I think this deck now has great potential for taking over Modern and/or forcing a shift in the meta. It's way too consistent. It feels like twin in that, you can pass with two lands up and if the opponent taps out they just lose.
I would like to find room for the fourth Serum Visions, but that will have to wait until I put more games in with the deck. The Swan Song main works similar to how a lot of twin lists ran Dispel, except it catches more things. Dispel was good in twin because games could go long or grindy. Cheeri0s won't have grindy games where you gain advantage via cards, so giving them a swan is acceptable. Spell Pierce is not good enough, as being on the draw means they will be able to pay for bolt, path, push on your turn 3.
Defense Grid is a clever answer to any removal or countermagic, forcing them to be worthless until turn 4. Leyline of Sanctity is necessary for decks with early hand disruption. The other slots are flex for the time being. Wear // Tear hits red Eidolon, Stony Silence, opposing Leylines and Chalice of the Void. Void Snare is the most efficient answer to any of the previously mentioned cards.
I don't think this deck is very fair, especially when taking it to a tournament where most competitors won't know what you are doing until they tap out t3, and then they're dead.
I'd run fetches if you're running Noxious (fetches are also just good in decks that have a turn two WW play). Speaking of white mana, I'd be nervous about playing three Plains with SV, especially if you want to go up to 4 copies. That will lead to some pitched opening hands that would have been good if you had different mana in those slots.
Avoid Grid. It's a major nonbo with Retract and you'll lose engines when Grid bounces. I've run Silence for a similar effect (also stops Decay) and those work quite well.
I think this deck now has great potential for taking over Modern and/or forcing a shift in the meta. It's way too consistent. It feels like twin in that, you can pass with two lands up and if the opponent taps out they just lose.
I would like to find room for the fourth Serum Visions, but that will have to wait until I put more games in with the deck. The Swan Song main works similar to how a lot of twin lists ran Dispel, except it catches more things. Dispel was good in twin because games could go long or grindy. Cheeri0s won't have grindy games where you gain advantage via cards, so giving them a swan is acceptable. Spell Pierce is not good enough, as being on the draw means they will be able to pay for bolt, path, push on your turn 3.
Defense Grid is a clever answer to any removal or countermagic, forcing them to be worthless until turn 4. Leyline of Sanctity is necessary for decks with early hand disruption. The other slots are flex for the time being. Wear // Tear hits red Eidolon, Stony Silence, opposing Leylines and Chalice of the Void. Void Snare is the most efficient answer to any of the previously mentioned cards.
I don't think this deck is very fair, especially when taking it to a tournament where most competitors won't know what you are doing until they tap out t3, and then they're dead.
I'd run fetches if you're running Noxious (fetches are also just good in decks that have a turn two WW play). Speaking of white mana, I'd be nervous about playing three Plains with SV, especially if you want to go up to 4 copies. That will lead to some pitched opening hands that would have been good if you had different mana in those slots.
Avoid Grid. It's a major nonbo with Retract and you'll lose engines when Grid bounces. I've run Silence for a similar effect (also stops Decay) and those work quite well.
I think this deck now has great potential for taking over Modern and/or forcing a shift in the meta. It's way too consistent. It feels like twin in that, you can pass with two lands up and if the opponent taps out they just lose.
I would like to find room for the fourth Serum Visions, but that will have to wait until I put more games in with the deck. The Swan Song main works similar to how a lot of twin lists ran Dispel, except it catches more things. Dispel was good in twin because games could go long or grindy. Cheeri0s won't have grindy games where you gain advantage via cards, so giving them a swan is acceptable. Spell Pierce is not good enough, as being on the draw means they will be able to pay for bolt, path, push on your turn 3.
Defense Grid is a clever answer to any removal or countermagic, forcing them to be worthless until turn 4. Leyline of Sanctity is necessary for decks with early hand disruption. The other slots are flex for the time being. Wear // Tear hits red Eidolon, Stony Silence, opposing Leylines and Chalice of the Void. Void Snare is the most efficient answer to any of the previously mentioned cards.
I don't think this deck is very fair, especially when taking it to a tournament where most competitors won't know what you are doing until they tap out t3, and then they're dead.
I'd run fetches if you're running Noxious (fetches are also just good in decks that have a turn two WW play). Speaking of white mana, I'd be nervous about playing three Plains with SV, especially if you want to go up to 4 copies. That will lead to some pitched opening hands that would have been good if you had different mana in those slots.
Avoid Grid. It's a major nonbo with Retract and you'll lose engines when Grid bounces. I've run Silence for a similar effect (also stops Decay) and those work quite well.
Im pretty sure @shadowgripper is Zac elsik FWIW.
I know who he is. Fetches are still good and Grid is still a nonbo with Retract no matter who is playing the deck.
For the SB, I'm definitely on board with Leylines. I love them in Ad Naus and this deck is similar enough that they also shine here. Some decks get away with 3 but we feel like a 4 Leyline deck. An alternative to Leyline is Noxious, which is more useful in some respects (don't need it in opener, helps the combo), but less useful in others (opens us to GY hate, card disadvantage). Curious to see what people settle on!
Do you think that still holds if we're playing 4 serum visions ?
For the SB, I'm definitely on board with Leylines.
Something that is still mysterious to me, is what do you take out when you side in 4-6 cards ? The deck seems so tight as it is ...
Re: fetches
Yes, because there aren't too many times when you SV, keep a card, and then fetch after. Most of those scenarios are bad sequencing, or the rare case when you play a T2 cantrip, draw/have a fetch, keep cards on top, and then still have another cantrip you need to cast. Those scenarios are rarer than the times you have an NR and put a fetch on top, or need to fetch for red if you're running red cards out of the board. I run Grid, for instance.
Re:leylines
Assuming 8 flex slots split between cantrips, NR, protection, dig, etc., I ditch 4 and keep the SVs. If you only have 7, I would ditch an equipment too.
Re: Silence
Still my favorite protection spell. Stops basically everything and lets you combo on T3. I do like Song for being better against permanents like Chalice and Silence, but don't like that it can't stop Decay and that many decks run redundant removal.
@ktkenshinx, thanks for the feedback on the sideboard cards. I completely skipped the conflict between Defense Grid and Retract. I'll look into getting Silences.
Concerning the mana, I feel like I'll lose more games from being forced to fetch -> shock than I would using my current manabase and hitting that uncommon opening hand with serum + plains only. I will test more and we will see. I'm also not sold on Noxious. I understand it has many uses, including keeping a 1 lander to draw more, or reusing retract, or buying back paladin, or even getting grapeshot for a quick kill. I don't think it's as necessary as it is useful. More testing will tell.
@ktkenshinx, thanks for the feedback on the sideboard cards. I completely skipped the conflict between Defense Grid and Retract. I'll look into getting Silences.
Concerning the mana, I feel like I'll lose more games from being forced to fetch -> shock than I would using my current manabase and hitting that uncommon opening hand with serum + plains only. I will test more and we will see. I'm also not sold on Noxious. I understand it has many uses, including keeping a 1 lander to draw more, or reusing retract, or buying back paladin, or even getting grapeshot for a quick kill. I don't think it's as necessary as it is useful. More testing will tell.
Yeah, I'm only at 1 NR and treat it as engine 8.5, Retract 4.5, and land 15.5, but agree it's probably not critical. It's also much better in real games than goldfishes where I appreciate its recovery power much more.
I can see an argument for dropping 4 fetches in favor of 4 Gemstones. I love GC in Ad Naus so can see it finding a home here too.
so this deck will just be banned big time anyways i guess =(. sadly. i like the deck.
Eventually? Sure, if it shows turn 2-3 wins in major tournaments. But we have at least 6 months before it's considered. Also if they eventually they ban something it's most likely Mox Opal, since it's what allows turn 2-3 kills.
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for Modern banlist discussion outside of the official thread -ktkenshinx-
The mana base seems interesting but is it worth not thinning the deck out to take slightly less damage from the mana base?
I think the thinning element of fetches is generally pretty small and mostly not worth the life loss. Lots of authors and players have written on this, and I encourage people to just Google it to see what others have to say.
That said, I don't run fetches for the thinning. I run them because of the synergy with Noxious Revival (NR then becomes land 14.5/15.5 while also being engine 8.5 and Retract 4.5) and because they are a reliable way to get either U on turn one for cantrips or R on turns 1-3 for some SB cards I'm running: Grid and potentially Wear // Tear. If I stop running Grid in the SB as my Stony Silence trump, and if I ditch Wear/Tear for bounce, I'd definitely switch away from fetches.
This trimmed 1 land for 1 equipment. In the 15 land version, it's +1 Heath or +1 Fountain. The other option is -4 fetches, +4 Gemstone Mine (then with +1 fetch for 15 lands):
+1 Strand goes into the 15 land version. I'm a little nervous about this configuration with my maindeck NR because it's harder to treat NR as a virtual land with only 1-2 fetches. But I also appreciate this version is less painful against something like Burn, which is already a troubled matchup.
There are some things in this thread which are confusing me:
Why are people concerned about stony silence? What games do we actually win by equipping, especially given that none of the decks above are running aggro cards? Is it really hurting the moxes *that* badly?
Why do people run leylines? While I accept that they protect against discard, they are card disadvantage, can't be reliably cast, and don't offer on-board protection. Has anyone done the math on how many games you'll actually draw leyline and paladin in the opening hand?
Re: Gemstone caverns: from past testing I've played many games where I've depleted these lands (cantrip, paladin, cantrip). Noxious revival gets them back, sure, but that's some bad card disadvantage.
Anyway, I've got some initial testing under my belt over the weekend, and thoughts as follows:
The cantrip-heavy build is reliable and fast. However, I can't see how it can also sport protection without becoming too dilute. Basically, I see it as a sideboardless deck. Its success will rise and fall with the amount of removal in the meta. In a removal heavy-meta (and vs opponents who know what they are doing), it should never, or rarely, win. Vs Aggro and combo, it will perform fine.
I am currently focusing on an aggro build. This takes me away from combo so I won't post the list here, as it risks turning into a different deck entirely (improvise midrange with a side of combo), but there's a heck of a lot more testing I need to do first before I settle on a build. All I do know is that bastion inventor and spirit link work wonders vs burn.
Stoney kills Mox which is used to finish off the combo most of the times. That red source might be difficult without the Mox legendary rule using retract.
There are some things in this thread which are confusing me:
Why are people concerned about stony silence? What games do we actually win by equipping, especially given that none of the decks above are running aggro cards? Is it really hurting the moxes *that* badly?
It's impossible to combo out on T2 with Silence active. It shuts down Moxes and prevents us from Retracting Moxes to stay mana neutral. It also really hurts our ability to do a T3 combo unless we untap with the engine already in play.
Why do people run leylines? While I accept that they protect against discard, they are card disadvantage, can't be reliably cast, and don't offer on-board protection. Has anyone done the math on how many games you'll actually draw leyline and paladin in the opening hand?
It's about 15% assuming an otherwise playable hand. I'm not 100% sold on Leyline because we already have mulligan issues, but I do recognize its power in this kind of deck and loved it in the slower/different Ad Nauseam. We do need some kind of answer to discard, so whether that is Leyline, Revival, redundant threats, or something else just remains to be seen.
Re: Gemstone caverns: from past testing I've played many games where I've depleted these lands (cantrip, paladin, cantrip). Noxious revival gets them back, sure, but that's some bad card disadvantage.
Gemstone Mine (not Caverns) is good in Ad Nauseam which has a higher fundamental turn and more drops than we do. It would be very rare to play T1 cantrip, T2 engine, and then T3 cantrip on the one counter Mine; you should have at least one other mana source and maybe two. Depending on how the life totals shake out in testing, I might prefer the life to the mana resilience.
The cantrip-heavy build is reliable and fast. However, I can't see how it can also sport protection without becoming too dilute. Basically, I see it as a sideboardless deck. Its success will rise and fall with the amount of removal in the meta. In a removal heavy-meta (and vs opponents who know what they are doing), it should never, or rarely, win. Vs Aggro and combo, it will perform fine.
I've been testing vs. Burn (about 25 games done, 50/50 overall) and the cantrip version is just fine at handling removal. Eidolon is still a nightmare, but removal is manageable. If the % dips too heavily in later tests, especially against Jund/Abzan, I think we have flex to go -2 cantrips and +2 protection in the main. You have a surprising degree of resilience with 8 engines, 1 NR, and 7 cantrips to dig for more engines, so I'm not worried too much.
Hellow fellow Puresteel players! With the new wave of interested people I have to update the primer. In the last few pages I saw a lot of cardscoming up, that weren't discussed that often before. I feel that Defense Grid and Pact of Negation deserve an entry in our mentionable/playable cards database. Also I'd like to post a streamlined example of the deck for it then to be discussed.
I'm glad the deck has renewed interest, the overarching goal was always to break the deck and abuse Mox to its full potential. I always liked the full combo versions.
It's a shame Probe is not around, else I would be considering Disrupting Shoal again. The deck is greedy enough and from memory, Force of Will wanted a blue count of 22 for 'safe play'? I think it's a little too much to attempt 4x playsets of blue cards plus Shoal. Although it would make Muddle worth considering again but with a severe cost in speed.
Acknowledging the slower speed and tech/manabase issues, would it be worth testing Shoal in a cantrip/Muddle version, along with the increased presence of engine cards?
The deck was always weak to Turn 1 discard, and Chalice, and Shoals card disadvantage could potentially be offset by the increased amount of draw engine creatures. Specifically Discard and 1 mana removal/Spell Snare if you're on the draw*, which is where Shoal really shines (besides tapping out and countering removal).
I agree with your point about Muddle, though, something I had overlooked
Sorry, I wrote the earlier post in a bit of a hurry so I didn't really say what I meant to:
Re: Stony silence:
What I meant to say was that I don't see this as being a particularly bad (good?) hate card, i.e. not one that really hoses us. The equip-blocking makes bolt a smidge better, but is otherwise inconsequential, except in aggro builds. The mana block from mox is a bit of an issue, but doesn't really cause too many problems if you think about it: A T2 Stony Silence means they're tapped out- this means we drop a paladin and draw a bunch of cards. Even if we don't combo off, that can give us fuel and sculpt our hand to go off next turn, not necessarily a loss. Note also this means that they have to remove the paladin in their turn, reducing their T3 plays. If they T3 s.silence, holding up removal, that means we can T2 combo, but also means that they've slowed themselves down when they could've been doing something productive on T3- again, not necessarily a bad outcome. And if you consider that we have up to 3 or 4 lands to play with, this isn't a terrible outcome either. Now to go a step further, consider what boarding in Stony Silence means- what have they taken out? Did they mulligan to get it? both of these can be a positive for us as we die to simpler strategies than stony silence. Put another way: stony silence is among the hate cards that people can throw at us, but is almost certainly at the low-end of the hate list. Compare Eidolon or chalice, which simply shuts us down the moment it hits the board. In any event, I'm not telling people not to board in cards to take out stony silence, since it doesn't require a taxing sideboard (and since the paladin draw engine still works, so we have good odds of actually getting the silver bullet), just curious that so many people are throwing it up as a hate card.
Re: gemstone mine (not caverns!)
In an ideal/theoretical world we won't tap in three times, but in practice it happens with sufficient regularity to be wary of it. At least as much is my experience. Put simply, we want to tap out every turn. Not an issue if we win by T3, which does happen (alot) but not always.
I've been testing vs. Burn (about 25 games done, 50/50 overall) and the cantrip version is just fine at handling removal. Eidolon is still a nightmare, but removal is manageable. If the % dips too heavily in later tests, especially against Jund/Abzan, I think we have flex to go -2 cantrips and +2 protection in the main. You have a surprising degree of resilience with 8 engines, 1 NR, and 7 cantrips to dig for more engines, so I'm not worried too much.
My testing was vs Jund (old builds, not sure what the new fatal push meta will look like, but probably even worse). Personally, I found jund unwinnable. Between discard and removal, there was no way to consistently win. Random wins? Sure, but consistent wins? None. Like 80-20 or some such nonsense. Burn was easily winnable with the right sideboard, although the matchup was much more borderline preboard in the pure cantrip version, I would say less than 50-50, but it depends on the opponent's list, as some burn is actually not necessarily that removal heavy.
I'd run fetches if you're running Noxious (fetches are also just good in decks that have a turn two WW play). Speaking of white mana, I'd be nervous about playing three Plains with SV, especially if you want to go up to 4 copies. That will lead to some pitched opening hands that would have been good if you had different mana in those slots.
Avoid Grid. It's a major nonbo with Retract and you'll lose engines when Grid bounces. I've run Silence for a similar effect (also stops Decay) and those work quite well.
Im pretty sure @shadowgripper is Zac elsik FWIW.
4 Puresteel paladin
4 Sram, senior edificer
1 Ornithopter
Cheeri0s/Artifacts
4 paradise mantle
4 cathar's shield
4 accorder's shield
2 bone saw
4 spidersilk net
1 golem-skin gauntlets
4 Mox opal
Spells
1 noxious revival
3 serum visions
2 repeal
4 retract
1 grapeshot
3 Sigarda's aid
Land
2 flooded strand
4 windswept Heath
3 hallowed fountain
2 sacred foundry
2 plains
1 island
2 leyline of sanctity
4 silence
2 wear// tear
1 molten nursery
1 ghirapur aether grid
1 basilisk collar
2 echoing truth
2 swan song
Thoughts anyone?
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
I know who he is. Fetches are still good and Grid is still a nonbo with Retract no matter who is playing the deck.
For the SB, I'm definitely on board with Leylines. I love them in Ad Naus and this deck is similar enough that they also shine here. Some decks get away with 3 but we feel like a 4 Leyline deck. An alternative to Leyline is Noxious, which is more useful in some respects (don't need it in opener, helps the combo), but less useful in others (opens us to GY hate, card disadvantage). Curious to see what people settle on!
Re: fetches
Yes, because there aren't too many times when you SV, keep a card, and then fetch after. Most of those scenarios are bad sequencing, or the rare case when you play a T2 cantrip, draw/have a fetch, keep cards on top, and then still have another cantrip you need to cast. Those scenarios are rarer than the times you have an NR and put a fetch on top, or need to fetch for red if you're running red cards out of the board. I run Grid, for instance.
Re:leylines
Assuming 8 flex slots split between cantrips, NR, protection, dig, etc., I ditch 4 and keep the SVs. If you only have 7, I would ditch an equipment too.
Re: Silence
Still my favorite protection spell. Stops basically everything and lets you combo on T3. I do like Song for being better against permanents like Chalice and Silence, but don't like that it can't stop Decay and that many decks run redundant removal.
Concerning the mana, I feel like I'll lose more games from being forced to fetch -> shock than I would using my current manabase and hitting that uncommon opening hand with serum + plains only. I will test more and we will see. I'm also not sold on Noxious. I understand it has many uses, including keeping a 1 lander to draw more, or reusing retract, or buying back paladin, or even getting grapeshot for a quick kill. I don't think it's as necessary as it is useful. More testing will tell.
Yeah, I'm only at 1 NR and treat it as engine 8.5, Retract 4.5, and land 15.5, but agree it's probably not critical. It's also much better in real games than goldfishes where I appreciate its recovery power much more.
I can see an argument for dropping 4 fetches in favor of 4 Gemstones. I love GC in Ad Naus so can see it finding a home here too.
Eventually? Sure, if it shows turn 2-3 wins in major tournaments. But we have at least 6 months before it's considered. Also if they eventually they ban something it's most likely Mox Opal, since it's what allows turn 2-3 kills.
I think the thinning element of fetches is generally pretty small and mostly not worth the life loss. Lots of authors and players have written on this, and I encourage people to just Google it to see what others have to say.
That said, I don't run fetches for the thinning. I run them because of the synergy with Noxious Revival (NR then becomes land 14.5/15.5 while also being engine 8.5 and Retract 4.5) and because they are a reliable way to get either U on turn one for cantrips or R on turns 1-3 for some SB cards I'm running: Grid and potentially Wear // Tear. If I stop running Grid in the SB as my Stony Silence trump, and if I ditch Wear/Tear for bounce, I'd definitely switch away from fetches.
For reference, my manabase:
1 Windswept Heath
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Island
This trimmed 1 land for 1 equipment. In the 15 land version, it's +1 Heath or +1 Fountain. The other option is -4 fetches, +4 Gemstone Mine (then with +1 fetch for 15 lands):
1 Flooded Strand
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Island
+1 Strand goes into the 15 land version. I'm a little nervous about this configuration with my maindeck NR because it's harder to treat NR as a virtual land with only 1-2 fetches. But I also appreciate this version is less painful against something like Burn, which is already a troubled matchup.
Why are people concerned about stony silence? What games do we actually win by equipping, especially given that none of the decks above are running aggro cards? Is it really hurting the moxes *that* badly?
Why do people run leylines? While I accept that they protect against discard, they are card disadvantage, can't be reliably cast, and don't offer on-board protection. Has anyone done the math on how many games you'll actually draw leyline and paladin in the opening hand?
Re: Gemstone caverns: from past testing I've played many games where I've depleted these lands (cantrip, paladin, cantrip). Noxious revival gets them back, sure, but that's some bad card disadvantage.
Anyway, I've got some initial testing under my belt over the weekend, and thoughts as follows:
The cantrip-heavy build is reliable and fast. However, I can't see how it can also sport protection without becoming too dilute. Basically, I see it as a sideboardless deck. Its success will rise and fall with the amount of removal in the meta. In a removal heavy-meta (and vs opponents who know what they are doing), it should never, or rarely, win. Vs Aggro and combo, it will perform fine.
I am currently focusing on an aggro build. This takes me away from combo so I won't post the list here, as it risks turning into a different deck entirely (improvise midrange with a side of combo), but there's a heck of a lot more testing I need to do first before I settle on a build. All I do know is that bastion inventor and spirit link work wonders vs burn.
It's impossible to combo out on T2 with Silence active. It shuts down Moxes and prevents us from Retracting Moxes to stay mana neutral. It also really hurts our ability to do a T3 combo unless we untap with the engine already in play.
It's about 15% assuming an otherwise playable hand. I'm not 100% sold on Leyline because we already have mulligan issues, but I do recognize its power in this kind of deck and loved it in the slower/different Ad Nauseam. We do need some kind of answer to discard, so whether that is Leyline, Revival, redundant threats, or something else just remains to be seen.
Gemstone Mine (not Caverns) is good in Ad Nauseam which has a higher fundamental turn and more drops than we do. It would be very rare to play T1 cantrip, T2 engine, and then T3 cantrip on the one counter Mine; you should have at least one other mana source and maybe two. Depending on how the life totals shake out in testing, I might prefer the life to the mana resilience.
I've been testing vs. Burn (about 25 games done, 50/50 overall) and the cantrip version is just fine at handling removal. Eidolon is still a nightmare, but removal is manageable. If the % dips too heavily in later tests, especially against Jund/Abzan, I think we have flex to go -2 cantrips and +2 protection in the main. You have a surprising degree of resilience with 8 engines, 1 NR, and 7 cantrips to dig for more engines, so I'm not worried too much.
Agree with an entry on the Grid nonbo and Pact.
I'll do my part testing, I promise.
It's a shame Probe is not around, else I would be considering Disrupting Shoal again. The deck is greedy enough and from memory, Force of Will wanted a blue count of 22 for 'safe play'? I think it's a little too much to attempt 4x playsets of blue cards plus Shoal. Although it would make Muddle worth considering again but with a severe cost in speed.
Acknowledging the slower speed and tech/manabase issues, would it be worth testing Shoal in a cantrip/Muddle version, along with the increased presence of engine cards?
I agree with your point about Muddle, though, something I had overlooked
*edited
By the way, Bastion Inventor was great in limited this weekend. I could see including it but I rather be using blue to cast Retract for sure.
Re: Stony silence:
What I meant to say was that I don't see this as being a particularly bad (good?) hate card, i.e. not one that really hoses us. The equip-blocking makes bolt a smidge better, but is otherwise inconsequential, except in aggro builds. The mana block from mox is a bit of an issue, but doesn't really cause too many problems if you think about it: A T2 Stony Silence means they're tapped out- this means we drop a paladin and draw a bunch of cards. Even if we don't combo off, that can give us fuel and sculpt our hand to go off next turn, not necessarily a loss. Note also this means that they have to remove the paladin in their turn, reducing their T3 plays. If they T3 s.silence, holding up removal, that means we can T2 combo, but also means that they've slowed themselves down when they could've been doing something productive on T3- again, not necessarily a bad outcome. And if you consider that we have up to 3 or 4 lands to play with, this isn't a terrible outcome either. Now to go a step further, consider what boarding in Stony Silence means- what have they taken out? Did they mulligan to get it? both of these can be a positive for us as we die to simpler strategies than stony silence. Put another way: stony silence is among the hate cards that people can throw at us, but is almost certainly at the low-end of the hate list. Compare Eidolon or chalice, which simply shuts us down the moment it hits the board. In any event, I'm not telling people not to board in cards to take out stony silence, since it doesn't require a taxing sideboard (and since the paladin draw engine still works, so we have good odds of actually getting the silver bullet), just curious that so many people are throwing it up as a hate card.
Re: gemstone mine (not caverns!)
In an ideal/theoretical world we won't tap in three times, but in practice it happens with sufficient regularity to be wary of it. At least as much is my experience. Put simply, we want to tap out every turn. Not an issue if we win by T3, which does happen (alot) but not always.
My testing was vs Jund (old builds, not sure what the new fatal push meta will look like, but probably even worse). Personally, I found jund unwinnable. Between discard and removal, there was no way to consistently win. Random wins? Sure, but consistent wins? None. Like 80-20 or some such nonsense. Burn was easily winnable with the right sideboard, although the matchup was much more borderline preboard in the pure cantrip version, I would say less than 50-50, but it depends on the opponent's list, as some burn is actually not necessarily that removal heavy.