In my current meta i shoved eldritch evolution out of the mb due to the abundance of control and rock strategies. I do however, believe this list has too many dorks, what do you guys think i could replace it with; second resto? Maybe even Lingering Souls?
i think you also need verdant catacombs instead of foothills. Hierarchs instead of wall of roots is also a must. Exalted triggers can be the difference in winning or not. It fixes our mana better.
@pathrogas I will go down to a 4/2 bird/wall split. Probably going use the remaining slots to swap back and forth on Sigarda, Lingering Souls, Sin collector and C Brutality. Will be sitting on Sigarda for now. Also upping Voice count to 4.
@devtin On the topic of verdant catacombs and noble hierarch; well i am not able to warrant dropping that much cash on verdant catacombs. As for the noble hierarch; whilst i agree that it is better for mana fixing and exalted triggers, wall of roots is a really nice fit since it has such great synergy with chord of calling, and seeing as i am running 4 of those, i would not replace wall of roots with noble hierarch. I would probably consider doing so if i moved towards an eldritch evo build.
No worries. Just remember there is a very real cost to fetching a shock off a foothills.also being able to fetch a basic swamp for a thoughtseize is huge. If you are able to slowly trade into them i would
What specific match-ups is it reasonable to take out eldritch evolution and chord of calling? I'm having trouble deciding if its correct to take them out in hyper-aggro, mid-range, and control match-ups. Either they feel too slow or I can't build a substantial board state to use them effectively.
Chord is usually good in grindy, interactive MU's, where you want it to create value in the late game, and bad in games where you need answers super fast.
Evolution is usually good in fast MU's with little interaction (no counters specifically) that you can win by getting certain bullets out, and bad in long, grindy, attrition-based games.
Obviously it depends on the exact MU how good or bad they are.
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Yes i usually take out evolution against counter heavy blue decks. It also gets worse against some decks running warping wail and that bring in grafdiggers cage. I dont usually take it out though. Even if they have graveyard hate being able to fetch a certain bullet is very powerful.
Played an fnm tonight. Went 3-1 for second place. My list plays 4 rhino's, 3 evolutions and 2 chords with random silver bullets. Highlight of the night was chording for the cataclysmic gearhulk against lantern control followed by abrubt decay on bridge and surgical. Guy got super tilted.
Yet another 3-2 tournament. Consistency is good, right? Right?
2-1 vs UR Thing In The Ice - G1 he finds a blue gearhulk to flashback Harvest Pyre to deal with my 5/6 Archangel, game 2 and 3 he dies to Choke. 1-2 vs Affinity - We both mulligan, I resolve Souls and start to build up a board until I run him over. Game 2 and 3 I get stuck on 2 or 3 lands with a bunch of 4-5 drops in hand and die to double-pumped Inkmoths and topdeck'd Cranial Plating. G3 with Fulminator in hand and only 1 black source to be found over 6+ turns. Had him under control with Linvala since turn 3 or so. Variance! 2-1 vs Affinity - More mulligans, he finds two Blasts to kill my Linvala + Archangel and win game 1, I grind him out game 2 and Stony him out game 3. 1-2 BW Eldrazi Taxes - Sigarda makes short work of my opponent game 1. Game 2 I keep a somewhat greedy hand and get punished by a missed landdrop and all the D&T tempo there is from the other side. Game 3 we both mull to 5, I keep a mediocre hand, get TKS'd two turns in a row and eventually die. Even found Path to kill one TKS, drawing me into another Path, taking out the other TKS, but wasn't enough in the end. 2-1 vs Grixis Delver - I lose g1 to all the removal in the world, then win game 2 and 3 with Choke.
Souls felt alright sometimes, synergy with Voice token and Chord is quite nice. Didn't draw 'em much tho, and it makes Cage better against us. Had LOADS of mulligans today, most likely just variance, but annoying enough to make me think about more options to up consistency. Gonna play around with different builds some more.
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hey Pathrogas. I ran a couple of leagues on the weekedn went 4-1 with the same list i won a box with. Then the second time i swapped out a birds and thragtusk for the angelfeeder combo. I went 2-3. That was mainly some poor Thoughtseize choices but there was two times i had either side of the combo in hand and i wish it was the former cards. I am up 2-0 in my latest league with the old list as well. I will try one more league with the angelfeeder combo. In the 3-1 league i beat jund, ad nauseum, cheerios, eldrazitron and lost to Jund. In the 2-3 i beat eldraziytron, jund and lost to dredge, taking turns and monoblack list. In the current league ihave beaten dredge, valukut. The list feels very solid. I am interested in the thought of some combo in there but so far it hasnt felt necessary. Souls is amazing. Its not worth cutting. it pairs so well with voice tokens and allows us to chip damage in and chump block for days. I would really like for the guy that won SCG regionals to get on ehre and give us his thoughts. He went 6-3 at SCG Indy. I really like the colours at the moment. It seems abzan is where you want to be.
Woot, woot, nice to see more results!
The core of the deck is super strong and flexible, so now that people are actually aware of it existing I'm not surprised to see the deck showing up more. When considering lists we gotta remember that the regionals list is likely the only one being played, as it was the first one to put up a strong result. Still, the build allows us to just do our thing and slam stuff until the opponent either dies or forces us to do something else.
I'm glad to see you experimenting around with Angelfeeder, but if you're on only 3 Evos for tutors it's not worth it imo. I'd run at least 5 tutors to test it, otherwise you'll just never be able set it up and it'll always feel bad. Also cutting a Bird seems wrong
Other than that it's good seeing you rocking those leagues I feel most of your described MU's are pretty solid for us (Turns can be a pain without Teeg tho), what's your take? Generally, I think the biggest issue with this strategy is the inconsistency it shows sometimes (curse of midrange). Then again, if we had the consistency of Pod lists back then, we'd probably be too good
Alright, some random thoughts on cards and stuff.
Souls seems good, makes me want to play Chords tho. Chord seems dece, depends pretty heavily on the MU, but makes the deck much more flexible and unpredictable. Angelfeeder still seems good enough (with Chords + Evos); having outs to anything is too important to this strategy in my book to not run it if I can support it. Voice->Evo->Rallier->Souls puts silly amounts of pressure on the table. Voice->Rallier is also usually better than Voice->Rhino most of the times, so 2 Rhinos seem more than enough to me so far, especially with the Resto. Flyers are great, considering Selfless Spirit and maybe even Flickerwisp. Not a fan of Wall of Omens still, tried Abzan Charm instead, felt better but raw card draw still feels very meh in this deck too often, gotta run more relevant cards instead I think. Duskwatch Recruiter might be worth a shot. Still don't like Thoughtseize after trying it again; most combo decks are so redundant these days, Legacy just always feels better, especially with the 6 dorks. Still like Birds more than Hierarch, flying is crazy powerful, even though Exalted is sweet. Spellskite is probably only worth it with Chords, otherwise in the SB.
Update on the primer is on halt atm, gonna test more with the latest lists. Also gon take forever, probably have to rewrite half the damn thing
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Ok cool thanks that helps. So you cut thragtusk, anafenza, and the wall of omens to make room for chords and the combo.
I think in an open meta not having mainboard dredge hate seems risky. Dredge is absolutely still a good deck and at the very least anafenza beats hard. Still i will try your list the next league and see how i go. Wall of omens whulst being good fodder for evolution also allows us to brickwall aggro. Having 5 tutor effects has a real cost. I imagine a lot of games you have two in hand which always feels yuck. I thin this deck wants to tap out more than hold up mana for chord. Thus evolution fits that game plan. Im still not convinced by your arguments for birds over heriarch. Being only three colors the mana is fine and the black is more of a splash. The extra damage allows voices for example to punch through. Im also unclear why no EE's they are just so good in mdoern that not having two deems odd. Is it a cost issue?
In regards to people are trying the regionals list and seeing how it goes. You are absolutely correct that is happening but when they still do well with the list does that also not speak volumes about the list. If they were trying to put the combo in wouldn't that be placing? Im also trying to say if we want to get out of deck creation into developing competitive don;t these results matter as we seek to optimise instead of branching out? Not trying to get personal i just want to see the deck succeed more.
So first off, I appreciate that you're disagreeing and arguing your points, that way I'll have to double-check how good my reasons really are, making it more likely to find something actually good We both want to find the best core for this deck and see it become more popular.
I didn't mean to downplay the results we've been seeing lately by any means, the list is obviously doing something right. My point was more about keeping an open mind and trying to figure out what it is that makes the list work and why, so we can learn, adapt and potentially improve.
Regarding my list - keep in mind that my meta is very different from the MTGO meta. If I'd test on MTGO I'd probably keep the Anafenza in as well. I'd recommend building your own Angelfeeder list instead of running mine 1:1, as you have a better idea of what'll be important.
To the cards.
Wall of Omens - It's a decent trade with Evolution, I agree. I disagree on the anti-aggro part. I might be not seeing something relevant here, so please correct me if I am, but to me it seems pretty poor (as a blocker) against Eldrazi, Death's Shadow, Affinity, and only "alright" against BGx, Infect and Dredge. I can imagine it being good against Burn sometimes, but even then it depends on the kind of draw they're having. The extra card is definately nice against attrition based strategies, but in most Tier MU's I'd probably rather have a Lone Missionary and a Selfless Spirit instead.
Bird of Paradise - I like running triple Lost Legacy in the sideboard, together with Fulminators, all requiring BB, which I found can be tricky to get sometimes. This CAN absolutely be fixed by changing the mana base, but it's also only secondary for my reasoning. My main point is that having loads of flying blockers as well as potential attackers (Gavony, Exalted) is more than a little important. It helps win board stalls and keeps us alive against Affinity and Infect. One of the latest lists ran a 3/3 split, which seems interesting as well, giving us the best of both worlds.
5 Tutors - I agree that running tutors has a cost, and that you can end up drawing multiple tutors when they don't do much. At the same time, there's a cost to only running few tutors. We are a toolbox deck after all, so we want to be able to find certain creatures at certain times. The decision point here is if we want to lose to not having a tutor in hand or to having too many tutors in hand. Running only 3 tutors also has an effect on our main- and sideboard options and can limit card interactions to some degree. Definately not saying I know the correct amount and split, but there are merits to both sides of the equation.
Going to run a different list the next days to see how MU's differ in comparison to my usual lists. (3/3 split Birds/Hierarch, no Chords, 1 Spirit/1 Missionary, Anafenza, 2 Souls, Thragtusk) What I've seen in all lists that put up results is a load of Siege Rhinos. Maybe just slamming Rhino, Rhino, Rhino is the key to Modern after all
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Great thanks for understanding. After i read my reply i thought it might read as me attacking you which was definitely not the intention.
So in regards to keeping an open mind I am absolutely all for that. That's why i am keen to explore whether the combo has a place and also whether chords can be put in. I love chord a lot so would like to play it if its viable. I guess what I am also trying to say is that maybe these people could have just picked up the lost or maybe they are also doing testing too. If so then maybe they have decided not to use the combo or chords. We may also get to that point. At least with us we have full knowledge i.e we can ask each other.
Wall of omens- this card buys time as well. Yes if they get to reality smashers , 4/5 goyfs, 5/5 death shadows and the like, we are in trouble. however, this card also laughs at goblin guides, matter reshapers, nacatl, infect creatures, prized amalgrams etc. However, it has bit the dust for us, we aren't down a card and maybe a creature has been able to attack because we have that blocker there.
Birds/lost legacy - Lost legacy i think is a fine card. I personally prefer Thoughtseize because whilst 2 life is not insignificant it can brutally punish mulligans and comes as soon as possible to stop silly modern crap. However both are great cards so I can see the merits in both. With that said your ratio makes sense. Obviously you are also giving up exalted points but maybe you are dealing less damage to yourself in fetching. FWIW, i usually board out my heriarchs for fulminators in some matchups.
5 tutors - Agree on all points, will try for maybe 1 chord and/pr 2 to boost instant speed interaction. Only thing to do is play more games.
Look forward to your results - I agree rhino is gas, I would add that souls is well positioned at the moment and collective brutatlity. People have also shaved a rhino for a resto angel so that seems to be an agreed upgrade.
3-2 today (Xmage, list on tappedout). Matchups were Esper Geist (2-0), UWR Tempo (2-0), Mono W Enchantments (2-0), Jund (1-2, played quite poorly) and Abzan Midrange (1-2). Midrange MU's feel somewhat worse now. The removal from the board seems good in theory, but so far it felt a bit wonky without a real card-draw engine (think Bob, Flayer, etc.).. kinda like a worse Abzan Midrange deck. Maybe boarded wrong too tho. Gonna run with it more to see how it goes against the likes of Infect, Affinity and such. Kinda want Liliana back in here...
What's peoples opinion on sideboarding versus midrange? Do you keep Evolution? Do you keep Dorks? Do you bring Fulminators? Extra removal?
Usually for BGx i do the following. In EE x2, abrupt decay x2, Thoughtseize x4. Out brutality x2, linvala, sin collector, pontiff, birds x2, heriarch x2.
We are well equipped to handle the match up with thragtusk, sigarda, evo loops with voice and souls which is the mirror breaker.
Yeah, probably supposed to keep the Evos if I don't have other tutors. So used to still having Chord in there Gonna see how a different boarding appoach will work.
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So after getting quite violently demolished by Abzan Midrange most of the day (which was a very good MU before) I feel pretty bad about this lists midrange MU. I felt like a kinda janky version of the old Abzan lists (4 Souls, 4 Rhino) instead of a toolbox/value deck most of the time. There are strong synergies but at the moment I'm not sold that this list really wants to be toolboxing at all. Will do more testing.
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Could you try changing your side to run a similar board to mine. Then try my siding changes. At the very least i would try running more EE which is great against them
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4 Birds of Paradise
4 Chord of Calling
3 Eternal Witness
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Orzhov Pontiff
4 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Restoration Angel
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Siege Rhino
1 Spellskite
1 Spike Feeder
1 Thragtusk
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Roots
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
In my current meta i shoved eldritch evolution out of the mb due to the abundance of control and rock strategies. I do however, believe this list has too many dorks, what do you guys think i could replace it with; second resto? Maybe even Lingering Souls?
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
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@devtin On the topic of verdant catacombs and noble hierarch; well i am not able to warrant dropping that much cash on verdant catacombs. As for the noble hierarch; whilst i agree that it is better for mana fixing and exalted triggers, wall of roots is a really nice fit since it has such great synergy with chord of calling, and seeing as i am running 4 of those, i would not replace wall of roots with noble hierarch. I would probably consider doing so if i moved towards an eldritch evo build.
Thank you both for your suggestions!
Evolution is usually good in fast MU's with little interaction (no counters specifically) that you can win by getting certain bullets out, and bad in long, grindy, attrition-based games.
Obviously it depends on the exact MU how good or bad they are.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
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2-1 vs UR Thing In The Ice - G1 he finds a blue gearhulk to flashback Harvest Pyre to deal with my 5/6 Archangel, game 2 and 3 he dies to Choke.
1-2 vs Affinity - We both mulligan, I resolve Souls and start to build up a board until I run him over. Game 2 and 3 I get stuck on 2 or 3 lands with a bunch of 4-5 drops in hand and die to double-pumped Inkmoths and topdeck'd Cranial Plating. G3 with Fulminator in hand and only 1 black source to be found over 6+ turns. Had him under control with Linvala since turn 3 or so. Variance!
2-1 vs Affinity - More mulligans, he finds two Blasts to kill my Linvala + Archangel and win game 1, I grind him out game 2 and Stony him out game 3.
1-2 BW Eldrazi Taxes - Sigarda makes short work of my opponent game 1. Game 2 I keep a somewhat greedy hand and get punished by a missed landdrop and all the D&T tempo there is from the other side. Game 3 we both mull to 5, I keep a mediocre hand, get TKS'd two turns in a row and eventually die. Even found Path to kill one TKS, drawing me into another Path, taking out the other TKS, but wasn't enough in the end.
2-1 vs Grixis Delver - I lose g1 to all the removal in the world, then win game 2 and 3 with Choke.
Souls felt alright sometimes, synergy with Voice token and Chord is quite nice. Didn't draw 'em much tho, and it makes Cage better against us. Had LOADS of mulligans today, most likely just variance, but annoying enough to make me think about more options to up consistency. Gonna play around with different builds some more.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
It seems we got the same list went 16th in the modern classic!
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112023
The fact that we are getting this same lists with minor tweaks doing well is great news.
The core of the deck is super strong and flexible, so now that people are actually aware of it existing I'm not surprised to see the deck showing up more. When considering lists we gotta remember that the regionals list is likely the only one being played, as it was the first one to put up a strong result. Still, the build allows us to just do our thing and slam stuff until the opponent either dies or forces us to do something else.
I'm glad to see you experimenting around with Angelfeeder, but if you're on only 3 Evos for tutors it's not worth it imo. I'd run at least 5 tutors to test it, otherwise you'll just never be able set it up and it'll always feel bad. Also cutting a Bird seems wrong
Other than that it's good seeing you rocking those leagues I feel most of your described MU's are pretty solid for us (Turns can be a pain without Teeg tho), what's your take? Generally, I think the biggest issue with this strategy is the inconsistency it shows sometimes (curse of midrange). Then again, if we had the consistency of Pod lists back then, we'd probably be too good
Alright, some random thoughts on cards and stuff.
Souls seems good, makes me want to play Chords tho. Chord seems dece, depends pretty heavily on the MU, but makes the deck much more flexible and unpredictable. Angelfeeder still seems good enough (with Chords + Evos); having outs to anything is too important to this strategy in my book to not run it if I can support it. Voice->Evo->Rallier->Souls puts silly amounts of pressure on the table. Voice->Rallier is also usually better than Voice->Rhino most of the times, so 2 Rhinos seem more than enough to me so far, especially with the Resto. Flyers are great, considering Selfless Spirit and maybe even Flickerwisp. Not a fan of Wall of Omens still, tried Abzan Charm instead, felt better but raw card draw still feels very meh in this deck too often, gotta run more relevant cards instead I think. Duskwatch Recruiter might be worth a shot. Still don't like Thoughtseize after trying it again; most combo decks are so redundant these days, Legacy just always feels better, especially with the 6 dorks. Still like Birds more than Hierarch, flying is crazy powerful, even though Exalted is sweet. Spellskite is probably only worth it with Chords, otherwise in the SB.
Update on the primer is on halt atm, gonna test more with the latest lists. Also gon take forever, probably have to rewrite half the damn thing
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Spellskite
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Eternal Witness
1 Spike Feeder
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Restoration Angel
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Siege Rhino
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Eldritch Evolution
2 Chord of Calling
4 Path to Exile
2 Collective Brutality
2 Lingering Souls
Lands (23)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Stony Silence
2 Choke
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
I think in an open meta not having mainboard dredge hate seems risky. Dredge is absolutely still a good deck and at the very least anafenza beats hard. Still i will try your list the next league and see how i go. Wall of omens whulst being good fodder for evolution also allows us to brickwall aggro. Having 5 tutor effects has a real cost. I imagine a lot of games you have two in hand which always feels yuck. I thin this deck wants to tap out more than hold up mana for chord. Thus evolution fits that game plan. Im still not convinced by your arguments for birds over heriarch. Being only three colors the mana is fine and the black is more of a splash. The extra damage allows voices for example to punch through. Im also unclear why no EE's they are just so good in mdoern that not having two deems odd. Is it a cost issue?
In regards to people are trying the regionals list and seeing how it goes. You are absolutely correct that is happening but when they still do well with the list does that also not speak volumes about the list. If they were trying to put the combo in wouldn't that be placing? Im also trying to say if we want to get out of deck creation into developing competitive don;t these results matter as we seek to optimise instead of branching out? Not trying to get personal i just want to see the deck succeed more.
I didn't mean to downplay the results we've been seeing lately by any means, the list is obviously doing something right. My point was more about keeping an open mind and trying to figure out what it is that makes the list work and why, so we can learn, adapt and potentially improve.
Regarding my list - keep in mind that my meta is very different from the MTGO meta. If I'd test on MTGO I'd probably keep the Anafenza in as well. I'd recommend building your own Angelfeeder list instead of running mine 1:1, as you have a better idea of what'll be important.
To the cards.
Going to run a different list the next days to see how MU's differ in comparison to my usual lists. (3/3 split Birds/Hierarch, no Chords, 1 Spirit/1 Missionary, Anafenza, 2 Souls, Thragtusk) What I've seen in all lists that put up results is a load of Siege Rhinos. Maybe just slamming Rhino, Rhino, Rhino is the key to Modern after all
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
So in regards to keeping an open mind I am absolutely all for that. That's why i am keen to explore whether the combo has a place and also whether chords can be put in. I love chord a lot so would like to play it if its viable. I guess what I am also trying to say is that maybe these people could have just picked up the lost or maybe they are also doing testing too. If so then maybe they have decided not to use the combo or chords. We may also get to that point. At least with us we have full knowledge i.e we can ask each other.
Wall of omens- this card buys time as well. Yes if they get to reality smashers , 4/5 goyfs, 5/5 death shadows and the like, we are in trouble. however, this card also laughs at goblin guides, matter reshapers, nacatl, infect creatures, prized amalgrams etc. However, it has bit the dust for us, we aren't down a card and maybe a creature has been able to attack because we have that blocker there.
Birds/lost legacy - Lost legacy i think is a fine card. I personally prefer Thoughtseize because whilst 2 life is not insignificant it can brutally punish mulligans and comes as soon as possible to stop silly modern crap. However both are great cards so I can see the merits in both. With that said your ratio makes sense. Obviously you are also giving up exalted points but maybe you are dealing less damage to yourself in fetching. FWIW, i usually board out my heriarchs for fulminators in some matchups.
5 tutors - Agree on all points, will try for maybe 1 chord and/pr 2 to boost instant speed interaction. Only thing to do is play more games.
Look forward to your results - I agree rhino is gas, I would add that souls is well positioned at the moment and collective brutatlity. People have also shaved a rhino for a resto angel so that seems to be an agreed upgrade.
What's peoples opinion on sideboarding versus midrange? Do you keep Evolution? Do you keep Dorks? Do you bring Fulminators? Extra removal?
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
We are well equipped to handle the match up with thragtusk, sigarda, evo loops with voice and souls which is the mirror breaker.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG