How are you fitting 4 Inventors, some number of Aids, and some number of REs?
I'm not
But seriously, my list is 61 cards and is far from refined, hence why I haven't posted it. The current list is below, but there's no real point in evaluating it at this stage since it's not refined and I've only got about 20 games logged. The only things I won't move on are lands and engines (and even then, I am open to adjusting them, but I am leaving them fixed just for testing and construction purposes), everything else is in flux. I think I just shifted down one inventor for +1 aid. Not sure if I like that change, need more testing.
Re: Aid
I'd only run Aid in a metagame where all but one Tier 1 deck is running (on average) 8+ removal spells. Given that Infect and Dredge run 0 removal, Bant Eldrazi just runs 4, and Affinity runs 3-4, Aid is a dead card in too many matchups. If we get to a Tier 1 where Dredge is gone, Jund stays on top, and a URx deck returns to the mix, then Aid gets a lot better because the card is dead in far fewer matchups.
I'm not sure if this comment was aimed for me, but I agree with the analysis and wouldn't run aid as protection. Personally, I don't run protection at all as protection requires an all-in mindset, which I'm not inclined to. And anyway, there are better protection cards, like silence or hope of ghirapur (if you can christmas it T1). I only use aid because my plan is to have blockers and attackers as my core strategy (mostly blockers). If I ever get around to building a sideboard (long way off) then the list will change again (including moving things to/from SB) to take into account the meta. Vs infect I wouldn't play aggro as infect are better at aggro than we are.
I would very much caution against this kind of analysis and evaluation- firstly, 5 is a very small sample size, and your results could easily swing the next time you play. Second, alot of the decks listed should be easy matchups: affinity can be an almost auto-win since we are faster, they don't support much removal and we can easily have hate cards. Likewise, I wouldn't count any wins where your opponent misplays. The deck is not well known, but this trick only works a few times before people learn to hold up removal.
I'm playing Bloo too. I run 4 SV and 2 Sleights and have found it works really well. Haven't actually lost with the deck yet! I would suggest SV is better in our deck as we are able to filter the next two cards. Open to opposing arguments though
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
Per decision to move Aid the SB, game 1 strategy now is to make the combo as consistent as possible against a non-interactive opponent (it does that unbelievably well!) and using Serum Powder to get a great starting hand. I'm doing some balancing to guard against feel bad corner cases, like having two Grapeshots in a terrible opener that has a Powder. Obviously this style build needs a lot of Cheeri0s work.
I might cut the Noxious and go back to full playsets of SV & SP, but testing this for now.. In this deck Nox really shines, so I'm trying to keep two, but only running three Serum Visions might just be wrong. Moved down to 3 Serum Powder due to space and how dead it is once we're rolling, and added a Muddle (mostly as a fifth Retract).
What turn do you usually win against an uninteractive opponent?
Over the weekend I was running a "less consistent" version with 3 Sigarda's Aid and had a streak of 14 kills no later than T4 in a row. I keep changing the list so it's hard to be scientific. It feels like it kills T2 a lot, but my sense is that in a sophisticated simulation over a very large dataset with my latest list the T2 kill percentage would be under 20% but the dead no later than T4 would be almost 70%. The thing is with this list and a gold-fish opponent, we frequently have get 3-4 creatures down by the end of T4 and it's hard to go wrong at that point.
EDIT: Changed "3-4 creatures down by T4" to "3-4 creatures down by the end of T4". Also note that these numbers are for on the play and go up on the draw, likely to over 80% kill no later than T4.
Well, we'll see what happens when we aren't winning against goldfish, but yes, it (a ban) could happen. Also, there is an extremely rare but possible turn 1 kill, and if that ever happens on camera it's all over.
This deck has been killing on turn 2 for ages, but has never been remotely consistent enough to generate enough complaints to create a groundswell. I'm strongly of the opinion that this deck will be much more consistent, but good enough to become Tier 1? We'll see..
Keep banlist talk out of this thread. The forum rules are very clear that it is not allowed in deck discussion threads.
Re: Probe
This shouldn't be a problem for anyone. GP was almost certainly worse in our deck than any of the other dig options. We just can't use the card like other decks (DSZ for lifeloss, Infect for delve, Infect to know how to sequence pump, etc.). We're all-in, all the time to begin with.
Today's changes hit Infect, Death's Shadow Zoo, Dredge, and Prowess. This means the premier aggro decks should shift to Burn and Affinity: prepare accordingly. Affinity isn't tough for us because it doesn't run enough removal. We should often race Affinity. Burn, however, is a nightmare matchup. Between Burn's probable rise and Push coming to the format, we will either need redundant win conditions in the maindeck and/or additional protection. Aid looks more attractive if everyone is running removal, which I fully expect in the post-update metagame.
If we really want gitaxian probe we still have street wraith. A poor man's substitute (doesn't add to storm count), and in any event almost certainly unnecessary, but I just thought I'd put it out there.
I did some play testing before Monday modern last night and crushed everything in my path, but did drop a game to 8-Rack. I've gotten very good at grouping actions, i.e. I'll say something like, "After the Retract if you aren't going to interact I will play the Mox Opal then play three equipments and draw 6. If that is okay storm count will go from 11 to 15" or somesuch. Games were happening very quickly, less than 3 minutes each in many cases. A seasoned player agreed that we have broken the format. A few players that I may start calling "the disciples" asked if I would be willing to provide group lessons.
Also, I don´t know if someone mentioned it, but with Elixir of Inmortality we can make this combo infiniti, 3 mana available to play and activate, and we can repeat the process with Moxes, Retract and Elixir to play infinite spells, infinite damage, infinite life.
Firstly, welcome to the thread. Always good to see more supporters.
Secondly, elixir of immortality was discussed in the archived thread. Although the activated ability is great, the artifact itself costs 1 mana to play, then a further 2 to activate. Having usable mana is one of the trickiest points of this deck - especially if you intend on going down the combo route. It may be that in a more creature focused deck (like the one you listed) it may be worth while including. Try it out when playtesting and see how you get on!
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I've been doing some testing against actual opponents (still goldfishing to figure out optimal ratios too), and I'm increasingly convinced that Burn is basically unwinnable if they know our deck. Sure, they can misplay, but if they are basically competent we're screwed in G1 and mostly screwed in G2-G3. I am also leaning heavily towards not caring; I think the number of slots and cards we'd have to play with to improve that matchup is excessive.
I've been doing some testing against actual opponents (still goldfishing to figure out optimal ratios too), and I'm increasingly convinced that Burn is basically unwinnable if they know our deck. Sure, they can misplay, but if they are basically competent we're screwed in G1 and mostly screwed in G2-G3. I am also leaning heavily towards not caring; I think the number of slots and cards we'd have to play with to improve that matchup is excessive.
I've been testing a similar 8 cantrip list, Less interactive decks have been great as we are generally faster. However, I've been having trouble with removal heavy decks like jund and grixis, along with burn.
Has anyone else tested removal heavy decks and have a solution? Sigardas aid has been underwhelming and I don't believe is the solution, nor do I like pact.
I think a better answer is an a transformational SB, with geist of st. Traft and the new blue hexproof improvise creature. Anyone else having any thoughts as to how to beat heavy removal?
When I first started playing this deck I trial led with emerge unscathed. The idea was that you could play your engine and hopefully protect it for two turns. Admittedly you have to wait until turn 3 at least to play your engine, but I found that it had mediocre effect.
Obviously this doesn't help against hand targeting and is pretty much a dead card if we get the combo going. Guess it's a toss up - do we risk a dead card (or 4) in the combo if it means we can actually go off!?
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Per decision to move Aid the SB, game 1 strategy now is to make the combo as consistent as possible against a non-interactive opponent (it does that unbelievably well!) and using Serum Powder to get a great starting hand. I'm doing some balancing to guard against feel bad corner cases, like having two Grapeshots in a terrible opener that has a Powder. Obviously this style build needs a lot of Cheeri0s work.
I might cut the Noxious and go back to full playsets of SV & SP, but testing this for now.. In this deck Nox really shines, so I'm trying to keep two, but only running three Serum Visions might just be wrong. Moved down to 3 Serum Powder due to space and how dead it is once we're rolling, and added a Muddle (mostly as a fifth Retract).
I've removed both of the Nox from the main and gone to 8 Serums. I'm not certain how good Cavern is in the current meta, but it's a lot worse with Serum Visions so I'm likely to pull it and go back to 6 fetches. I haven't tested with Bastion Inventor yet. I'm undefeated in test matches against Storm, 8-Rack, UR Prowess, BW Control & RW Zoo. I have not faced Burn. All matches were singleton so this is not a valid dataset, but more like a playtest tournament gauntlet result.
I think with Gitaxian Probe banned we are going to see a lot more Surgical Extraction, which could be rough. Suicide Zoo & Bloo players are both considering it, but at least they don't run Inquisition/Thoughtseize to set it up like the prison and control lists do. I faced a list in the tourney last night (I wasn't playing Cheeri0s in the competitive event) that featured Tasigur and playsets of all three...
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I'm not
But seriously, my list is 61 cards and is far from refined, hence why I haven't posted it. The current list is below, but there's no real point in evaluating it at this stage since it's not refined and I've only got about 20 games logged. The only things I won't move on are lands and engines (and even then, I am open to adjusting them, but I am leaving them fixed just for testing and construction purposes), everything else is in flux. I think I just shifted down one inventor for +1 aid. Not sure if I like that change, need more testing.
3 Bastion Inventor
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
Cheeri0s
3 Cathar's Shield
3 Accorder's Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Bone Saw
4 Mox Opal
3 Retract
3 Sigarda's Aid
3 Reverse Engineer
4 Thoughtcast
1 Grapeshot
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
I'm not sure if this comment was aimed for me, but I agree with the analysis and wouldn't run aid as protection. Personally, I don't run protection at all as protection requires an all-in mindset, which I'm not inclined to. And anyway, there are better protection cards, like silence or hope of ghirapur (if you can christmas it T1). I only use aid because my plan is to have blockers and attackers as my core strategy (mostly blockers). If I ever get around to building a sideboard (long way off) then the list will change again (including moving things to/from SB) to take into account the meta. Vs infect I wouldn't play aggro as infect are better at aggro than we are.
I would very much caution against this kind of analysis and evaluation- firstly, 5 is a very small sample size, and your results could easily swing the next time you play. Second, alot of the decks listed should be easy matchups: affinity can be an almost auto-win since we are faster, they don't support much removal and we can easily have hate cards. Likewise, I wouldn't count any wins where your opponent misplays. The deck is not well known, but this trick only works a few times before people learn to hold up removal.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Creatures: 8
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
Spells: 38
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
2 Kite Shield
4 Retract
3 Grapeshot
1 Muddle the Mixture
2 Noxious Revival
3 Serum Visions
3 Serum Powder
4 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
1 Island
2 Bastion Inventor
3 Goblin Gaveleer
3 Sigarda's Aid
4 Repeal
3 Silence
Per decision to move Aid the SB, game 1 strategy now is to make the combo as consistent as possible against a non-interactive opponent (it does that unbelievably well!) and using Serum Powder to get a great starting hand. I'm doing some balancing to guard against feel bad corner cases, like having two Grapeshots in a terrible opener that has a Powder. Obviously this style build needs a lot of Cheeri0s work.
I might cut the Noxious and go back to full playsets of SV & SP, but testing this for now.. In this deck Nox really shines, so I'm trying to keep two, but only running three Serum Visions might just be wrong. Moved down to 3 Serum Powder due to space and how dead it is once we're rolling, and added a Muddle (mostly as a fifth Retract).
Over the weekend I was running a "less consistent" version with 3 Sigarda's Aid and had a streak of 14 kills no later than T4 in a row. I keep changing the list so it's hard to be scientific. It feels like it kills T2 a lot, but my sense is that in a sophisticated simulation over a very large dataset with my latest list the T2 kill percentage would be under 20% but the dead no later than T4 would be almost 70%. The thing is with this list and a gold-fish opponent, we frequently have get 3-4 creatures down by the end of T4 and it's hard to go wrong at that point.
EDIT: Changed "3-4 creatures down by T4" to "3-4 creatures down by the end of T4". Also note that these numbers are for on the play and go up on the draw, likely to over 80% kill no later than T4.
I'll miss UR Prowess but I was back on Cheeri0s anyway.
Perhaps Retract ?
Re: Probe
This shouldn't be a problem for anyone. GP was almost certainly worse in our deck than any of the other dig options. We just can't use the card like other decks (DSZ for lifeloss, Infect for delve, Infect to know how to sequence pump, etc.). We're all-in, all the time to begin with.
Today's changes hit Infect, Death's Shadow Zoo, Dredge, and Prowess. This means the premier aggro decks should shift to Burn and Affinity: prepare accordingly. Affinity isn't tough for us because it doesn't run enough removal. We should often race Affinity. Burn, however, is a nightmare matchup. Between Burn's probable rise and Push coming to the format, we will either need redundant win conditions in the maindeck and/or additional protection. Aid looks more attractive if everyone is running removal, which I fully expect in the post-update metagame.
Firstly, welcome to the thread. Always good to see more supporters.
Secondly, elixir of immortality was discussed in the archived thread. Although the activated ability is great, the artifact itself costs 1 mana to play, then a further 2 to activate. Having usable mana is one of the trickiest points of this deck - especially if you intend on going down the combo route. It may be that in a more creature focused deck (like the one you listed) it may be worth while including. Try it out when playtesting and see how you get on!
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
I've been testing a similar 8 cantrip list, Less interactive decks have been great as we are generally faster. However, I've been having trouble with removal heavy decks like jund and grixis, along with burn.
Has anyone else tested removal heavy decks and have a solution? Sigardas aid has been underwhelming and I don't believe is the solution, nor do I like pact.
I think a better answer is an a transformational SB, with geist of st. Traft and the new blue hexproof improvise creature. Anyone else having any thoughts as to how to beat heavy removal?
Obviously this doesn't help against hand targeting and is pretty much a dead card if we get the combo going. Guess it's a toss up - do we risk a dead card (or 4) in the combo if it means we can actually go off!?
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU