The Ultiamte is pretty good but not necessarily game-winning but the "+ ability" isn't very useful with only mana dorks.
The "- ability" is very situational.
I would rather use Sarkhan Unbroken, whose Ult' isn't relevant but the other abilities are much better.
Another option is Ajani, Mentor of Heroes which can be decent for card draw selection (or pumping up a bird to attack) and the Ult' can buy a lot of time. Nissa, Vital Force is also very good with the + and Ult's very quickly.
I understand, however, I am currently using a more mid range decklist based on tokens and counters which by the way has a very good synergy with Doubling Season and I intend to keep the curve of the deck in 4 just because of the combo Utopia Sprawl + Arbor Elf on 2nd Turn, which has given me great results mainly against aggressive decks.
I will test it and if it works or not I will bring my report to this group.
Thx for the Feedback
I think Sylvan Caryatid is better than Fertile ground, because besides being good against aggro decks, it's harder to destroy, so I see a lot of players using Ghost Quarter and so I prefer Sylvan.
As for your deck I would consider putting +1 or +2 Banishing Light in place of 1 or 2 Journey to Nowhere depending on How is your local meta.
And since you're going to try to make a deck based on locking your opponent with enchantments, how about adding Elspeth, Knight-Errant since beyond that you protect with the +1 token it can make your enchantments and lands indestructible?
As for the curve, it can really be a problem because the goal is very aggressive and a deck like Infect, Affinity and Suicide Bloo who can end up with the game in the turn 2 or 3 so it really is an issue that you should evaluate.
Anyway, I think all attempts are valid on this deck, since the deck itself allows us to change it to different possibilities.
Another way to go about this might be to SB some anti-blue hate cards like: Choke or Boil.
Wow, nice SB cards, i did not know most of these cards, I sure will use them, thanks.
I think our deck is getting stronger and stronger, have you seen the new Oath of Ajani spoiler?
Would 2 copies run smoothly on our deck (The only problem is that it's legendary, that is, you can only have 1 on the field, so I do not think it's as good a card at all, since generating mana is not a big problem on our deck).
Anyway, I'm enjoying Aether revolt spoilers, and waiting a lot for the new Nicol Bolas
Hi everybody! I wanted to share my decklist, which has similar core, but it doesn't play any doubling season (because it is 5 cmc do-nothing enchantment) and no blood moons (local metagame call). So, is it a right place, or it would be better to create a separate thread?
As I mentioned, I only have two Doubling Seasons, so I am a little more focused on surviving the early game rather than comboing on T4. To do this I am playing 3 removal spells and maximizing the tokens. I think Oath of Gideon might be great - will report later.
I agree that Idyllic Tutor is a little slow, so I left it in the board and will bring it against decks that give me time to do so, i.e. anything other than Infect, Affinity, Burn, Zoo/Bloo, etc. I think T5 combo is fine against Tron, Jund/Junk, and most Midrange. Not sure about Control/Nahiri decks, I might want to focus on beatdown and in that case have a Gavony Township in the board?
One last card I think would be great but can't fit it in is Intangible Virtue. I have 8 token-makers main and 2 more in the board, so that might be enough. What do you guys think?
#Detention Sphere is a decent card and is probably more suited for the SB as well as Blessed Alliance imho, by moving them you can play 3x Path to Exile in the maindeck which can be good in various creature match-ups.
I would also go with Chandra ToD over Sorin SV (it isn't very good outside of a dedicated token strategy) which is also the only black card in the deck.
I just had a brainstorm - it might not be good but I think I can replace the missing Doubling Season with a Bring to Light! If I don't need DS, I can use it to find any of my planeswalkers, or the detention sphere, or any hate enchantment... potentially on turn three.
Switched to wishboard this week. Previously was maindeck +1 Nicol Bolas, +1 Genesis Hydra, +1 Rings of Brighthearth, -3 Glittering wish.
Thoughts on single cards:
1)Not playing right now Doubling season - does nothing by itself, makes us play more bad cards. Will never register this one. Blood moon - It is good, and gave me a lot of free wins, but it is only good when they don't know about it(i.e. at some big events). In LGS they know about it after 2-3 FNM's, and start to fetch basics, so i pulled back on this one. Rings of Brighthearth - It is really good when it is good, but sometimes it is a blank. Maybe worth it in a very grindy meta, but then again a lot of grindy decks play K-command (Jund, Grixis), so i'm not sure. Oath of Liliana - Want to try one in 75. Maybe next week Vraska the Unseen - slow, 1st ability does literally nothing. Maybe a necessary evil in a certain meta. Chandra, Torch of Defiance - May be worth giving a shot, but she's pretty average. Gets better in game 2, where they attack your manabase. I dont own one right now, but maybe slip in a singleton in near future. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - a win more card. 90% of the time Hornet Queen gets it done, and she is castable. Can't say the same about Emrakul
Other mana dorks - we are already vulnerable enough to sweepers. No reason to become more vulnerable here. The ones i play can make 2+ mana per turn, so the are clearly worth it.
Token-making Walkers (Gideon AoZ, Xenagos, Sorin SV, Nissa VoZ(yuck!)) - we are not a dedicated token deck, even though a lot of our wins are made via tokens.
Blue walkers - I'm not playing Blue, but if would, +1 Ral Zarek and +1 Jace AoT seems good. Tamiyo is straight unplayable.
And a lot of other cards, i tested a bunch of on-color stuff.
2)Cards i'm playing right now:
4x Arbor Elf, 4x Utopia sprawl, 3x Garruk Wildspeaker - this is the best ramp engine. A bit reluctant on 3rd Garruk, but he's one of our main wincons, so he stays for now.
2x Lotus Cobra, 1x explore, 1x Overgrowth - these are my "ramp flex slots". Currently testing this combination. Chandra, Pyromaster - she is better than ToD - can play lands and repeatedly kills with plus ability. Liliana, the Last Hope - she is THE reason we are playing the black splash. Kills with plus, and she is really your last hope in some matchups (Infect) and simply good in other (Affinity, Jund) Ajani Vengeant is not stellar, but we need some anti-burn cards. Gideon Jura and Nahiri, the Harbinger are our "midrange" walkers. They kill stuff, they win the game, they are stone cold good. Primal Command + Eternal Witness is why we win the long game and don't run out of gas. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is my pet card. I will never remove him from the deck, and he does win games. Glittering wish is the new addition, can't really say much about it, except that it is stellar vs. Affinity Crumble to Dust is our only way to beat Tron. You have it - you win. You don't have it - you lose. Genesis Hydra comes in against blue control decks (which is for some reason popular in our LGS), and is a great way to utilize mana. One maindeck copy is good for finding your noncreature wincons via Primal Command
That was a relatively long post, so i'll save thoughts on specific matchups for later post. Dredge is the nightmare, though.
I do like Sorin, but the B in the mana cost is probably not necessary. I'm also hesitant to play Chandra, Torch of Defiance because of the RR. In my Rakdos control deck she is amazing, since the top card is often useful in keeping me (and her) alive. In this deck I agree with kuzmich that Chandra, Pyromaster is better despite the weak ultimate.
Reporting in! Played 2-1 at today's FNM. Didn't get the Lilianas, and it did hurt quite enough, but whatever =)
1)2-1 vs. GR Valakut. Lost game1, crumbled him to dust game 2 and 3
2)2-1 vs. Jund. Game 1 stuck on 1 land for 5 turns, game 2 and 3 midranged him to death. There was an interesting moment where i played command making him topdeck his Liliana of the Veil and finding sideboarded Baloth, so when he replayed the Liliana, he passed the turn without activating her
3)0-2 vs. Melira combo. This is where loss of Lilianas hurt the most, and to make things worse i didnt have Firespout in my wishboard. Plus i haven't really tested this matchup, so that's an expected result. However, I don't think it is that bad of a matchup, i just need to tune up decklist (and skill, lol) a bit.
@daviusminimus :
1)I am 100% sure that Emrakul (and Nahiri #3 and #4) is an overkill. My main deck is Kiki-chord combo, and i play there the exact same combination - 2x Nahiri, 0 Emrakul. Let's get more elaborate on this one.
Usually, we are slower than the opponent, that means we have to play control for first 3-4-5 turns, and we usually minus Nahiri. By the time we can ultimate her, we are already winning, and don't really need that much for it. Most common kill for me is Hornet queen + Garruk ult, which is 21 trampling flying deathtouch damage even without dorks.
That doesnt change much even if we are the beatdown, or play "fast" Nahiri for the ult. if we are playing against a control deck - it can happen game1, especially when we are going first, but game2 you will never resolve your "fast" Nahiri through their bazillion of negates, and it takes only two hits from colonnade to kill her in the long run. By the way, the reason why i put quotes on fast is that turn 5 emrakul is not that fast by modern standards, they can just ignore Nahiri and kill you by that time.
2) Glittering wish is by no means something tested, and i feel underwhelmed by it too. But i think it can be the key for beating this diverse format. The main selling point for it is not that it can bring dedicated hate game1 (while it feels great when you do it), but that it can be an answer when you need it, and a threat otherwise. Surely you can't PtE your opponent to oblivion And for the commands - i already play 4 in 75, or do you mean maindeck?
3)Why do you feel that witness+command is jammed? We play all the good stuff from devotion shell, and dont play all the do-nothings like BTE and selkie. Again, why more walkers would be better? Synergy is good, but you need all your pieces to play their specific roles, and we do not gain a ton of value by simply playing a lot of cards with type planeswalker, and for them to have the same walker type is for us to have a lot of blanks in our hand from time to time. Witnesses and commands have their respective roles which they play good. Against a lot of decks (namely Valakut, Tron, Ad Nauseum) we are transforming into a weird ponza-style deck, and a big part of this "plan b" relies on having commands and witnesses in our 75. Even when we are not doing this, they are the only "straight" card advantage our deck has.
4)I did say sweepers, not bolts. Anger of the gods is on the peak right now, so i want my deck not to be crippled by it. Plus "hard" wrath effects like supreme verdict or the wrath itself can hurt our plan A too, so diversification of our ramp and threats helps mitigate the damage here. Besides, what's the draw of playing Caryatid anyway? She can't power up a 5-mana threat on turn 3, and 7-mana threat on turn 4, while costing 2 mana which is a lot.
Last, but not the least - Worship, like Blood Moon, does not give you free win against a good player - they will always bring in enchantment hate against you.
been playing this deck online but still missing Doubling Season on paper.
I've been playing this deck replacing Doubling season with 4 Gilder Bairn
It only doubles a single target but it can be even more annoying then doubling season. Let's say you double Gideon on each turn and force creatures to attack him...
Also it can untap in the damage phase if you attacked to tap it. Tamyio and Ral Zarek can tap it too. It's more of a control kind of strategy with all the planeswalker and you also don't have much answers to fast combo deck but it's working well and it's fun.
Hi Loadead, it's a nice find, and i actually like it more than Doubling season!
But in my opinion it is a little slow. Which matchups allow you to activate him? Maybe eldrazi..
P.S. Played a little more with wishboard version. You can now activate Chandra, Pyromaster's ultimate - 5 relevant targets in the maindeck, plus maybe more out of sideboard - both triple wish and triple command is pure gasoline.
Tested ~20 games against Burn - is a very tough matchup. You can win only if you are going first and their hand is on the slow side. Postboard gets a little better - as long as opponent does not know you sideboard plan.
Just wanted to chime in with my deck list. This is my favorite paper deck but unfortunately it is probably one of my least competitive. I have to agree the token plan is the way to go. Just flood the board with tokens and have it lead into one of the following: Beating the opponent down with tokens, transforming a Westvale Abbey, or doubling a Planeswalker.
In my local store's meta it seems this deck is way too slow to really get many wins and I never get to the point where 5+CMC walkers are viable. I used to run Ellspeth, Gideon, and a couple other 6CMC walkers and they would never leave my hand before the game was over. So I have resorted to a 4CMC limit on walkers except for 1 slot because Vraska is awesome... but for the most part I try to keep the CMC as low as possible.
My best moment with this deck so far is having a Doubling Season on the board, playing Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, ulting him immediately to steal an opponents Nahiri, the Harbinger that a Jeskai Nahiri player had on the board, and then using their own Nahiri against them. Definitely a fun interaction for sure.
I won à gains burn it's not à tough match up. I had Leyline up for game 2 and 3 and I play with sylvan cariatyd over noble hierarch. Since im playing 4 gilder bairn on paper I also play Pulse of Murasa to bring it back and the 6 life gain help against burn. They ususally just run out of gas and you can finish em with the combo with out replies
Lately I've been getting a lot of positive results, but a lot of them came from my opponents' mistakes. But again, isn't that a part of why we play non-conventional decks?
Regarding Liliana, The Last Hope - she is so good that i don't even think about not playing her, and moreover, thinking about playing 3. Together with wish they add to our deck turn 2-3 interaction, which helps in a lot of fast matchups - Infect, Affinity, Jund, even Eldrazi. +2 Overgrown Tomb -2 Forest is not that big of a price to pay.
Regarding Glittering Wish - Since i've switched to this version i've never wanted to come back, even though old version is better against some decks. First, let's talk drawbacks. Wish strains our mana a lot. Liliana is double black, sure, but she is fixed by oath, while wish is not. With wish in the deck, the correct play is always name white on the first Utopia Sprawl (if you dont need another color asap) - even without wish in our hand.
All that said, wish is the gas. I've somehow finalized my wishboard, here is the current one:
3x Crumble to Dust
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Fulminator Mage
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Primal Command
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Slaughter Games
1x Firespout
1x Wilt-leaf Liege
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
..And #16 is Melira, Sylvok Outcast. I can swap Liege, Wheel and Melira depending on my scouting before the tournament Liege is for all decks with Liliana of the Veil(BGx,8-Rack, Mardu midrange), Melira is against Inkmoth Nexus decks(Infect, Affinity), and wheel is obviously against graveyard decks and mill. Other notable card is Lightning Helix if your meta is aggro-heavy.
Second Ajani was moved from main to side, replaced him with Chandra ToD. Sigarda was a win-more, and I had to cut Command#2 and Hydra#2. Maelstrom Pulse was always mediocre in testing so it got the axe too. Other mediocre card is Slaughter Games, but for now it is in the deck.
One important thing is that while Wish indeed makes our relevant play a turn slower, it adds so much consistency that in the long run you will spend a lot more turns without it just praying and trying to topdeck something relevant.
Regarding matchups - I still don't have enough info for reliable statistics, but here's what i have:
Burn is the worst matchup, but it requires a lot of skill(or luck, lol) from the Burn pilot, so I get free wins here and there.
Tron is the nightmare pre-board, but postboard you can turn 3 Crumble to Dust him all day long. Or even turn 2 if you are lucky enough. You can win pre-board, but he need to stumble, or you need to go first and play something like t2 wish for Fulminator -> t3 fulminator ->t4 Witness/Liliana getting back fulminator and replaying him. Or even t3 Nicol Bolas =)
Infect is hard, but not unwinnable. Sure, you can get double t3 killed from time to time, but on the other hand, t2 Liliana or t3 Gideon are not that easy for them to overcome. Then you stick Ruric Thar or Melira and they are done. Mulligan here agressively, a lot of generally keepable hands are do-nothings against infect.
Blue control, creature combo, Valakut decks are average. Depends on their configuration it can get from slightly better to unwinnable (looking at you, combo elves.) But in most cases our average hands are more powerful than their.
Non-blue grindy decks - Jund/Junk, Mardu, Pox, whatever.. =) - Slightly better. In general, we have the more powerful plan, and can fight through their discard.
Bant Eldrazi - surprisingly good. They are slow enough for us to play all our ramp, and the we can Gideon/Nahiri/Chandra all their creatures and Bolas for the win.
Affinity - can t3 kill us, but otherwise we can buy ourselves enough time for Fracturing Gust and boom.
I have no info on Dredge, but I suppose it is not good at all =)
If you want info on some other matchups, or go a little more in-depth on one of this, feel free to ask!
Hey guys - just checking in.... I want to post my most recent version of the deck, which is pretty good but I don't think it can be optimized until I get a third Doubling Season.
Notes about my version - It is Bant only, and has the sub-focus on tokens, and a few interaction cards since I can't combo as fast as the versions with 3-4 Doubling Seasons. Regarding colors - It's just a bit cleaner, simpler and less painful. I've found I really don't need Nahiri because Jace can cast an Emrakul from my deck (or your deck), or Jace can cast a Tamiyo from my deck, and Tamiyo can cast an Emrakul from my hand. Here's the current list:
The flex walkers are Nissa, Vital Force and Narset Trancendent. If you haven't actually played with Narset, she's much better than you'd think. This deck has 31/60 targets for the +1, which puts her up to 7 loyalty on the turn you play her... without Doubling Season. The -2 Rebound effect is less relevant, but powerful when it's applicable, like to Path something, Bribery something, Tutor something, or gain 4 life. And the Ultimate wrecks almost every deck. She's my new fave...
The loosest card in the deck is Gavony Township... powerful with tokens, but I don't like that it can't play a T1 G, so I'd never play more than one. It could also be a Westvale Abbey with the same caveat.
Game 1 vs Esper I had 2 Nissa, only 1 green land so I went for a token and counters aggro, playing Doubling Season on T4 and creating a massive army. The guy then thought I was playing a GW Token Aggro deck. So game 2 he wasn't prepared at all. Doubling on T3 resolved and then Jace on T4. He conceaded once he realized it was the Planeswalker deck and he wasn't ready for it at all.
Game 1 vs Ad Nauseam I was on the Draw and he put Phyrexian unlife on T3 so instead of playing Doubling season I played Nahiri and exiled Unlife. T4 I played doubling season but he killed me before I could ult nahiri or found any other planeswalker. Game 2 I combo'd T4 with Jace. Game 3 was a longer game but I casted a Tamyio, found Ral Zarek, got 2 extra Turns and I top decked Emrakul so he conceaded.
Game 1 Vs Sultai control, too much discard, mulligan to 5 both games, didn't find Blood Moon on Game 2. Was horrid.
Game 1 Vs Fairies, I had Jace and Nissa without Doubling, when I found Doubling Season on T6 I cast it, she bounces back Jace in my hand. I had enough mana to cast him again and won. She didn't realize what doubling season did to Planeswalker. Game 2 I locked her down with Blood Moon on T2 and then I had Nahiri at... 24... blocked by a grafdiggers Cage. Then I was top decking to find any Planeswalker and it took... 13 rounds before she just scoop realizing she would never win. I found Doubling season very late.
VS Discard it's really hard... you need to find either Leyline or Blood Moon on your starting hand on G2 AND G3 because G1 is almost unwinnable. That being said I had lot's of fun with this deck. Specially watching your oppening thinking which Planes he should take down first.
I understand, however, I am currently using a more mid range decklist based on tokens and counters which by the way has a very good synergy with Doubling Season and I intend to keep the curve of the deck in 4 just because of the combo Utopia Sprawl + Arbor Elf on 2nd Turn, which has given me great results mainly against aggressive decks.
I will test it and if it works or not I will bring my report to this group.
Thx for the Feedback
I think Sylvan Caryatid is better than Fertile ground, because besides being good against aggro decks, it's harder to destroy, so I see a lot of players using Ghost Quarter and so I prefer Sylvan.
As for your deck I would consider putting +1 or +2 Banishing Light in place of 1 or 2 Journey to Nowhere depending on How is your local meta.
And since you're going to try to make a deck based on locking your opponent with enchantments, how about adding Elspeth, Knight-Errant since beyond that you protect with the +1 token it can make your enchantments and lands indestructible?
Well, if your intention is to lock the opponent I would replace the 2 Chandra, torch of defiance by 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
As for the curve, it can really be a problem because the goal is very aggressive and a deck like Infect, Affinity and Suicide Bloo who can end up with the game in the turn 2 or 3 so it really is an issue that you should evaluate.
Anyway, I think all attempts are valid on this deck, since the deck itself allows us to change it to different possibilities.
Take tests and tell us how you performed.
I've particularly had bad matches against control decks, especially Grixis Delver, Grixis Control and Mono blue tron, because apart from the various Countersquall, Cryptic Command, Condescend, Remand, Snapcaster Mage, etc. They still have things like Lightning Bolt, Oblivion Stone and Chalice of the Void (All of these Fuc*ing cards are main deck sadly) and this is very annoying, what makes me think, why do not we have a Boseiju, Who Shelters All or a Cavern of Souls for our walkers, I think it's the only thing missing from the deck.
Please WOTC, do this for us ??
Another way to go about this might be to SB some anti-blue hate cards like: Choke or Boil.
Wow, nice SB cards, i did not know most of these cards, I sure will use them, thanks.
I think our deck is getting stronger and stronger, have you seen the new Oath of Ajani spoiler?
Would 2 copies run smoothly on our deck (The only problem is that it's legendary, that is, you can only have 1 on the field, so I do not think it's as good a card at all, since generating mana is not a big problem on our deck).
Anyway, I'm enjoying Aether revolt spoilers, and waiting a lot for the new Nicol Bolas
I have two, plus an idyllic tutor - will that work?
Blood Moon, Worship (or Ghostly Prison), Stony Silence and Rest in Peace as it can find any of them.
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Instants
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Path to Exile
13 Enchantments
1 Detention Sphere
2 Oath of Gideon
2 Doubling Season
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
16 Planeswalkers
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Ral Zarek
1 Gideon Jura
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Canopy Vista
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Path to Exile
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Idyllic Tutor
As I mentioned, I only have two Doubling Seasons, so I am a little more focused on surviving the early game rather than comboing on T4. To do this I am playing 3 removal spells and maximizing the tokens. I think Oath of Gideon might be great - will report later.
I agree that Idyllic Tutor is a little slow, so I left it in the board and will bring it against decks that give me time to do so, i.e. anything other than Infect, Affinity, Burn, Zoo/Bloo, etc. I think T5 combo is fine against Tron, Jund/Junk, and most Midrange. Not sure about Control/Nahiri decks, I might want to focus on beatdown and in that case have a Gavony Township in the board?
One last card I think would be great but can't fit it in is Intangible Virtue. I have 8 token-makers main and 2 more in the board, so that might be enough. What do you guys think?
#Detention Sphere is a decent card and is probably more suited for the SB as well as Blessed Alliance imho, by moving them you can play 3x Path to Exile in the maindeck which can be good in various creature match-ups.
I would also go with Chandra ToD over Sorin SV (it isn't very good outside of a dedicated token strategy) which is also the only black card in the deck.
I just had a brainstorm - it might not be good but I think I can replace the missing Doubling Season with a Bring to Light! If I don't need DS, I can use it to find any of my planeswalkers, or the detention sphere, or any hate enchantment... potentially on turn three.
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Creatures (10)
2x Eternal Witness
4x Arbor Elf
2x Lotus Cobra
1x Hornet Queen
1x World Breaker
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Utopia Sprawl
1x Overgrowth
1x Explore
3x Glittering Wish
2x Primal Command
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Ajani Vengeant
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Nahiri, the Harbinger
2x Gideon Jura
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Fulminator Mage
2x Genesis Hydra
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1x Obstinate Baloth
2x Primal Command
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Slaughter Games
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
Switched to wishboard this week. Previously was maindeck +1 Nicol Bolas, +1 Genesis Hydra, +1 Rings of Brighthearth, -3 Glittering wish.
Thoughts on single cards:
1)Not playing right now
Doubling season - does nothing by itself, makes us play more bad cards. Will never register this one.
Blood moon - It is good, and gave me a lot of free wins, but it is only good when they don't know about it(i.e. at some big events). In LGS they know about it after 2-3 FNM's, and start to fetch basics, so i pulled back on this one.
Rings of Brighthearth - It is really good when it is good, but sometimes it is a blank. Maybe worth it in a very grindy meta, but then again a lot of grindy decks play K-command (Jund, Grixis), so i'm not sure.
Oath of Liliana - Want to try one in 75. Maybe next week
Vraska the Unseen - slow, 1st ability does literally nothing. Maybe a necessary evil in a certain meta.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - May be worth giving a shot, but she's pretty average. Gets better in game 2, where they attack your manabase. I dont own one right now, but maybe slip in a singleton in near future.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - a win more card. 90% of the time Hornet Queen gets it done, and she is castable. Can't say the same about Emrakul
Other mana dorks - we are already vulnerable enough to sweepers. No reason to become more vulnerable here. The ones i play can make 2+ mana per turn, so the are clearly worth it.
Token-making Walkers (Gideon AoZ, Xenagos, Sorin SV, Nissa VoZ(yuck!)) - we are not a dedicated token deck, even though a lot of our wins are made via tokens.
Blue walkers - I'm not playing Blue, but if would, +1 Ral Zarek and +1 Jace AoT seems good. Tamiyo is straight unplayable.
And a lot of other cards, i tested a bunch of on-color stuff.
2)Cards i'm playing right now:
4x Arbor Elf, 4x Utopia sprawl, 3x Garruk Wildspeaker - this is the best ramp engine. A bit reluctant on 3rd Garruk, but he's one of our main wincons, so he stays for now.
2x Lotus Cobra, 1x explore, 1x Overgrowth - these are my "ramp flex slots". Currently testing this combination.
Chandra, Pyromaster - she is better than ToD - can play lands and repeatedly kills with plus ability.
Liliana, the Last Hope - she is THE reason we are playing the black splash. Kills with plus, and she is really your last hope in some matchups (Infect) and simply good in other (Affinity, Jund)
Ajani Vengeant is not stellar, but we need some anti-burn cards.
Gideon Jura and Nahiri, the Harbinger are our "midrange" walkers. They kill stuff, they win the game, they are stone cold good.
Primal Command + Eternal Witness is why we win the long game and don't run out of gas.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is my pet card. I will never remove him from the deck, and he does win games.
Glittering wish is the new addition, can't really say much about it, except that it is stellar vs. Affinity
Crumble to Dust is our only way to beat Tron. You have it - you win. You don't have it - you lose.
Genesis Hydra comes in against blue control decks (which is for some reason popular in our LGS), and is a great way to utilize mana. One maindeck copy is good for finding your noncreature wincons via Primal Command
That was a relatively long post, so i'll save thoughts on specific matchups for later post. Dredge is the nightmare, though.
I do like Sorin, but the B in the mana cost is probably not necessary. I'm also hesitant to play Chandra, Torch of Defiance because of the RR. In my Rakdos control deck she is amazing, since the top card is often useful in keeping me (and her) alive. In this deck I agree with kuzmich that Chandra, Pyromaster is better despite the weak ultimate.
1)2-1 vs. GR Valakut. Lost game1, crumbled him to dust game 2 and 3
2)2-1 vs. Jund. Game 1 stuck on 1 land for 5 turns, game 2 and 3 midranged him to death. There was an interesting moment where i played command making him topdeck his Liliana of the Veil and finding sideboarded Baloth, so when he replayed the Liliana, he passed the turn without activating her
3)0-2 vs. Melira combo. This is where loss of Lilianas hurt the most, and to make things worse i didnt have Firespout in my wishboard. Plus i haven't really tested this matchup, so that's an expected result. However, I don't think it is that bad of a matchup, i just need to tune up decklist (and skill, lol) a bit.
@daviusminimus :
1)I am 100% sure that Emrakul (and Nahiri #3 and #4) is an overkill. My main deck is Kiki-chord combo, and i play there the exact same combination - 2x Nahiri, 0 Emrakul. Let's get more elaborate on this one.
Usually, we are slower than the opponent, that means we have to play control for first 3-4-5 turns, and we usually minus Nahiri. By the time we can ultimate her, we are already winning, and don't really need that much for it. Most common kill for me is Hornet queen + Garruk ult, which is 21 trampling flying deathtouch damage even without dorks.
That doesnt change much even if we are the beatdown, or play "fast" Nahiri for the ult. if we are playing against a control deck - it can happen game1, especially when we are going first, but game2 you will never resolve your "fast" Nahiri through their bazillion of negates, and it takes only two hits from colonnade to kill her in the long run. By the way, the reason why i put quotes on fast is that turn 5 emrakul is not that fast by modern standards, they can just ignore Nahiri and kill you by that time.
2) Glittering wish is by no means something tested, and i feel underwhelmed by it too. But i think it can be the key for beating this diverse format. The main selling point for it is not that it can bring dedicated hate game1 (while it feels great when you do it), but that it can be an answer when you need it, and a threat otherwise. Surely you can't PtE your opponent to oblivion And for the commands - i already play 4 in 75, or do you mean maindeck?
3)Why do you feel that witness+command is jammed? We play all the good stuff from devotion shell, and dont play all the do-nothings like BTE and selkie. Again, why more walkers would be better? Synergy is good, but you need all your pieces to play their specific roles, and we do not gain a ton of value by simply playing a lot of cards with type planeswalker, and for them to have the same walker type is for us to have a lot of blanks in our hand from time to time. Witnesses and commands have their respective roles which they play good. Against a lot of decks (namely Valakut, Tron, Ad Nauseum) we are transforming into a weird ponza-style deck, and a big part of this "plan b" relies on having commands and witnesses in our 75. Even when we are not doing this, they are the only "straight" card advantage our deck has.
4)I did say sweepers, not bolts. Anger of the gods is on the peak right now, so i want my deck not to be crippled by it. Plus "hard" wrath effects like supreme verdict or the wrath itself can hurt our plan A too, so diversification of our ramp and threats helps mitigate the damage here. Besides, what's the draw of playing Caryatid anyway? She can't power up a 5-mana threat on turn 3, and 7-mana threat on turn 4, while costing 2 mana which is a lot.
Last, but not the least - Worship, like Blood Moon, does not give you free win against a good player - they will always bring in enchantment hate against you.
been playing this deck online but still missing Doubling Season on paper.
I've been playing this deck replacing Doubling season with 4 Gilder Bairn
It only doubles a single target but it can be even more annoying then doubling season. Let's say you double Gideon on each turn and force creatures to attack him...
Also it can untap in the damage phase if you attacked to tap it. Tamyio and Ral Zarek can tap it too. It's more of a control kind of strategy with all the planeswalker and you also don't have much answers to fast combo deck but it's working well and it's fun.
But in my opinion it is a little slow. Which matchups allow you to activate him? Maybe eldrazi..
P.S. Played a little more with wishboard version. You can now activate Chandra, Pyromaster's ultimate - 5 relevant targets in the maindeck, plus maybe more out of sideboard - both triple wish and triple command is pure gasoline.
Tested ~20 games against Burn - is a very tough matchup. You can win only if you are going first and their hand is on the slow side. Postboard gets a little better - as long as opponent does not know you sideboard plan.
In my local store's meta it seems this deck is way too slow to really get many wins and I never get to the point where 5+CMC walkers are viable. I used to run Ellspeth, Gideon, and a couple other 6CMC walkers and they would never leave my hand before the game was over. So I have resorted to a 4CMC limit on walkers except for 1 slot because Vraska is awesome... but for the most part I try to keep the CMC as low as possible.
My best moment with this deck so far is having a Doubling Season on the board, playing Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, ulting him immediately to steal an opponents Nahiri, the Harbinger that a Jeskai Nahiri player had on the board, and then using their own Nahiri against them. Definitely a fun interaction for sure.
Here is the list I am running at the moment:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Enchantments (13)
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Blood Moon
3 Doubling Season
Planeswalkers (14)
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Ral Zarek
2 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Vraska the Unseen
5 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Gavony Township
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Westvale Abbey
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Fog
2 Worship
2 Path to Exile
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R
Lately I've been getting a lot of positive results, but a lot of them came from my opponents' mistakes. But again, isn't that a part of why we play non-conventional decks?
Regarding Liliana, The Last Hope - she is so good that i don't even think about not playing her, and moreover, thinking about playing 3. Together with wish they add to our deck turn 2-3 interaction, which helps in a lot of fast matchups - Infect, Affinity, Jund, even Eldrazi. +2 Overgrown Tomb -2 Forest is not that big of a price to pay.
Regarding Glittering Wish - Since i've switched to this version i've never wanted to come back, even though old version is better against some decks. First, let's talk drawbacks. Wish strains our mana a lot. Liliana is double black, sure, but she is fixed by oath, while wish is not. With wish in the deck, the correct play is always name white on the first Utopia Sprawl (if you dont need another color asap) - even without wish in our hand.
All that said, wish is the gas. I've somehow finalized my wishboard, here is the current one:
3x Crumble to Dust
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Fulminator Mage
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Primal Command
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Slaughter Games
1x Firespout
1x Wilt-leaf Liege
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
..And #16 is Melira, Sylvok Outcast. I can swap Liege, Wheel and Melira depending on my scouting before the tournament Liege is for all decks with Liliana of the Veil(BGx,8-Rack, Mardu midrange), Melira is against Inkmoth Nexus decks(Infect, Affinity), and wheel is obviously against graveyard decks and mill. Other notable card is Lightning Helix if your meta is aggro-heavy.
Second Ajani was moved from main to side, replaced him with Chandra ToD. Sigarda was a win-more, and I had to cut Command#2 and Hydra#2. Maelstrom Pulse was always mediocre in testing so it got the axe too. Other mediocre card is Slaughter Games, but for now it is in the deck.
One important thing is that while Wish indeed makes our relevant play a turn slower, it adds so much consistency that in the long run you will spend a lot more turns without it just praying and trying to topdeck something relevant.
Regarding matchups - I still don't have enough info for reliable statistics, but here's what i have:
Burn is the worst matchup, but it requires a lot of skill(or luck, lol) from the Burn pilot, so I get free wins here and there.
Tron is the nightmare pre-board, but postboard you can turn 3 Crumble to Dust him all day long. Or even turn 2 if you are lucky enough. You can win pre-board, but he need to stumble, or you need to go first and play something like t2 wish for Fulminator -> t3 fulminator ->t4 Witness/Liliana getting back fulminator and replaying him. Or even t3 Nicol Bolas =)
Infect is hard, but not unwinnable. Sure, you can get double t3 killed from time to time, but on the other hand, t2 Liliana or t3 Gideon are not that easy for them to overcome. Then you stick Ruric Thar or Melira and they are done. Mulligan here agressively, a lot of generally keepable hands are do-nothings against infect.
Blue control, creature combo, Valakut decks are average. Depends on their configuration it can get from slightly better to unwinnable (looking at you, combo elves.) But in most cases our average hands are more powerful than their.
Non-blue grindy decks - Jund/Junk, Mardu, Pox, whatever.. =) - Slightly better. In general, we have the more powerful plan, and can fight through their discard.
Bant Eldrazi - surprisingly good. They are slow enough for us to play all our ramp, and the we can Gideon/Nahiri/Chandra all their creatures and Bolas for the win.
Affinity - can t3 kill us, but otherwise we can buy ourselves enough time for Fracturing Gust and boom.
I have no info on Dredge, but I suppose it is not good at all =)
If you want info on some other matchups, or go a little more in-depth on one of this, feel free to ask!
Notes about my version - It is Bant only, and has the sub-focus on tokens, and a few interaction cards since I can't combo as fast as the versions with 3-4 Doubling Seasons. Regarding colors - It's just a bit cleaner, simpler and less painful. I've found I really don't need Nahiri because Jace can cast an Emrakul from my deck (or your deck), or Jace can cast a Tamiyo from my deck, and Tamiyo can cast an Emrakul from my hand. Here's the current list:
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
8 Planeswalkers for Tokens, and to Keep me Alive
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Gideon Jura
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Narset Transcendent
12 Enchantments
2 Doubling Season
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Oath of Gideon
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Arbor Elf
4 Instants
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Path to Exile
20 Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
3 Negate
2 Sundering Growth
1 Gideon Jura
1 Bribery
1 Idyllic Tutor
The flex walkers are Nissa, Vital Force and Narset Trancendent. If you haven't actually played with Narset, she's much better than you'd think. This deck has 31/60 targets for the +1, which puts her up to 7 loyalty on the turn you play her... without Doubling Season. The -2 Rebound effect is less relevant, but powerful when it's applicable, like to Path something, Bribery something, Tutor something, or gain 4 life. And the Ultimate wrecks almost every deck. She's my new fave...
The loosest card in the deck is Gavony Township... powerful with tokens, but I don't like that it can't play a T1 G, so I'd never play more than one. It could also be a Westvale Abbey with the same caveat.
Reporting results from last night LGS tournament.
I went 3-1, losing to Sultai Control.
R1 2-0 VS Esper Control
R1 2-1 VS Ad Nauseam
R3 0-2 VS Sultai Control
R4 2-0 VS Fairies
4 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Canopy Vista
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Gavony Township
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Sylvan Cariatyd
2 Gilder Bairn
Spells
2 Doubling Season
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Gideon Jura
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Ral Zarek
3 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Game 1 vs Esper I had 2 Nissa, only 1 green land so I went for a token and counters aggro, playing Doubling Season on T4 and creating a massive army. The guy then thought I was playing a GW Token Aggro deck. So game 2 he wasn't prepared at all. Doubling on T3 resolved and then Jace on T4. He conceaded once he realized it was the Planeswalker deck and he wasn't ready for it at all.
Game 1 vs Ad Nauseam I was on the Draw and he put Phyrexian unlife on T3 so instead of playing Doubling season I played Nahiri and exiled Unlife. T4 I played doubling season but he killed me before I could ult nahiri or found any other planeswalker. Game 2 I combo'd T4 with Jace. Game 3 was a longer game but I casted a Tamyio, found Ral Zarek, got 2 extra Turns and I top decked Emrakul so he conceaded.
Game 1 Vs Sultai control, too much discard, mulligan to 5 both games, didn't find Blood Moon on Game 2. Was horrid.
Game 1 Vs Fairies, I had Jace and Nissa without Doubling, when I found Doubling Season on T6 I cast it, she bounces back Jace in my hand. I had enough mana to cast him again and won. She didn't realize what doubling season did to Planeswalker. Game 2 I locked her down with Blood Moon on T2 and then I had Nahiri at... 24... blocked by a grafdiggers Cage. Then I was top decking to find any Planeswalker and it took... 13 rounds before she just scoop realizing she would never win. I found Doubling season very late.
VS Discard it's really hard... you need to find either Leyline or Blood Moon on your starting hand on G2 AND G3 because G1 is almost unwinnable. That being said I had lot's of fun with this deck. Specially watching your oppening thinking which Planes he should take down first.
Thanks for your report. I still have strong doubts about Gilder Bairn, though. How did it perform during the tournament?
Gilder Bairn is just bad.