The newly-spoiled Dramatic Reversal is an instant that untaps all your non-land permanents for two mana. Sounds like an awesome thing to imprint on Isochron Scepter! With two mana-producing permanents on the board, you can repeat the cycle infinite times. It only costs four mana to go off, in a deck that would be running ramp already. Both combo pieces cost two, so you can transmute for either with Muddle the Mixture.
You could just build the deck in a splinter twin like shell and seek to win turn 4 just playing the tempo game, you know, without being to greedy just 4 scepters, 4 dramatic reversal, 4 banefire tons of cantrips and good old snappy plus cryptic command.
What's the best win condition? Ideally you'd get something that makes mana and takes advantage of the storm, but nothing is springing to mind. Pristine Talisman? Cryptolith Fragment?
4x Surge Node - mana ramp, always want to be casted on turn 1 if possible
4x Astral Cornucopia - go-to artifact for the win(need RR to win)
4x Everflowing Chalice - good ramp
2x Mox Opal - untaps with Scepter, adds to speed
2x Welding Jar - protects trinkets, adds to metalcraft, and helps Mox turn on faster
It may seem confusing to some so I'll explain how this deck wins. Basically what you want is a Scepter in play, a mana rock that gives 3+ mana, and Otherworld Atlas. From there you put a lot of counters on Atlas, tap it to draw(40 or more cards), then you cast Molten Psyche for the win.
With this combination of ramp/artifacts, you could actually combo off on turn 2. It goes like this:
Turn 1: Island, Surge Node, Astral Cornucopia(for 0), Mox Opal - tap Island for Node, tap Opal to put counter on Cornucopia, pass turn.
Turn 2: Island, tap Opal/Node on Cornucopia(2 counters). Tap both islands and Cornucopia for Scepter, with 2 mana to untap all artifacts. From there you have infinite mana turn 2. No wincon but there you go...
In my opinion if you want this deck to work you have to go 'all-out' combo.
A creature strategy seems terrible because it's likely your deck won't be much good as an aggro deck. You'll have all these weak creatures and stuff like Springleaf Drum, Mox Opal, etc. If you can't draw the combo you should have a very good backup plan. Seems too inconsistent to me.
As a control shell it could be good, as Scepter adds value to a lot of cards like Lightning Helix, Remand, etc. The problem with this style is, can you combo off before your opponent beats you down first? Also, does adding stuff like Mox Opal and a bunch of mana rocks really help out control? My guess is a control list wouldn't want to run the Scepter/Reversal combo because it takes up too much deck space.
So all-in-all I think the deck HAS to be artifact based. They untap off Reversal and they are harder to remove than creatures are. With the Surge Node/Cornucopia/Chalice/Opal package you have 14 cards that can be played turn 1, and will ramp you up to the 4 mana needed to combo.
There's many ways to take this combo and this is just one. I hope I've given you guys some things to think on. I'll continue to check in and see what happens. I hope we can come up with something cool.
another really good card might be Flame Fusillade, it hasn't seen any action since they erratta'ed time vault and changed the game rules to stop infinite untaps.
I really like the idea behind the borderposts. As a long time tester for Restore Balance I feel like I've got a pretty good grasp of the "BPs".
The problem with them is that they're sorcery speed. Sure they let you combo turn 2 or whatever, so what. BPs need to be played proactively. I think this opens up a huge weakness in the combo by allowing the other player to respond to you.
What happens against any black deck that turn 1 IoK on you, after you've played a BP?
What happens when they Abrupt Decay/Stony Silence on turn 2 after you've played your Scepter?
This begs the question: If our combo is removed can this deck find an alternate way to win???
Twin had Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Anger of the Gods, Countermagic, etc so that even if one of the 4 combo pieces was removed they could durdle around long enough to grind out a win.
We have...Memnite??
I think we need to find some way to interact with the opponent and keep them where we want them until we combo off. The more I think about it the more I think we need a Spell Snare/Remand/Spell Pierce counter package. There are many cards in modern that will hurt a Scepter deck, which is why you don't see it running around all the time anyways. Protection is going to be a big thing to look at in the future if this ever picks up.
Any thought on cards like Silence, Lightning Helix, Atarka's Command, etc?
Personally I've always loved imprinting Research // Development, Odds // Ends, and Hide // Seek on the Scepter. BPs actually make these a legitimate option as you can get 5 colors quite easily with the right land setup. Will it be fast enough to compete? That's the question..
Be_lakor - I like the idea behind the creatures providing utility while also being part of the combo. Standalone they're not all that great but when you combo they win. The issue I see here is, how many times are they going to get destroyed before you get the combo off? Admittedly I would not hold removal for the Zhur-Taa Druid but if I knew he was part of the combo I might think otherwise. Your opponents will likely let you get away with it game 1 but not games 2 and 3.
As far as I can see, there aren't too many creatures that would serve as a good wincon without being easily destroyed. I just hate the idea of being ready to combo off and the opponent uses some mass removal and destroys our opportunity to combo. Against linear aggro strategies this will probably be 'ok' but will it be fast enough to race them?
Searys - I agree tutors are needed. If we don't have them we give up consistency and speed. If you can search your wincon with your tutors that's even better. Not entirely sure what you mean but that's what I got from your post.
It's not mana efficient as an accelerant, but if Magnifying Glass is one of your mana rocks and you're going infinite, you can use it to draw your deck without needing another card. It may belong in the basket with Pristine Talisman and Cryptolith Fragment. This may also be the rare deck that isn't super unhappy to keep a hand with Serum Powder, which could help us run fewer tutors.
Thanks for finding Zhur-Taa Druid! I thought I remembered something like it but of course it's at the absolute bottom of the Gatherer search. I wonder if you could drop the combo into an Elves shell? Dramatic Reversal becomes something of a ritual even if you don't have Scepter to imprint it on., and you have a good proactive plan if the combo never comes up.
My real question for everyone here, is why noneone seems to be running Grapeshot as the combo finisher?
Reasons to play grapeshot:
- The Dramatic reversals DO count towards storm. Read the wording on Isochron Scepter
- Cant be countered if you throw it out for more copies than you need
- Tutorable with Muddle the Mixture (You can obtain the ENTIRE combo with 1 tutor, and its a counter on top of that)
Why run cheesy finishers that dont reliably close games or require multiple cards when you could go for the tried and true route?
Since we're casting it off of Scepter anyway, we don't even need to run blue at all. We can just run a bunch of mana dorks and have a base green deck with a red splash for Grapeshot. That way, we can just run stuff like Wurmcoil Engine to buy time or act as alternate win conditions.
R/G - Running the burn druid and a few other mana dorks, with some RG Borderposts, Grapeshot or Banefire wincon. (Not enough good tutors, wasnt reliable. Also very weak to any deck running Lightning bolt or Path to Exile)
Artifacts - Running a little blue, and splashing red, but mostly colorless for Surge Node, Astral Cornucopia, Everflowing Chalice, and Mox Opal to try for a grapeshot kill (One of the better failures, partially inspired the end result, but was too inconsistent)
Shells:
Tezzerator - Tezzeret himself was rather strong and made the build ill be presenting, but the shell just doesn't have space for the combo, and some of its main tools, such as Trinket Mage and Engineered Explosives are rather unsynergistic
Lantern Control - Felt smooth manabase wise, but again, just didnt have space for the 2 conflicting ideals.
My build - This isnt quite complete, its missing a few slots which ill explain possible choices for below the build:
So, my thoughts on the cards that still need confirmation.
Mana Rocks. I've left open 4 slots for a playset of something. I dont know what really, but I think it needs to be another rock to consistently preform well. Stuff i've considered and tested with decent results at least are: Pristine Talisman (Soft Alt win con against linear damage dealing decks) Issues: 3 mana. Sometimes your combo will come out a turn later because of it. Serum Powder (has a nice passive, and as a mana rock its actually not bad to keep a hand with one) Issues: Being forced to exile combo pieces. Being a 3 drop. Everflowing Chalice(drops for 2. is a rock. tutors for 0) Issues: Only provides 1 colorless in most situations with no extra effects. Prismatic Lens(potential colored mana if we need it. drops for 2) Issues: if we combo out on t3 with only 2 rocks, no colorless.
Spells. I think 6-8 spots should go to some combination of these spells, and 0-2 to more islands, but havent decided which: Fabricate(Gets Scepter or a Rock, but slow) Reshape(Gets Scepter or a Rock straight into play, but at the cost of saccing something) Peer Through Depths (helps us find our hardest to get pieces. (Grapshot and Reversal)) Thirst For Knowledge (Good Draw power at a cost) Serum Visions (Good t1 play, but might be not as good of a contender in this deck)
Sideboard hasnt been developed yet but I think Welding Jar and Pact of Negation are shoe ins.
Because of our mana types provided by rocks, we have ample access to green for hate so we can hit stuff like Stony Silence.
I like the direction you're going, ThaGentleman. Someone already mentioned it but Magnifying Glass could be a good one. It is a 3 drop but adds the ability of drawing your deck and being a combo piece all in one. I think it's worth testing. Another card you may consider is Mind Stone.
Also with those flex spots you may want to consider a playset of Remand.
I have a hard time seeing how a Reshape package with 'charge rocks' isn't consistent enough but I'd have to try it out for myself to see. Could you further elaborate on why you don't think it's consistent enough? I'd sure appreciate it.
I like the direction you're going, ThaGentleman. Someone already mentioned it but Magnifying Glass could be a good one. It is a 3 drop but adds the ability of drawing your deck and being a combo piece all in one. I think it's worth testing. Another card you may consider is Mind Stone.
Also with those flex spots you may want to consider a playset of Remand.
I have a hard time seeing how a Reshape package with 'charge rocks' isn't consistent enough but I'd have to try it out for myself to see. Could you further elaborate on why you don't think it's consistent enough? I'd sure appreciate it.
Felt really inconsistent in the early turns, you basically needed a surge node, and when you got it, you had an explosive start, but it just turned into a mana sink. I think the charge rocks are probably better for an infinite mana shell, but the grapeshot wincon is smoother, only needing 2 rocks of any kind.
[card]
I am currently testing Magnifying Glass and Serum Powder[/card]. I think theyre good but ill have to wait to give the verdict until ive had more time with them. The last rock will probably be one of the two. The more I play Pristine Talisman the more i just feel like its a dead card and a winmore.
Something I tried today and found great success with was Dimir Infiltrator He's essentially Muddle the Mixture copies 5-8, and would be run instead of fabricate/reshape. To make this work seamlessly, i swapped out talisman and borderpost for their Black/Red counterparts
(Veinfire Borderpost and Talisman of Indulgence)
Remand is definelty nice, im jsut not sure where to put it. Ive found myself using Peer Through Depths as the flex slots alongside the infiltrator and liking it, i might try it there. Also, i think tezz is defs good, but with more testing he feels a little slow.
On a side note, the charge rocks Surge Node combo might work running Energy Chamber with Trinket Mage,Tolaria West, and Reshape. Im curretly drafting a list for this iteration to run some tests.
4x Surge Node - mana ramp, always want to be casted on turn 1 if possible
4x Astral Cornucopia - go-to artifact for the win(need RR to win)
4x Everflowing Chalice - good ramp
2x Mox Opal - untaps with Scepter, adds to speed
2x Welding Jar - protects trinkets, adds to metalcraft, and helps Mox turn on faster
It may seem confusing to some so I'll explain how this deck wins. Basically what you want is a Scepter in play, a mana rock that gives 3+ mana, and Otherworld Atlas. From there you put a lot of counters on Atlas, tap it to draw(40 or more cards), then you cast Molten Psyche for the win.
With this combination of ramp/artifacts, you could actually combo off on turn 2. It goes like this:
Turn 1: Island, Surge Node, Astral Cornucopia(for 0), Mox Opal - tap Island for Node, tap Opal to put counter on Cornucopia, pass turn.
Turn 2: Island, tap Opal/Node on Cornucopia(2 counters). Tap both islands and Cornucopia for Scepter, with 2 mana to untap all artifacts. From there you have infinite mana turn 2. No wincon but there you go...
In my opinion if you want this deck to work you have to go 'all-out' combo.
A creature strategy seems terrible because it's likely your deck won't be much good as an aggro deck. You'll have all these weak creatures and stuff like Springleaf Drum, Mox Opal, etc. If you can't draw the combo you should have a very good backup plan. Seems too inconsistent to me.
As a control shell it could be good, as Scepter adds value to a lot of cards like Lightning Helix, Remand, etc. The problem with this style is, can you combo off before your opponent beats you down first? Also, does adding stuff like Mox Opal and a bunch of mana rocks really help out control? My guess is a control list wouldn't want to run the Scepter/Reversal combo because it takes up too much deck space.
So all-in-all I think the deck HAS to be artifact based. They untap off Reversal and they are harder to remove than creatures are. With the Surge Node/Cornucopia/Chalice/Opal package you have 14 cards that can be played turn 1, and will ramp you up to the 4 mana needed to combo.
There's many ways to take this combo and this is just one. I hope I've given you guys some things to think on. I'll continue to check in and see what happens. I hope we can come up with something cool.
It reminds me of a deck I used to mess around with, with the charge counter theme coupled with Atlas as a refill/mill/kill mechanic and Time Warp to untap.
I think that if we are to go in this direction then I think that the tutors need to go. I've never been a big fan of tutors in Modern, especially in a 5-6 card combo deck. Spending one turn getting one out of 5 pieces is just too slow. I'm a bigger fan of a combination between Serum Visions, Thoughtcast and Tezzeret's Gambit, the last one is unorthodox but I've been impressed with it for its ability to ramp and draw at the same time.
The deck I used to run was around 1-1½ turn too slow. Not sure that this combo speeds the combo up that much but It'd be nice to mess around with and find out.
This is how I'd start out. In order to fully abuse Cornucopia and Chalice you need at least 7 support cards in my experience, therefor I added Coretapper which have been great in my testing. You play it turn 2 with a mana rock, sack it and then you have two extra mana to mess around with the same turn, making it a mana neutral play. He's also great at giving Atlas an explosive start (note you can use Atlas to draw into the missing pieces). I prefer Emmy to Molten Pysche since he's better in a vacuum (in case you have infinite mana but no Atlas). You can either just play him, or you can parse the turn, discard down to hand size, shuffle your GY back in and then mill your opponent in his upkeep.
I like the inclusion of Coretapper. He plays with most of the deck fairly well.
You think Thoughtcast/Serum Visions/Tezz's Gambit are the best cards for those slots? A Fabricate/Reshape/Muddle the Mixture would all be good cards to add in my opinion. I'm not sold on card draw since we have access to unlimited mana. With enough mana card draw seems lackluster. I can't see Serum Visions and Thoughtcast speeding up turn 1-2 that much so I'm skeptical to run them.
I think that if we are to go in this direction then I think that the tutors need to go. I've never been a big fan of tutors in Modern, especially in a 5-6 card combo deck. Spending one turn getting one out of 5 pieces is just too slow. I'm a bigger fan of a combination between Serum Visions, Thoughtcast and Tezzeret's Gambit, the last one is unorthodox but I've been impressed with it for its ability to ramp and draw at the same time.
The deck I used to run was around 1-1½ turn too slow. Not sure that this combo speeds the combo up that much but It'd be nice to mess around with and find out.
We cant ditch the tutors specifically because its a multicard combo. You wont win games by hoping to draw into your pieces with cheap card advantage. Also of all the things to do with infite mana and card draw, a single emrakul isnt exactly the best win con in the book.
I like the inclusion of Coretapper. He plays with most of the deck fairly well.
You think Thoughtcast/Serum Visions/Tezz's Gambit are the best cards for those slots? A Fabricate/Reshape/Muddle the Mixture would all be good cards to add in my opinion. I'm not sold on card draw since we have access to unlimited mana. With enough mana card draw seems lackluster. I can't see Serum Visions and Thoughtcast speeding up turn 1-2 that much so I'm skeptical to run them.
Thoughts?
Coretapper is good and could be the outlet that enables the charge rocks version, but atlas is too gimmicky. We definetly need tutors. Ill be testing a few charge rocks lists this after, prolly get like 15 or so games on each. ill post it here later.
My version might be less reliant on tutors since you can probably go off without the Scepter by chaining Dramatic Reversals together. I think you might underestimate just how fast that Atlas can spiral out of control, granted that in the deck I ran it in also included Voltaic Key which did a lot of the work. I'm not closed to the idea of tutors but generally I tend to prefer card draw in combo decks. That's what I've had most success with with other combo brews in the past, especially combos that rely on multiple moving pieces.
I think that if we are to go in this direction then I think that the tutors need to go. I've never been a big fan of tutors in Modern, especially in a 5-6 card combo deck. Spending one turn getting one out of 5 pieces is just too slow. I'm a bigger fan of a combination between Serum Visions, Thoughtcast and Tezzeret's Gambit, the last one is unorthodox but I've been impressed with it for its ability to ramp and draw at the same time.
The deck I used to run was around 1-1½ turn too slow. Not sure that this combo speeds the combo up that much but It'd be nice to mess around with and find out.
We cant ditch the tutors specifically because its a multicard combo. You wont win games by hoping to draw into your pieces with cheap card advantage. Also of all the things to do with infite mana and card draw, a single emrakul isnt exactly the best win con in the book.
I prefer Emmy to having Molten Psyche get countered tbh (especially after you've let your opponent draw into a bunch of cards). Not sure I understand why Emmy is a bad idea? What are the alternatives? I guess you could run Banefire but what if it gets Thoughtseized turn 1?
I think that if we are to go in this direction then I think that the tutors need to go. I've never been a big fan of tutors in Modern, especially in a 5-6 card combo deck. Spending one turn getting one out of 5 pieces is just too slow. I'm a bigger fan of a combination between Serum Visions, Thoughtcast and Tezzeret's Gambit, the last one is unorthodox but I've been impressed with it for its ability to ramp and draw at the same time.
The deck I used to run was around 1-1½ turn too slow. Not sure that this combo speeds the combo up that much but It'd be nice to mess around with and find out.
We cant ditch the tutors specifically because its a multicard combo. You wont win games by hoping to draw into your pieces with cheap card advantage. Also of all the things to do with infite mana and card draw, a single emrakul isnt exactly the best win con in the book.
I prefer Emmy to having Molten Psyche get countered tbh (especially after you've let your opponent draw into a bunch of cards). Not sure I understand why Emmy is a bad idea? What are the alternatives? I guess you could run Banefire but what if it gets Thoughtseized turn 1?
I like emrakul too since it dodges leyline, counters and can be cast off of enough everflowing chalices. It is a dead card in the opening hand though. If you have infinite symmetric card draw you can always go with Angel's Grace to avoid losing when you deck yourself. Devil's Play is another option since we can bring it back after a counter or using it as removal.
I'm not sure if tutors are the best way to go because even though it's 4-6 card combo most of the pieces aren't bad on their own and we can run enough mana rocks to avoid tutoring for them most of the time. The combo looks like it would work well in a shell where we can use the pieces on their own.
These were the shells I was looking at when I was thinking of ways to use the combo.
u/g scepter fog. Fogs play nice with scepter anyway and give you plenty of time to dig to the combo. It might take up too much space though.
artifact control/ramp/tezzeret between chalice of the void, engineered explosives, ensnaring bridge and spellskite there's a lot of artifacts that can just gum up the board and slow the game down. Dramatic reversal turns into a massive ritual with mox opal, everflowing chalice and surge node. This opens up using things like karn or tezzeret the seeker as a wincon.
u/r control. Lightning bolt is one of the best spells in the format and putting it on scepter is pretty strong even without any other shenanigans. Remand is good This would be less focused on the combo so you could probably run pristine talisman or magnifying glass as your "wincons".
u/b thopter sword. If you're already tutoring for 2 mana cards and making a bunch of mana, thopter sword is a great way to spend it.
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Maybe a good fit alongside Jeskai Ascendancy?
What's the best win condition? Ideally you'd get something that makes mana and takes advantage of the storm, but nothing is springing to mind. Pristine Talisman? Cryptolith Fragment?
Young Pyromancer or Monastery Memtor? Just straight up Grapeshot?
1x Molten Psyche - kill card
1x Otherworld Atlas - power behind Psyche
4x Isochron Scepter - main combo card
4x Dramatic Reversal - main combo card
2x Fabricate - tutor
2x Reshape - tutor
4x Muddle the Mixture - best tutor, as it finds both combo pieces
4x Day's Undoing - want to cast turn 2 or 3
4x Quicken - makes the combo an instant kill, instant tutor, etc
4x Surge Node - mana ramp, always want to be casted on turn 1 if possible
4x Astral Cornucopia - go-to artifact for the win(need RR to win)
4x Everflowing Chalice - good ramp
2x Mox Opal - untaps with Scepter, adds to speed
2x Welding Jar - protects trinkets, adds to metalcraft, and helps Mox turn on faster
17x Island
1x Academy Ruins
It may seem confusing to some so I'll explain how this deck wins. Basically what you want is a Scepter in play, a mana rock that gives 3+ mana, and Otherworld Atlas. From there you put a lot of counters on Atlas, tap it to draw(40 or more cards), then you cast Molten Psyche for the win.
With this combination of ramp/artifacts, you could actually combo off on turn 2. It goes like this:
Turn 1: Island, Surge Node, Astral Cornucopia(for 0), Mox Opal - tap Island for Node, tap Opal to put counter on Cornucopia, pass turn.
Turn 2: Island, tap Opal/Node on Cornucopia(2 counters). Tap both islands and Cornucopia for Scepter, with 2 mana to untap all artifacts. From there you have infinite mana turn 2. No wincon but there you go...
In my opinion if you want this deck to work you have to go 'all-out' combo.
A creature strategy seems terrible because it's likely your deck won't be much good as an aggro deck. You'll have all these weak creatures and stuff like Springleaf Drum, Mox Opal, etc. If you can't draw the combo you should have a very good backup plan. Seems too inconsistent to me.
As a control shell it could be good, as Scepter adds value to a lot of cards like Lightning Helix, Remand, etc. The problem with this style is, can you combo off before your opponent beats you down first? Also, does adding stuff like Mox Opal and a bunch of mana rocks really help out control? My guess is a control list wouldn't want to run the Scepter/Reversal combo because it takes up too much deck space.
So all-in-all I think the deck HAS to be artifact based. They untap off Reversal and they are harder to remove than creatures are. With the Surge Node/Cornucopia/Chalice/Opal package you have 14 cards that can be played turn 1, and will ramp you up to the 4 mana needed to combo.
There's many ways to take this combo and this is just one. I hope I've given you guys some things to think on. I'll continue to check in and see what happens. I hope we can come up with something cool.
The problem with them is that they're sorcery speed. Sure they let you combo turn 2 or whatever, so what. BPs need to be played proactively. I think this opens up a huge weakness in the combo by allowing the other player to respond to you.
What happens against any black deck that turn 1 IoK on you, after you've played a BP?
What happens when they Abrupt Decay/Stony Silence on turn 2 after you've played your Scepter?
This begs the question: If our combo is removed can this deck find an alternate way to win???
Twin had Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Anger of the Gods, Countermagic, etc so that even if one of the 4 combo pieces was removed they could durdle around long enough to grind out a win.
We have...Memnite??
I think we need to find some way to interact with the opponent and keep them where we want them until we combo off. The more I think about it the more I think we need a Spell Snare/Remand/Spell Pierce counter package. There are many cards in modern that will hurt a Scepter deck, which is why you don't see it running around all the time anyways. Protection is going to be a big thing to look at in the future if this ever picks up.
Any thought on cards like Silence, Lightning Helix, Atarka's Command, etc?
Personally I've always loved imprinting Research // Development, Odds // Ends, and Hide // Seek on the Scepter. BPs actually make these a legitimate option as you can get 5 colors quite easily with the right land setup. Will it be fast enough to compete? That's the question..
As far as I can see, there aren't too many creatures that would serve as a good wincon without being easily destroyed. I just hate the idea of being ready to combo off and the opponent uses some mass removal and destroys our opportunity to combo. Against linear aggro strategies this will probably be 'ok' but will it be fast enough to race them?
Searys - I agree tutors are needed. If we don't have them we give up consistency and speed. If you can search your wincon with your tutors that's even better. Not entirely sure what you mean but that's what I got from your post.
Thanks for finding Zhur-Taa Druid! I thought I remembered something like it but of course it's at the absolute bottom of the Gatherer search. I wonder if you could drop the combo into an Elves shell? Dramatic Reversal becomes something of a ritual even if you don't have Scepter to imprint it on., and you have a good proactive plan if the combo never comes up.
Reasons to play grapeshot:
- The Dramatic reversals DO count towards storm. Read the wording on Isochron Scepter
- Cant be countered if you throw it out for more copies than you need
- Tutorable with Muddle the Mixture (You can obtain the ENTIRE combo with 1 tutor, and its a counter on top of that)
Why run cheesy finishers that dont reliably close games or require multiple cards when you could go for the tried and true route?
Also. Pact of Negation is probably at least a 2 of
Ive been through 4 separate list types, and 2 shells with various changes;
U/G - Birds Of Paradise Sylvan Caryatid List running the combo and a card/mana infinite to make them mill out on a Blue Sun's Zenith or Fascination (This was a flop, tested three full builds and some partial changes and gave up)
R/G - Running the burn druid and a few other mana dorks, with some RG Borderposts, Grapeshot or Banefire wincon. (Not enough good tutors, wasnt reliable. Also very weak to any deck running Lightning bolt or Path to Exile)
Artifacts - Running a little blue, and splashing red, but mostly colorless for Surge Node, Astral Cornucopia, Everflowing Chalice, and Mox Opal to try for a grapeshot kill (One of the better failures, partially inspired the end result, but was too inconsistent)
Shells:
Tezzerator - Tezzeret himself was rather strong and made the build ill be presenting, but the shell just doesn't have space for the combo, and some of its main tools, such as Trinket Mage and Engineered Explosives are rather unsynergistic
Lantern Control - Felt smooth manabase wise, but again, just didnt have space for the 2 conflicting ideals.
My build - This isnt quite complete, its missing a few slots which ill explain possible choices for below the build:
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Opal
4 Talisman of Impulse
4 ManaRockChoices
4 Muddle The Mixture
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Grapeshot
4 Darksteel Citadel
13 Island
8 Filler
So, my thoughts on the cards that still need confirmation.
Mana Rocks. I've left open 4 slots for a playset of something. I dont know what really, but I think it needs to be another rock to consistently preform well. Stuff i've considered and tested with decent results at least are:
Pristine Talisman (Soft Alt win con against linear damage dealing decks) Issues: 3 mana. Sometimes your combo will come out a turn later because of it.
Serum Powder (has a nice passive, and as a mana rock its actually not bad to keep a hand with one) Issues: Being forced to exile combo pieces. Being a 3 drop.
Everflowing Chalice(drops for 2. is a rock. tutors for 0) Issues: Only provides 1 colorless in most situations with no extra effects.
Prismatic Lens(potential colored mana if we need it. drops for 2) Issues: if we combo out on t3 with only 2 rocks, no colorless.
Spells. I think 6-8 spots should go to some combination of these spells, and 0-2 to more islands, but havent decided which:
Fabricate(Gets Scepter or a Rock, but slow)
Reshape(Gets Scepter or a Rock straight into play, but at the cost of saccing something)
Peer Through Depths (helps us find our hardest to get pieces. (Grapshot and Reversal))
Thirst For Knowledge (Good Draw power at a cost)
Serum Visions (Good t1 play, but might be not as good of a contender in this deck)
Sideboard hasnt been developed yet but I think Welding Jar and Pact of Negation are shoe ins.
Because of our mana types provided by rocks, we have ample access to green for hate so we can hit stuff like Stony Silence.
Another build im tinkering with has R/B borederposts and talisman for inquisition and such
Also with those flex spots you may want to consider a playset of Remand.
I have a hard time seeing how a Reshape package with 'charge rocks' isn't consistent enough but I'd have to try it out for myself to see. Could you further elaborate on why you don't think it's consistent enough? I'd sure appreciate it.
Felt really inconsistent in the early turns, you basically needed a surge node, and when you got it, you had an explosive start, but it just turned into a mana sink. I think the charge rocks are probably better for an infinite mana shell, but the grapeshot wincon is smoother, only needing 2 rocks of any kind.
[card]
I am currently testing Magnifying Glass and Serum Powder[/card]. I think theyre good but ill have to wait to give the verdict until ive had more time with them. The last rock will probably be one of the two. The more I play Pristine Talisman the more i just feel like its a dead card and a winmore.
Something I tried today and found great success with was Dimir Infiltrator He's essentially Muddle the Mixture copies 5-8, and would be run instead of fabricate/reshape. To make this work seamlessly, i swapped out talisman and borderpost for their Black/Red counterparts
(Veinfire Borderpost and Talisman of Indulgence)
Remand is definelty nice, im jsut not sure where to put it. Ive found myself using Peer Through Depths as the flex slots alongside the infiltrator and liking it, i might try it there. Also, i think tezz is defs good, but with more testing he feels a little slow.
On a side note, the charge rocks Surge Node combo might work running Energy Chamber with Trinket Mage,Tolaria West, and Reshape. Im curretly drafting a list for this iteration to run some tests.
It reminds me of a deck I used to mess around with, with the charge counter theme coupled with Atlas as a refill/mill/kill mechanic and Time Warp to untap.
I think that if we are to go in this direction then I think that the tutors need to go. I've never been a big fan of tutors in Modern, especially in a 5-6 card combo deck. Spending one turn getting one out of 5 pieces is just too slow. I'm a bigger fan of a combination between Serum Visions, Thoughtcast and Tezzeret's Gambit, the last one is unorthodox but I've been impressed with it for its ability to ramp and draw at the same time.
The deck I used to run was around 1-1½ turn too slow. Not sure that this combo speeds the combo up that much but It'd be nice to mess around with and find out.
3 Otherworld Atlas
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Dramatic Reversal
4 Thoughtcast
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Surge Node
3 Coretapper
4 Astral Cornucopia
3 Everflowing Chalice
2 Welding Jar
16 Island
This is how I'd start out. In order to fully abuse Cornucopia and Chalice you need at least 7 support cards in my experience, therefor I added Coretapper which have been great in my testing. You play it turn 2 with a mana rock, sack it and then you have two extra mana to mess around with the same turn, making it a mana neutral play. He's also great at giving Atlas an explosive start (note you can use Atlas to draw into the missing pieces). I prefer Emmy to Molten Pysche since he's better in a vacuum (in case you have infinite mana but no Atlas). You can either just play him, or you can parse the turn, discard down to hand size, shuffle your GY back in and then mill your opponent in his upkeep.
You think Thoughtcast/Serum Visions/Tezz's Gambit are the best cards for those slots? A Fabricate/Reshape/Muddle the Mixture would all be good cards to add in my opinion. I'm not sold on card draw since we have access to unlimited mana. With enough mana card draw seems lackluster. I can't see Serum Visions and Thoughtcast speeding up turn 1-2 that much so I'm skeptical to run them.
Thoughts?
We cant ditch the tutors specifically because its a multicard combo. You wont win games by hoping to draw into your pieces with cheap card advantage. Also of all the things to do with infite mana and card draw, a single emrakul isnt exactly the best win con in the book.
Coretapper is good and could be the outlet that enables the charge rocks version, but atlas is too gimmicky. We definetly need tutors. Ill be testing a few charge rocks lists this after, prolly get like 15 or so games on each. ill post it here later.
I prefer Emmy to having Molten Psyche get countered tbh (especially after you've let your opponent draw into a bunch of cards). Not sure I understand why Emmy is a bad idea? What are the alternatives? I guess you could run Banefire but what if it gets Thoughtseized turn 1?
I like emrakul too since it dodges leyline, counters and can be cast off of enough everflowing chalices. It is a dead card in the opening hand though. If you have infinite symmetric card draw you can always go with Angel's Grace to avoid losing when you deck yourself. Devil's Play is another option since we can bring it back after a counter or using it as removal.
I'm not sure if tutors are the best way to go because even though it's 4-6 card combo most of the pieces aren't bad on their own and we can run enough mana rocks to avoid tutoring for them most of the time. The combo looks like it would work well in a shell where we can use the pieces on their own.
These were the shells I was looking at when I was thinking of ways to use the combo.
u/g scepter fog. Fogs play nice with scepter anyway and give you plenty of time to dig to the combo. It might take up too much space though.
artifact control/ramp/tezzeret between chalice of the void, engineered explosives, ensnaring bridge and spellskite there's a lot of artifacts that can just gum up the board and slow the game down. Dramatic reversal turns into a massive ritual with mox opal, everflowing chalice and surge node. This opens up using things like karn or tezzeret the seeker as a wincon.
u/r control. Lightning bolt is one of the best spells in the format and putting it on scepter is pretty strong even without any other shenanigans. Remand is good This would be less focused on the combo so you could probably run pristine talisman or magnifying glass as your "wincons".
u/b thopter sword. If you're already tutoring for 2 mana cards and making a bunch of mana, thopter sword is a great way to spend it.