The idea of the deck is to combine the synergy of cheap Undying and Evolve creatures with spells like Pongify/Rapid Hybridization and enhance this with Hardened Scales.
I love any deck with Hardened Scales in it, and I wonder if this is the best way to try to abuse it in Modern; nearly anything you do with this generates more counters. Have you tested it at all yet?
I played some games on cockatrice and while it can have some explosive starts it really struggles against graveyard hate (against undying creatures) and removal heavy decks (when I don't an undying creature or H.Walker).
It can also have some slow hands with a bunch of evolve creatures and spells and no bigger creatures to grow them.
I'm still looking for ideas on how to make the deck more consistent.
I haven't tried this deck yet, I've just been searching for cards that are Simic and interact well with +1/+1 counters. Here's my list:
Cards with graft: Vigean Hydropon: Basically counter storage. With Scales on the field this becomes 'each creature ETB with two +1/+1 counters'. Plaxcaster Frogling: More counter storage with the additional benefit of letting creatures survive any removal.
Relevant cards with evolve: Renegade Krasis: Counters, counters everywhere. Experiment One: Already in the deck. Cloudfin Raptor: Already in the deck. Shambleshark: I like the idea of a fish crab, but besides the flash and two power it doesn't present many advantages over Experiment or Cloudfin. Gyre Sage: Could be very useful ramp. Elusive Krasis: Unblockable is very powerful, and it's unBolt-able. With Scales, it'd evolve quickly. Fathom Mage: Useful card draw.
edit: Slight problem; was testing this on XMage with Experiment One on the field, along with Scales. I sent in Avatar of the Resolute, but the counter only got placed on Experiment after Avatar entered the field, so Avatar didn't get a counter either. That's a bit of an anti-synergy.
Also, Torpor Orb kills this deck stone dead. Someone boarded that in against me, no fun. That same person using an artifacts deck used Dispatch which exiled the Undying geist, no fun either.
Also also... this deck seems to run out of steam a little bit. Once you've evolved your Evolve creatures with Scales on the board once, Pongify or Hybridization only put a 3/3 on the board, so that won't force another evolution, except on Cloudfin Raptor. So the most that's gonna happen here is a bunch of 2/3, 3/3 creatures with not a lot of backup, I feel...
Evolve's problem is that unless you move around the counters, after triggering once or twice (I'd say once with scales out) it's too hard to trigger again since you need really large creatures.
Renegade Krasis is nowhere near as awesome as it could be because its effect requires it to evolve, not just have a counter put on it. Since it enters as a 3/2, you need either something with 4 power or 3 toughness; few creatures will trigger it. I've got a semi-casual Simic counters deck and it's just not worth the slot.
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Unless I start very fast the lack of real removal proves troublesome.
I have Mutant's Prey in the SB but i'm not sure it is good enough and consider replacing it with Dismember.
Simic Charm seems like a good idea for the sideboard.
About the other Evolve/Graft creatures mentioned here, I'm not interested in the 3-4 cmc ones as I need mana to play my spells as well and keep the deck fast.
The only one that might be somehow relevant is Shambleshark, but I think that Hangarback Walker is a better option.
I wonder if Bioshift can help this deck or is it too cute a trick to rely on (it can also help "crack" H.Walker if I need flyers).
And my spell slots are rather limited (4x R.H, 4x V.S and 4x Pong) unless I remove Thrummingbird which I didn't get to draw yet but seems to have potential in this deck.
edit: Slight problem; was testing this on XMage with Experiment One on the field, along with Scales. I sent in Avatar of the Resolute, but the counter only got placed on Experiment after Avatar entered the field, so Avatar didn't get a counter either. That's a bit of an anti-synergy.
If you have an Experiment One no counters, you get two triggered abilities when the Avatar of the Resolute enters the battlefield, one for the E1 and one for the Avatar. Stack them so that the E1's ability resolves first, it gets a counter and then the Avatar's ability resolves and it will get a counter also.
Hm, I will have to see if XMage lets me manually set stack order like that. I'm not rules-savvy but what you say makes sense; Avatar should trigger Experiment's counter, and then Avatar should check for counters and find one, so put one on himself too.
Although 'shift can do some tricks and it's often not dead due to everything and its mother having counters, I think it'd be best to find something else.
Definitely shift to Dismember; can be used without creatures on board and kills a lot of stuff.
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I've thinking on how to improve the deck and here are some ideas I have:
1. Void Grafter can replace Hangarback Walker (which is rather slow and expensive).
It has "flash" to counter removal (granting hexproof) and "Evolves" most of my creatures.
Another "flash" option is Bounding Krasis but it seems not as good at Evolving, and tapping can be good but I think I prefer the hexproof ability.
2. Thrummingbird has a pretty good synergy with the deck but is rather slow, I consider replacing it with a combat trick like Hunger of the Howlpack which can be cast with "Morbid" pretty reliably in this deck.
Or maybe go with Rancor for power boost and evasion.
3. Skyrider Elf can be 2/2 flier for 2cmc in the deck and Endless One can also be a scalable creature in this deck.
Another creature I thought about using is Quirion Dryad which can be triggered by 18 blue spells in the deck.
Another option is just to put Scavenging Ooze in the mainboard...(which I still need to get as it is rather expensive online)
1. Not entirely sold on Grafter but reasoning seems good.
2. I get that Morbid is easy to trigger with the 1-mana kill spells, so it could work.
3. Go for skyrider I guess? Flying is very valuable.
4. Some maindeck Scooze could work, it's rarely a dead card.
Have you faced any different decks since last time? You mentioned Abzan and Grixis control, not sure what other stuff has popped up and how you did against it.
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I started working on this deck a few days ago. I started trying to build around Elder Deep-Fiend in modern and slowly I began cutting a lot of the cards and turned it more into an evolve deck. From there it became a Hardened Scales deck, and I'm very happy with where it is at now. This is what I've been testing online (note: I am writing out the optimal decklist; I'm still missing the fetches, Scavenging Ooze, and Hurkyl's Recall. I just figured it would be better to show what I currently think is a good build of the deck rather than the budget build I am currently using):
Now a quick run through of a bunch of stuff I learned while testing this deck:
First, this deck feels very powerful. One of the things with where modern is right now is that you need a good "nut" draw, meaning a good way to either win the game or have an insurmountable board state by turn 3. This deck has several ways of setting up one of these draws with either Cloudfin Raptor and/or Experiment One, Hardened Scales, Strangleroot Geist, and either Pongify or Rapid Hybridization. This means that a turn 3 for this deck could be swinging for 13 with a 4/5, a 5/5, a 4/3, and a 3/3 on board. If you are on the play, it's hard for a lot of decks to race that without drawing perfectly themselves.
Another thing I noticed is that the cards are very good at playing different roles in different matchups. Pongify/Rapid Hybridization is best at demonstrating that by being efficient removal vs decks that care about their specific creatures or use pump spells (ie Death Shadow or Infect), being a tempo way of keeping a board presence vs removal heavy decks (ie Jund, Jeskai, and Abzan), and allowing you to upgrade your creatures into better threats to help race vs the more unfair combo type decks. The other cool part is that none of the specific creatures matter too much, so you really don't mind your opponent's removal except that it potentially messes with your board presence. I would say Avatar of the Resolute (mainly because it can block fliers and push damage pretty effectively) and Gyre Sage (mainly for the potential mana) are the only two I like to work to keep alive, but most of the threats are so interchangeable that it really doesn't matter.
Alright now on some of the creatures and how they've worked out:
Turns out this card is quite good. This and Experiment One are the heart of the deck in my opinion. Making sure you sequence correctly can make or break a game, but Cloudfin Raptor is usually a part of the better draws for this deck. The only bad part is the fact that it is blue while a large portion of the deck is green.
A lot like Cloudfin Raptor, this card is quite good. It even has the upside of not being blue (how often have you heard that phrase). Either way, I think both are must play 4-of's.
He's not in my version of the deck, but I did test him out. The problem was that he didn't really do anything for you unless you killed him with Pongify. That was great, but it kind of forced your hand, and the Pongify effects are great because you can use them in a bunch of situations, so being forced to use them here to make a pretty underwhelming card good just wasn't worth it.
I wasn't sure if this card would work out, but it has proven to be quite outstanding. Some turns you just want to use her to power out 2-3 additional threats, other times you are just happy to have a solid beater. I have been highly impressed.
Besides Cloudfin Raptor and Experiment One, I think this is the other auto 4-of must include. It has been solid every time I've cast it. At worst it's just a 3/2 Trample, Reach, and the sky is it's limit on how big it can get. It also will almost always evolve your other creatures because of the wording on the card. Note that it counts the counters on the creatures as it enters (kind of like clone), so if there are no counters on your evolve creatures yet, it won't get any counters (this note was mostly in response to a post earlier in this thread)
For all the reasons Young Wolf was bad, Strangleroot Geist is good. It is a relevant creature, it grows your evolve creatures early on without assistance, your opponent doesn't really want to kill it because of all the triggers you will get, and it still works well with Pongify without needing it to be good. I don't think you have to play 4, but it is definitely one of the better cards for the archetype.
Don't play it. It doesn't do anything, and is one of the less good evolve creatures. If there is a world where this deck can be more blue based and run remand, I could see playing it; but as it stands, this card does nothing to improve the deck.
I haven't seen any discussion on this card, but I found it to be an interesting find for this deck. I think the format is currently situated to punish the heavy removal decks, so playing Gyre Sage is fine, but if people beating you with removal is a problem, Wall of Roots may be a better choice. It evolves your early drops since it comes in as an 0/5, gets you extra bursts of mana, and blocks well. Also is a fine target for your Pongify effects when you need extra attackers.
Kind of like Shambleshark, don't play it. It doesn't do anything and it is not impressive for the mana you are putting into it. Even worse, there are no redeeming qualities about it, since the only one I could think of is if you were playing an additional color. But if you were doing that, you wouldn't have to play this terrible card, so not much to talk about there.
This card has been quite solid. It's not great but it allows you to curve out well, and with Hardened Scales, it allows you to have some really explosive openers. An easy turn 1 turn two could involve going turn 1 Experiment one, turn 2 Hardened Scales, Endless One where x=1, it comes in with 2 counters, evolving Experiment One up to a 3/3. And it is a great mana dump for Gyre Sage mana if you have nothing else better to do.
Edit to finish the writeup: 09-08
Non-creature spell selection:
This card is pretty essential to the deck. The best draws with this deck usually involve this card and it allows you to jump your evolves at a considerable rate. It isn't necessarily a 4-of, but I was fine with running 4 until some new cards come out. I would want to run at least 3; I compare this most to Aether Vial in Merfolk, where even though it doesn't do much on its own, it gets you a lot of value as the game goes along. Not a great topdeck, but a good draw in the first 3 turns of the game.
These are basically the same card so I'll talk about both together. I originally started with playing all eight, which felt like too many and meant that a lower number could open up slots for other cards. I then started testing a few iterations of numbers below that, and 7 felt right. You usually don't mind drawing it, it's fine as a removal spell for extremely problematic threats, and you can usually make a plan to get value out of them.
This is one of the cards I am most unsure of, but have been liking its results. It does a great job at smoothing out draws, and I think we need some sort of hand filtering type of effect if we play this few of lands. Since adding in Serum Visions, I have been much happier with the 19 land mana base. The card it is most competition against is Oath of Nissa, which is also good in the same regards, but provides more selection over draw smoothing. Since most of the threats are interchangeable, I have been using Serum Visions which can allow me to plan for the next 2-3 turns, but I can see an argument for running Oath of Nissa in the slot.
I did originally play this card, and I'm not sure I am correct for cutting it. I haven't missed it in games that I've played since, but it did play well when I had it, so I don't really know. The bigger issue is that I don't think this deck needs to play a ton of removal since you want to primarily focus on playing threats, and the Pongify effects fill the role of threat and removal. Having Vapor Snag led to games where I had a bunch of tempo removal spells, but not enough threats to pressure the opponent. By going with only the Pongify effects, I still have some amount of removal if necessary, but it is a lot more versatile.
I kind of wanted to test her out originally, and she's been outstanding. I don't think you can afford to play more than 1-2 of her because of the nature of modern, but she has been great in a lot of different matchups. Against anything removal heavy (especially Liliana decks), she provides additional creatures that have potential to become threats with her -2. Her -2 is her main selling point, and has been great most of the time I've used it. With Hardened Scales out it provides a significant bonus to the board. In addition, I've found this deck to be a lot about "sizing", a concept about just growing your creatures bigger than what your opponent can reasonably interact with (think standard Mono-White Humans). She is great at helping this deck get bigger than other aggro and midrange decks, while still being a solid board presence.
Alright, finally the Sideboard:
Affinity and Lantern control exist. Nothing much more to add there.
This is a solid card against the two previously mentioned decks as well as Boggles. I recommend saving it for Cranial Plating or a Ravager target.
Decent vs Dredge and grindy decks. Against the grindy decks, it is good to have a card that is independently good.
I have really liked this card. Good vs Jund and anything you expect to play a sweeper. Since most people don't know of this deck, they won't play around this card, and it will blow them out. One of the few answers to Supreme Verdict. And the card draw is nice.
I really like this card and wish I could fit in a second one. This has been great against spot removal heavy decks, such as Abzan and Jund. Pretty much if it comes down and you have 2 mana open, it is hard for them to kill anything.
I like this card as a consistent one mana counter spell that is good in the early game at slowing down decks relying on non-creature spells. There is an argument that Stubborn Denial might work better here, but I like the consistency of Spell Pierce.
I have found this card to be a solid bounce spell vs a lot of decks. Against anything that plays troublesome permanents that you want off the board for one turn, tokens, or the heavy pump spell decks, it is solid.
This is good vs removal heavy decks and the pump spell decks. It can give your creatures hexproof, while making it difficult for your opponent to pump their own creatures, because of the wording on vines.
Another "answer" to Supreme Verdict and other uncounterable effects. It also has practical use as a bounce spell.
One last bit on the game play for this deck. A lot of the games will come down to sequencing (one of the reasons I like Serum Visions, since it helps you have additional information to plan out how you will sequence everything). I will almost always start with a one mana creature if I have one. If I don't have a one mana threat, I'll play one of the other one mana spells. If I don't have something to do on turn one, I really expect to have multiple two mana cards, or I'll mulligan the hand. Because how modern is right now, I think it rewards us to aggressively mulligan loose hands. Playing a Hardened Scales comes before playing a Serum Visions, since there is nothing you are trying to really draw for, you are just trying to maximize each turn; Hardened Scales rewards a good topdeck more than Visions. The exception is if you have a one-lander; there I like to lead with Visions to maximize the chance of hitting the second land drop.
After the first turn, it is important to sequence your evolve creatures correctly. If you can, try to maximize your mana each turn. I prefer almost always playing Gyre Sage on turn 2, since it has the most upside; but if the turn otherwise consists of Hardened Scale + Experiment one, the latter play will likely be better. When using the Pongify effects, it is important to understand its role in the matchup. In some matchups it is correct to use it in response to a removal spell; other matchups it will be best to jam it early on Strangleroot Geist; and in other matchups, time it well against their creatures. My favorite use is if my opponent attempts to Path my Geist (people really like to do that). The more you draw, the more freedom you have in how you use them, but you don't really want to draw more than 2-3 if you can avoid it. Also, if you side in Echoing Truth, be aware of which creatures you are hitting with RH and Pongify. It is really useful to turn a lot of their creatures into Apes and then bounce them.
A couple of comments on the below post by D90Dennis14.
Thanks. I like have been liking the deck, and a lot of what you mentioned in the opening thread really helped as I started testing stuff.
The main reason I didn't talk about either card is because I haven't yet tested them. Thrummingbird, while a card I really enjoy, is probably not good enough for modern. Hangarback Walker seemed a little slow, but I really just haven't had a chance to test it.
Some of the next few points I made sure to mention in the additional write up. Gyre Sage may not work out, but I have been impressed with its game play. This deck isn't exactly mana hungry, but the extra mana can give you better options.
On the point about Young Wolf vs Endless One, that was actually the reverse of the switch I made (I took out Young Wolf for Endless One). The reason I like Endless One more is because it is less likely to be irrelevant. When playing with Young Wolf, there were several games that it couldn't do anything and I couldn't get it to die, and I would draw an Avatar of the Resolute or another Young Wolf, and I would be sad. While it does combo well with the Pongify effects, I don't like forcing my hand on using it there, since there are a lot of different situations they can be useful. Endless One also combos much better with Hardened Scales and Gyre Sage, so I am happy making the switch. Oh, and the other tipping point is that Young Wolf has anti-synergy with Nissa; I am fine with some degree of it with Strangleroot Geist, but I don't want too much of that nonbo.
Finally, I'll mention a couple of the new cards I am excited about (not going into much detail until the full set is spoiled).
I think Botanical Sanctum will fit well into this deck and I think Armorcraft Judge will also fit well into this deck. I am still trying to figure out my cuts, but I expect to cut -1x Endless One, -1x Hardened Scales for 2x Armorcraft Judge and -1x Island, -2x Yavimaya Coast, -1x Forest for +4x Botanical Sanctum
^^
That was a great writeup, I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it.
A couple of creatures you haven't mentioned that I have in my original list (I haven't worked on it for a while) are: Hangarback Walker and Thrummingbird, what is your take on them in this deck ?
The new Botanical Sanctum should really improve the deck's mana in both consistency and taking less damage.
I think that Vapor Snag is rather necessary here as both removal to clear away opposing threats to race/out-tempo them or blockers as most of our creatures (except for Avatar and Raptor) lack evasion.
We have Pongify/Rapid Hybridization but they are better as evolve-enablers (sort-of combo pieces) than actual removal as giving opponents a 3/3 is not always a good trade.
Also, playing the full 4x Hardened Scales might be a bit clunky as you usually don't want to draw multiples of them.
I'm not sure about Gyre Sage here as it's rather slow beater and the deck is a fast low-curve aggro/tempo deck so there is not much to spend the mana on and we want to attack every turn anyway.
I also think that Young Wolf is rather essential for the deck's fast starts (which the main reason to play it imho) and I like over Endless One which is decent as a curve filler and gets better with Hardened Scales but is generally unexciting in the early game where the deck has to be as fast and aggresive as possible.
1. Noble Hierarch (instead of Gyre Sage) can be used to speed up the deck and a bit more early damage with exalted triggers.
It also makes Endless One better in this deck (being more relevant earlier).
Another option is Honored Hierarch which can be better on offense if it can get "renowned" early.
2. Rancor can be used as an evasion source that speeds up the clock.
3. It might be too cute but together with Pongify/Rapid Hybridization we can use Hunger of the Howlpack as powerful pump spell.
On a similar note Bioshift can be used to move around counters from a creature targeted by removal or to creatures with evasion (Avatar, C.Raptor) and also to reset the evolve process. Give // Take can also be an interesting option.
I have a few pieces for a similar deck and I might end up building one. Have you guys tried Servant of the Scale? It synergizes with hardened scales and the ability looks promising. It might be slow but I think it's worth testing.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
Aquastrand Spider was okay when I was play testing a similar list. Graft and Fathom Mage is incredibly good for refueling. It's nice to bulk up Hangarback Walkers on ETB too. Sequencing for maximum sized avatar of the resolutes becomes less tricky with graft dudes as well. That being said, the spider is really the only one that seemed remotely decent to me.
I'm also a big fan of Managorger Hydra. After about 2 turns it's a must answer threat and just goes bonkers with animation module with and lower curve. Especially if my opponent is wasting resources answering my turn 1-2 plays to avoid taking too much damage.
Something I've been trying to figure out, and Remand does seem like a step in the right direction, is closing the door to games after round 4. I need to figure out a way to lock my opponent out and secure the win. Also, combo decks like storm just seem like the blast through my deck list. I'm a turn or two slower than most combo decks, which has been rough. I'm very close to you, aside from 1-2 copies of the above mentioned.
I played around with a U/G list similar to this before I quit MTGO.
One of my favorite pieces of tech, and one that might be in a similar vein to helping 'close the door' as mapccu mentioned is Silumgar Sorcerer. It plays well with the Undying creatures, and even if sacced to itself can get incidental value in Evolve triggers on other creatures.
Combining Silumgar Sorcerer with Remand and Shambleshark can give the deck various lines at instant speed. Worth considering for a more tempo-oriented approach.
It seems a bit slow and doesn't impact the board enough (at 3-cmc Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is better).
I like Remand better for the cantrip and the tempo play.
Spellskite should be main or at least in the board. High toughness will help with evolving and the ability will keep your dudes alive... As well as randomly beating some decks.
To further support the counters theme creatures like:
Hangarback Walker, Avatar of the Resolute and Thrummingbird are included.
Here is the deck:
4x Avatar of the Resolute
4x Cloudfin Raptor
4x Experiment One
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Strangleroot Geist
2x Thrummingbird
4x Young Wolf
Enchantment (3)
3x Hardened Scales
4x Pongify
4x Rapid Hybridization
4x Vapor Snag
Land (19)
4x Breeding Pool
5x Forest
2x Island
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
1x Echoing Truth
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Mana Leak
2x Dismember
2x Natural State
2x Beast Within
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Spell Pierce
1. What do you think of the deck ?
2.Any improvements I can make to the deck or other cards that work in this deck ?
It can also have some slow hands with a bunch of evolve creatures and spells and no bigger creatures to grow them.
I'm still looking for ideas on how to make the deck more consistent.
Which decks and how'd you do against each one? I know it's a drag but the more info you offer the more people can suggest/help.
Removal is everywhere but perhaps some Simic Charm can help? It's in-color and versatility is always a plus.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Cards with graft:
Vigean Hydropon: Basically counter storage. With Scales on the field this becomes 'each creature ETB with two +1/+1 counters'.
Plaxcaster Frogling: More counter storage with the additional benefit of letting creatures survive any removal.
Relevant cards with evolve:
Renegade Krasis: Counters, counters everywhere.
Experiment One: Already in the deck.
Cloudfin Raptor: Already in the deck.
Shambleshark: I like the idea of a fish crab, but besides the flash and two power it doesn't present many advantages over Experiment or Cloudfin.
Gyre Sage: Could be very useful ramp.
Elusive Krasis: Unblockable is very powerful, and it's unBolt-able. With Scales, it'd evolve quickly.
Fathom Mage: Useful card draw.
Also could see shenanigans with Chasm Skulker and Lorescale Coatl.
edit: Slight problem; was testing this on XMage with Experiment One on the field, along with Scales. I sent in Avatar of the Resolute, but the counter only got placed on Experiment after Avatar entered the field, so Avatar didn't get a counter either. That's a bit of an anti-synergy.
Also, Torpor Orb kills this deck stone dead. Someone boarded that in against me, no fun. That same person using an artifacts deck used Dispatch which exiled the Undying geist, no fun either.
Also also... this deck seems to run out of steam a little bit. Once you've evolved your Evolve creatures with Scales on the board once, Pongify or Hybridization only put a 3/3 on the board, so that won't force another evolution, except on Cloudfin Raptor. So the most that's gonna happen here is a bunch of 2/3, 3/3 creatures with not a lot of backup, I feel...
Renegade Krasis is nowhere near as awesome as it could be because its effect requires it to evolve, not just have a counter put on it. Since it enters as a 3/2, you need either something with 4 power or 3 toughness; few creatures will trigger it. I've got a semi-casual Simic counters deck and it's just not worth the slot.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I mostly faced Abzan and Grixis Control.
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet absolutely wrecked me when dropped on turn 4 and Scavenging Ooze was hard to deal with as well (though Vapor Snag helped against him for a couple of turns).
Unless I start very fast the lack of real removal proves troublesome.
I have Mutant's Prey in the SB but i'm not sure it is good enough and consider replacing it with Dismember.
Simic Charm seems like a good idea for the sideboard.
About the other Evolve/Graft creatures mentioned here, I'm not interested in the 3-4 cmc ones as I need mana to play my spells as well and keep the deck fast.
The only one that might be somehow relevant is Shambleshark, but I think that Hangarback Walker is a better option.
I wonder if Bioshift can help this deck or is it too cute a trick to rely on (it can also help "crack" H.Walker if I need flyers).
And my spell slots are rather limited (4x R.H, 4x V.S and 4x Pong) unless I remove Thrummingbird which I didn't get to draw yet but seems to have potential in this deck.
If you have an Experiment One no counters, you get two triggered abilities when the Avatar of the Resolute enters the battlefield, one for the E1 and one for the Avatar. Stack them so that the E1's ability resolves first, it gets a counter and then the Avatar's ability resolves and it will get a counter also.
Definitely shift to Dismember; can be used without creatures on board and kills a lot of stuff.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
1. Void Grafter can replace Hangarback Walker (which is rather slow and expensive).
It has "flash" to counter removal (granting hexproof) and "Evolves" most of my creatures.
Another "flash" option is Bounding Krasis but it seems not as good at Evolving, and tapping can be good but I think I prefer the hexproof ability.
2. Thrummingbird has a pretty good synergy with the deck but is rather slow, I consider replacing it with a combat trick like Hunger of the Howlpack which can be cast with "Morbid" pretty reliably in this deck.
Or maybe go with Rancor for power boost and evasion.
3. Skyrider Elf can be 2/2 flier for 2cmc in the deck and Endless One can also be a scalable creature in this deck.
Another creature I thought about using is Quirion Dryad which can be triggered by 18 blue spells in the deck.
Another option is just to put Scavenging Ooze in the mainboard...(which I still need to get as it is rather expensive online)
What do you think ?
2. I get that Morbid is easy to trigger with the 1-mana kill spells, so it could work.
3. Go for skyrider I guess? Flying is very valuable.
4. Some maindeck Scooze could work, it's rarely a dead card.
Have you faced any different decks since last time? You mentioned Abzan and Grixis control, not sure what other stuff has popped up and how you did against it.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
4x Cloudfin Raptor
4x Experiment One
4x Gyre Sage
4x Strangleroot Gesit
4x Avatar of the Resolute
4x Endless One
Other (17)
4x Rapid Hybridization
3x Pongify
4x Serum Visions
4x Hardened Scales
2x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Windswept Heath
4x Breeding Pool
1x Hinterland Harbor
2x Yavimaya Coast
2x Island
4x Forest
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Natural State
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Inspiring Call
1x Plaxcaster Frogling
2x Spell Pierce
1x Echoing Truth
2x Vines of Vastwood
1x Unsubstantiate
Now a quick run through of a bunch of stuff I learned while testing this deck:
First, this deck feels very powerful. One of the things with where modern is right now is that you need a good "nut" draw, meaning a good way to either win the game or have an insurmountable board state by turn 3. This deck has several ways of setting up one of these draws with either Cloudfin Raptor and/or Experiment One, Hardened Scales, Strangleroot Geist, and either Pongify or Rapid Hybridization. This means that a turn 3 for this deck could be swinging for 13 with a 4/5, a 5/5, a 4/3, and a 3/3 on board. If you are on the play, it's hard for a lot of decks to race that without drawing perfectly themselves.
Another thing I noticed is that the cards are very good at playing different roles in different matchups. Pongify/Rapid Hybridization is best at demonstrating that by being efficient removal vs decks that care about their specific creatures or use pump spells (ie Death Shadow or Infect), being a tempo way of keeping a board presence vs removal heavy decks (ie Jund, Jeskai, and Abzan), and allowing you to upgrade your creatures into better threats to help race vs the more unfair combo type decks. The other cool part is that none of the specific creatures matter too much, so you really don't mind your opponent's removal except that it potentially messes with your board presence. I would say Avatar of the Resolute (mainly because it can block fliers and push damage pretty effectively) and Gyre Sage (mainly for the potential mana) are the only two I like to work to keep alive, but most of the threats are so interchangeable that it really doesn't matter.
Alright now on some of the creatures and how they've worked out:
Edit to finish the writeup: 09-08
Non-creature spell selection:
Alright, finally the Sideboard:
One last bit on the game play for this deck. A lot of the games will come down to sequencing (one of the reasons I like Serum Visions, since it helps you have additional information to plan out how you will sequence everything). I will almost always start with a one mana creature if I have one. If I don't have a one mana threat, I'll play one of the other one mana spells. If I don't have something to do on turn one, I really expect to have multiple two mana cards, or I'll mulligan the hand. Because how modern is right now, I think it rewards us to aggressively mulligan loose hands. Playing a Hardened Scales comes before playing a Serum Visions, since there is nothing you are trying to really draw for, you are just trying to maximize each turn; Hardened Scales rewards a good topdeck more than Visions. The exception is if you have a one-lander; there I like to lead with Visions to maximize the chance of hitting the second land drop.
After the first turn, it is important to sequence your evolve creatures correctly. If you can, try to maximize your mana each turn. I prefer almost always playing Gyre Sage on turn 2, since it has the most upside; but if the turn otherwise consists of Hardened Scale + Experiment one, the latter play will likely be better. When using the Pongify effects, it is important to understand its role in the matchup. In some matchups it is correct to use it in response to a removal spell; other matchups it will be best to jam it early on Strangleroot Geist; and in other matchups, time it well against their creatures. My favorite use is if my opponent attempts to Path my Geist (people really like to do that). The more you draw, the more freedom you have in how you use them, but you don't really want to draw more than 2-3 if you can avoid it. Also, if you side in Echoing Truth, be aware of which creatures you are hitting with RH and Pongify. It is really useful to turn a lot of their creatures into Apes and then bounce them.
A couple of comments on the below post by D90Dennis14.
Thanks. I like have been liking the deck, and a lot of what you mentioned in the opening thread really helped as I started testing stuff.
The main reason I didn't talk about either card is because I haven't yet tested them. Thrummingbird, while a card I really enjoy, is probably not good enough for modern. Hangarback Walker seemed a little slow, but I really just haven't had a chance to test it.
Some of the next few points I made sure to mention in the additional write up.
Gyre Sage may not work out, but I have been impressed with its game play. This deck isn't exactly mana hungry, but the extra mana can give you better options.
On the point about Young Wolf vs Endless One, that was actually the reverse of the switch I made (I took out Young Wolf for Endless One). The reason I like Endless One more is because it is less likely to be irrelevant. When playing with Young Wolf, there were several games that it couldn't do anything and I couldn't get it to die, and I would draw an Avatar of the Resolute or another Young Wolf, and I would be sad. While it does combo well with the Pongify effects, I don't like forcing my hand on using it there, since there are a lot of different situations they can be useful. Endless One also combos much better with Hardened Scales and Gyre Sage, so I am happy making the switch. Oh, and the other tipping point is that Young Wolf has anti-synergy with Nissa; I am fine with some degree of it with Strangleroot Geist, but I don't want too much of that nonbo.
Finally, I'll mention a couple of the new cards I am excited about (not going into much detail until the full set is spoiled).
That was a great writeup, I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it.
A couple of creatures you haven't mentioned that I have in my original list (I haven't worked on it for a while) are:
Hangarback Walker and Thrummingbird, what is your take on them in this deck ?
The new Botanical Sanctum should really improve the deck's mana in both consistency and taking less damage.
What about using Oath of Nissa over Serum Visions here as the deck is mostly creature-based anyway ?
I think that Vapor Snag is rather necessary here as both removal to clear away opposing threats to race/out-tempo them or blockers as most of our creatures (except for Avatar and Raptor) lack evasion.
We have Pongify/Rapid Hybridization but they are better as evolve-enablers (sort-of combo pieces) than actual removal as giving opponents a 3/3 is not always a good trade.
Also, playing the full 4x Hardened Scales might be a bit clunky as you usually don't want to draw multiples of them.
I'm not sure about Gyre Sage here as it's rather slow beater and the deck is a fast low-curve aggro/tempo deck so there is not much to spend the mana on and we want to attack every turn anyway.
I also think that Young Wolf is rather essential for the deck's fast starts (which the main reason to play it imho) and I like over Endless One which is decent as a curve filler and gets better with Hardened Scales but is generally unexciting in the early game where the deck has to be as fast and aggresive as possible.
Armorcraft Judge seems too slow for this deck.
Some other ideas:
1. Noble Hierarch (instead of Gyre Sage) can be used to speed up the deck and a bit more early damage with exalted triggers.
It also makes Endless One better in this deck (being more relevant earlier).
Another option is Honored Hierarch which can be better on offense if it can get "renowned" early.
2. Rancor can be used as an evasion source that speeds up the clock.
3. It might be too cute but together with Pongify/Rapid Hybridization we can use Hunger of the Howlpack as powerful pump spell.
On a similar note Bioshift can be used to move around counters from a creature targeted by removal or to creatures with evasion (Avatar, C.Raptor) and also to reset the evolve process.
Give // Take can also be an interesting option.
4. Some more potential creature options:
Undergrowth Champion, Champion of Lambholt, Void Grafter (protection and evolving), Bounding Krasis (evolving and tempo plays),
Managorger Hydra, Quirion Dryad (with more blue cards).
Going out are: 4x Hangarback Walker, 2x Thrummingbird and 1x Rapid Hybridization.
Here is the updated list that I'm going with now:
4x Cloudfin Raptor
4x Experiment One
4x Young Wolf
4x Avatar of the Resolute
4x Strangleroot Geist
4x Scavenging Ooze
Enchantment (3)
3x Hardened Scales
Instant (14)
4x Pongify
3x Rapid Hybridization
4x Vapor Snag
3x Remand
4x Botanical Sanctum
4x Breeding Pool
3x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
2x Island
1x Echoing Truth
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Mana Leak
2x Dismember
2x Natural State
2x Beast Within
1x Unsubstantiate
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2x Spell Pierce
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
Animation Module will help you go wider, which makes Nissa, Voice of Zendikar much stronger imo. The card seems easily breakable in a shell like this.
I'm also a big fan of Managorger Hydra. After about 2 turns it's a must answer threat and just goes bonkers with animation module with and lower curve. Especially if my opponent is wasting resources answering my turn 1-2 plays to avoid taking too much damage.
Something I've been trying to figure out, and Remand does seem like a step in the right direction, is closing the door to games after round 4. I need to figure out a way to lock my opponent out and secure the win. Also, combo decks like storm just seem like the blast through my deck list. I'm a turn or two slower than most combo decks, which has been rough. I'm very close to you, aside from 1-2 copies of the above mentioned.
One of my favorite pieces of tech, and one that might be in a similar vein to helping 'close the door' as mapccu mentioned is Silumgar Sorcerer. It plays well with the Undying creatures, and even if sacced to itself can get incidental value in Evolve triggers on other creatures.
Combining Silumgar Sorcerer with Remand and Shambleshark can give the deck various lines at instant speed. Worth considering for a more tempo-oriented approach.
For more ideas, check out this article from Gerry Thompson:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31605_Daily-Digest-Tempo-Is-Weird.html
I like Remand better for the cantrip and the tempo play.
#Greenwheel Liberator - can be close to copies 5-8x of Avatar of the Resolute.
#Narnam Renegade - another 1-drop option for the deck, an easier condition to hit than something like Skarrgan Pit-Skulk.
#Rishkar, Peema Renegade - a bit slow but can put counters on 2x creatures and generate mana, probably not as good a 3-drop option as Nissa, voice of Zendikar.
#Skyship Plunderer - a better attacker than Thrummingbird that can buff only one creature at a time, I'm not sure if it's good enough though.
Greenwheel Liberator seems like the most viable option out of them.