Whir of invention made me think that we could tutor up Aetherflux reservoir as a wincon, or simply lotus bloom for more storm/mana fixing if running expensive cards like paradoxical outcome. However since Sram's reveal, I think there is just no need to bother jumping through hoops anymore. Freejam I could see as a one-or-two-of in a more aggro build, particularly since it is bolt/abrupt decay proof, but again, I doubt it is necessary anymore if we can just crutch on the combo.
For people who aren't entirely sure if Sram is as hyped as we're making it: he's not broken on his own, at least not any more than Paladin (who I would consider pretty broken already). What's broken is having 8 of this effect available. The reason it's broken is that it just cold skyrockets the odds of having a Turn 2 combo. When you off turn 2, you rarely cast a second Paladin anyway, usually you can only spare the single mana for Retract. So Legendary isn't important for the turn 2 combo, which as I said is now much more likely.
AND it gives very solid resiliency against removal, our biggest weakness.
Essentially I you go back to the original thread, you'll see pages and pages of debate about Spoils, Plunge, Vedalkan Archmage, Riddlesmith....having a second Paladin obsoletes all of that. Paladin is a powerful, fast engine with a weakness to removal, but the raw speed of having 8 is insane.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
How playable is this without mox opal? I've been eyeing the deck for a while, but, like inksoul, Sram makes me really want to give it a try. I'd like to skip on the opals, at least until the ban list update to make sure it's not a wasted investment, but in the off chance that they do get banned, is this still viable?
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Hello fellow Cheeri0s warriors, looks like a sweet way to commence the New Year! I actually got an Opal over the holidays, so I'm getting ever closer to fully building...
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Hey guys! After my (very successful, but boring) foray into tier 1 with Titan-Breach, Sram, Senior Edificer has ordered my return to Cheeri0s! I'm thinking that with him I might fire my Goblin Gaveleers and maybe some number of Sigarda's Aids. I really haven't liked either of those cards the few times I've played them. I want to go back to my grindy, redundant, yet fast builds. My Noxious Revivals and Ghirapur Æther Grids miss me. Does anyone want to tell me why this is a terrible plan and/or brew back in this direction with me?
Sram is good, basically a legendary Paladin, though he can't equip for free, which is relevant with Paradise Mantle/Ornithopter shenanigans as well as failed combo turns where you just want to suit up your guys to block with or dodge Lightning Bolts. We also don't want to dilute our combo too much, so I think running too many will cause a fizzle. Yes, with only six we're less likely to go off on turn 2, but turn 2 combos generally need a really good string of draws and I don't want to cut 0s to find room. If I really have to, I guess I could cut 2, but I think 16 is the bare minimum we can run if we want to be combo-centric.
Monastery Mentor is still one of my least favorite cards in this deck, but I think one is needed as a better threat against removal heavy decks and as a way to beat maindeck Leyline of Sanctity.
Ghirapur Æther Grid serves two purposes. Obviously it's a win condition, but it's also a removal spell. Tapping two equipment to kill a Spirit of the Labyrinth is the best feeling in the world. It also lets us grind out wins without having any creatures in play, which is pretty key in the more grindy match ups.
Sigarda's Aid competes with Mentor for the least favorite card award. It's good against removal decks, though I'm not sure it's worth playing just the one, but I really don't want to run more than that because it doesn't get better in multiples and seriously, it really just isn't that good. It is much better in the Goblin Gaveleer versions, but as I said, I don't like Gaveleer very much.
Repeal is the best card in the entire deck. It can simply cycle if you use it on a Mox Opal, which is mana-neutral and increases storm and triggers Mentor. If you have the mana, you can use it to pick up a cheeri0 and draw a card, then replay the 0 for more storm and Paladin/Sram/Mentor triggers. If you have even more mana you can use it to save a Paladin from a removal spell in a pinch. Finally, it's just a bounce spell to use on that creature that's about to kill you or preventing you from going off.
Noxious Revival is way better than most people seem to think.
It can stick a fetch on top of your library if you want to draw a land.
It can stick a killed or discarded Paladin on top.
It can stick a Retract on top just before playing your last 0 during a combo turn.
You can use it to dodge discard, let's say you have a Paladin in the yard and your opponent casts Thoughtseize. You can Revival your Paladin in response to stick it back on top, safe from any more discard, which you know they have because they always have more.
You can cast it in response to removal on your Mentor to get an extra trigger without spending any mana.
As for Monastery Mentor, it's not my only alt win con. Æther Grid does a great job in the removal heavy matchups. Mentor is there mostly as a third win con and a way to beat a Leyline without casting Repeal for X=4. That said, I could be convinced to play a second one, though I don't like the idea of going down a "mana source" (Ornithopter) for it. 13 lands is already so few, I actually kind of want to find room for a 14th.
Personally I'm a fan of the storm build, with a couple alternate win cons thrown in. Goblin Gaveleer always just seems to either die or be too slow, though I haven't played with him much.
I like this deck !
(I'm already playing Aetherstorm in Standard so I was easy to convince)
I'll probably be playing a budget version of this, though, since the Mox Opal is a tad expensive... Or do you think it's a safe investment ? Someone was talking about a banlist in this thread.
A few remarks :
- Don't you think a few Hurkyl's Recall (1, 2, or even 3) are mandatory in case we don't find a Retract ?
- I don't see the use of Ornithopters since Mass Hysteria already transforms our Paladin into mana dorks...
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
Hey Semoreh, welcome to the thread! The deck doesn't really get to combo quickly without Mox Opal. It lets us cast etract basically for free, and eventually we can legend rule a couple to get to Grapeshot mana. Ornithopter sort of kind of acts as an extra mox, if you have a Paladin and Mass Hysteria you can play Ornithopter and equip it with Paradise Mantle to tap it for mana, then bounce it with Retract, rinse, lather, and repeat. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Hurkyl's Recall, it's usually a 2 cost Retract, and I think 4 is enough.
All that said, if you wanted to try a budget version of this deck sans Mox Opal, I'd play a single copy of Recall, and probably 3 or even 4 Ornithopters. The single copy of Hurkyl's Recall can be tutored up with Muddle the Mixture, which I think is generally too slow, but in an Opal-less build you're going to be slow anyway. With Opal we can safely go off on turn 2, but without it you really need to wait till you hit, I don't know, 4 mana, so you can cast two Retracts before you find the 'thopter-mantle-hysteria combo. To facilitate this, I'd run Serum Visions, Muddle the Mixture (transmutes for Paladin or Hurkyl's) and probably 19 or 20 lands. You're going to play more like a traditional storm deck; spend the first few turns building up mana while sculpting your hand with cantrips, then have a single explosive turn. If you wanted, you could even play one or two Paradoxical Outcomes, since the four mana would actually be castable.
A second option would be to build a less combo-centric Goblin Gaveleer version. In that your goal is to play a Gaveleer, suit it up, and attack. Think of it like a Bogles deck, but instead of of Kor Spiritdancer and Gladecover Scout you get half of Spiritdancer on one card (Gaveleer) and the other half on a second card (Puresteel/Sram). I personally am not a fan of this build, but that's just me. Others have liked it, I believe.
Serenechaos, I see a couple of issues with your list. First, while I love Noxious Revival, I think 4 is too many. Remember, it almost always costs you 2 life and it puts you down a card. Secondly, you mana has a few issues. Cavern of Souls is not a very good land in this deck. It only taps for colored mana when you're casting a creature of the correct type, so it's useless for your cantrips and Retracts. Also, while Puresteel Paladin and Monastery Mentor share a creature type (human), as do Mentor and Erayo, Soratami Ascendant (monk), Sram, Senior Edificer shares none with any of them. We want to be able to cast Puresteel and Sram off any two lands, so anything that doesn't tap for white is bad, especially in fast builds. An other problem is you only have 1 basic Plains. That means you can't cast a Paladin through a Blood Moon without using Mox Opal or Paradise Mantle. I would suggest cutting the Caverns for a second Plains and maybe three Industrial Towers (new land from Aether Revolt), Gemstone Mines, or some combination of the two. An Ornithopter or two wouldn't be a bad idea either, if you throw in a Mass Hysteria. Finally, you have too many cheeri0s. I don't think 16-18 is the norm. So, I'd cut 3 cheeri0s, either Sigil of Distinction and 2 Kite Shield or just 3 Kite Shield as well as the Caverns and 2 Noxious Revivals to add in Plains, 3 Gemstone Mine/Industrial Tower, Mass Hysteria, 2 Ornithopter, Monastery Mentor, and Sigarda's Aid, maybe cutting the fourth Sram for a second Aid.
Izzetmage, I think you aswell could benefit from adding a second basic Plains to your list. Also, if you can afford it, it's probably better to max Hallowed Fountain before playing fastlands and painlands, and same as Serenechaos, you're all in on the Paladin/Sram and soft to removal without Sigarda's Aid or Monastery Mentor.
"Inspirational Monuments" 3
Artifact (Rare)
Non-artifact spells you cast have improvise.
(Your artifacts can help cast non-artifact spells.
Each artifact you tap after you're done activating mana abilities pays for 1.)
Well then. Not only is there another functional Puresteel Paladin but now there's a 3 mana artifact that turns all of your equipment's into colorless mana rocks for non-artifact spells. Extra wincon as Secure the Wastes/White Sun's Zenith? Just playout, bounce, etc and float mana into 40 tokens. Or bomb an Eldrazi on board. This deck is going to get bumped up a little.
Things I will drop are outcomes to 2 but never drop sigardas aid and mentors. Against heavy remouval matchups it is the only way to win.
We are like minded here. I hate to go below three Sigarda's Aid. They guys I did extensive playtesting with would look down and sigh when I played turn 1.
Do What you have to do. Do you want them for coolness factor or because of lowest price?
For the lowest price, obviously. What's the point in asking about a "coolness factor" (whatever that is. This is MTG, we're not turning cool again any time soon ;p)?
Some people like foreign cards and value them over their native language ones. Korean and Russian and maybe Japanese tend to be worth more than English while other languages tend to be worth less.
I mean, it's not like any of us have spent good chunks of money foiling parts of this deck *chough* *chough*
You can't float mana with Improvise, think Convoke.
Those cards don't do all that much for us, they seem pretty win-more. Also, WWW is really hard to get on your combo turn.
Oh true, forgot. You can still get 9-10 artifacts on board and improvise for a fattie though, and obviously Wx is much more manageable, I just felt like WSZ was worth the honorable mention. Besides using it as a finisher, it also just generally adds mana to the deck.
This deck doesn't work without Mox Opal. If you really want to, you can play a non-combo version like this which wins with Myth Realized and Monastery Mentor instead of Grapeshot. You won't get any T2/T3 kills with it though, which is kind of the point of playing the deck.
Izzetmage, I think you aswell could benefit from adding a second basic Plains to your list. Also, if you can afford it, it's probably better to max Hallowed Fountain before playing fastlands and painlands, and same as Serenechaos, you're all in on the Paladin/Sram and soft to removal without Sigarda's Aid or Monastery Mentor.
AND it gives very solid resiliency against removal, our biggest weakness.
Essentially I you go back to the original thread, you'll see pages and pages of debate about Spoils, Plunge, Vedalkan Archmage, Riddlesmith....having a second Paladin obsoletes all of that. Paladin is a powerful, fast engine with a weakness to removal, but the raw speed of having 8 is insane.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I'm sold on the increased odds of the T2 kill, so just completed my playset of Serum Powder, increasing them even further.
EDIT: Preliminary Decklist (with terrible sideboard)
4 Puresteel Paladin
2 Sram, Senior Edificer
1 Monastery Mentor
2 Ornithopter
Cheeri0s (18)
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
2 Kite Shield
Spells (13)
1 Grapeshot
4 Repeal
4 Retract
2 Noxious Revival
2 Serum Visions
1 Ghirapur Æther Grid
1 Sigarda's Aid
1 Mass Hysteria
Mana (17)
4 Mox Opal
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Sigarda's Aid
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Dispatch
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wear // Tear
Sram is good, basically a legendary Paladin, though he can't equip for free, which is relevant with Paradise Mantle/Ornithopter shenanigans as well as failed combo turns where you just want to suit up your guys to block with or dodge Lightning Bolts. We also don't want to dilute our combo too much, so I think running too many will cause a fizzle. Yes, with only six we're less likely to go off on turn 2, but turn 2 combos generally need a really good string of draws and I don't want to cut 0s to find room. If I really have to, I guess I could cut 2, but I think 16 is the bare minimum we can run if we want to be combo-centric.
Monastery Mentor is still one of my least favorite cards in this deck, but I think one is needed as a better threat against removal heavy decks and as a way to beat maindeck Leyline of Sanctity.
Mass Hysteria is needed for the Paradise Mantle/Ornithopter shenanigans as well as the Mentor kill. This is basically the only way we can go positive on mana on a Retract.
Ghirapur Æther Grid serves two purposes. Obviously it's a win condition, but it's also a removal spell. Tapping two equipment to kill a Spirit of the Labyrinth is the best feeling in the world. It also lets us grind out wins without having any creatures in play, which is pretty key in the more grindy match ups.
Sigarda's Aid competes with Mentor for the least favorite card award. It's good against removal decks, though I'm not sure it's worth playing just the one, but I really don't want to run more than that because it doesn't get better in multiples and seriously, it really just isn't that good. It is much better in the Goblin Gaveleer versions, but as I said, I don't like Gaveleer very much.
Repeal is the best card in the entire deck. It can simply cycle if you use it on a Mox Opal, which is mana-neutral and increases storm and triggers Mentor. If you have the mana, you can use it to pick up a cheeri0 and draw a card, then replay the 0 for more storm and Paladin/Sram/Mentor triggers. If you have even more mana you can use it to save a Paladin from a removal spell in a pinch. Finally, it's just a bounce spell to use on that creature that's about to kill you or preventing you from going off.
Noxious Revival is way better than most people seem to think.
As for Monastery Mentor, it's not my only alt win con. Æther Grid does a great job in the removal heavy matchups. Mentor is there mostly as a third win con and a way to beat a Leyline without casting Repeal for X=4. That said, I could be convinced to play a second one, though I don't like the idea of going down a "mana source" (Ornithopter) for it. 13 lands is already so few, I actually kind of want to find room for a 14th.
I guess I could cut the 2 Serum Visions and 1 Ornithopter for 1 each of Sigarda's Aid, Goblin Gaveleer, and Sram, Senior Edificer, unless you really think I should be playing 2 Mentor, in which case I wouldn't add the Gaveleer.
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
2 Kite Shield
4 Bone Saw
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Mox Opal
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Retract
2 Grapeshot
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Path to Exile
4 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Monastery Mentor
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Muddle the Mixture OR 4 Repeal
4 Retract
4 Noxious Revival
2 Grapeshot
4 Kite Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
1 Sigil of Distinction
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
1 Plains
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
(I'm already playing Aetherstorm in Standard so I was easy to convince)
I'll probably be playing a budget version of this, though, since the Mox Opal is a tad expensive... Or do you think it's a safe investment ? Someone was talking about a banlist in this thread.
A few remarks :
- Don't you think a few Hurkyl's Recall (1, 2, or even 3) are mandatory in case we don't find a Retract ?
- I don't see the use of Ornithopters since Mass Hysteria already transforms our Paladin into mana dorks...
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
All that said, if you wanted to try a budget version of this deck sans Mox Opal, I'd play a single copy of Recall, and probably 3 or even 4 Ornithopters. The single copy of Hurkyl's Recall can be tutored up with Muddle the Mixture, which I think is generally too slow, but in an Opal-less build you're going to be slow anyway. With Opal we can safely go off on turn 2, but without it you really need to wait till you hit, I don't know, 4 mana, so you can cast two Retracts before you find the 'thopter-mantle-hysteria combo. To facilitate this, I'd run Serum Visions, Muddle the Mixture (transmutes for Paladin or Hurkyl's) and probably 19 or 20 lands. You're going to play more like a traditional storm deck; spend the first few turns building up mana while sculpting your hand with cantrips, then have a single explosive turn. If you wanted, you could even play one or two Paradoxical Outcomes, since the four mana would actually be castable.
A second option would be to build a less combo-centric Goblin Gaveleer version. In that your goal is to play a Gaveleer, suit it up, and attack. Think of it like a Bogles deck, but instead of of Kor Spiritdancer and Gladecover Scout you get half of Spiritdancer on one card (Gaveleer) and the other half on a second card (Puresteel/Sram). I personally am not a fan of this build, but that's just me. Others have liked it, I believe.
Serenechaos, I see a couple of issues with your list. First, while I love Noxious Revival, I think 4 is too many. Remember, it almost always costs you 2 life and it puts you down a card. Secondly, you mana has a few issues. Cavern of Souls is not a very good land in this deck. It only taps for colored mana when you're casting a creature of the correct type, so it's useless for your cantrips and Retracts. Also, while Puresteel Paladin and Monastery Mentor share a creature type (human), as do Mentor and Erayo, Soratami Ascendant (monk), Sram, Senior Edificer shares none with any of them. We want to be able to cast Puresteel and Sram off any two lands, so anything that doesn't tap for white is bad, especially in fast builds. An other problem is you only have 1 basic Plains. That means you can't cast a Paladin through a Blood Moon without using Mox Opal or Paradise Mantle. I would suggest cutting the Caverns for a second Plains and maybe three Industrial Towers (new land from Aether Revolt), Gemstone Mines, or some combination of the two. An Ornithopter or two wouldn't be a bad idea either, if you throw in a Mass Hysteria. Finally, you have too many cheeri0s. I don't think 16-18 is the norm. So, I'd cut 3 cheeri0s, either Sigil of Distinction and 2 Kite Shield or just 3 Kite Shield as well as the Caverns and 2 Noxious Revivals to add in Plains, 3 Gemstone Mine/Industrial Tower, Mass Hysteria, 2 Ornithopter, Monastery Mentor, and Sigarda's Aid, maybe cutting the fourth Sram for a second Aid.
Izzetmage, I think you aswell could benefit from adding a second basic Plains to your list. Also, if you can afford it, it's probably better to max Hallowed Fountain before playing fastlands and painlands, and same as Serenechaos, you're all in on the Paladin/Sram and soft to removal without Sigarda's Aid or Monastery Mentor.
Artifact (Rare)
Non-artifact spells you cast have improvise.
(Your artifacts can help cast non-artifact spells.
Each artifact you tap after you're done activating mana abilities pays for 1.)
Well then. Not only is there another functional Puresteel Paladin but now there's a 3 mana artifact that turns all of your equipment's into colorless mana rocks for non-artifact spells. Extra wincon as Secure the Wastes/White Sun's Zenith? Just playout, bounce, etc and float mana into 40 tokens. Or bomb an Eldrazi on board. This deck is going to get bumped up a little.
We are like minded here. I hate to go below three Sigarda's Aid. They guys I did extensive playtesting with would look down and sigh when I played turn 1.
Some people like foreign cards and value them over their native language ones. Korean and Russian and maybe Japanese tend to be worth more than English while other languages tend to be worth less.
I mean, it's not like any of us have spent good chunks of money foiling parts of this deck *chough* *chough*
Oh true, forgot. You can still get 9-10 artifacts on board and improvise for a fattie though, and obviously Wx is much more manageable, I just felt like WSZ was worth the honorable mention. Besides using it as a finisher, it also just generally adds mana to the deck.
2 Plains is a bad idea when your T1 play is Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand.
Why do you recommend cutting fastlands? They're painless and this deck's curve is low.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.