was control with a bad hand. Opponent tapped out and I drew engine and took the game.
Didn't know what the typical board was here, so I just boarded awfully. Some terrible plays both games (waiting an extra turn to revival SV to try and dig for a Retract/equip as I had Sram and Paladin out) plus not knowing board (opponent played one spell a turn Eidolon during that extra turn I gave them and I hadn't boarded any answers in) led to the loss. Oh well, learning for next time.
Round 3 vs UWR control (2-1):
Mulled to 6, opponent was on the play and had answers, then ran away. Boarded in Silences, don't remember what I boarded out (SVs I think?). Played turn 3 Silence and comboed off game 2. Game 3 I started with a decent hand, and drew two more paladins, so I played out two fast, forcing opponent to have multiple removal spells or tap out for Verdict. The latter was done, and I played the remaining engine and comboed off.
Round 4 vs Merfolk (2-1):
Pretty uneventful, they don't have much interaction other than Cursecatcher (plus a little post-board, but that's pretty easy to play around. Fizzled game 2, hence the 2-1.
Overall pretty happy with the deck, especially given my sideboarding was awful and my sideboard was also just pretty awful (I didn't have all the board cards so I just threw 4-ofs of things that weren't really relevant). Some more reps and a proper board and I'll be very happy playing this in Vancouver.
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Turn 2: 22%
Turn 3: 17%
Turn 4: 39%
Turn 5: 11%
Turn 6+: 11%
All games are just in the tournament practice room right now. I made a few costly client errors by hitting the wrong keyboard button, so until I'm 100% comfortable on those MTGO quirks I'm staying with practice room matches.
I'm winning most games by comboing out with a few to Grapeshot/Retract chains and very few to Paladin beatdown. All-stars include Path to Exile (SB), Silence (SB), Swan Song (MD), Echoing Truth (SB), and various Grapeshot shenanigans. I have no idea if I'm boarding either my Bastion Inventors or my Grids properly, but they haven't done anything so far.
Pro tip to anyone playing against this deck: don't board in Leyline. It's very, very bad against us. Pro tip to anyone playing this deck: I almost always board in one Echoing Truth to deal with the "random nonsense" factor. I strongly recommend it on MTGO as it gives you outs against even really weird stuff.
I'm on 3 Path, 4 Silence, 3 Truth, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Inventor, 2 Grid. I have yet to see the Grids/Inventors in games where they mattered so I have no idea if they are good. I think 4 Silence is too many and might go -1 Silence, +1 Swan Song so I have the option of using 3 of those if needed.
I ended up not using Mentor because, although a great threat, he's too vulnerable to all the same removal that kills the engines. Inventor and Grid at least attack on different axes: Inventor by dodging all spot removal, Grid by being an enchantment. In that regard, Geist seems like it would be better than Mentor because it also doesn't fall prey to the same stuff the engines do.
A. Play Sram, play all the Cheerios, and hope you hit a Retract to try and combo
B. Play Sram, play Cheeri0s until you either hit a Retract and combo or until you only have one Cheeri0 left in hand, and then hold that one for the potential two-engine next turn (or just Paladin + Cheeri0 if they kill Sram)
C. Play Paladin and do A, equipping if you whiff.
D. Play Paladin and do B, equipping if you whiff.
E. Play Paladin and pass, so that if they kill it you still have the potential of option A on turn 3, plus you have an extra card (and if they don't kill it then it's likely game over with two engines and three Cheeri0s)
F. Play Sram and do E.
(A-B hedges on the removal spell, C-D doesn't but gets the equips if you whiff. Personally I'm doing A-B over C-D always because of the guaranteed card but maybe other people feel differently).
Obviously there's a lot depending on what you think your opponent is on (if they're on a linear creature deck like Merfolk then you can jam E-F without fear and roll them, but if you think they're packing removal then maybe it makes sense to wait), and that mostly affects the decision between doing one of A-D and E-F. The difference between A-D is something I'm much more interested in (and more generally, figuring out when it's right to keep an insurance Cheeri0 vs. go for it with your last one). What are people's thoughts here (either matchup-specific or in general)?
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
While I agree that sram is the one that leads matches where you have both, instead of passing, wouldn't you play one equip instead? If they have the removal they have to use it on the first cast trigger otherwise it can spiral out of control real fast. Worst case scenario he replaces himself.
If I'm understanding this correctly, here's the hand and the board-state:
In play:
Seachrome Coast
In hand:
Puresteel Paladin
Sram, Senior Edificer
Cathar's Shield
Paradise Mantle
Spidersilk Net
Mox Opal
First question: I'm obviously using specific examples for your general ones, but is that correct?
(If so, everyone here needs to remember that you can't actually cast either Sram or Paladin without playing 2 of your 3 equipment already. That leaves one blind draw off equipment #3 before you fizzle the turn out.)
Second question: did you mulligan T1? It looks like you've only seen 7 cards despite it being T2 on the play. This matters because it means you have 1 more card in your deck and it affects probabilities.
Final question: what did your opponent do on T1? If it was just a fetchland, what was the fetch?
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Paradise Mantle
Pros:
Lets your guys tap for mana
Only costs 1 to equip
Cons:
No power or toughness boosting
Accorder's Shield and Cathar's Shield
Pros:
Kite Shield
Pros:
Spidersilk Net
Pros:
Bone Saw
Pros:
Sigil of Distinction
Pros:
I think that covers it all, but let me know if I missed anything. The next question is deciding how to value those qualities. Note that this is for combo centric builds, we're not taking Goblin Gaveleer or Glint Hawk into account here, though I will consider Geist of Saint Traft, Monastery Mentor, and Bastion Inventor here.
My personal rating is as follows:
Sigil of Distinction doesn't make my list because I've never played with it, but if I had to place it, I would probably stick it in just above Bone Saw.
What do you guys think?
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Got it. The other scenario with just one land is also interesting and definitely comes up when I play.
For this two land scenario, I'm generally going to lead on Sram and play 1 equipment. If the opponent kills Sram, I replace him and get to try again with Paladin next turn (or wait for Silence/Song). If the opponent doesn't kill Sram, I'm drawing a card and setting myself up for a virtually guaranteed T3 win. If I draw another equipment off the first draw, I play it. I repeat this until I either hit Retract or have a hand with 2 equipment in it; in this case, I'm not dropping below 2 equipment without a Retract. At that point, we just chill until T2. There are basically no top-tier Modern decks that can beat two engines on the draw when they didn't have a T1 proactive play. As for the Retract line, if I have Opal, Retract, and at least 6 equipment, I'm just going for the T2 win.
This totally changes if I don't have that second engine. In that case, I'm probably playing every piece of equipment ASAP to either dig for a Retract or dig for engine #2. The number of removal options increases dramatically at 2 mana instead of 1: you add Terminate, Decay, Helix, and Brutality. You also give them one more turn to topdeck a one-mana removal, and a turn to draw a cantrip into a removal spell, all with the benefit of a fetch thinning one extra card. Bad odds for our engine! This is why I generally dig furiously in one engine hands. Of course, modify this as-needed if you also have a protection spell in hand.
As for lands, I'm going to assume that most fetches represent removal, but I'm not going to play scared because I have two engines. Even with one engine, their removal isn't going away later and the window for an opponent to make a mistake starts closing around T4, when they have more than enough mana to play a threat and hold up 2+ removal.
I'm on 4 Mantle (helps with mana issues), 4 Net (reach is a key Plan B or C against Delver/Affinity/Infect), 4 Cathar's/Accorder's Shield (vigiliance lets you aggro more effectively and 3 toughness rocks), and 4 Bone Saw (+1 power helps the aggro clock). I used to have 3 Saw/1 Sigil but I almost never cast Sigil for mana, despite wanting a little extra power on the board. As an example, two Shielded/Netted engines can't double-block and kill Tasigur, Goyf, Reality Smasher, etc. Bone Saw makes that a lethal block, in addition to reducing the deck's aggro clock or Grapeshot thresholds when you can't combo.
Re: Kite Shield
Since picking this deck up again after Sram got spoiled, I've had maybe 2-3 games where I wanted Saw to be Kite Shield so it could save something from removal or allow it to make a better block. But I've had dozens of games where I played a Saw and was really happy it was adding power to the board instead of more useless toughness. This is doubly true with Push improving Esper decks, which don't play damage-based removal.
Hope of Ghirapur seems a little better on the defensive and a lot worse on the offensive. Defensively, you can go T1 Hope, T2 Engine and win. Silence doesn't allow that to happen. You can also T2 Hope with mana up and T3 engine ALSO with mana up. Then again, a topdecked Hope won't allow you to combo out for at least another turn. Of course, the card is bad offensively. It doesn't buy time against Infect, Ad Nauseam, the mirror, and other matchups. I'm sticking to Silence for now.
In theory, Sigil has some extra strengths over Bone Saw. In the corner case where you are comboing out on, say, T3 and you don't hit a Retract but do have something such as Opal and a land open, you can Sigil for X=2 to get a fine +2/+2 bonus. Or if you have Mantle out on an engine, go nuts at +3/+3. This underscores the importance of saving Sigil until your last equipment, in case you decide to invest mana in it after a fizzle. Of course, this works much better if it's Paladin in play so you aren't wasting a mana and a potential P/T point.
Sigil can also be nice in G2-G3 if you're playing stuff like Bastion Inventor (which I still am). Going T3 Inventor into T4 Sigil for X=4 leaves you with a monstrous 7/7 critter (assuming you have to -1 counter for equipping) and a theoretical 3 turn clock.
Personally, I'm over Sigil and back to 4 Bone Saw. I'm not finding toughness to be a problem in G1 or G2-G3. That said, I've encountered a handful of scenarios where X=0 Sigil prevented me from threatening an attacker with lethal. I've only dropped a big Sigil in two games, and one game was pretty lost anyway, while the other was in the bag. Please let me know if anyone think that lone Sigil is still worth the slot.
State update on the deck: I'm at 50-some matches with a 74% GWP (71% removing concessions), averaging a turn 3.8 win across all games. T2-T3 wins happen in 44% of my wins and 33% of my total games. Thinking about that win-turn spread, here's the win-turn distribution as a function of just wins:
Turn 1: 0%
Turn 2: 17.6%
Turn 3: 26.5%
Turn 4: 32.4%
Turn 5: 11.8%
Turn 6: 5.9%
Turn 7: 2.9%
Turn 8: 2.9%
And here it is as a function of total games played:
Turn 1: 0%
Turn 2: 13%
Turn 3: 19.6%
Turn 4: 23.9%
Turn 5: 8.7%
Turn 6: 4.3%
Turn 7: 2.2%
Turn 8: 2.2%
Overall I'm feeling very good about the deck and have enjoyed a lot of exciting matches. Interactive opponents are definitely more challenging, with some Grixis and Jund matchups going down as 1-2 or 2-1 slugfests. Faster decks are easier, particularly in G2-G3 when even just a little interaction stops them dead for a turn and gives us a little extra room for a guaranteed T3. Deck-wise, I'm still on 14 lands, 1 NR, 2 GS, 1 Sleight, and loving the 2 maindeck Swan Songs. I have no intention of changing any of that any time soon.
For the SB, I've had mostly positive results with Bastion Inventor so far. He was great against Grixis and Jeskai decks, where he dodges all their removal plus Spell Snare. He was way worse against Jund and Abzan due to Liliana. I definitely played BGx games where Enraged Giant would have won me the game but Inventor lost it to an opposing Lily. I think this is a straight meta call that comes down to how many Liliana, Terminate, and Path are being played. Inventor is weak to Lily but immune to Terminate/Path. Giant is the opposite, with some other upsides in certain matchups. I'll need to keep testing to figure out which is better or if they are worth it at all.
Final note for now: keep practicing! I made a disastrous, game-losing error against a Jund opponent earlier tonight. I had a fetch and a Fountain in hand with two more Fountains in play. I tapped both Fountains to cast a Paladin on top of my existing Sram. I then just needed to cast Retract for a 4+ card bonanza. To maximize my margins, I played the fetchland and cracked it for the Fountain in my deck. Big problem: I only had three fountains and that third Fountain was in my hand, not my deck. Because of this, I had to fetch for a tapped Foundry, pass without Retracting, and then I lost the Paladin when the Jund player untapped. Retract wasn't enough to find more gas, engine #2 died soon thereafter, and the game spiraled from there. If I had just played the fetch and fetched Foundry/Plains before casting the engine, I would have had Retract mana, benefited from the one card deck thin, and then drawn into lots of gas. Or just played Fountain from hand and not worried about fetching at all before going crazy.
Moral of the story: remember your land counts when fetching and figure out those fetching lines before doing anything else. Also, keep practicing.
I realise that you need some way of demonstrating to the opponent how many spells you've played. But, I think plonking a dice out seems pretty obvious as to what our game plan is..... I kind of want it to be a surprise.
Also, pro tip: when comboing and using two mox opals to play grapeshot, it is always wise to tap these for 2 red, then play a third mox (if you can). This means that you have it open to play swan song if your grapeshot gets countered. Unlike what I did in my last game!!! Foolish mistake.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU