Cant get around it. It cant be countered by spells so pact is useless. However its shows of as a 1 0f sideboard cards in some lists at most. Abrupt decay is more of a problem as Jund is tied for most popular deck atm in modern.
Im not sure how the deck could fit serum powder , pact and aid in the same list while running enough artifacts and equipments. I feel 20 and then 4 mox opals is optimal and on turn 3 with 2 paladins is a guaranteed win.
In countermagic or Decay-heavy metagames, I just use Silence in the board. That would be inappropriate in this current metagame, but it's good in others where there's more interaction.
For those testing, I'm on 19 equipment and 7 cantrips and loving the ratios. I might ditch a Sleight for an NR, but it's up in the air.
19 equipment and then 4 mox opal? Without aid and pact? Whats your results been like? And id recommend at least 1 NR in the board.
Aid and pact aren't engines and don't help us find engines so I'm not using slots on them. It doesn't make mathematical sense to run them. I've never heard of a combo deck playing protection spells before dig/filters/tutors and I'm not starting now.
I might shave the Sleight for another equipment instead of the NR. Currently tracking fizzles to see if it matters.
NR in the SB is a real possibility depending on the meta.
I'm currently running a 61 card deck (currently 19 equipment, 14 lands, 4 mox), so it'll take me quite some time and number crunching to get it down to 60, but my early thoughts are that reverse engineer is amazing (but the double blue means probably not a four-of), particulalry in conjunction with thoughtcast. Being able to draw 7 cards by turn two is just great (thoughtcast, engineer, thoughtcast off mox). Even without chistmas hands, they have work to do. I don't even care that I'm dropping Cheeri0s and turns to cast the drawspells, I refill so quickly that I combo off anyway.
bastion inventor is great, but has a tendency to get chumped forever by gofys. In my deck, its not coming down t1 or 2 since I'm playing drawspells instead (and if I weren't I probably wouldn't have enough artifacts anyway), so the chumping is real. sigarda's aid has work to do, not just as allowing flash combos, but to reduce equip costs, since an inventor weilding a shield is basically invulnerable to anything in modern. Sideboard options to win combat might come into play here- possibly a toolbox of equipment, such as basilisk collar (or spirit link to also neuter eidolon) vs burn and neurok hoversail vs jund. But artifact hate is a thing, and in any event, I'm a long way off even considering a sideboard.
barricade breaker has been clunky, but your results may vary, as my artifact count is lower due to running reverse engineer, which crowds out other improvise cards.
I wouldn't run enraged giant as the other two improvise creatures seem better, though there are cases where this has work to do, particularly if you put one or two powerful equipment in. This is probably a meta call, if you see fatal push crowding out path to exile, terminate, etc, then this might be better.
Ok so i threw Reverse Engineer Into my current list by cutting stuff and its amazing. Would highly recommend people run 4 or some variation numbers wise it's just too good.
Where does the card shine? You can't really cast it on T1 and it would be hard to cast it T2 if you also cast an engine. You'd also struggle to cast RE on T2 and follow with an engine on the same turn. I can see it being a great recovery and dig tool on T3 or later, but even on T3 you need the Opal to follow RE in order to then cast the engine. Are you having a different experience? And where is it excelling overall?
Interesting. I can see how Reverse Engineer would be useful mid-combo, whereas Serum Visions is nearly useless there for me. However, it just seems a little bit win-more. Serum Visions shines when we mull to a hand missing an engine or needing a land. Mulling to 5 with RE in hand sounds like a nightmare but I will test it.
With Serum Powder I can try to avoid it in openers, but don't always have the option..
One tip with Serum Powder, if I exile a hand of seven then exile a hand of six, if I play an engine turn 2 and have another engine and one equip in hand, I will wait to play the second engine turn 3 before playing the equipment so I can draw two, or hopefully 4 cards from triggers turn 3. This is a little risky but I had a very long string of games gold-fishing today where I went off no later than turn 3, and in several I waited until turn 3 to try to go off for this reason. If I have two equipment on turn 2 I will try to go off then, and in many real matches knowing the matchup is removal heavy I would go for it with only 1 equip as well.
With Reverse Engineer, any thoughts on the significance of the phrase "after you're done activating mana abilities"? ..just a reminder for players to pick carefully?
With Reverse Engineer, any thoughts on the significance of the phrase "after you're done activating mana abilities"? ..just a reminder for players to pick carefully?
yeah they made it smart after the ruling confusion about Chord of Calling.
Reverse Engineer sounds an awful lot like Treasure cruise in our deck. Is it nearly as strong? I have to test it. Drawing 3 cards seems good against decks without counterspells. On a bad day your Paladin draws that much. I can see why you like it more than SV.
I really don't see why RE is better than SV. You can't play it T1 at all, you can't play it T2 and cast an engine, you can't play it T2 to find the second land drop, you can't play it T3 and cast an engine without Opal, and even then you can't play the Retract on T3 after the engine unless you find a second Opal. It's also bad in mulligans where you have fewer artifacts and fewer lands to work with. Seems very win more: it only works when we have lots of mana and resources already.
It's better for recovery and for a longer game for getting more cards. It's basically 2 mana draw 3 in our deck. I've had no problems casting it turn 2 so far and it's good enough to find the engine so you can go off turn 3. I find it better and didn't like serum visions when I tried it. However it might be good alongside serum visions. With a lesser number of RE.
If anything, I'd test 2-3 RE alongside 4 SV. To cast it on T2 you need two lands and three equipment, or one land and 3 equipment plus 1 Opal. You can never cast it during the combo on T2 or T3 unless you get a ***** ton of Opals; at least SV isn't necessarily dead during the combo (even if it's worse than an artifact).
Feedback from testing has been that it is not dead mid-combo, and we can tap creatures for mana and recur Opals with Noxious, so mid-combo isn't so much what I'm worried about, but rather the early turns when Visions shines.
Serum Powder is just so good in a fast combo/centric build that I can't get over it, so I cut a Sigarda's Aid for one. Also, in this style build Noxious is just so good, so I cut a Serum Visions for one since with Powder I get to chose between more hands overall. If I run into a Sigarda's Aid while going off and it's turn 3 or later and I don't already have one down, I can almost always tap a creature to play it for protection before a Retract and still go off that turn. This build is like a dream come true for me!!
It seems pretty good. Sigarda's aid has just become too good now that every deck in modern seems to be running fatal push.
Also has anyone tried defense grid for the control matchups? I feel like it would help the delver matchups a lot.
Grid is decent against control, but there isn't much control in Modern right now. I'd avoid it until the metagame shifts; just jam threats and they can't answer everything.
Having tested Aid, I really don't see why it is so good. It's not an engine, it doesn't find engines, and it doesn't improve our draw-rate. It just protects engines, which means we only want to draw it and play it when we already have an engine in play or in hand. We shouldn't be including protection spells until our engines, fuel, and dig is accounted for. Ad Nauseam gets away with 3-4 Pacts in the maindeck because its combo is much more compact than ours, and even then, it still includes 7-8 cantrips beforehand. Storm doesn't include protection at all, despite its engine occupying as many slots as ours (8 for both) and despite that deck's fuel serving double-duty on the combo and digging.
At best, I'd put Aid in the SB in certain metagames. At worst, I'd stick with Pacts or Dispels for protection and leave the Aids at home. It just requires too much luck for a good setup.
It allows you to go over the top of a removal spell which i useful and gives you time to find another paladin and try again. Its worked extremely well for me and with tragic slip going to be everywhere its going to be very important to make sure we get the draw off it. I think aid is going to be more important now that tragic slip is in modern.
If the meta shifts to tons of Push decks, Aid is great in the board. It's horrible in the main though in a metagame with lots of Dredge, Death's Shadow Zoo, and Infect (with 0 removal spells worth mentioning), as well as Affinity, Tron, and Bant Eldrazi (that run no more than 4 maindecked). Aid is literally a dead card in the Dredge/DSZ/Infect matchups, and is mostly dead in the other three as well. Combos like this can't run totally dead cards.
Pact worked very well due to it being free to cast and its amazing if were guaranteed to go off that turn. I think a careful balance of protection and RE is needed, when i threw some REs in the deck got far more consistent. With some mashup of RE, Pact and Aid it will get stronger as a whole.
Assume you run 15 lands, 8 engines, and 4 Pacts. By T2, the odds of seeing 2-3 lands, 1-2 engines, 1-2 Pact, and 2-4 other cards is a measly 13%. If we add a half dozen other corner-case hands that are semi-playable, we can push that to 15%. Those are not good odds at all, especially when we consider mulligans and this deck's mulligan chance. I'll pass on all maindeck protection in all but the most hostile metagame.
Ad Nauseams Combo is compact. But mine is as well with running only 1 win con mainboard which i find much better and gives me room for other cards such as RE to dig for another paladin or whatever is needed.
Our combo is 4 Opal, 8 engine, 4 Retract, 2 Grapeshot (or 1 NR/1GS), and somewhere between 18-24 equipment. That's 36-42 slots. Add 14-16 slots for lands and we automatically have 50-58 slots accounted for. That leaves 2 flex slots guaranteed with 0-8 flex slots in the air. I run 15 lands and 19 equipment, so I only have 8 flex slots.
If you're using the 15 land/19 artifact build, you have 8 slots to split between dig and protection. I'm running 4 SV/4 Sleight, but I can see arguments to go as low as 6 dig with maybe 2 slots open for whatever. Those 2 slots could be Pacts or Aids, which protect our combo but increase variance. I'd rather fill every slot, all 8, with variance reducers. We can debate the merits of RE vs. SV vs. Sleight vs. GP vs. TS etc., but there is no good reason to put anything other than variance reducers in those 8 slots.
I'll just add some context to my original post where I said reverse engineer was a good card (note: in my opinion, not as a 4-of). I was running alongside 4 bastion inventor. No need to combo off on T2 when you can use 4/4 hexproofers to stabilise the board and combo later. Also why I haven't posted a decklist- getting exactly the right amount of improvise cards so that they don't cannibalise each other will take lots of testing.
This also covers why I'm running sigarda's aid- aid is necessary to equip accorder's shield to the bastion inventor since I don't want to pay 3-cost equip costs but I really want that vigilance. Flash is just gravy.
I'll just add some context to my original post where I said reverse engineer was a good card (note: in my opinion, not as a 4-of). I was running alongside 4 bastion inventor. No need to combo off on T2 when you can use 4/4 hexproofers to stabilise the board and combo later. Also why I haven't posted a decklist- getting exactly the right amount of improvise cards so that they don't cannibalise each other will take lots of testing.
This also covers why I'm running sigarda's aid- aid is necessary to equip accorder's shield to the bastion inventor since I don't want to pay 3-cost equip costs but I really want that vigilance. Flash is just gravy.
How are you fitting 4 Inventors, some number of Aids, and some number of REs?
Re: Aid
I'd only run Aid in a metagame where all but one Tier 1 deck is running (on average) 8+ removal spells. Given that Infect and Dredge run 0 removal, Bant Eldrazi just runs 4, and Affinity runs 3-4, Aid is a dead card in too many matchups. If we get to a Tier 1 where Dredge is gone, Jund stays on top, and a URx deck returns to the mix, then Aid gets a lot better because the card is dead in far fewer matchups.
In previous decks a 1-of basilisk collar doesn't really slow the combo that much, but without a playset drawing early on is statistically less likely. If you're running sigarda's aid though, playing it with flash and equipping for free would be nice.
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Re: Aid
I'd only run Aid in a metagame where all but one Tier 1 deck is running (on average) 8+ removal spells. Given that Infect and Dredge run 0 removal, Bant Eldrazi just runs 4, and Affinity runs 3-4, Aid is a dead card in too many matchups. If we get to a Tier 1 where Dredge is gone, Jund stays on top, and a URx deck returns to the mix, then Aid gets a lot better because the card is dead in far fewer matchups.
You won me over. I'm moving Aid to the side and replacing with SR & Nox. I tested against Abzan, or bad Jund, as he called it today, and did well. I'm sticking with Serum Powder.
In the current meta I've switched fron Nahiri and Lantern to Suicide Bloo. I noticed a list recently with 1 Serum Visions & 4 Sleight did well where most were running the opposite. This puts a premium on the next card drawn, which may be brilliant for that deck. For ours SV is better I think. Thoughts?
In countermagic or Decay-heavy metagames, I just use Silence in the board. That would be inappropriate in this current metagame, but it's good in others where there's more interaction.
For those testing, I'm on 19 equipment and 7 cantrips and loving the ratios. I might ditch a Sleight for an NR, but it's up in the air.
Aid and pact aren't engines and don't help us find engines so I'm not using slots on them. It doesn't make mathematical sense to run them. I've never heard of a combo deck playing protection spells before dig/filters/tutors and I'm not starting now.
I might shave the Sleight for another equipment instead of the NR. Currently tracking fizzles to see if it matters.
NR in the SB is a real possibility depending on the meta.
bastion inventor is great, but has a tendency to get chumped forever by gofys. In my deck, its not coming down t1 or 2 since I'm playing drawspells instead (and if I weren't I probably wouldn't have enough artifacts anyway), so the chumping is real. sigarda's aid has work to do, not just as allowing flash combos, but to reduce equip costs, since an inventor weilding a shield is basically invulnerable to anything in modern. Sideboard options to win combat might come into play here- possibly a toolbox of equipment, such as basilisk collar (or spirit link to also neuter eidolon) vs burn and neurok hoversail vs jund. But artifact hate is a thing, and in any event, I'm a long way off even considering a sideboard.
barricade breaker has been clunky, but your results may vary, as my artifact count is lower due to running reverse engineer, which crowds out other improvise cards.
I wouldn't run enraged giant as the other two improvise creatures seem better, though there are cases where this has work to do, particularly if you put one or two powerful equipment in. This is probably a meta call, if you see fatal push crowding out path to exile, terminate, etc, then this might be better.
Where does the card shine? You can't really cast it on T1 and it would be hard to cast it T2 if you also cast an engine. You'd also struggle to cast RE on T2 and follow with an engine on the same turn. I can see it being a great recovery and dig tool on T3 or later, but even on T3 you need the Opal to follow RE in order to then cast the engine. Are you having a different experience? And where is it excelling overall?
With Serum Powder I can try to avoid it in openers, but don't always have the option..
One tip with Serum Powder, if I exile a hand of seven then exile a hand of six, if I play an engine turn 2 and have another engine and one equip in hand, I will wait to play the second engine turn 3 before playing the equipment so I can draw two, or hopefully 4 cards from triggers turn 3. This is a little risky but I had a very long string of games gold-fishing today where I went off no later than turn 3, and in several I waited until turn 3 to try to go off for this reason. If I have two equipment on turn 2 I will try to go off then, and in many real matches knowing the matchup is removal heavy I would go for it with only 1 equip as well.
Don't suppose anyone has a playset of pact of negation going spare?
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yeah they made it smart after the ruling confusion about Chord of Calling.
I really don't see why RE is better than SV. You can't play it T1 at all, you can't play it T2 and cast an engine, you can't play it T2 to find the second land drop, you can't play it T3 and cast an engine without Opal, and even then you can't play the Retract on T3 after the engine unless you find a second Opal. It's also bad in mulligans where you have fewer artifacts and fewer lands to work with. Seems very win more: it only works when we have lots of mana and resources already.
If anything, I'd test 2-3 RE alongside 4 SV. To cast it on T2 you need two lands and three equipment, or one land and 3 equipment plus 1 Opal. You can never cast it during the combo on T2 or T3 unless you get a ***** ton of Opals; at least SV isn't necessarily dead during the combo (even if it's worse than an artifact).
My latest:
Creatures: 8
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
Spells: 38
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
2 Kite Shield
4 Retract
2 Grapeshot
2 Sigarda's Aid
2 Noxious Revival
2 Serum Visions
4 Serum Powder
4 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
1 Island
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Noxious Revival
4 Repeal
4 Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Serum Powder is just so good in a fast combo/centric build that I can't get over it, so I cut a Sigarda's Aid for one. Also, in this style build Noxious is just so good, so I cut a Serum Visions for one since with Powder I get to chose between more hands overall. If I run into a Sigarda's Aid while going off and it's turn 3 or later and I don't already have one down, I can almost always tap a creature to play it for protection before a Retract and still go off that turn. This build is like a dream come true for me!!
Grid is decent against control, but there isn't much control in Modern right now. I'd avoid it until the metagame shifts; just jam threats and they can't answer everything.
Having tested Aid, I really don't see why it is so good. It's not an engine, it doesn't find engines, and it doesn't improve our draw-rate. It just protects engines, which means we only want to draw it and play it when we already have an engine in play or in hand. We shouldn't be including protection spells until our engines, fuel, and dig is accounted for. Ad Nauseam gets away with 3-4 Pacts in the maindeck because its combo is much more compact than ours, and even then, it still includes 7-8 cantrips beforehand. Storm doesn't include protection at all, despite its engine occupying as many slots as ours (8 for both) and despite that deck's fuel serving double-duty on the combo and digging.
At best, I'd put Aid in the SB in certain metagames. At worst, I'd stick with Pacts or Dispels for protection and leave the Aids at home. It just requires too much luck for a good setup.
I'm assuming you mean Fatal Push and not Tragic Slip.
If the meta shifts to tons of Push decks, Aid is great in the board. It's horrible in the main though in a metagame with lots of Dredge, Death's Shadow Zoo, and Infect (with 0 removal spells worth mentioning), as well as Affinity, Tron, and Bant Eldrazi (that run no more than 4 maindecked). Aid is literally a dead card in the Dredge/DSZ/Infect matchups, and is mostly dead in the other three as well. Combos like this can't run totally dead cards.
Assume you run 15 lands, 8 engines, and 4 Pacts. By T2, the odds of seeing 2-3 lands, 1-2 engines, 1-2 Pact, and 2-4 other cards is a measly 13%. If we add a half dozen other corner-case hands that are semi-playable, we can push that to 15%. Those are not good odds at all, especially when we consider mulligans and this deck's mulligan chance. I'll pass on all maindeck protection in all but the most hostile metagame.
Our combo is 4 Opal, 8 engine, 4 Retract, 2 Grapeshot (or 1 NR/1GS), and somewhere between 18-24 equipment. That's 36-42 slots. Add 14-16 slots for lands and we automatically have 50-58 slots accounted for. That leaves 2 flex slots guaranteed with 0-8 flex slots in the air. I run 15 lands and 19 equipment, so I only have 8 flex slots.
If you're using the 15 land/19 artifact build, you have 8 slots to split between dig and protection. I'm running 4 SV/4 Sleight, but I can see arguments to go as low as 6 dig with maybe 2 slots open for whatever. Those 2 slots could be Pacts or Aids, which protect our combo but increase variance. I'd rather fill every slot, all 8, with variance reducers. We can debate the merits of RE vs. SV vs. Sleight vs. GP vs. TS etc., but there is no good reason to put anything other than variance reducers in those 8 slots.
This also covers why I'm running sigarda's aid- aid is necessary to equip accorder's shield to the bastion inventor since I don't want to pay 3-cost equip costs but I really want that vigilance. Flash is just gravy.
How are you fitting 4 Inventors, some number of Aids, and some number of REs?
Re: Aid
I'd only run Aid in a metagame where all but one Tier 1 deck is running (on average) 8+ removal spells. Given that Infect and Dredge run 0 removal, Bant Eldrazi just runs 4, and Affinity runs 3-4, Aid is a dead card in too many matchups. If we get to a Tier 1 where Dredge is gone, Jund stays on top, and a URx deck returns to the mix, then Aid gets a lot better because the card is dead in far fewer matchups.
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Why so Bloo? RU
You won me over. I'm moving Aid to the side and replacing with SR & Nox. I tested against Abzan, or bad Jund, as he called it today, and did well. I'm sticking with Serum Powder.
Edit: It was Sultai, not Abzan.