Thanks for the info. For Kambal would eidolon not be better. Having a 4 toughness butt really helps. The thing for kambal which is good is that it is also good vs burn
I've never tested eidolon, so I can't say, but the toughness difference seems negligible with how little bolt is played right now. And the lifegain synergies are always good. Forgot about burn, haven't played against it in a long time.
@Isinfier:
Grats on the 4-1!
Do you feel Kalitas is still worth it at the moment? 3/4 is pretty small these days and with triple Finks + Tusk + Kambal your Burn MU seems more than fine. I like the synergy with Push, just not sure if there isn't a better option. Generally I feel that 4cmc creatures are in a really awkward spot - 4 is pretty expensive and still dies to Fetch-Push :/
Tested a bunch against Death's Shadow Jund lately, both with and without Souls, and interestingly I've found that the Souls aren't really as needed as I would've thought. This deck generally puts out enough bodies anyway, and as long as we have value guys like Voice and Finks we can give them a fairly hard time. Souls hitting in the air is nice, but Resto/Archangel/Sigarda are much better for finishing. Attacking for 2 or 3 can be extremely deadly for us if they have a DS out and find their Battle Rage. Matchup is extremely interesting, seems slightly favored for us in general tho.
@Kambal
Kambal does something differet than Eidolon. He's great at punishing cantrip-heavy decks (Tron, combo, some Control/Tempo decks) and gaining us a bunch of life (sometimes relevant against Valakut or AdNaus). Sometimes he stops certain combo decks (like Cheeri0s), but he's mainly an agressive card whereas Eidolon is a defensive one (much better at stopping combo, much worse at pressuring). Also he randomly completely bodies Burn if they can't Searing Blaze him fast. CAN also be great against DS Jund but requires tight play so they don't get to abuse him for their own gameplan.
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Went 3-1 (Xmage), matchups were: 2-0 vs RG Tron (opp had Ugin g1, misplayed and died to Angelfeeder next turn ), 2-0 vs Grixis Delver (opp screwed on lands for two turns game 2 and didn't kill Kambal over Finks and Voice, which dealt like 8-10 damage), 2-1 vs Kiki Chord (g2 opp went double 2/2 Nacatl + Voice into my Thoughtseize + Ooze + flood draw for the absolute stomp got him back g3 in the long grind) and 1-2 vs RG Ponza (opp had too many Baloths for me to get through thanks to Blood Moon shutting down my Sigarda, but eh, rough matchup is rough).
Played a lot against Death's Shadow yesterday with this list (slightly changed, had a Rallier and mainboard Pharika), MU feels fairly good. Not sure about the Melira, mainly in there for online comboing if people force me to go through it and for the ability to go Seer+Melira+Anafenza+Finks for infinite +1/+1 counters. Redcap might not be needed, might replace him with a Thrun or somesuch.
Sideboard also very much WIP. Tried Thoughtseize again, didn't like it much again, gonna play around with the 3 slots a bit. Probably gonna end up going up to 3 Lost Legacy and adding 2 versatile answers like Decay or Pulse. Celestial Purge was pretty neat, unsure if it's better than Decay tho. Also kinda want to add a Teeg or Pithing Needles,.
I think with not playing souls and playing the anafenza combo why not just play abzan coco? The deck is far more consistent for that game plan. Phrakia is a spicy bit of tech. What other matchups can you use it for? Playing FNM tonight with my same list from last weekend. Hope i run half as well!
Having played with souls quite a lot lately I've found it doesn't really add much to the toolbox plan, which I feel the deck wants to focus on, as it's the only thing that separates us from other Abzan decks. Adding more combos gives the deck more angles of attack, a potential turn 3 and 4 kill and thus more outs against non-interactive decks. Not sure how much of the combo is needed (added 2 of each to see if it'll be too much), but so far all the cards have served a purpose beyond being part of a combo. Especially the Scry with Seer (especially with Voice) can be fairly relevant. We still are more flexible and less hate-able than CoCo and generally have a better fair plan with Sigarda and whatnot. Two tournaments over the weekend, curious to see how it'll go.
Pharika is a trick I've taken from the old Melira CoCo lists, seems pretty decent at the moment with everything being Eldrazi and Death's Shdaows. I've played her briefly a while ago where performed well against control and tempo as well as against all kinds of midrange. Also yard hate that doesn't die to Push I guess.
Interesting new list Pathrogas ! Let us know how it went. However, I also think that if we want to go the Melira+Finks+Seer combo, we should just go Abzan coco and add Thune/Feeder in it. And by the way, that deck made some top 8 lately.
Here is my deck :
Creatures: 26
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Sin Collector
1 Spike Feeder
1 Restoration Angel
2 Siege Rhino
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells:12
4 Path to Exile
2 Chord of Calling
3 Eldritch Evolution
3 Lingering Souls
Sideboard:15
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stony Silence
2 Lost Legacy
2 Rest in Peace
2 Collective Brutality
And my results so far :
Win : 22
Loss : 14
W/L : 61%
Tough MU : Elves, Merfolk, Tron, RW Prison
Best MU : GBx (Jund and Junk), Ad Nauseum, Death Shadow, Grixis Control/Delver
Even : Burn, Jeskai Control, Dredge (with the 2 RIP)
So far, I like no Spellskite main (no infect in the meta right now). I like 3 Lingering Souls (help me Chord a lot). I added Collective Brutality in SB lately since I had hard time against tribal/burn. I consider them for main deck, but I would have to cut Chord and without Chord, combo seem to hard to pull...
Right now, I'm not sure the deck is better than Abzan Coco. Our clock is not as fast. However, if Dredge keep gaining some popularity back, I think our deck will be in a good position, since we don't suffer from grave hate as much as Abzan Coco do.
When Amonkhet will be release, I will try to replace 1 Stony Silence with Manglehorn.
There is a new combo deck in town. Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies. I think it will outclass most combo deck. Maybee we could find a place in our deck for this, but we probly need Collected Compagny
Went 3-2 at the LGS today, matchups were: 0-2 vs Death's Shadow Jund (tight g2, crap hand g1), 2-0 vs BW 8Rack (Finks, Voice, Rhino doing lots of work), 2-1 vs Abzan Midrange (g1 opp sat on 2 lands without black and died, g2 I mull to 6, keep a 1-lander with 3 two-drops and never see the second land, g3 was super close and grindy, Archangel eventually survived and won me the game vs a 8/8 Ooze), 2-0 vs 4c Loam/Dredge (Angelfeeder combo g1, opp misplayed g2 and allowed me to keep his board clear), 1-2 vs Eldrazi Tron (g1 Anafenza/Finks combo into Angel wins, g2 I was close to comboing again but was disrupted by Surgical, g3 I got stomped by t3 Tron+Ballista+Collar). Changed 3 cards from the last list: -1 Seer, -1 Melira, -1 Redcap, +1 Teeg, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Thrun. Spirit was good as usual, Teeg and Thrun were never relevant. The additional combo felt good, gave me more options all day.
@Vizier/Druid:
Agree with D90Dennis14 here. Unless I'm missing something the combo doesn't do anything on it's own, and the creatures aren't great on their either. I can see it in a deck with Quillspike and Hapatra, but so far it feels much better suited for a dedicated combo deck like Melira CoCo than our lists.
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Let me explain ! The combo is really sweet and very strong. You need Devoted and Vizier on board. You can easily do that on turn theee with mana dork or via Collected Compagny. After that, all you need is either Duskwatcher, Walking Ballista of Chord in your hand. If you have Ballista you cast it on 20. If you have Duskwatcher you cast your entire deck and if you have Chord you get Duskwatcher and do the same. Combo is faster and easier to pull then Finks+Seer+Melira/Anafenza. All you need is 2 piece on board (2 CMC each) and 1 of the 10 others cards in your hand (in my list I play 4 Chord, 2 Ballista and 4 Duskwatcher). If you playtest it let me know what you think
i think the combo is easily disrupted and needs too much other stuff. Happy to proved wrong though. so i was browsing the mtggoldfish for new MTGO 5-0 lists and came across this one. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/617792#online
Very sweet list that goes for just straight value and no combo. Good to see more people trying the deck out. I posted my GPT thing on reddit last week to hopefully get more people playing the deck.
For the FNM went 3-1 (same list as last week). Lost to dredge 1-2 game 1 to a great conflagrate and no 3rd land and game 3 to an insane opening, 8 power on turn 2. Beat U tron, UB mill and abzan company (see linvala). Have to redspectfully disagree with you Pathrogas on the souls thing. Most of my wins came from angel and some souls tokens being buffed. Most of the time for me wins are from playing super tight and all those little 1 points of damage add up. The meta could shift but at the moment souls is super relevant.
Going forward some of the choices in that 5-0 are very good and i might incorporate them. Ravenous trap seems especially good
Congratz devtin for your result. I also like that new list. Espacially the 2 TS main with Decay and Pulse. He is not playing the combo however. I have not decided yet if I want to keep it or not either.
For the new combo, I don't see how it's easier to disrupt then the current Abzan coco combo ? In fact I don't see in any way how it can't be better that Abzan coco combo. However, Im not comparing it with our deck yet. But I see it replacing Abzan coco easily. You only need 2 cards (over 3 for Abzan coco) on board. So it's easier to pull in one turn when opponent have no kill or mana or via a Coco.
Anyway, back to our deck :). I also have another question on your list. Have you played some game against burn ? How well are you doing ?
@devtin:
I feel you didn't understand me quite right there. Souls is a very powerful card that does things in our and in any other deck, we don't have to argue about that fact. I was talking about that it can't be searched up and doesn't provide a specific effect like an actual toolbox creatures. It's "just" a good card, like Goyf, making it great for a midrange playstyle as it's almost never dead. The card isn't inherently good for a deck wanting to solve problems with tutors, it just is so good that it won't be bad most of the time.
Yuhy's list definately has some spicy ideas (Pendelhaven looks sweet with Souls). It also continues the trend of taking more and more utility out for bigger threats, which I find interesting. While I like how tight the list looks on paper, I feel these type of lists don't need the tutors at all and would be better off without them. They're not solving any problems with the Evolutions mainboard except graveyard strategies (which is probably the biggest strength this archetype has going for it), so why not cut them, streamline the list and be a more consistent Little Kid Abzan or Abzan Midrange deck?
The Vizier/Druid combo definately seems fun and might have potential, but it's defintely it's own thing, not something we could easily include here, as it takes a million cards we wouldn't normally run.
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Congratz devtin for your result. I also like that new list. Espacially the 2 TS main with Decay and Pulse. He is not playing the combo however. I have not decided yet if I want to keep it or not either.
For the new combo, I don't see how it's easier to disrupt then the current Abzan coco combo ? In fact I don't see in any way how it can't be better that Abzan coco combo. However, Im not comparing it with our deck yet. But I see it replacing Abzan coco easily. You only need 2 cards (over 3 for Abzan coco) on board. So it's easier to pull in one turn when opponent have no kill or mana or via a Coco.
Anyway, back to our deck :). I also have another question on your list. Have you played some game against burn ? How well are you doing ?
Im confused with 2 cards vs 3? You do need 3 cards otherwise you just have infinite mana. You need to do something with it? I could definitely see it with abzan coco deck or kiki chord. We will have to wait and see
For burn i am currently 8-2. I find that sometimes they have a spell heavy hand and thats tough. Otherwise we have enough pressure.
@devtin:
I feel you didn't understand me quite right there. Souls is a very powerful card that does things in our and in any other deck, we don't have to argue about that fact. I was talking about that it can't be searched up and doesn't provide a specific effect like an actual toolbox creatures. It's "just" a good card, like Goyf, making it great for a midrange playstyle as it's almost never dead. The card isn't inherently good for a deck wanting to solve problems with tutors, it just is so good that it won't be bad most of the time.
Yuhy's list definately has some spicy ideas (Pendelhaven looks sweet with Souls). It also continues the trend of taking more and more utility out for bigger threats, which I find interesting. While I like how tight the list looks on paper, I feel these type of lists don't need the tutors at all and would be better off without them. They're not solving any problems with the Evolutions mainboard except graveyard strategies (which is probably the biggest strength this archetype has going for it), so why not cut them, streamline the list and be a more consistent Little Kid Abzan or Abzan Midrange deck?
The Vizier/Druid combo definately seems fun and might have potential, but it's defintely it's own thing, not something we could easily include here, as it takes a million cards we wouldn't normally run.
Thanks for the clarification. I can see where you are coming from now. I guess it comes down to how much of a toolbox do we want to run. The only point I would make to that is that the lists which arent toolbox heavy are putting up results. Also the reason I like the three evos plus a bullet like pontiff is that it is like running 4 copies of the card in the deck. I agree that the deck posted is more good cards than utility but in the side he does have bullets. I guess I see tutors more as getting an answer to different situations. Say i need to path that blocker then evo for witness to rebuy a path. Or they are at 3. Evo for the rhino to finish them off. Tutors give us that flexibility rather than relying on a top deck. I personally would rather have more bullets than that 5-0 list but thats just me
Congratz devtin for your result. I also like that new list. Espacially the 2 TS main with Decay and Pulse. He is not playing the combo however. I have not decided yet if I want to keep it or not either.
For the new combo, I don't see how it's easier to disrupt then the current Abzan coco combo ? In fact I don't see in any way how it can't be better that Abzan coco combo. However, Im not comparing it with our deck yet. But I see it replacing Abzan coco easily. You only need 2 cards (over 3 for Abzan coco) on board. So it's easier to pull in one turn when opponent have no kill or mana or via a Coco.
Anyway, back to our deck :). I also have another question on your list. Have you played some game against burn ? How well are you doing ?
Im confused with 2 cards vs 3? You do need 3 cards otherwise you just have infinite mana. You need to do something with it? I could definitely see it with abzan coco deck or kiki chord. We will have to wait and see
For burn i am currently 8-2. I find that sometimes they have a spell heavy hand and thats tough. Otherwise we have enough pressure.
@devtin:
I feel you didn't understand me quite right there. Souls is a very powerful card that does things in our and in any other deck, we don't have to argue about that fact. I was talking about that it can't be searched up and doesn't provide a specific effect like an actual toolbox creatures. It's "just" a good card, like Goyf, making it great for a midrange playstyle as it's almost never dead. The card isn't inherently good for a deck wanting to solve problems with tutors, it just is so good that it won't be bad most of the time.
Yuhy's list definately has some spicy ideas (Pendelhaven looks sweet with Souls). It also continues the trend of taking more and more utility out for bigger threats, which I find interesting. While I like how tight the list looks on paper, I feel these type of lists don't need the tutors at all and would be better off without them. They're not solving any problems with the Evolutions mainboard except graveyard strategies (which is probably the biggest strength this archetype has going for it), so why not cut them, streamline the list and be a more consistent Little Kid Abzan or Abzan Midrange deck?
The Vizier/Druid combo definately seems fun and might have potential, but it's defintely it's own thing, not something we could easily include here, as it takes a million cards we wouldn't normally run.
Thanks for the clarification. I can see where you are coming from now. I guess it comes down to how much of a toolbox do we want to run. The only point I would make to that is that the lists which arent toolbox heavy are putting up results. Also the reason I like the three evos plus a bullet like pontiff is that it is like running 4 copies of the card in the deck. I agree that the deck posted is more good cards than utility but in the side he does have bullets. I guess I see tutors more as getting an answer to different situations. Say i need to path that blocker then evo for witness to rebuy a path. Or they are at 3. Evo for the rhino to finish them off. Tutors give us that flexibility rather than relying on a top deck. I personally would rather have more bullets than that 5-0 list but thats just me
I just read my last post and it was not clear indeed. I meant 2 cards on the battlefield on the other in your hard, when Abzan coco need all 3 on board. I runned a lot of test and I usually pull the combo really fast (turn 3) if no disruption.
For exemple :
Turn 1 : Bird/Noble
Turn 2 : Devoted or Vizier or another Bird/Noble
Turn 3 : Missing peace (Devoted or Vizier)via hard cast or Coco (if Bird/Noble played on turn 1 and 2) or Chord for 2 (Tapping 3 mana + convoke with 2 creatures).
Then, I go infinite mana and either :
- Cast Duskwatcher from hand, activate his ability to find Ballista
- Cast Ballista as X = 20
- Chord for 2 for Duskwatcher and find Ballista
I have played a lot of Abzan Coco and you can't pull that off that easily and quickly. Fun fact is that you can go GW and run Ghost Quarter main. However, I have to say that Abzan Coco have a better beat down plan.
As for your results against Burn, I'm pretty impress!! I'm 1-3... I think I should move Collective Brut in my main deck...
@devtin:
I also see tutors as answers, which is why I never liked the feeling of only having 3 in my deck with no draw engine. While I agree that the tutors go a long way to help against topdeck dependency in a 1-of deck, we first have to actually find these tutors - and 3 ain't a lot. If we use an Evolution early or get one countered/discarded, the chances of finding a second one are actually pretty slim. I understand the 3 Evo + 1-of's for virtual playsets of bullets, and I love the idea on paper, but in practice the lists I've played like midrange decks that sometimes draw an Orzhov Pontiff for the sick blowouts from nowhere. And in that position I'd prefer just having a higher density of generically powerful, interchangeable cards (say 4 Souls, 4 Goyf, 8 removal, 8 discard, etc) to ensure I'm gonna win the topdeck wars.
@BowAndArrow2:
Burn MU is very draw dependant. I went 7-6 against a very spell-heavy list (no Nacatl) the other day in testing with some fairly horrid draws (Canopy and double Canopy starts maybe 3-4 games) and no Brutalities. Agreed with my friend that the MU is likely more in my favor than was shown, maybe something like 65-70%, depending on draws. That being said, if you face it a lot, Brutalities main will go a long way.
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yep I can see all your points. I guess its just a scale of how much toolbox vs powerful cards you want. There is no true right or wrong answer. Btw how do we get moved to developing competitive? These 5-0s should count for something and we arent abazan midrange or coco
r1 merfolk
g1 he had some iffy draws I guess and I just went to pound town. Resto was pretty important as was gearhulk. g2 He kept a risky hand of 1 land and vial. good news for me as I too took a risk and evolutioned my bird to get rec sage. I was so praying he didn't have a curesecatcher in hand as he could have blown me out pretty hard vialing it in. He didn't. he was too far behind at that point to catch up.
1-0
r2 merfolk...
SO much merfolk this time was a splash for red. g1 I did what my deck did and killed some dudes and beat down. g2 blood moon cut me out of casting white cards which turned out to be my whole hand I had a forest and swamp out. boo. g3 I played poorly for sure and could have prevented some spreading seas. I played pretty loosely and I think it may have cost me the game. I was also perhaps too afraid of blood moon. I'm not sure I would have won but it certainly would have been a different game. I boarded out pontiff and man I wish I hadn't that card is either insane or terrible. At one point I could a wiped 4 creatures. Oh well I think was still the right choice to cut him.
1-1
r3 jeskai nahiri
g1 we go a while and he ends up emrakul'ing me and turns out it didn't do anything lol. sure I was set back but I could still play my hand and was still at a healthy 10 life thanks to thragtusk. He then played elspeth, sun's champion and that ACTUALLY won the game. g2 I had some hate cards and there wasn't much he could do, outside of path, my cards are all so resilient. g3 More hatecards but I was able to evolution into a gearhulk and that shifted the game so hard. He was able to deal with it all eventually but I was sitting on an explosives for sun's champ. Instead, he plays batterskull so I play explosives with enough mana to gavony as well. I got in for exactsies right before he could elspeth. nice.
2-1
r4 gr tron
g1 I was lucky enough to find a ghost quarter before he could get tron and he was never able to find tron in time. When he did I had a path for his coil and killed him. g2 stony silence plus ghost quarters shut him out pretty hard. Was glorious from my point, which is obviously all that matters haha. Tron always leads me to some very hard decisions. For instance, at one point i could witness for either GQ or stony. GQ guarantees he can't tron but silence stops the o-stone he has in hand but leads me open to him playing like a wurmcoil and then karn. I chose stony and indeed he did had coil but I was barely enough ahead That I could just play through the lifegain. Was very close game though.
3-1
Gearhulk was awesome. I won every game it hit the table. Now, he never won me the game on the spot but He helped me though tough spots thragtusk may not have. I really enjoyed having a more diversified top end. At 5 mana he's very easily castable as I did 2 out of the 3 times I played him. Resetting finks, turning a crappy bird into a real threat or acting as a pseudo gavony. What I faced this week was totally different than 2 weeks ago. I think I want to find home for a wrath SB for sure. I do have trouble getting through go wide decks. I'm now 6-1 with this deck. I'm really loving it. I also think my one loss this week could have been prevented had I played better so I still have a very long way to go. This deck is complex!
Thanks for the writeup. Im guessing you have gone for very low to the ground then bullets for game 2. Interesting angle. I wonder if wiltlift liege would be good in this deck
that's a good idea, there's a lot of death shadow variants in my meta (despite me not having yet played one with this list) so liege is probably great. I would trade 1 rhino for 1 liege for sure.
for bullets I need to just find the best combination of them. Most of the time, I really don't need more than 1-2 for any given matchup. I boarded in mindcensor and rec sage a lot so I think they will have a permanent slot. Kataki so far is probably too narrow and sin collector is only just fine. I think I would exchange kataki for anafenza, the foremost or even Kambal, Consul of Allocation, that seems sweet. I also like the idea of manglehorn and selfless spirit. I wasn't impressed with Gaddock Teeg. Not sure what other bullets would be worth.
I unfortunately could not. My FNM last week was a bundle rumble and not modern (only happens on release days). Essentially a giant sealed deck tournament using the cards from the fat pack. Was cut to top 4 I came in 5th always a bridesmaid.
The only real updates I will be having is, slowly pimping the deck (I want to sell/trade my expedition scalding tarn for some of the expedition shocklands) and finding room for a linvala, keeper of silence and an anafenza, the foremost somewhere in the 75. Linvala almost certainly in SB though. Also been toying around with cutting a finks and an evolution for 2 abrupt decay but haven't committed to that yet.
I have been playing modern a lot, but I'm testing 2 news deck. The one I talked earlier with Devoted + Vizier. I made a GPT top 4 with it last week, but lost to Grixis. The deck is just really fast and in my opinion way better than the traditionnal Abzan Coco. I'm also testing a GW Company with Evolution deck, that I find really really sweet.
I will get back to Abzan Evo really soon since I like this deck so much, but I fear I'm gonna miss Collected Company.
Sideboard:15
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stony Silence
2 Lost Legacy
2 Rest in Peace
2 Collective Brutality
Most tough MU so far seem to be Tron. Burn seem better since I added 2 Brutality in sideboard, but still a tough MU. Didn't had the chance to play against Affinity even if it's one of the most deck played right now. What are your win/loss ratio against it ? I'm not sure my deck is ready for Affinity. Dredge and Storm might be ok now since I changed my 2 Surgical for 2 RIP. I have not played against those deck since those change. So when I'm looking at the meta right now on MTGGoldFish, seem like I have a bad MU against tier 1 deck. However, the is sooo good against fair and midrange deck.
Share your results please !
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Grats on the 4-1!
Do you feel Kalitas is still worth it at the moment? 3/4 is pretty small these days and with triple Finks + Tusk + Kambal your Burn MU seems more than fine. I like the synergy with Push, just not sure if there isn't a better option. Generally I feel that 4cmc creatures are in a really awkward spot - 4 is pretty expensive and still dies to Fetch-Push :/
Tested a bunch against Death's Shadow Jund lately, both with and without Souls, and interestingly I've found that the Souls aren't really as needed as I would've thought. This deck generally puts out enough bodies anyway, and as long as we have value guys like Voice and Finks we can give them a fairly hard time. Souls hitting in the air is nice, but Resto/Archangel/Sigarda are much better for finishing. Attacking for 2 or 3 can be extremely deadly for us if they have a DS out and find their Battle Rage. Matchup is extremely interesting, seems slightly favored for us in general tho.
@Kambal
Kambal does something differet than Eidolon. He's great at punishing cantrip-heavy decks (Tron, combo, some Control/Tempo decks) and gaining us a bunch of life (sometimes relevant against Valakut or AdNaus). Sometimes he stops certain combo decks (like Cheeri0s), but he's mainly an agressive card whereas Eidolon is a defensive one (much better at stopping combo, much worse at pressuring). Also he randomly completely bodies Burn if they can't Searing Blaze him fast. CAN also be great against DS Jund but requires tight play so they don't get to abuse him for their own gameplan.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
List
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Viscera Seer
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Anafenza, Tree-Kin Spirit
1 Spellskite
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Spike Feeder
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Restoration Angel
1 Siege Rhino
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Eldritch Evolution
3 Chord of Calling
4 Path to Exile
Lands (22)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Fulminator Mage
Played a lot against Death's Shadow yesterday with this list (slightly changed, had a Rallier and mainboard Pharika), MU feels fairly good. Not sure about the Melira, mainly in there for online comboing if people force me to go through it and for the ability to go Seer+Melira+Anafenza+Finks for infinite +1/+1 counters. Redcap might not be needed, might replace him with a Thrun or somesuch.
Sideboard also very much WIP. Tried Thoughtseize again, didn't like it much again, gonna play around with the 3 slots a bit. Probably gonna end up going up to 3 Lost Legacy and adding 2 versatile answers like Decay or Pulse. Celestial Purge was pretty neat, unsure if it's better than Decay tho. Also kinda want to add a Teeg or Pithing Needles,.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Pharika is a trick I've taken from the old Melira CoCo lists, seems pretty decent at the moment with everything being Eldrazi and Death's Shdaows. I've played her briefly a while ago where performed well against control and tempo as well as against all kinds of midrange. Also yard hate that doesn't die to Push I guess.
Good luck at FNM
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Here is my deck :
Creatures: 26
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Sin Collector
1 Spike Feeder
1 Restoration Angel
2 Siege Rhino
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells:12
4 Path to Exile
2 Chord of Calling
3 Eldritch Evolution
3 Lingering Souls
Lands:22
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stony Silence
2 Lost Legacy
2 Rest in Peace
2 Collective Brutality
And my results so far :
Win : 22
Loss : 14
W/L : 61%
Tough MU : Elves, Merfolk, Tron, RW Prison
Best MU : GBx (Jund and Junk), Ad Nauseum, Death Shadow, Grixis Control/Delver
Even : Burn, Jeskai Control, Dredge (with the 2 RIP)
So far, I like no Spellskite main (no infect in the meta right now). I like 3 Lingering Souls (help me Chord a lot). I added Collective Brutality in SB lately since I had hard time against tribal/burn. I consider them for main deck, but I would have to cut Chord and without Chord, combo seem to hard to pull...
Right now, I'm not sure the deck is better than Abzan Coco. Our clock is not as fast. However, if Dredge keep gaining some popularity back, I think our deck will be in a good position, since we don't suffer from grave hate as much as Abzan Coco do.
When Amonkhet will be release, I will try to replace 1 Stony Silence with Manglehorn.
Without a 3rd piece it doesn't do anything to actually win the game and just generates mana.
@Vizier/Druid:
Agree with D90Dennis14 here. Unless I'm missing something the combo doesn't do anything on it's own, and the creatures aren't great on their either. I can see it in a deck with Quillspike and Hapatra, but so far it feels much better suited for a dedicated combo deck like Melira CoCo than our lists.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Eldritch Evolution
1 Eternal Witness
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Path to Exile
1 Pendelhaven
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Restoration Angel
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Windswept Heath
2 Collective Brutality
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
Very sweet list that goes for just straight value and no combo. Good to see more people trying the deck out. I posted my GPT thing on reddit last week to hopefully get more people playing the deck.
For the FNM went 3-1 (same list as last week). Lost to dredge 1-2 game 1 to a great conflagrate and no 3rd land and game 3 to an insane opening, 8 power on turn 2. Beat U tron, UB mill and abzan company (see linvala). Have to redspectfully disagree with you Pathrogas on the souls thing. Most of my wins came from angel and some souls tokens being buffed. Most of the time for me wins are from playing super tight and all those little 1 points of damage add up. The meta could shift but at the moment souls is super relevant.
Going forward some of the choices in that 5-0 are very good and i might incorporate them. Ravenous trap seems especially good
For the new combo, I don't see how it's easier to disrupt then the current Abzan coco combo ? In fact I don't see in any way how it can't be better that Abzan coco combo. However, Im not comparing it with our deck yet. But I see it replacing Abzan coco easily. You only need 2 cards (over 3 for Abzan coco) on board. So it's easier to pull in one turn when opponent have no kill or mana or via a Coco.
Anyway, back to our deck :). I also have another question on your list. Have you played some game against burn ? How well are you doing ?
I feel you didn't understand me quite right there. Souls is a very powerful card that does things in our and in any other deck, we don't have to argue about that fact. I was talking about that it can't be searched up and doesn't provide a specific effect like an actual toolbox creatures. It's "just" a good card, like Goyf, making it great for a midrange playstyle as it's almost never dead. The card isn't inherently good for a deck wanting to solve problems with tutors, it just is so good that it won't be bad most of the time.
Yuhy's list definately has some spicy ideas (Pendelhaven looks sweet with Souls). It also continues the trend of taking more and more utility out for bigger threats, which I find interesting. While I like how tight the list looks on paper, I feel these type of lists don't need the tutors at all and would be better off without them. They're not solving any problems with the Evolutions mainboard except graveyard strategies (which is probably the biggest strength this archetype has going for it), so why not cut them, streamline the list and be a more consistent Little Kid Abzan or Abzan Midrange deck?
The Vizier/Druid combo definately seems fun and might have potential, but it's defintely it's own thing, not something we could easily include here, as it takes a million cards we wouldn't normally run.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Im confused with 2 cards vs 3? You do need 3 cards otherwise you just have infinite mana. You need to do something with it? I could definitely see it with abzan coco deck or kiki chord. We will have to wait and see
For burn i am currently 8-2. I find that sometimes they have a spell heavy hand and thats tough. Otherwise we have enough pressure.
Thanks for the clarification. I can see where you are coming from now. I guess it comes down to how much of a toolbox do we want to run. The only point I would make to that is that the lists which arent toolbox heavy are putting up results. Also the reason I like the three evos plus a bullet like pontiff is that it is like running 4 copies of the card in the deck. I agree that the deck posted is more good cards than utility but in the side he does have bullets. I guess I see tutors more as getting an answer to different situations. Say i need to path that blocker then evo for witness to rebuy a path. Or they are at 3. Evo for the rhino to finish them off. Tutors give us that flexibility rather than relying on a top deck. I personally would rather have more bullets than that 5-0 list but thats just me
I just read my last post and it was not clear indeed. I meant 2 cards on the battlefield on the other in your hard, when Abzan coco need all 3 on board. I runned a lot of test and I usually pull the combo really fast (turn 3) if no disruption.
For exemple :
Turn 1 : Bird/Noble
Turn 2 : Devoted or Vizier or another Bird/Noble
Turn 3 : Missing peace (Devoted or Vizier)via hard cast or Coco (if Bird/Noble played on turn 1 and 2) or Chord for 2 (Tapping 3 mana + convoke with 2 creatures).
Then, I go infinite mana and either :
- Cast Duskwatcher from hand, activate his ability to find Ballista
- Cast Ballista as X = 20
- Chord for 2 for Duskwatcher and find Ballista
I have played a lot of Abzan Coco and you can't pull that off that easily and quickly. Fun fact is that you can go GW and run Ghost Quarter main. However, I have to say that Abzan Coco have a better beat down plan.
As for your results against Burn, I'm pretty impress!! I'm 1-3... I think I should move Collective Brut in my main deck...
I also see tutors as answers, which is why I never liked the feeling of only having 3 in my deck with no draw engine. While I agree that the tutors go a long way to help against topdeck dependency in a 1-of deck, we first have to actually find these tutors - and 3 ain't a lot. If we use an Evolution early or get one countered/discarded, the chances of finding a second one are actually pretty slim. I understand the 3 Evo + 1-of's for virtual playsets of bullets, and I love the idea on paper, but in practice the lists I've played like midrange decks that sometimes draw an Orzhov Pontiff for the sick blowouts from nowhere. And in that position I'd prefer just having a higher density of generically powerful, interchangeable cards (say 4 Souls, 4 Goyf, 8 removal, 8 discard, etc) to ensure I'm gonna win the topdeck wars.
@BowAndArrow2:
Burn MU is very draw dependant. I went 7-6 against a very spell-heavy list (no Nacatl) the other day in testing with some fairly horrid draws (Canopy and double Canopy starts maybe 3-4 games) and no Brutalities. Agreed with my friend that the MU is likely more in my favor than was shown, maybe something like 65-70%, depending on draws. That being said, if you face it a lot, Brutalities main will go a long way.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
3 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 voice of resurgence
1 eternal witness
1 renegade rallier
1 orzhov pontiff
3 kitchen finks
3 restoration angel
2 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 verdurous gearhulk
spells
2 fatal push
4 path to exile
4 eldritch evolution
2 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
4 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
4 windswept heath
2 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
1 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
3 razorverge thicket
1 kataki, war's wage
1 aven mindcensor
1 Sin collector
1 reclamation sage
1 grafdigger's cage
2 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
1 blessed alliance
1 dromoka's command
2 stony silence
1 engineered explosives
1 collective brutality
r1 merfolk
g1 he had some iffy draws I guess and I just went to pound town. Resto was pretty important as was gearhulk. g2 He kept a risky hand of 1 land and vial. good news for me as I too took a risk and evolutioned my bird to get rec sage. I was so praying he didn't have a curesecatcher in hand as he could have blown me out pretty hard vialing it in. He didn't. he was too far behind at that point to catch up.
1-0
r2 merfolk...
SO much merfolk this time was a splash for red. g1 I did what my deck did and killed some dudes and beat down. g2 blood moon cut me out of casting white cards which turned out to be my whole hand I had a forest and swamp out. boo. g3 I played poorly for sure and could have prevented some spreading seas. I played pretty loosely and I think it may have cost me the game. I was also perhaps too afraid of blood moon. I'm not sure I would have won but it certainly would have been a different game. I boarded out pontiff and man I wish I hadn't that card is either insane or terrible. At one point I could a wiped 4 creatures. Oh well I think was still the right choice to cut him.
1-1
r3 jeskai nahiri
g1 we go a while and he ends up emrakul'ing me and turns out it didn't do anything lol. sure I was set back but I could still play my hand and was still at a healthy 10 life thanks to thragtusk. He then played elspeth, sun's champion and that ACTUALLY won the game. g2 I had some hate cards and there wasn't much he could do, outside of path, my cards are all so resilient. g3 More hatecards but I was able to evolution into a gearhulk and that shifted the game so hard. He was able to deal with it all eventually but I was sitting on an explosives for sun's champ. Instead, he plays batterskull so I play explosives with enough mana to gavony as well. I got in for exactsies right before he could elspeth. nice.
2-1
r4 gr tron
g1 I was lucky enough to find a ghost quarter before he could get tron and he was never able to find tron in time. When he did I had a path for his coil and killed him. g2 stony silence plus ghost quarters shut him out pretty hard. Was glorious from my point, which is obviously all that matters haha. Tron always leads me to some very hard decisions. For instance, at one point i could witness for either GQ or stony. GQ guarantees he can't tron but silence stops the o-stone he has in hand but leads me open to him playing like a wurmcoil and then karn. I chose stony and indeed he did had coil but I was barely enough ahead That I could just play through the lifegain. Was very close game though.
3-1
Gearhulk was awesome. I won every game it hit the table. Now, he never won me the game on the spot but He helped me though tough spots thragtusk may not have. I really enjoyed having a more diversified top end. At 5 mana he's very easily castable as I did 2 out of the 3 times I played him. Resetting finks, turning a crappy bird into a real threat or acting as a pseudo gavony. What I faced this week was totally different than 2 weeks ago. I think I want to find home for a wrath SB for sure. I do have trouble getting through go wide decks. I'm now 6-1 with this deck. I'm really loving it. I also think my one loss this week could have been prevented had I played better so I still have a very long way to go. This deck is complex!
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
for bullets I need to just find the best combination of them. Most of the time, I really don't need more than 1-2 for any given matchup. I boarded in mindcensor and rec sage a lot so I think they will have a permanent slot. Kataki so far is probably too narrow and sin collector is only just fine. I think I would exchange kataki for anafenza, the foremost or even Kambal, Consul of Allocation, that seems sweet. I also like the idea of manglehorn and selfless spirit. I wasn't impressed with Gaddock Teeg. Not sure what other bullets would be worth.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
The only real updates I will be having is, slowly pimping the deck (I want to sell/trade my expedition scalding tarn for some of the expedition shocklands) and finding room for a linvala, keeper of silence and an anafenza, the foremost somewhere in the 75. Linvala almost certainly in SB though. Also been toying around with cutting a finks and an evolution for 2 abrupt decay but haven't committed to that yet.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
I will get back to Abzan Evo really soon since I like this deck so much, but I fear I'm gonna miss Collected Company.
Creatures:26
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Sin Collector
1 Spike Feeder
1 Restoration Angel
2 Siege Rhino
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells:12
4 Path to Exile
2 Chord of Calling
3 Eldritch Evolution
3 Lingering Souls
Lands:22
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stony Silence
2 Lost Legacy
2 Rest in Peace
2 Collective Brutality
Most tough MU so far seem to be Tron. Burn seem better since I added 2 Brutality in sideboard, but still a tough MU. Didn't had the chance to play against Affinity even if it's one of the most deck played right now. What are your win/loss ratio against it ? I'm not sure my deck is ready for Affinity. Dredge and Storm might be ok now since I changed my 2 Surgical for 2 RIP. I have not played against those deck since those change. So when I'm looking at the meta right now on MTGGoldFish, seem like I have a bad MU against tier 1 deck. However, the is sooo good against fair and midrange deck.
Share your results please !