I'm not sure how necessary Pentad Prism is here but I picked it up from the "Ad Nauseam" deck to speed up the combo
(or to combo off with Remand backup).
Maybe it can be replaced with more interaction (counters/removal) or some more cantrips/tutors (Anticipate/Idyllic Tutor).
I shy away from Altar of the Brood as sole-wincon because it effectively cannot beat a deck running reshuffle-clause creatures like the original eldrazi titans. Maybe a few Pious Evangel in your sideboard to be able to put up a fight against such decks rather than just fold.
Would (a SB) Surgical Extraction solve this problem if cast it in response to the reshuffle trigger to continue milling ?
Btw, the new Bontu's Monument seems like a better alternate win condition than Pious Evangel as it doesnt require flipping and doesnt die to creature removal (and doesn't target).
Though finding it consistently would be a problem (without a card like Trophy Mage).
Yes, Bontu's Monument would be perfect! My card-text search researching my post only searched existing cards, not future-spoiled cards.
With a Bontu's Monument out, Basal Sliver also becomes an eternally recurring creature. Not that it's any better than our existing options, but an amusing new possibility. Enduring Renewal + Bontu's Monument + Basal Sliver = win.
Fabricate doesn't find Enduring Renewal, which has always been the lynchpin of these decks. There are plenty of redundant loopables and redundant wincons, but there's no redundant Enduring Renewal, and adding a tutor that doesn't get that is just making the likelier parts more likely, while not helping get the one card that most needs help.
Idyllic Tutor gets ER but in many builds that's the only card it can fetch.
I wonder if adding some Temple of Enlightenment to "scry" would be a good idea, although I'm not sure if it would work very well in a 20x lands list where I need to hit my land drops on time (not counting Pentad Prism).
It is another idea which can be borrowed from "Ad Nauseam" which is the established combo deck in these colors.
Would this manabase be better (to assemble and cast the combo more consistently):
I still think some way of actually tutoring/fetching the Enduring Renewal is vital. All this scrying and cantripping doesn't help you if, just by luck, the 4 ER's simply never get drawn.
Ad Nauseam.dec runs Spoils of the Vault to provide a backup plan to help hit an Ad Nauseam if it doesn't come up naturally. There's no backup plan here other than more-scry; if all your Enduring Renewals are all among the 35-40 cards you never see, you're sunk.
Idyllic Tutor seems like the only option as there is no suitable "transmute" card (that doesn't require black mana).
It can potentially slot in the deck instead of Pentad Prism.
I don't think I'd run either. Turn 3 will be a huge deal for this deck, because that's when you would like to cast your tutor (Trinket Mage or Idyllic Tutor) to fetch whatever combo piece you're missing so you can drop your Enduring Renewal on T4 and win. I think I'd like all of my card-draw and scry shenanigans to be taking place the first two turns of the game.
I actually like Pentad Prism in this build. I love keeping alive the possibility of a T3 win.
I just don't think UW is a particularly good shell for this concept. The original version in this thread ran BW, and with B it gained access to better tutors as well as some combo pieces and the multipurpose Orzhov Charm. RW also offers some redundant or useful combo options (Impact Tremors is a wincon that's also Idyllic Tutorable; Wild Cantor is the triple threat of acceleration, fixing, and a net-zero-cost ER-loopable creature.)
I played a deck much like this in rainbow lands (Gemstone Mines, Mana Confluences, City of Brass) and I didn't run a single blue card even though I had as much ability to get blue mana as any other color but white. It just didn't offer either the tutoring, piece redundancy, or acceleration that other splash colors did.
I don't think that Red helps as the combo nearly as much as Blue, the cantrips do a lot of work and having Trinket Mage as a redundant piece of both Altar of the Brood and Hangarback Walker is the main selling point here.
#Impact Tremors (Reckless Fireweaver) is good but I have no problem finding Altar having virtually 8x copies with Trinket Mage in the deck.
#I don't like Wild Cantor (it's like a weaker Pentad Prism that dies to creature removal) as a card and don't find it necessary for this strategy.
That is why I think that U/W is the better shell for this combo.
Another option I thought about is replacing Thirst for Knowledge/Compulsive Research with Court Hussar which is basically an Anticipate with a body that can help survive longer while digging 3 cards deep for the combo, or I could just go with Anticipate for mana efficiency and lower curve.
I do like Anticipate a lot better than the 3-cost options. Again, to me turn 3 is tutor go-time and I think it would be best to have nothing else occupying the 3-slot other than your two tutors.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the viability of blue as support color. If it works for you, more power to you.
Formally, I am pro Pentad Prism, anti Temple of Enlightenment. To me, combodeck in modern needs to be FAST . You don't want an ETBtapped land stunting your combo by a turn, and Prism's opportunity to make it fire one turn sooner is huge. I don't even especially like the Seachrome Coasts here, despite their drawback only mattering if they're the fourth land you draw, on the fourth turn. I would think Gemstone Mine is a card that can get you either color of mana and whose drawback is less likely to harm you, maybe even Aether Hub / Tendo Ice Bridge.
One blue card I'd have a good look at in the sideboard (even if the deck wasn't running any sources of blue mana!) is Pact of Negation. If you come up against a blue deck that figures out "If I counter the Enduring Renewal, I win", it would be nice to be able to side in an answer to push the ER through a counter when you play ER as soon as possible (on a turn where you'd combo off right after it lands, like T3 via Pentad Prism on a god-draw) with no mana to spare.
I'm not sure about Temple of Enlightenment as well but it is probably worth some testing.
I really like Anticipate so far after playing some games with it in my list.
My last build was a while ago... I set it aside because I recognized I needed to work on tutoring, and haven't acquired my planned Idyllic Tutors yet (I held out for them getting reprinted in MM17, whups). My best combo-completer is Commune with the Gods, which is why all my combopieces are creature or enchantment (it couldn't hit Altar of the Brood)... and if it puts any useful creature into my grave I can call it back with Orzhov Charm.
If I rebuilt this today (and wished to buy the necessary parts to do so) I would likely turn the Endless Ones into Walking Ballistas and the Zulaport Cutthroats into Disciple of the Vault. Even if Cantor and Disciple is a nombo, having 8 actual artifact loopers allows play of Disciple, which is cheaper and Orzhov Charmable. And the Cantor still works as acceleration/fixing and it still combos off with Impact Tremors.
The ideal line of play goes:
1. Land, Birds or Cantor
2. Land, Cutthroat or Tremors (and ideally another Birds or Cantor if I played a Birds on T1)
3. Land, ER, then either an Endless or Hangarback for the win or if I played 2 dorks in the first turns I can spare to sac a Cantor even after casting ER.
Of course, the ideal didn't always happen, and I had to delay a turn and hope Commune could dig me out the missing piece or a replacement for a removed piece. The single Spoils was the last ditch "Well, if I don't get Enduring Renewal right now I'll lose anyway, so might as well risk the lifeloss" that I hated having to resort to, but sometimes worked.
I think that I can improve upon this U/W version by ditching the clunkier aspects of the combo: Blasting Station + Grinding Station for Altar of the Brood which is cheaper and doesn't care about Stony Silence and Leyline of Sanctity.
Also using a 0-mana artifact creature that dies upon EtB like Hangarback Walker (or the more expensive Walking Ballista) would work with Altar and most importanly both pieces are tutorable by Trinket Mage (which can also block to buy more time to assemble the combo).
Here is my version of the deck:
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Trinket Mage
Instant (12)
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
4x Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (8)
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
Enchantment (5)
1x Detention Sphere
4x Enduring Renewal
4x Altar of the Brood
3x Pentad Prism
Land (20)
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Windswept Heath
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Seachrome Coast
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Academy Ruins
2x Disenchant
2x Dispel
2x Echoing Truth
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Negate
2x Spellskite
1x Tormod's Crypt
(or to combo off with Remand backup).
Maybe it can be replaced with more interaction (counters/removal) or some more cantrips/tutors (Anticipate/Idyllic Tutor).
What do you think ?
Btw, the new Bontu's Monument seems like a better alternate win condition than Pious Evangel as it doesnt require flipping and doesnt die to creature removal (and doesn't target).
Though finding it consistently would be a problem (without a card like Trophy Mage).
With a Bontu's Monument out, Basal Sliver also becomes an eternally recurring creature. Not that it's any better than our existing options, but an amusing new possibility. Enduring Renewal + Bontu's Monument + Basal Sliver = win.
Idyllic Tutor gets ER but in many builds that's the only card it can fetch.
It is another idea which can be borrowed from "Ad Nauseam" which is the established combo deck in these colors.
Would this manabase be better (to assemble and cast the combo more consistently):
1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
2x Plains
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Temple of Enlightenment
The changes are:
+4x Temple of Enlightenment, +1x Seachrome Coast
-1x Island, -2x Polluted Delta, -2x Windswept Heath.
What do you think ?
Ad Nauseam.dec runs Spoils of the Vault to provide a backup plan to help hit an Ad Nauseam if it doesn't come up naturally. There's no backup plan here other than more-scry; if all your Enduring Renewals are all among the 35-40 cards you never see, you're sunk.
It can potentially slot in the deck instead of Pentad Prism.
If I drop the Pentad Prism maybe Compulsive Research can be better than Thirst for Knowledge ?
(as the instant speed isn't as important)
I actually like Pentad Prism in this build. I love keeping alive the possibility of a T3 win.
I just don't think UW is a particularly good shell for this concept. The original version in this thread ran BW, and with B it gained access to better tutors as well as some combo pieces and the multipurpose Orzhov Charm. RW also offers some redundant or useful combo options (Impact Tremors is a wincon that's also Idyllic Tutorable; Wild Cantor is the triple threat of acceleration, fixing, and a net-zero-cost ER-loopable creature.)
I played a deck much like this in rainbow lands (Gemstone Mines, Mana Confluences, City of Brass) and I didn't run a single blue card even though I had as much ability to get blue mana as any other color but white. It just didn't offer either the tutoring, piece redundancy, or acceleration that other splash colors did.
#Impact Tremors (Reckless Fireweaver) is good but I have no problem finding Altar having virtually 8x copies with Trinket Mage in the deck.
#I don't like Wild Cantor (it's like a weaker Pentad Prism that dies to creature removal) as a card and don't find it necessary for this strategy.
Regarding Black,
It adds Dimir House Guard/Clutch of the Undercity to tutor for Enduring Renewal but they aren't that useful on their own anyway and funtion basically as Idyllic Tutor.
I don't think that Spoils of the Vault fits this deck particulary well and the other black tutor options are rather inefficient/overcosted
(Diabolic Tutor/Dark Petition/Beseech the Queen).
Cards like: Disciple of the Vault, Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist make the combo vulnerable to removal and don't improve the deck imho.
That is why I think that U/W is the better shell for this combo.
Another option I thought about is replacing Thirst for Knowledge/Compulsive Research with Court Hussar which is basically an Anticipate with a body that can help survive longer while digging 3 cards deep for the combo, or I could just go with Anticipate for mana efficiency and lower curve.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the viability of blue as support color. If it works for you, more power to you.
Formally, I am pro Pentad Prism, anti Temple of Enlightenment. To me, combodeck in modern needs to be FAST . You don't want an ETBtapped land stunting your combo by a turn, and Prism's opportunity to make it fire one turn sooner is huge. I don't even especially like the Seachrome Coasts here, despite their drawback only mattering if they're the fourth land you draw, on the fourth turn. I would think Gemstone Mine is a card that can get you either color of mana and whose drawback is less likely to harm you, maybe even Aether Hub / Tendo Ice Bridge.
One blue card I'd have a good look at in the sideboard (even if the deck wasn't running any sources of blue mana!) is Pact of Negation. If you come up against a blue deck that figures out "If I counter the Enduring Renewal, I win", it would be nice to be able to side in an answer to push the ER through a counter when you play ER as soon as possible (on a turn where you'd combo off right after it lands, like T3 via Pentad Prism on a god-draw) with no mana to spare.
I'm not sure about Temple of Enlightenment as well but it is probably worth some testing.
I really like Anticipate so far after playing some games with it in my list.
Here is my current list:
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Trinket Mage
Instant (12)
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
4x Anticipate
Sorcery (8)
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
3x Idyllic Tutor
Enchantment (5)
1x Detention Sphere
4x Enduring Renewal
4x Altar of the Brood
Land (20)
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Windswept Heath
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Seachrome Coast
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Academy Ruins
2x Disenchant
2x Dispel
2x Echoing Truth
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Negate
2x Spellskite
1x Tormod's Crypt
If I rebuilt this today (and wished to buy the necessary parts to do so) I would likely turn the Endless Ones into Walking Ballistas and the Zulaport Cutthroats into Disciple of the Vault. Even if Cantor and Disciple is a nombo, having 8 actual artifact loopers allows play of Disciple, which is cheaper and Orzhov Charmable. And the Cantor still works as acceleration/fixing and it still combos off with Impact Tremors.
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Wild Cantor
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Spoils of the Vault
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Impact Tremors
4 Orzhov Charm
4 Enduring Renewal
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Forest
2 Plains
The ideal line of play goes:
1. Land, Birds or Cantor
2. Land, Cutthroat or Tremors (and ideally another Birds or Cantor if I played a Birds on T1)
3. Land, ER, then either an Endless or Hangarback for the win or if I played 2 dorks in the first turns I can spare to sac a Cantor even after casting ER.
Of course, the ideal didn't always happen, and I had to delay a turn and hope Commune could dig me out the missing piece or a replacement for a removed piece. The single Spoils was the last ditch "Well, if I don't get Enduring Renewal right now I'll lose anyway, so might as well risk the lifeloss" that I hated having to resort to, but sometimes worked.