Re: Stony silence:
What I meant to say was that I don't see this as being a particularly bad (good?) hate card, i.e. not one that really hoses us. The equip-blocking makes bolt a smidge better, but is otherwise inconsequential, except in aggro builds. The mana block from mox is a bit of an issue, but doesn't really cause too many problems if you think about it: A T2 Stony Silence means they're tapped out- this means we drop a paladin and draw a bunch of cards. Even if we don't combo off, that can give us fuel and sculpt our hand to go off next turn, not necessarily a loss. Note also this means that they have to remove the paladin in their turn, reducing their T3 plays. If they T3 s.silence, holding up removal, that means we can T2 combo, but also means that they've slowed themselves down when they could've been doing something productive on T3- again, not necessarily a bad outcome. And if you consider that we have up to 3 or 4 lands to play with, this isn't a terrible outcome either. Now to go a step further, consider what boarding in Stony Silence means- what have they taken out? Did they mulligan to get it? both of these can be a positive for us as we die to simpler strategies than stony silence. Put another way: stony silence is among the hate cards that people can throw at us, but is almost certainly at the low-end of the hate list. Compare Eidolon or chalice, which simply shuts us down the moment it hits the board. In any event, I'm not telling people not to board in cards to take out stony silence, since it doesn't require a taxing sideboard (and since the paladin draw engine still works, so we have good odds of actually getting the silver bullet), just curious that so many people are throwing it up as a hate card.
Silence is going to stop the combo on T2 in all cases. It will also stop the combo on T3 in most cases. Assuming three lands in play, you will need to hit a lethal storm count on just a single Retract; you'll need the other two mana to cast Grapeshot. This means you can't cast a second engine to dig deeper, can't cast any dig at all during the combo, and need a critical mass of equipment such that one Retract gets the job done. It also means if your Paladin died between T2 and T3, you can't combo out at all on T3 because you'll need all three mana for the engine and the Retract. Silence will also stop the combo on T4 if you need to cast an engine and try to combo out on the same turn (no mana for Grapeshot). That's pretty costly, especially because most of the decks playing Silence are running serious removal, countermagic, or a clock of their own.
My testing was vs Jund (old builds, not sure what the new fatal push meta will look like, but probably even worse). Personally, I found jund unwinnable. Between discard and removal, there was no way to consistently win. Random wins? Sure, but consistent wins? None. Like 80-20 or some such nonsense. Burn was easily winnable with the right sideboard, although the matchup was much more borderline preboard in the pure cantrip version, I would say less than 50-50, but it depends on the opponent's list, as some burn is actually not necessarily that removal heavy.
Jund feels like it will be rough, but I expect it to be no worse than 30-70 in G1 and 40-60 in G2/G3. Jund misses on removal more than people give it credit, and in G2/G3 we should be able to either address some of that removal with protection, or (my preferred route) flood them with threats.
Why isn't this deck even Developing Competitive? What problems does it have?
The deck has basically zero results and DC is reserved for decks with a Tier 3 baseline of results. If we get there, we'll move up.
Great answer... The question is: why doesn't the deck win?
The deck was inconsistent and fragile with just 4 Paladins, so it was bad. Now that we've added 4 Sram, it's a totally new beast. AER wasn't even legal in Modern until this weekend, so there has been no time to see if the new 8 engine version has what it takes to succeed in competitive Modern. Time will tell! We'll just keep trying to optimize versions until we get something that works the best.
Why arent we playing horizon canopy ? I mean this cards helps a lot with flooded games
Unfortunately, Canopy can't make the cut here, I don't think. You can only play so many non-blue sources, and tapping for green does nothing. In addition, in a 15-land deck you won't be flooding very often. While it may be correct to play a couple of half-cantrips in land slots, I'd be inclined to go to 1-2 Temple of Enlightnement over Canopy. It's always going to dig, and will never ping you at the cost of coming in tapped. While slightly anti-synergistic with Cantrips (only slightly, as Temple -> Visions is great) it may be worth testing in a list with no maindeck Sigarda'a Aid as those won't have much to do turn one.
Having played this deck previously my opponents generally side in significantly more spot removal and protection (ie. Leyline). Assuming we bring in more threats having an engine stick on the board doesn't seem as important as in game 1, therefore they are likely to be main target of spot removal (assuming we managed to combo and the opponent knows what the deck does!). Does this free the deck up enough that the other threats are worthwhile bringing in?
NOTE: I know the sideboard examples I've posted don't include all possible card choices, but will hopefully give an idea of the possible options we have.
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
For protection, I'm on Favor of the Mighty over Silence, for now. There are only 2-3 creatures in most BGx lists that can break protection, and none in Burn or UWR (maybe one Clique). The one part of the board that I'm not sold on is the 2 Pact of Negation, which may get exchanged for 2 Silence, or an additional copy of both Favor and Path. One Repeal may additionally get switched for an Echoing Truth to play around the (unlikely) double chalice from decks that play 4 like U-Tron or Leyline of Sanctity, but I'm currently not too concerned.
An alternate win condition would be nice to either play around Extraction effects or provide a different axis of interaction, but I'm not conceptually sold on their effectiveness. That said, I haven't played enough games with Bastion Inventor or Monastery Mentor in my deck, and Gaveleer + Hysteria is only two slots. Overall, this is the aspect of the deck I'm least sure on, more so than the correct number of Noxious Revival.
@Wesste: I think all three of those are viable sideboards. I personally would lean to sideboard #3 but -geist and +bastion inventor, but then again I'd just have bastion inventor in the main.
After having the chance to test, I think I've settled on a non-combo version of the deck as my preference, since it seems to have the most overall resilience by relying on hexproof and huge toughness to beat removal and win combat, and sheer card draw to scuplt the hand and combat discard. I've gone to golem-skin gauntlets as my wincon, rather than grapeshot, since in this mana-heavy version I'm drawing over multiple turns, rather than all on one turn. It is obviously much much slower than the combo version, but has a degree of inevitability that the combo doesn't have. Still plenty of refining to do (a sideboard and fixing the mana base) but I'm pretty happy with the build. The sideboard could be particularly interesting as it is quite possible to convert to combo for game 2 (or conversely, to run combo maindeck and convert to this postboard).
@Be_lakor - Loving your list, I think it's inspired!
I did some testing against Burn last night with 3 Echoing Truths. The card is sensational against Eidelon(s) and while it performed well, I still won less than a third of the post sideboard games. My testing partner suggested I treat the Burn matchup as unwinnable and waste no sideboard slots on it, focusing on the rest of the meta.
BTW, Jeskai Nahiri with Blessed Alliance replacing Timely Reinforcements seems really good right now, as does Lantern with Inventor's Fair and Crucible of Worlds. Since I own/play both of those decks, distractions are everywhere. (EDIT: I previously said Academy Ruins when I meant Inventor's Fair.)
I'm committed to Cheeri0s Storm but will switch it up to keep the meta guessing. Discard, Chalice & Burn are all on the rise big time in my local meta.
Swiftfoot Boots should really get more attention. Lightning Greaves is one of the best protections for Sram if you have Sigarda's Aid on the field and even supports his inability to equip for free.
I think your points about better options than Lightning Greaves are even more true as unfortunately shroud means no equipping (even with Sigarda's Aid) as they require you to target a creature.
I encountered your archetype quite regurlarly recently and I offer you my feedback, playing against it. Maybe it's all popular knowledge for you, but who knows.
1- Even being a control deck, it's hard to answer a T2 Sram into a T3 Paladin. Control / midrange decks keep opening hands with only 1 removal spell sometimes. So this deck gains points against fair decks, that's for sure.
2- Leyline of Sanctity is really not great when not in your opening hand. I believe you really want to mulligan to a SB card in MUs your opponent will try to interact with Thoughtseize effects (even though it's not a Leyline, at least have something along with a normal good G1 hand). I would compare this to GW Bogles which is almost unstoppable when a Leyline is on the bf T0 against black decks.
3- I really struggled against the package Swan Song + Wear // Tear. I was playing an artifact deck, so obviously killing a Bird + an artifact in one spell was insane.
4- Monastery Mentor didn't impress me as a plan B against Control. Most things that hit Paladins will hit Mentors, and wrath effects will deal with monks. I was much more in trouble when my opponent had counterspells and played a patient game, loading his hand for a big turn. Maybe now that you have 8 Paladin effects, you may find a better plan B, maybe Mentor isn't as necessary as he used to.
5- Surgical Extraction was my MVP overall. Being able to hit Retract is backbreaking. Exctration effects are played quite much nowadays and they either counter an Noxious Revival or simply get rid of your one single way to combo off. That's one of the reasons why Swan Song is great imho. That implies - to me - that you may like an alt win con that doesn't die to most removal (Geist of Saint Traft, Bastion Inventor, ...), or something like Hurkyl's Recall to either counter Extraction effects or bounce Chalice of the Void, Torpor Orb, Ensnaring Bridge, or whatever card you might consider annoying.
That last point is clearly subjective and narrow, since I'm not familiar with your deck guys, and there's like a couple different versions too. Anyway the archetype is impressive at what it does, I might give it a try and read more of this topic someday.
On Leyline, I certainly agree that it's underwhelming, and not something I'd mulligan very hard for. However, the other options available are leaning heavily on Noxious Revival to rebuy engines, or fringe cards such as Pure Intentions. Neither options seems especially appealing, so Leyline may be the best available. The only other choice that I could see being effective is Swan Song, but as with Pure Intentions, leaving it up when I want to be casting other spells like cantrips or Favor of the Mighty during setup turns seems difficult.
As to Be_lakor regarding extractions, I'm aware that Surgical Extractions gets countered by (but also counters) Noxious Revival. However, it's more the threat of Lost Legacy or Slaughter Games picking off Grapeshot that I'm worried about, as they're both cards I've seen plenty of. My own fault for playing too much Ad Nauseam, I suppose. While we can theoretically win underneath them, their presence is probably going to put my on the Hysteria + Mentor or Gaveleer plan, but I don't know if it belongs main or side, as both are fairly tight for space.
Finally, for those of you who have tested with Aether Grid, what were your impressions? While it has potential, in my mind the upside maxes at pinging for 2-3 a turn starting on turn 3, which isn't exactly relevant for either a clock or removal in the matchups we would want it. Affinity can use the card for cleanup work, while Lantern forces extremely long games. We do neither so the card seems underwhelming. That said, I haven't tested with it yet, so I'll leave myself open to being persuaded of its effectiveness.
Just wanted to say thanks for all the helpful information from this primer as well as the former one. I stumbled upon this deck when I was testing Sram as a replacement/compliment to kor spiritdancer in my Bogles deck. I'm always eager to try promising, under-the-radar modern decks, so I've been acquiring the pieces and hope to have my decklist figured out shortly.
One thing that I couldn't find an answer to was the reason for running only a single copy of grapeshot? How often are you in situations where your grapeshot is exiled and can't be recycled w/ noxious? What's the next plan of attack should that happen? I appreciate the tips and look forward to piloting the deck myself soon.
I'm a long time advocate-not-player of this deck and when Sram was spoiled, I knew it was finally time to buy into my favorite deck I don't actually play. The only thing holding me back is Mox Opal. I own one, but I don't think I want to drop the cash on three more just yet. Obviously it is far from ideal, but has anyone tried out Simian Spirit Guide? From my goldfishing, the red mana monkey seems to be an alright replacement for the Opal (especially having at least one Opal).
Just wanted to say thanks for all the helpful information from this primer as well as the former one. I stumbled upon this deck when I was testing Sram as a replacement/compliment to kor spiritdancer in my Bogles deck. I'm always eager to try promising, under-the-radar modern decks, so I've been acquiring the pieces and hope to have my decklist figured out shortly.
One thing that I couldn't find an answer to was the reason for running only a single copy of grapeshot? How often are you in situations where your grapeshot is exiled and can't be recycled w/ noxious? What's the next plan of attack should that happen? I appreciate the tips and look forward to piloting the deck myself soon.
Cheers
You will find different approaches. I am going ping pong between "all-in" on the combo and more mid-range like Be_lakor's list and see what works best, as well as keep the meta guessing what I'm up to. My take on "all-in" combo uses Serum Powder to see more opening hands, so it has more redundancy build in: 3 Grapeshots, a Hurkyl's Recall in addition to the playset of Retracts, and goes lean on lands. Even I found room for 2 Bastion Inventor and run some Bone Saw's and Sigil of Distinction to be able to become the beatdown when needed. I also created a fetch package that allows me to run a Sacred Foundry in the sideboard (or main) in case Opal is getting hated on or I want to bring back Goblin Gavaleer/Mass Hysteria.
The idea with this version is to find an opener with a threat and two lands and go off T2, T3 at the latest. This is a high risk / high reward build that is super fun to playtest. There is enough redundancy here that a hand with Serum Powder and two of any critical piece can be safely exiled, but there is no card filter. A good hand that is uninterrupted will kill quickly a very high percentage of the time. Even without an additional creature package, I have some aggressive Cheeri0s to help me beat down on Ad Naus/control/etc as a backup plan.
This version is closer to what I will be playing. It removes a couple Cheeri0s and some of the redundancy to add a couple Bastion Inventors and 3 Serum Visions to improve consistency when the first engine creature dropped eats removal or if I have to keep a hand that missing a key piece. You'll notice in both versions there is a premium on white mana sources and I don't run Sacred Foundry in the main without need of red beyond Grapeshot because not being able to cast a Retract in an opening hand that has one is soul crushing.
There is a lot of room for creativity here and hopefully this will help you start thinking through the balancing options that come into play. Honestly much more important than which list you run is experience and sequencing your plays. For example, I won a game the other night against a friend I knew was playing Counterflux in the sideboard, and I drew through my entire deck and carefully navigated Sram's draw ability so that I had both Grapeshots in hand, Paradise Mantle on an uptapped creature and used Noxious Revival to draw an Opal as my last card draw so that I could cast a second Grapeshot after he Counterfluxed the first one. This is a very cornercase example, but understanding how to use your resources is really important and will make you appreciate cards like Pact of Negation and Sigil of Distinction, which matchups they can help you win, and when you can use them without overcommitting. Sometimes you just have to go for it, of course.
There is a guy in my local meta who can borrow virtually any deck in the meta and be a threat to win the tournament, be it Tron, Taking Turns, Ad Nauseum, Lantern Control, Burn, Affinity, whatever. I let him pilot my list the other night and watching him fumble around in the dark was so painful. I had to talk him through every play for a couple of games before I could even stand to watch him try. Anyway, do not underestimate the learning curve with this style of deck!
I'm a long time advocate-not-player of this deck and when Sram was spoiled, I knew it was finally time to buy into my favorite deck I don't actually play. The only thing holding me back is Mox Opal. I own one, but I don't think I want to drop the cash on three more just yet. Obviously it is far from ideal, but has anyone tried out Simian Spirit Guide? From my goldfishing, the red mana monkey seems to be an alright replacement for the Opal (especially having at least one Opal).
The question has been asked many times. You can suffer through a budget build, but start saving because the key to this deck's speed is casting multiple Retracts on the same turn and you need the Opals to generate blue mana over and over.
I'm a long time advocate-not-player of this deck and when Sram was spoiled, I knew it was finally time to buy into my favorite deck I don't actually play. The only thing holding me back is Mox Opal. I own one, but I don't think I want to drop the cash on three more just yet. Obviously it is far from ideal, but has anyone tried out Simian Spirit Guide? From my goldfishing, the red mana monkey seems to be an alright replacement for the Opal (especially having at least one Opal).
The question has been asked many times. You can suffer through a budget build, but start saving because the key to this deck's speed is casting multiple Retracts on the same turn and you need the Opals to generate blue mana over and over.
(Sorry I missed the earlier questions.)
I figured as much. I'm sure I'll get them soon-ish. I just didn't want to drop $40 per card before I got a little bit more familiar with the deck.
I'm a long time advocate-not-player of this deck and when Sram was spoiled, I knew it was finally time to buy into my favorite deck I don't actually play. The only thing holding me back is Mox Opal. I own one, but I don't think I want to drop the cash on three more just yet. Obviously it is far from ideal, but has anyone tried out Simian Spirit Guide? From my goldfishing, the red mana monkey seems to be an alright replacement for the Opal (especially having at least one Opal).
SSG is problematic for a number of reasons. First, it doesn't cast Paladin at all. Second, it doesn't cast Retract at all. Third, it doesn't cast whatever cantrips or dig you are using at all. Finally, it's another do-nothing slot that only works if we already have a Sram (not Paladin) in hand plus the lands to naturally cast Retract. I don't want to build in more dead slots and mini synergies on top of a deck that already depends on drawing an engine plus combo pieces.
Re: testing
I finished my G1 Burn tests against the GP Indy winning list. I used a 7 cantrip Cheeri0s list with 14 lands, 20 equipment, and 1 NR. The end result was a 43% win-rate in G1 over 40 test games: 50% on the play, 35% on the draw. I'll run the G2-G3 matchups next to see how this can improve. Here's my current SB:
In lieu of Leyline, I'm trying the "threat-heavy" approach to the BGx matchup. This imitates the BGx mirror strategy of boarding out some degree of discard and trying to go heavier on threats than one-for-one answers. I'm not sold on Grid yet but am also not testing a matchup where it will shine, so I'm leaving those slots as-is for now.
For G2-G3, I'm going to board out my Sleights (3 slots) for the Paths. Eidolon is by far the biggest problem in Burn and I need an answer to it. I expect Burn to add in a little more removal to handle engines, so I'm also going to add Inventor over a NR.
Found this deck through the modern nexus article. I'm a combo player at heart, namely pre-ban amulet bloom, grixis goryo's vengeance in modern, and sneak and show, and imperial painter in legacy and food chain prossh in EDH. The consistency and speed of this new sram cheeri0s deck is about as fast as I've ever seen in any format. The card draw off 1 puresteel/sram is arguably better than legacy elvess and the 2+ sram/puresteel paladins is better than anything I've ever seen. I'm wondering on thoughts of Laboratory Maniac as an alternative wincon in the board. Drawing entire deck with 2-3 srams is entirely doable, while keeping a reasonable storm count. Then it's just a matter of grapeshot for 9, noxious revival targetting grapeshot, sram trigger one more time then grapeshot for 11 if labman dies on the stack. In fact, it's entirely possible to go off with no open mana, as entire deck will draw the moxes to play lab man. Maybe run a few pact of negations as well. Fantastic deck.
EDIT: Ignore the last past- grapeshot is sorcery speed.
Silence is going to stop the combo on T2 in all cases. It will also stop the combo on T3 in most cases. Assuming three lands in play, you will need to hit a lethal storm count on just a single Retract; you'll need the other two mana to cast Grapeshot. This means you can't cast a second engine to dig deeper, can't cast any dig at all during the combo, and need a critical mass of equipment such that one Retract gets the job done. It also means if your Paladin died between T2 and T3, you can't combo out at all on T3 because you'll need all three mana for the engine and the Retract. Silence will also stop the combo on T4 if you need to cast an engine and try to combo out on the same turn (no mana for Grapeshot). That's pretty costly, especially because most of the decks playing Silence are running serious removal, countermagic, or a clock of their own.
Jund feels like it will be rough, but I expect it to be no worse than 30-70 in G1 and 40-60 in G2/G3. Jund misses on removal more than people give it credit, and in G2/G3 we should be able to either address some of that removal with protection, or (my preferred route) flood them with threats.
The deck has basically zero results and DC is reserved for decks with a Tier 3 baseline of results. If we get there, we'll move up.
The deck was inconsistent and fragile with just 4 Paladins, so it was bad. Now that we've added 4 Sram, it's a totally new beast. AER wasn't even legal in Modern until this weekend, so there has been no time to see if the new 8 engine version has what it takes to succeed in competitive Modern. Time will tell! We'll just keep trying to optimize versions until we get something that works the best.
If you want to get technical, if Blood Moon is in play, Dryad Arbor is a green 1/1 nonbasic mountain, that's also still a creature.
I can see the spoiler image but not the decklist image.
Unfortunately, Canopy can't make the cut here, I don't think. You can only play so many non-blue sources, and tapping for green does nothing. In addition, in a 15-land deck you won't be flooding very often. While it may be correct to play a couple of half-cantrips in land slots, I'd be inclined to go to 1-2 Temple of Enlightnement over Canopy. It's always going to dig, and will never ping you at the cost of coming in tapped. While slightly anti-synergistic with Cantrips (only slightly, as Temple -> Visions is great) it may be worth testing in a list with no maindeck Sigarda'a Aid as those won't have much to do turn one.
Are we going all out protection?
4 leyline of sanctity
4 silence
2 wear // tear
2 echoing truth
1 Grafdigger's cage
2 path to exile
Or, do we completely change the deck style?
3 monastery mentor
2 mass hysteria
2 goblin gaveleer
4 enraged giant
1 Ghirapur aether grid
3 bastion inventor
Or, do we go for a combination of both increased protection and additional threats?
3 silence
2 monastery mentor
3 Geist of Saint traft
2 metallic rebuke
2 goblin gaveleer
2 spirit link
1 erayo, soratami ascendant
Having played this deck previously my opponents generally side in significantly more spot removal and protection (ie. Leyline). Assuming we bring in more threats having an engine stick on the board doesn't seem as important as in game 1, therefore they are likely to be main target of spot removal (assuming we managed to combo and the opponent knows what the deck does!). Does this free the deck up enough that the other threats are worthwhile bringing in?
NOTE: I know the sideboard examples I've posted don't include all possible card choices, but will hopefully give an idea of the possible options we have.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pact of Negation
4 Repeal
2 Path to Exile
For protection, I'm on Favor of the Mighty over Silence, for now. There are only 2-3 creatures in most BGx lists that can break protection, and none in Burn or UWR (maybe one Clique). The one part of the board that I'm not sold on is the 2 Pact of Negation, which may get exchanged for 2 Silence, or an additional copy of both Favor and Path. One Repeal may additionally get switched for an Echoing Truth to play around the (unlikely) double chalice from decks that play 4 like U-Tron or Leyline of Sanctity, but I'm currently not too concerned.
An alternate win condition would be nice to either play around Extraction effects or provide a different axis of interaction, but I'm not conceptually sold on their effectiveness. That said, I haven't played enough games with Bastion Inventor or Monastery Mentor in my deck, and Gaveleer + Hysteria is only two slots. Overall, this is the aspect of the deck I'm least sure on, more so than the correct number of Noxious Revival.
After having the chance to test, I think I've settled on a non-combo version of the deck as my preference, since it seems to have the most overall resilience by relying on hexproof and huge toughness to beat removal and win combat, and sheer card draw to scuplt the hand and combat discard. I've gone to golem-skin gauntlets as my wincon, rather than grapeshot, since in this mana-heavy version I'm drawing over multiple turns, rather than all on one turn. It is obviously much much slower than the combo version, but has a degree of inevitability that the combo doesn't have. Still plenty of refining to do (a sideboard and fixing the mana base) but I'm pretty happy with the build. The sideboard could be particularly interesting as it is quite possible to convert to combo for game 2 (or conversely, to run combo maindeck and convert to this postboard).
Decklist:
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 bastion inventor
Artifacts 20
2 golem-skin gauntlets
3 sigil of distinction
3 cathar's shield
4 bone saw
4 accorder's shield
4 mox opal
4 repeal
4 thoughtcast
4 reverse engineer
lands 16
4 flooded strand
4 windswept heath
4 hallowed fountain
2 island
2 plains
I did some testing against Burn last night with 3 Echoing Truths. The card is sensational against Eidelon(s) and while it performed well, I still won less than a third of the post sideboard games. My testing partner suggested I treat the Burn matchup as unwinnable and waste no sideboard slots on it, focusing on the rest of the meta.
BTW, Jeskai Nahiri with Blessed Alliance replacing Timely Reinforcements seems really good right now, as does Lantern with Inventor's Fair and Crucible of Worlds. Since I own/play both of those decks, distractions are everywhere. (EDIT: I previously said Academy Ruins when I meant Inventor's Fair.)
I'm committed to Cheeri0s Storm but will switch it up to keep the meta guessing. Discard, Chalice & Burn are all on the rise big time in my local meta.
I think your points about better options than Lightning Greaves are even more true as unfortunately shroud means no equipping (even with Sigarda's Aid) as they require you to target a creature.
I encountered your archetype quite regurlarly recently and I offer you my feedback, playing against it. Maybe it's all popular knowledge for you, but who knows.
1- Even being a control deck, it's hard to answer a T2 Sram into a T3 Paladin. Control / midrange decks keep opening hands with only 1 removal spell sometimes. So this deck gains points against fair decks, that's for sure.
2- Leyline of Sanctity is really not great when not in your opening hand. I believe you really want to mulligan to a SB card in MUs your opponent will try to interact with Thoughtseize effects (even though it's not a Leyline, at least have something along with a normal good G1 hand). I would compare this to GW Bogles which is almost unstoppable when a Leyline is on the bf T0 against black decks.
3- I really struggled against the package Swan Song + Wear // Tear. I was playing an artifact deck, so obviously killing a Bird + an artifact in one spell was insane.
4- Monastery Mentor didn't impress me as a plan B against Control. Most things that hit Paladins will hit Mentors, and wrath effects will deal with monks. I was much more in trouble when my opponent had counterspells and played a patient game, loading his hand for a big turn. Maybe now that you have 8 Paladin effects, you may find a better plan B, maybe Mentor isn't as necessary as he used to.
5- Surgical Extraction was my MVP overall. Being able to hit Retract is backbreaking. Exctration effects are played quite much nowadays and they either counter an Noxious Revival or simply get rid of your one single way to combo off. That's one of the reasons why Swan Song is great imho. That implies - to me - that you may like an alt win con that doesn't die to most removal (Geist of Saint Traft, Bastion Inventor, ...), or something like Hurkyl's Recall to either counter Extraction effects or bounce Chalice of the Void, Torpor Orb, Ensnaring Bridge, or whatever card you might consider annoying.
That last point is clearly subjective and narrow, since I'm not familiar with your deck guys, and there's like a couple different versions too. Anyway the archetype is impressive at what it does, I might give it a try and read more of this topic someday.
As to Be_lakor regarding extractions, I'm aware that Surgical Extractions gets countered by (but also counters) Noxious Revival. However, it's more the threat of Lost Legacy or Slaughter Games picking off Grapeshot that I'm worried about, as they're both cards I've seen plenty of. My own fault for playing too much Ad Nauseam, I suppose. While we can theoretically win underneath them, their presence is probably going to put my on the Hysteria + Mentor or Gaveleer plan, but I don't know if it belongs main or side, as both are fairly tight for space.
Finally, for those of you who have tested with Aether Grid, what were your impressions? While it has potential, in my mind the upside maxes at pinging for 2-3 a turn starting on turn 3, which isn't exactly relevant for either a clock or removal in the matchups we would want it. Affinity can use the card for cleanup work, while Lantern forces extremely long games. We do neither so the card seems underwhelming. That said, I haven't tested with it yet, so I'll leave myself open to being persuaded of its effectiveness.
Just wanted to say thanks for all the helpful information from this primer as well as the former one. I stumbled upon this deck when I was testing Sram as a replacement/compliment to kor spiritdancer in my Bogles deck. I'm always eager to try promising, under-the-radar modern decks, so I've been acquiring the pieces and hope to have my decklist figured out shortly.
One thing that I couldn't find an answer to was the reason for running only a single copy of grapeshot? How often are you in situations where your grapeshot is exiled and can't be recycled w/ noxious? What's the next plan of attack should that happen? I appreciate the tips and look forward to piloting the deck myself soon.
Cheers
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[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
Creatures: 8
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
Spells: 38
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
2 Cathar's Shield
3 Sigil of Distinction
3 Bone Saw
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Retract
3 Grapeshot
2 Noxious Revival
4 Serum Powder
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Plains
1 Island
3 Echoing Truth
2 Pact of Negation
2 Sigarda's Aid
4 Repeal
3 Silence
1 Sacred Foundry
Creatures: 10
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
2 Bastion Inventor
Spells: 36
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
3 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
2 Cathar's Shield
3 Sigil of Distinction
2 Bone Saw
4 Retract
2 Grapeshot
1 Noxious Revival
4 Serum Powder
3 Serum Visions
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Plains
1 Island
There is a lot of room for creativity here and hopefully this will help you start thinking through the balancing options that come into play. Honestly much more important than which list you run is experience and sequencing your plays. For example, I won a game the other night against a friend I knew was playing Counterflux in the sideboard, and I drew through my entire deck and carefully navigated Sram's draw ability so that I had both Grapeshots in hand, Paradise Mantle on an uptapped creature and used Noxious Revival to draw an Opal as my last card draw so that I could cast a second Grapeshot after he Counterfluxed the first one. This is a very cornercase example, but understanding how to use your resources is really important and will make you appreciate cards like Pact of Negation and Sigil of Distinction, which matchups they can help you win, and when you can use them without overcommitting. Sometimes you just have to go for it, of course.
There is a guy in my local meta who can borrow virtually any deck in the meta and be a threat to win the tournament, be it Tron, Taking Turns, Ad Nauseum, Lantern Control, Burn, Affinity, whatever. I let him pilot my list the other night and watching him fumble around in the dark was so painful. I had to talk him through every play for a couple of games before I could even stand to watch him try. Anyway, do not underestimate the learning curve with this style of deck!
(Sorry I missed the earlier questions.)
I figured as much. I'm sure I'll get them soon-ish. I just didn't want to drop $40 per card before I got a little bit more familiar with the deck.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
SSG is problematic for a number of reasons. First, it doesn't cast Paladin at all. Second, it doesn't cast Retract at all. Third, it doesn't cast whatever cantrips or dig you are using at all. Finally, it's another do-nothing slot that only works if we already have a Sram (not Paladin) in hand plus the lands to naturally cast Retract. I don't want to build in more dead slots and mini synergies on top of a deck that already depends on drawing an engine plus combo pieces.
Re: testing
I finished my G1 Burn tests against the GP Indy winning list. I used a 7 cantrip Cheeri0s list with 14 lands, 20 equipment, and 1 NR. The end result was a 43% win-rate in G1 over 40 test games: 50% on the play, 35% on the draw. I'll run the G2-G3 matchups next to see how this can improve. Here's my current SB:
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Swan Song
3 Path to Exile
3 Silence
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Bastion Inventor
In lieu of Leyline, I'm trying the "threat-heavy" approach to the BGx matchup. This imitates the BGx mirror strategy of boarding out some degree of discard and trying to go heavier on threats than one-for-one answers. I'm not sold on Grid yet but am also not testing a matchup where it will shine, so I'm leaving those slots as-is for now.
For G2-G3, I'm going to board out my Sleights (3 slots) for the Paths. Eidolon is by far the biggest problem in Burn and I need an answer to it. I expect Burn to add in a little more removal to handle engines, so I'm also going to add Inventor over a NR.
EDIT: Ignore the last past- grapeshot is sorcery speed.