I realllllly think there's something here - anyone have any ideas? Turn 1 Scour off a fetch hitting a Bitterblossom is auto delirium and enables turn 2 Whispers of Emrakul. That's biiiiig game.
My initial thought was a Delver deck, but then I saw what a list looked like. If I included 4 walkers (LOTV), 4 Artifacts (Mishra's Bauble), and 4 enchantments (Bitterblossom) in order to enable Delirium, plus 14 creatures and 22 lands, that means there's only room for 12 instants/sorceries. Which is not nearly enough to reliably flip Delver. So all of a sudden it seems like Delver and Delirium can't reliably co-exist, which is fine, but somewhat disappointing.
However, once we step away from Delver it opens it up to non-tempo designs. We can go more Midrange like Grixis or Jund, but be the Delirium Midrange deck. You'd need to be cautious here though because any decent graveyard hate would hose a dedicated Delirium strategy, so you'll need to make a list that is effective without a graveyard.
Another thought is that quite a few of the creatures we'd want to run are 2-drops. Tarmogoyf, Grim Flayer, Noose Constrictor, Dark Confidant (potentially), Snapcaster, and role players like Lotleth Troll. That brings Aether Vial to mind, which is a nice way to cheat them in but is also a Delirium enabler as an artifact.
Crop circles is a pretty powerful turn 1 delirium enabler as well.
You could play oath of nissa + liliana + ashiok for more card types, but that might be too much.
I personally can't see Noose Constructor being any good here if you are only using it to get delirium online selfmill should be way better at that (Thoughtscour, Satyr Wayfinder, Grisly Salvage, Life from the Loam). What I can see though is Stubborn Denial being really good here. Consensus on ferocious are 7-8 enabler and with 4x Goyfs, 4x Grim Flayers and potentially Autumnal Gloom and even a 1x Tasigur (seems playable if we invest in selfmill, if not, then it antisynergises to hard) that is easily given. Snapcaster Mage should be definetely considered (even more if our lists include new lili).
Looks like this has potential to wreck combo decks, actually have an reasonable MU against Tron and other fair decks but aggro seems problematic as BUG doesn't have any decent 1cmc kill spell.
- Fetch into Scour hitting Blossom to enable turn 2 Whispers feels GREAT. I'm pretty sure Whispers is THE payoff for the deck I think.
- Gnarlwood Dryad isn't great in a more midrange build. The 3/3 body just isn't what you want.
- Thoughtseize and Inquisition next to Whispers felt clunky. I wasn't sure how this would feel (I obviously tried a much more midrange build) so it felt wrong to not include either of the targeted discard spells, but I think you'd be better off running them in the sideboard.
- Getting REALLY quick 6/7 Goyfs feels really really good.
- There's an awkward tension between things like Thought Scour (delirium enabling) and the things that have delirium. I felt myself wanting to include WAY more than 60 cards - this deck is going to be difficult to brew because of the sheer number of different directions you can go with the deck.
- Bitterblossom is SO good in this deck. It's the best Delirium enabler and it makes your ability to go into hyper grind mode go off the charts. There's quite a bit on tension with a delirium deck to include a number of different card types, so having 2 of the hardest types to hit on one card is big big big big.
In quick summary - I think Grim Flayer and Whispers of Emrakul are the big payoffs for delirium. Bitterblossom is good at getting you there. The deck is difficult to build correctly due to the natural tensions in deck building restrictions that come with delirium and enabling it.
Also, in thinking about it, a snapcaster focused build could look really good but it won't look ANYTHING like this.
- Fetch into Scour hitting Blossom to enable turn 2 Whispers feels GREAT. I'm pretty sure Whispers is THE payoff for the deck I think.
- Gnarlwood Dryad isn't great in a more midrange build. The 3/3 body just isn't what you want.
- Thoughtseize and Inquisition next to Whispers felt clunky. I wasn't sure how this would feel (I obviously tried a much more midrange build) so it felt wrong to not include either of the targeted discard spells, but I think you'd be better off running them in the sideboard.
- Getting REALLY quick 6/7 Goyfs feels really really good.
- There's an awkward tension between things like Thought Scour (delirium enabling) and the things that have delirium. I felt myself wanting to include WAY more than 60 cards - this deck is going to be difficult to brew because of the sheer number of different directions you can go with the deck.
- Bitterblossom is SO good in this deck. It's the best Delirium enabler and it makes your ability to go into hyper grind mode go off the charts. There's quite a bit on tension with a delirium deck to include a number of different card types, so having 2 of the hardest types to hit on one card is big big big big.
In quick summary - I think Grim Flayer and Whispers of Emrakul are the big payoffs for delirium. Bitterblossom is good at getting you there. The deck is difficult to build correctly due to the natural tensions in deck building restrictions that come with delirium and enabling it.
Also, in thinking about it, a snapcaster focused build could look really good but it won't look ANYTHING like this.
Without testing, so just in theory, I agree with everything you wrote with a small change regarding targeted discard. I think you want a total of 6 to 7 discard spells in the deck, including Whispers. So if Whispers is a 4-of, that means there's potentially room for 3 TS or Inquisition, but not both in the main.
On the other hand, another decent comparison point is Shardless BUG in Legacy. We don't have Cascade but the Delirium effect makes it feel somewhat like that deck. It runs Hymns and Liliana main but all the targeted discard is in the side, like you mentioned.
- Fetch into Scour hitting Blossom to enable turn 2 Whispers feels GREAT. I'm pretty sure Whispers is THE payoff for the deck I think.
- Gnarlwood Dryad isn't great in a more midrange build. The 3/3 body just isn't what you want.
- Thoughtseize and Inquisition next to Whispers felt clunky. I wasn't sure how this would feel (I obviously tried a much more midrange build) so it felt wrong to not include either of the targeted discard spells, but I think you'd be better off running them in the sideboard.
- Getting REALLY quick 6/7 Goyfs feels really really good.
- There's an awkward tension between things like Thought Scour (delirium enabling) and the things that have delirium. I felt myself wanting to include WAY more than 60 cards - this deck is going to be difficult to brew because of the sheer number of different directions you can go with the deck.
- Bitterblossom is SO good in this deck. It's the best Delirium enabler and it makes your ability to go into hyper grind mode go off the charts. There's quite a bit on tension with a delirium deck to include a number of different card types, so having 2 of the hardest types to hit on one card is big big big big.
In quick summary - I think Grim Flayer and Whispers of Emrakul are the big payoffs for delirium. Bitterblossom is good at getting you there. The deck is difficult to build correctly due to the natural tensions in deck building restrictions that come with delirium and enabling it.
Also, in thinking about it, a snapcaster focused build could look really good but it won't look ANYTHING like this.
I honestly think the Gnarlwood is necessary in order to survive the aggro match-up. I don't see how this deck survives bushwacker zoo without a 1/1 or 3/3 deathtouch trading with their Nacatls, etc.
A more pox-type list could also use Phyrexian Revoker. As with Bitterblossom, any playable card that has 2 card types is great here. My kingdom for a Baleful Strix!
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
A more pox-type list could also use Phyrexian Revoker. As with Bitterblossom, any playable card that has 2 card types is great here. My kingdom for a Baleful Strix!
So many Grixis and BUG players would sacrifice their kingdoms for a modern legal Baleful Strix
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
Yeah, Gnarlwood is a necessary evil since there is no Innocent Blood in this format. There isn't any other 1 mana play that I can think of to protect ourselves. Any ideas?
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
Yeah, Gnarlwood is a necessary evil since there is no Innocent Blood in this format. There isn't any other 1 mana play that I can think of to protect ourselves. Any ideas?
I play Fae and I'm a pretty big fan of disfigure. It hits Nacatl (before their second turn), guide, swiftspear, Bird of Paradise and all of the other dorks, Eidolon, etc.
So this is an interesting deck arch. The lack of bolt and path worry me in the format, but it's possible it could be good. I don't think the deck should bend over backwards to enable delirium, but instead play great cards that essentially force our opponent to enable it or help enable it through the course of the game. Bauble is good because it's a free enabler, gitaxian probe is another free enabler that gives us information. Courser of kruiphix is one of the cards that is good and as long as it's not path'd, enables delirium. Walkers are great, revoker is great. Pretty much, I feel the deck should be a value midrange deck that gets better with delirium.
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
Yeah, Gnarlwood is a necessary evil since there is no Innocent Blood in this format. There isn't any other 1 mana play that I can think of to protect ourselves. Any ideas?
I play Fae and I'm a pretty big fan of disfigure. It hits Nacatl (before their second turn), guide, swiftspear, Bird of Paradise and all of the other dorks, Eidolon, etc.
Yeah I thought about Disfigure, I like the card - but I'd have to test it vs Gnarlwood. Also, since we're dumping cards into our graveyard, I wonder what other cards are out there that can allow us to return some of those cards to our hand at little cost in order to just generate value.
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
If you are going for a pox-y type of a deck you could add 4x Ghost Quarter which is amazing with Loam. haha it makes me wonder if there could be a build with Smallpox.
1st draft of a pox BUG Delirium list, so it's probably not too good but wanted to get it out there. I'm really having trouble both fitting everything I want and thinking that just playing the normal version of a pox list would just be better.
EDIT: It's also possible this should just be BG or Abzan, but I can't give up on Thought Scour and its Delirium enabling yet.
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
Yeah, Gnarlwood is a necessary evil since there is no Innocent Blood in this format. There isn't any other 1 mana play that I can think of to protect ourselves. Any ideas?
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
Yeah, Gnarlwood is a necessary evil since there is no Innocent Blood in this format. There isn't any other 1 mana play that I can think of to protect ourselves. Any ideas?
On Gnarlwood - I wasn't suggesting that my build was 'correct', I just don't think that Gnarlwood is what you want in a midrange shell. You are correct though, a Bug Midrange deck needs to be considering zoo.
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
Yeah, Gnarlwood is a necessary evil since there is no Innocent Blood in this format. There isn't any other 1 mana play that I can think of to protect ourselves. Any ideas?
Yeah but Gnarlwood can actually turn into a legitimate beater.
Oh for sure but if it's a question about a 1 drop with Deathtouch that can trade with a Goyf or Angler then the list is rather short. Gnarlwood is actually probably as good as it gets.
So this is an interesting deck arch. The lack of bolt and path worry me in the format, but it's possible it could be good. I don't think the deck should bend over backwards to enable delirium, but instead play great cards that essentially force our opponent to enable it or help enable it through the course of the game. Bauble is good because it's a free enabler, gitaxian probe is another free enabler that gives us information. Courser of kruiphix is one of the cards that is good and as long as it's not path'd, enables delirium. Walkers are great, revoker is great. Pretty much, I feel the deck should be a value midrange deck that gets better with delirium.
I see what you mean, but running a Payoff card like Whispers of Emrakul seems worth it imo. In testing, whenever I casted it, it was brutal. Another thing I'm debating is if running Bitterblossom is worth it. It's great at enabling Delirium, and is a powerful spell, but I'm not sure yet.
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Is there a deck that can be built around the delirium mechanic in these colors?
Delirium Payoffs:
Whispers of Emrakul
Gnarlwood Dryad
Grim Flayer - I think this and Whispers are the big two
Traverse the Ulvenwald
Tarmogoyf - Let's be real here.
Mindwrack Demon
To The Slaughter
Deathcap Cultivator
Scour the Laboratory
Enablers:
Thought Scour
Bitterblossom
Noose Constrictor
Liliana of the Veil OR Liliana, The Last Hope
I realllllly think there's something here - anyone have any ideas? Turn 1 Scour off a fetch hitting a Bitterblossom is auto delirium and enables turn 2 Whispers of Emrakul. That's biiiiig game.
My initial thought was a Delver deck, but then I saw what a list looked like. If I included 4 walkers (LOTV), 4 Artifacts (Mishra's Bauble), and 4 enchantments (Bitterblossom) in order to enable Delirium, plus 14 creatures and 22 lands, that means there's only room for 12 instants/sorceries. Which is not nearly enough to reliably flip Delver. So all of a sudden it seems like Delver and Delirium can't reliably co-exist, which is fine, but somewhat disappointing.
However, once we step away from Delver it opens it up to non-tempo designs. We can go more Midrange like Grixis or Jund, but be the Delirium Midrange deck. You'd need to be cautious here though because any decent graveyard hate would hose a dedicated Delirium strategy, so you'll need to make a list that is effective without a graveyard.
Another thought is that quite a few of the creatures we'd want to run are 2-drops. Tarmogoyf, Grim Flayer, Noose Constrictor, Dark Confidant (potentially), Snapcaster, and role players like Lotleth Troll. That brings Aether Vial to mind, which is a nice way to cheat them in but is also a Delirium enabler as an artifact.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
You could play oath of nissa + liliana + ashiok for more card types, but that might be too much.
Here is my idea for a B/G version:
4x Gnarlwood Dryad
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Grim Flayer
4x Satyr Wayfinder
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Artifact (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (8)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Grisly Salvage
Enchantment (3)
3x Autumnal Gloom
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Swamp
2x Forest
Autumnal Gloom seems like decent payoff card.
Another option can be Inexorable Blob but I'm not sure how good it is even with delirium.
Satyr Wayfinder and Grisly Salvage should help hit land drops and enable delirium quickly.
Dead Weight can be a good way to get an enchantment in the yard.
Nameless Inversion can be another delirium-enabling removal option.
Hangarback Walker can be an enabler as well.
New Liliana and LotV should be good here too.
Snapcaster Mage should be definetely considered (even more if our lists include new lili).
Looks like this has potential to wreck combo decks, actually have an reasonable MU against Tron and other fair decks but aggro seems problematic as BUG doesn't have any decent 1cmc kill spell.
4 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bitterblossom
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
4 Thought Scour
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Whispers of Emrakul
2 Breeding Pool
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Forest
2 Hissing Quagmire
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
Some quick thoughts -
- Fetch into Scour hitting Blossom to enable turn 2 Whispers feels GREAT. I'm pretty sure Whispers is THE payoff for the deck I think.
- Gnarlwood Dryad isn't great in a more midrange build. The 3/3 body just isn't what you want.
- Thoughtseize and Inquisition next to Whispers felt clunky. I wasn't sure how this would feel (I obviously tried a much more midrange build) so it felt wrong to not include either of the targeted discard spells, but I think you'd be better off running them in the sideboard.
- Getting REALLY quick 6/7 Goyfs feels really really good.
- There's an awkward tension between things like Thought Scour (delirium enabling) and the things that have delirium. I felt myself wanting to include WAY more than 60 cards - this deck is going to be difficult to brew because of the sheer number of different directions you can go with the deck.
- Bitterblossom is SO good in this deck. It's the best Delirium enabler and it makes your ability to go into hyper grind mode go off the charts. There's quite a bit on tension with a delirium deck to include a number of different card types, so having 2 of the hardest types to hit on one card is big big big big.
In quick summary - I think Grim Flayer and Whispers of Emrakul are the big payoffs for delirium. Bitterblossom is good at getting you there. The deck is difficult to build correctly due to the natural tensions in deck building restrictions that come with delirium and enabling it.
Also, in thinking about it, a snapcaster focused build could look really good but it won't look ANYTHING like this.
On the other hand, another decent comparison point is Shardless BUG in Legacy. We don't have Cascade but the Delirium effect makes it feel somewhat like that deck. It runs Hymns and Liliana main but all the targeted discard is in the side, like you mentioned.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I honestly think the Gnarlwood is necessary in order to survive the aggro match-up. I don't see how this deck survives bushwacker zoo without a 1/1 or 3/3 deathtouch trading with their Nacatls, etc.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I think the Darkblast might have the grestest potential in this deck since it's a 1 mana spell. I might brew with 1 or 2 in the deck just to see.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
RC - Darkblast and Loam could both be awesome. Darkblast comes with almost no limitations, but does Loam move the deck into other directions. From testing experience I can say with confidence that Loam or Crucible of Worlds + Hissing Quagmire is completely insane as you can throw a deathtouch at the opponent pretty much infinitely which can attrition down ANY board state.
So many Grixis and BUG players would sacrifice their kingdoms for a modern legal Baleful Strix
Yeah, Gnarlwood is a necessary evil since there is no Innocent Blood in this format. There isn't any other 1 mana play that I can think of to protect ourselves. Any ideas?
I play Fae and I'm a pretty big fan of disfigure. It hits Nacatl (before their second turn), guide, swiftspear, Bird of Paradise and all of the other dorks, Eidolon, etc.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Yeah I thought about Disfigure, I like the card - but I'd have to test it vs Gnarlwood. Also, since we're dumping cards into our graveyard, I wonder what other cards are out there that can allow us to return some of those cards to our hand at little cost in order to just generate value.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
EDIT: It's also possible this should just be BG or Abzan, but I can't give up on Thought Scour and its Delirium enabling yet.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Flayer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Noose Constrictor
Sorceries - 8
3 Whispers of Emrakul
3 Smallpox
2 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thought Scour
Artifacts - 4
4 Aether Vial
Enchantments - 4
4 Bitterblossom
Land - 20
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Typhoid Rats
Yeah but Gnarlwood can actually turn into a legitimate beater.
Oh for sure but if it's a question about a 1 drop with Deathtouch that can trade with a Goyf or Angler then the list is rather short. Gnarlwood is actually probably as good as it gets.
I'm not sure if it is worth it though.
I see what you mean, but running a Payoff card like Whispers of Emrakul seems worth it imo. In testing, whenever I casted it, it was brutal. Another thing I'm debating is if running Bitterblossom is worth it. It's great at enabling Delirium, and is a powerful spell, but I'm not sure yet.