You name whichever you have. I'm on the fence about it, though. I was 100% sure that 4 maindeck was correct but I'm starting to doubt. It depends on how much blue we start seeing in the meta, I think more people will turn to removal to stop The Beast as it's more reliable.
Also, be aware that Mindbreak Trap and Dispel will hit your Retracts. Against blue decks, be ready to have that fight mid-combo.
Sorry, just to be clear, are you suggesting that the Cavern somehow helps with Dispel/Trap against your Retracts? I'm not understanding what you're suggesting in order to have "that fight."
What
If you run Caverns, you name whichever creature you have. If you have both, you name Human.
Blue decks will try to brick your combo turn by countering Retract. Against them, you have to be ready to play around that, either with Silence/Swan Song, baiting counters, or trying to maneuver similar to the way you land Paladin against removal.
I have no idea how my post was confusing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
You name whichever you have. I'm on the fence about it, though. I was 100% sure that 4 maindeck was correct but I'm starting to doubt. It depends on how much blue we start seeing in the meta, I think more people will turn to removal to stop The Beast as it's more reliable.
Also, be aware that Mindbreak Trap and Dispel will hit your Retracts. Against blue decks, be ready to have that fight mid-combo.
Sorry, just to be clear, are you suggesting that the Cavern somehow helps with Dispel/Trap against your Retracts? I'm not understanding what you're suggesting in order to have "that fight."
What
If you run Caverns, you name whichever creature you have. If you have both, you name Human.
Blue decks will try to brick your combo turn by countering Retract. Against them, you have to be ready to play around that, either with Silence/Swan Song, baiting counters, or trying to maneuver similar to the way you land Paladin against removal.
I have no idea how my post was confusing.
I was confused because we were talking about Cavern but then you started talking about Mindbreak Trap and Dispel against Retract in a way that seemed like it was either a bit of a non sequitur or confusion about Cavern. Sounds like it was just a deviation from the original subject that I processed incorrectly. Sorry.
Been running through the deck more and playing with the mix. I haven't had a chance to run it against any opponents yet, but the more I goldfish it I feel like 1x Paradoxical in the main is right. It's a pretty fantastic plan B in my opinion and can help pull out of the occasional game 1 fizzle. I'm actually running 2 in the main (cut an SV and a Kite Shield for them) and being able to draw 8-10 cards at times to pull out of a fizzle is great. I'm surprised how easily the deck can hit 4 mana as well.
I gold-fished hundreds of games with proxy of Sram and had the same impression, and I've been playing Cheeri0s since late 2015. I predict that once you bring this to tournaments you will be shocked at the number of times you have to keep a one lander on a mulligan and pray for help, i.e. land, SV, Opal. You'll want to hold the Opal and equipment if you have it but at a certain point the game starts to get away from you and desperation sets in. If I had a dollar for every time I mulled to 5 and kept a hand with an engine and one land and was dead before I got any further I would be rich. If you don't have the temperament to smile and move on when that happens then this isn't the deck for you. I'm not making any assumptions about you, but rather just trying to be helpful. I won two matches last night where exactly that happened game 1.
You need Noxious to generate infinite mana, as your Opals will all be tied up in the loop (1 for Retracts, 3 for Elixir). You can get infinite life without it, though (as well as one infinitely large Grapeshot). If you're only casting one Grapeshot, this isn't relevant since you can just use the Elixir Opals at the end for Grapeshot mana, but if you need to cast multiple Grapeshots (in the case of Abzan when they have the combo on board) then you either need sufficient extra mana from lands/Mantles or you need the Noxious to make you a 5th Opal in the loop, generating infinite mana.
As long as you're giving a master class here, if we're able to draw through our entire deck with one engine in play, what are the conditions under which we could still pull of the loop? Can it be done?
One engine is certainly trickier, since as is the case with the normal win drawing your whole deck with just one engine isn't all that likely, but so long as the following are true I believe you should be able to loop regardless of how many cards are left in your deck:
1. You have 4 mana available (including Opals) to cast/activate Elixir and play Retract
2. You have at least as many Cheerios in your hand + on the battlefield as you do cards in your deck + graveyard.
3. You still have a Retract in hand (or Noxious giving you one).
At that point, you can play Retract, play Elixir, activate Elixir, play enough Cheerios to draw the deck, play Opals for mana (Noxiousing one back and playing it again to generate a net mana in the loop), and repeat. After the first repetition, the board state should be the same as the end of the first cycle (only Opals + NR + Retract in yard, no cards in deck, Elixir in play, storm count increases and you've generated a mana) and you can thus show it's a loop to shortcut (and since we're drawing the whole deck every time and not dependent on its order the randomness of shuffling shouldn't be an issue in demonstrating the loop like it is for Four Horsemen).
If instead of a Retract, you have an Elixir, you can try to go for it and hope to draw a Retract after the shuffle with your remaining Cheerios in hand, but there's definitely the fizzle possibility there.
Thanks for that. Last night in 5 rounds I drew through my entire deck with 1 one engine 3 times, once on turn 2 and once on turn 3 and once much later in the game after I waited to have 2 threats and the first one bit the dust.
RE: mulligans
Generally, people should not be shipping hands that have 1 land and 1 engine. Or even 1 Opal and 1 engine, especially if you can activate the Opal and have an SV/Retract/4th equipment. By a similar token, no one should be complaining about variance and bad luck when you play this deck and mull to oblivion. Like falsehate said, if you're going to be unhappy about that, this isn't the deck for you. I will say that the "mull to oblivion" line is itself a very skill and stats intensive line. Against fast decks, you definitely want to mull to 5 for the good hand. But against slower decks, it is not always wrong to keep some 6 card hands that don't have engines but do have SV and other cards. Indeed, against discard decks, it's sometimes good to not have that engine on the play. These are important considerations we all need to be making when mulling.
RE: Paradoxical Outcome
I've had some mixed experiences with Outcome. I didn't like it maindeck; too many fast decks on MTGO so it's often win-more or dead. I loved it against BGx though. It's one of the few cards you are happy to topdeck against Lily, and it doesn't fall to IoK. I'm debating on whether or not I want it in addition to or in place of Leyline in the board. They do different things but both cards are very strong against BGx.
1) Live topdeck
2) Good in multiples
3) Actively combos (Leyline passively defends)
4) Sideboarding does not introduce bricks (useful mid-combo)
Cons OVER Leyline:
1) Costs 4 mana
2) Leaves us defenseless against other decks we would bring Leyline in
Pros WITH Leyline:
1) Sideboarding gives even more resilience against interaction without diluting more than simply adding Leyline would
2) Mulligans are stronger, no need to kill ourselves looking for the free Leyline
3) Can be a strong sideboard option when Leyline isn't amd vice versa
Cons WITH Leyline:
1) oh god where did my sideboard slots go please help me find them
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Good feedback, just be aware that you can't evaluate the matchup based on pre-sideboard only. Also, if want to get good at this deck, assume that by round 3 everyone knows what you are playing and have him mull to removal. Then you'll face real difficulties. Having said, this deck is still good enough get it done!!
Also tell your friend the days of 1 Grapeshot list are past according to me. ;-)
Re: Abzan
It's a bad matchup, especially in G1. I wouldn't put too much effort into testing it though. It only makes up 1/3 of your games against Abzan and there aren't too many specialized decisions to make that are specific to Abzan. G2 and G3 are much more important between SB cards on both sides of the tables, mulligans, and both opponents knowing exactly what the other is playing.
Re: 2 Grapeshot
I love my double Grapeshot on MTGO. The Comp League meta has this odd mix of 1-2 super interactive decks every League and 1-2 super fast decks. Here, NR is too slow and life inefficient. GS is a sweeper and spot removal that more efficiently lets you switch between roles.
Also tell your friend the days of 1 Grapeshot list are past according to me. ;-)
does everyone think the same?
im interested. grapeshot is a dead card, you just need it when you want to close.
if they discard grape, you still have 2 instant card to bring it back or save it for the exile.
i play a second winc condition sideboard.
I personally am on 1 grapeshot 2 noxious revival. Revival allows more ways to go off whereas a second grapeshot just means you have more wincons. I board into ghirapur aether grid if I need a second wincon. Usually if you're using a cranial extraction-esque effect on us, it's more than likely retract before grapeshot anyway. But if you're boarding those effects in, you're gonna get crushed before you can cast that anyway. May be in the minority nowadays, but I feel only 1 grapeshot is necessary
It's a preference thing, but my experience has been that between early game troubles with discard/scooze interaction and the benefit of being able to remove problematic creatures/planeswalkers early, the extra Grapeshot avoids a lot of 'feel bad' scenarios. It doesn't help with turn 1 Thoughtsieze into Surgical Extraction though. That happened to me the first week I ran this list, Lol! That was an oddball mono black brew that ran playsets of both and Damnation mainboard.
Most of the content is stuff we already know, but the most interesting is the idea of maindecking the Hurkyl's Recall in one of the flex slots. For instance, in my list I'd go -1 GS and +1 HR, keeping a 1/1 split on the remaining GS and Noxious. The author's article claims, incorrectly, that "No one (so far) has run Hurkyl's Recall in the maindeck as additional Retracts." Not true; we used to run that maindeck HR all the time in the Muddle the Mixture lists. The article argues Cheeri0s gets a big consistency bump from adding it back even though we're on 8 engines.
What do we think about that slot going to HR? Regardless of the list you were using, you'd probably find the room in your SV/GS/NR slots by shaving one and adding the HR in its place. Thoughts?
There's also the advantage that, should your meta be filled with Affinity and/or Eldrazi Tron (packing MD Chalice), it also gives you a way to interact G1 should you find yourself in a precarious position.
I've been running 1 maindeck and I would have to see something very amazing to cut it. 5 Retracts is incredible; you don't need 8, since unlike Paladin you're going to draw a bunch of cards when you see Retract.
I don't have results from 50 games, and I can't do the math since equipment chains are insanely complicated to calculate, but I can definitely say that I've used it enough, and bricked needing to to topdeck a bounce spell enough, that it feels right. I would even say that a super stripped down, straight-for-the-throat list would run 2 or 3 and very few if any other flex cards. Something like:
Whiffing on finding a Retract has been the most common point of failure for me so far, so I'm not entirely against one main Hurkyl's. I do end up with a lot of combos where I have only U, and playing Hurkyl's does mean that you can't SV to help continue the chain if you're mana-light just in case. It will drastically improve the kill rate when you have 4+ mana, but is often dead if we're going off T2 or T3. I've been running some in the board for non-interactive matchups; I'll consider trying one main tonight's modern event.
Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
I think everyone can agree that have extra copies of retract main could be very valuable. The current choices are either HR or Paradoxical Outcome.
HR Pros
Only 2 mana
Can bounce opponents chalice
Great against heavy affinity metas
HR Cons
Still requires an engine in play to combo
Cost 2 mana
Paradoxical has already been discussed but, imo it's more deserving of a main deck spot as a one or even 2 then HR which feels much more like a sb answer unless main deck chalice is a thing in your meta.
I used to run it for redundancy when I was running Serum Powder and liked it and kept it afterward, but it felt strange once I put PO in the sideboard.
I'm about to try running a hyper Go for the Throat version:
8 Paladin
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Serum Powder
4 Opal
4 Retact
2 Grapeshot
20 Cheeri0s
4 Rugged Prairie
10 Other lands
I don't think I'll run this every week, but sometimes I'll show up with the "If I'm on the play you might not get a draw step!" version.
I used to run it for redundancy when I was running Serum Powder and liked it and kept it afterward, but it felt strange once I put PO in the sideboard.
I'm about to try running a hyper Go for the Throat version:
8 Paladin
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Serum Powder
4 Opal
4 Retact
2 Grapeshot
20 Cheeri0s
4 Rugged Prairie
10 Other lands
I don't think I'll run this every week, but sometimes I'll show up with the "If I'm on the play you might not get a draw step!" version.
This is very similar to what I've been running. It's so filthy and satisfying; can't say I've made any new friends however.
If going SSG route, would 4 SSG be too many? Are you using it more to cheat Sram into play on T1? Or as Opal #5-8?
It just seems a little bit 'less good' in the opening hand.
(Only have the deck in paper so it's harder for me to try new ideas, so my apologies for just theory crafting on this one. Figuredo I would just ask people running it what their impressions are)
I was fortunate enough to get the Mox Opals from someone taking a part their affinity deck last night. I ordered the rest of the cards that I didn't have on hand and am going to go with this for my first build. Thoughts would be appreciated!!!
What
If you run Caverns, you name whichever creature you have. If you have both, you name Human.
Blue decks will try to brick your combo turn by countering Retract. Against them, you have to be ready to play around that, either with Silence/Swan Song, baiting counters, or trying to maneuver similar to the way you land Paladin against removal.
I have no idea how my post was confusing.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I was confused because we were talking about Cavern but then you started talking about Mindbreak Trap and Dispel against Retract in a way that seemed like it was either a bit of a non sequitur or confusion about Cavern. Sounds like it was just a deviation from the original subject that I processed incorrectly. Sorry.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
Thanks for that. Last night in 5 rounds I drew through my entire deck with 1 one engine 3 times, once on turn 2 and once on turn 3 and once much later in the game after I waited to have 2 threats and the first one bit the dust.
Congrats! On to the Hall of Champions for you...
Generally, people should not be shipping hands that have 1 land and 1 engine. Or even 1 Opal and 1 engine, especially if you can activate the Opal and have an SV/Retract/4th equipment. By a similar token, no one should be complaining about variance and bad luck when you play this deck and mull to oblivion. Like falsehate said, if you're going to be unhappy about that, this isn't the deck for you. I will say that the "mull to oblivion" line is itself a very skill and stats intensive line. Against fast decks, you definitely want to mull to 5 for the good hand. But against slower decks, it is not always wrong to keep some 6 card hands that don't have engines but do have SV and other cards. Indeed, against discard decks, it's sometimes good to not have that engine on the play. These are important considerations we all need to be making when mulling.
RE: Paradoxical Outcome
I've had some mixed experiences with Outcome. I didn't like it maindeck; too many fast decks on MTGO so it's often win-more or dead. I loved it against BGx though. It's one of the few cards you are happy to topdeck against Lily, and it doesn't fall to IoK. I'm debating on whether or not I want it in addition to or in place of Leyline in the board. They do different things but both cards are very strong against BGx.
1) Live topdeck
2) Good in multiples
3) Actively combos (Leyline passively defends)
4) Sideboarding does not introduce bricks (useful mid-combo)
Cons OVER Leyline:
1) Costs 4 mana
2) Leaves us defenseless against other decks we would bring Leyline in
Pros WITH Leyline:
1) Sideboarding gives even more resilience against interaction without diluting more than simply adding Leyline would
2) Mulligans are stronger, no need to kill ourselves looking for the free Leyline
3) Can be a strong sideboard option when Leyline isn't amd vice versa
Cons WITH Leyline:
1) oh god where did my sideboard slots go please help me find them
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Also tell your friend the days of 1 Grapeshot list are past according to me. ;-)
It's a bad matchup, especially in G1. I wouldn't put too much effort into testing it though. It only makes up 1/3 of your games against Abzan and there aren't too many specialized decisions to make that are specific to Abzan. G2 and G3 are much more important between SB cards on both sides of the tables, mulligans, and both opponents knowing exactly what the other is playing.
Re: 2 Grapeshot
I love my double Grapeshot on MTGO. The Comp League meta has this odd mix of 1-2 super interactive decks every League and 1-2 super fast decks. Here, NR is too slow and life inefficient. GS is a sweeper and spot removal that more efficiently lets you switch between roles.
I personally am on 1 grapeshot 2 noxious revival. Revival allows more ways to go off whereas a second grapeshot just means you have more wincons. I board into ghirapur aether grid if I need a second wincon. Usually if you're using a cranial extraction-esque effect on us, it's more than likely retract before grapeshot anyway. But if you're boarding those effects in, you're gonna get crushed before you can cast that anyway. May be in the minority nowadays, but I feel only 1 grapeshot is necessary
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/taufik-indrakesuma/calculating-cheerios
Most of the content is stuff we already know, but the most interesting is the idea of maindecking the Hurkyl's Recall in one of the flex slots. For instance, in my list I'd go -1 GS and +1 HR, keeping a 1/1 split on the remaining GS and Noxious. The author's article claims, incorrectly, that "No one (so far) has run Hurkyl's Recall in the maindeck as additional Retracts." Not true; we used to run that maindeck HR all the time in the Muddle the Mixture lists. The article argues Cheeri0s gets a big consistency bump from adding it back even though we're on 8 engines.
What do we think about that slot going to HR? Regardless of the list you were using, you'd probably find the room in your SV/GS/NR slots by shaving one and adding the HR in its place. Thoughts?
I'm curious to try it myself.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
I don't have results from 50 games, and I can't do the math since equipment chains are insanely complicated to calculate, but I can definitely say that I've used it enough, and bricked needing to to topdeck a bounce spell enough, that it feels right. I would even say that a super stripped down, straight-for-the-throat list would run 2 or 3 and very few if any other flex cards. Something like:
8 Paladin
4 Opal
4 Retract
2 Hurkyl's
2 Noxious
1 Grapeshot
24 Equips
15 Lands (at least 6 fetches)
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
HR Pros
Only 2 mana
Can bounce opponents chalice
Great against heavy affinity metas
HR Cons
Still requires an engine in play to combo
Cost 2 mana
Paradoxical has already been discussed but, imo it's more deserving of a main deck spot as a one or even 2 then HR which feels much more like a sb answer unless main deck chalice is a thing in your meta.
I'm about to try running a hyper Go for the Throat version:
8 Paladin
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Serum Powder
4 Opal
4 Retact
2 Grapeshot
20 Cheeri0s
4 Rugged Prairie
10 Other lands
I don't think I'll run this every week, but sometimes I'll show up with the "If I'm on the play you might not get a draw step!" version.
This is very similar to what I've been running. It's so filthy and satisfying; can't say I've made any new friends however.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
It just seems a little bit 'less good' in the opening hand.
(Only have the deck in paper so it's harder for me to try new ideas, so my apologies for just theory crafting on this one. Figuredo I would just ask people running it what their impressions are)
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Mox Opal
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Paradise Mantle
2 Cathar's Shield
2 Accorder's Shield
4 Bone Saw
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
// 6 Instant
4 Retract
1 Noxious Revival
1 Swan Song
// 16 Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Mana Confluence
4 Serum Visions
2 Grapeshot
4 Leyline of Sanctity
// 7 Instant
2 Swan Song
2 Silence
2 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Apostle's Blessing
4 Fragmentize
I thought I would play it safe for awhile with 2 Grapeshot.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC