Without A.Vial the deck is actually very slow playing a single (not particulary big) creature per turn.
You also don't always have Rattlechains for your creatures to have flash, Phantasmal Image is also basically unplayable without A.Vial imho.
Honestly, I believe AEther Vial is simply a preference/optional card based on the type of list you wish to run. I have run lists with it and without, I prefer the list without it and run Remand and Serum Visions in those spots. My version is a little more tempo than aggro but it works for me, got a couple practice games in after FNM last night vs abzan 2-0 (ran slivers at the FNM).
I think that without Aether Vial you're basically playing a worse version of "Bant CoCo Spirits" (which is probably the better deck anyway due to CoCo and the acceleration of Noble Hierarch).
So last page an intersting esper build was discussed with pale rider of trostad. This piqued my interest and i would like to try it out someday. Here's my idea:
The main addition is plagued rusalka, which seems perfect with bloodghast and lingering souls. The mana costs are heavier on black and i tried to fix the mana for it. Urborg in particular seems like a perfect fit. I also though of playing nether traitor as an additional value sac/discard fodder, but i think bloodghast is just generally better.
Thoughts?
I really like the thought of having a Bloodghast in the yard while a Mausoleum Wanderer is on the battlefield and a fetch land is on my side of the battlefield. I can cheat bloogghast in to respond to my opponent's instant or sorcery and then sac mausoleum wanderer with 1 more power than my opponent might be expecting (or at least my opponent has to play around that). Bloodghast could also work pretty well with Nebelghast Herald. I'm the guy who was interested in Pale Rider, so please let me know how it goes in testing.
If you're not going to run vial you have to go heavier control. I think having actual counter magic becomes a must without it. I also agree on Phantasmal Image being bad without it. And that's why I run snapcaster mage. It has flash and that's pretty great.
So this Wednesday went 4-0
R1 bye
R2 win 2-0 vs living end. Won G1 despite a bad misplay, I activated vial at the end of my opponent's turn with two wanderers up, he responded with violent outburst, should have kept vial up to make him pay more. Thankfully all my saccable spirits were brough back and nebelgast herald x2 held the fort vs his massive board. G2 thalia wrecked my opponent, he had a poor draw too.
R3 win 2-0 vs archangel of thune/eldrazi/eldritch evolution. My opponent didn't get the combo draws, felt like a regular eldrazi matchup. His deck is sweet and is capable of awesome things, evolution on matter reshaper is super good, but he was mostly mana dork flooded.
R4 win 2-1 vs g/r tron. Was technically an intentional draw but we played for fun anyways. G1 double kozilek's return plus pseudo flashback trigger was too much. G2-3 I got to disrupt his plan of assembling tron and won on tempo.
Not gonna try the esper version until a little while. I'm currently trying to build another deck and i'm not interested in investing in (relatively) expensive bloodghasts that might not even be good (has to be tested). To be honest i'm satisfied with my current version and the esper list was mostly brainstorming
Ace1 what do you think of using Séance as your 2 card flex spot? Returning Drogskull gives a damage boost, returning anything with nebelghast herald (or returning herald) will tap down something. Can buy back mosoleum wanderer or pump moseoleum wanderer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Ace1 what do you think of using Séance as your 2 card flex spot? Returning Drogskull gives a damage boost, returning anything with nebelghast herald (or returning herald) will tap down something. Can buy back mosoleum wanderer or pump moseoleum wanderer.
The problem with that card is you may run out of gas, which is already our weakness, so it doesn't solve anything. We don't have ways to fuel our graveyard other than naturally losing creatures to non-path to exile removal and saccing some of them. To me, it seems to me like an enchantment version of moorland haunt. Haunt conveniently take a land slot as opposed to being a 4 drop, and while the land's token are less strong, they at least stick around. The séance tokens don't ever get to attack so its not even good after a sweeper. It will only be good if you have stuff, at which point it becomes unreliably win-more.
You probbaly are right. The moorland haunt conparison is very acurate.
If the problem is we run out of gass how come nobody has tryed Thief of Hope? He is double gass. Double blocks on the ground, let you rebuy 2 cost spirits. Can drain a bit on the side.
Ace1 also plays Thalia, Heretic Cathar in his maindeck and that also seems a very good choice (also from the sideboard, i use it against storm/cheerios, tron and spell based decks very effectively).
But yeah i like having her (until another playable 2-mana spirit is printed at least) in the main. Since we don't play card selection tools like serum visions, ancient stirrings, etc, i want to achieve consistency with roles cards play. I have 8 cards to deal with creatures (nebelgast herald and path to exile), 4 mausoleum wanderers for instants/sorceries + 2 thalia for non-creatures in general (those last two go well together too) and 4x spell queller as a catch-all counter. This gives the deck enough answer density to deal with most of the field, while we play our tempo game.
I've been pondering running a one or two of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage to help with grindy matches. With the Nebelgast Herald out it's easy to get good card draw off of her, and she can act as removal for a time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It is much worse as you don't draw the card immediately and 1/2 is worse than 2/1 (it is also not a flier like most of the spirits in the deck).
As a slow card draw source Bygone Bishop seems much better.
I've been off playing Eldrazi variants lately (Eldrazi Tron and more happily, Death and Staxes), but I still really, really want this deck to be at least Tier 2 and I feel like it is just a 1 or 2 solid cards from Amonkhet from being there. Nonetheless, I was not unhappy with the following UW Vial list, closer to what Ace1 runs quite happily.
Sideboard pretty much reflects my local meta, don't pay it much mind (more Abzan Company, Sun and Moon, Affinity and Lantern, and BW Eldrazi and Taxes.)
I like finding Mimic enough to get value out of it, and it is pretty much a card they have to kill or it accelerates our game plan significantly. It still isn't a replacement for a proper Lord or something that is already a Spirit, but there isn't anything else really exciting.
You could do more spells, but I happen to really believe that threat density is what matters here and we let our creatures be the spells.
The only criticism i'd make of your list is the 4x hallowed fountain. This is something i've seen a lot on this thread and i don't agree with. We don't have to take that much pain from our land. 2x fountain is perfectly fine, we are 2 colors so our mana is good enough. I'd change the 2 other fountain for fetchland. This has the advantage of making our mana resilient to blood moon because of the ability to search for basic. Once you get a plains and an island, our mana is functional. running 8 fetchlands and 6 fetch targets is totally fine, i almost never run out of fetch targets and at the point you would, you'd already have 6 lands in play which is more than enough.
With that being said, report time with u/w spirits!
Monday went 2-1
R1 win 2-0 vs bant eldrazi, generally a good matchup
R2 loss 1-2 vs burn, close games, G3 i was one turn away from winning opponent had a burn as his last card while i had 3 lands in hand, very close!
R3 win 2-0 vs necrotic ooze combo, G2 my opponent had the win but did not see it, and i could have prevented this a couple turns before if i played better.
Tuesday went 3-0
R1 win 2-0 vs edlazi evolution, my opponent was mana dork flooded G1, and had trouble with his mana G2, but still played stuff, but i had the answers.
R2 win 2-0 vs elves, always close and exciting games, but my tempo was too strong.
R3 win 2-0 vs bant CoCo, my air force was stronger than his, and i had enough answers for stuff. He quellered me a couple of times but i was able to force the block and got my stuff back.
Wednesday went 2-1 in a micro event (we were four because of a snowstorm that kept people inside).
R1 loss 0-2 vs u/r faeries, G1 mull to 4 and lost but the game was close. G2 lost to a couple of blowouts, i did make a few misplays.
R2 win 2-0 vs sram, senior edificer/kor spiritdancer aura deck. Was like bogles but no hexproof dorks.
R3 win 2-1 vs naya burn. All games were close, but a series of good draws got me there, involving multiple spell queller G3.
Metallic mimic was just ok, it is mostly there because of a lack of other good options.
I did play with anafenza a while back and mimic is just better for a couple of reasons:
It isn't legendary. This doesn't come up often but having two on the field is huge.
It is easier to cast. The double white cost is rough, especially with all the colorless mana lands i play. This isn't an issue for the other 2 drops because they have a colorless in their cost. I often was forced to fetch shock just to be able to cast anafenza, or just couldn't cast her on turn 2. Mimic will always be there with any two lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
modern:UW spirits, BR goblins
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You also don't always have Rattlechains for your creatures to have flash, Phantasmal Image is also basically unplayable without A.Vial imho.
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
Tried it and reported my tournament with it. Scroll up to post #947.
I see why it is bad. None of the spirits really have any ETB effects we wanne re use.
I really like the thought of having a Bloodghast in the yard while a Mausoleum Wanderer is on the battlefield and a fetch land is on my side of the battlefield. I can cheat bloogghast in to respond to my opponent's instant or sorcery and then sac mausoleum wanderer with 1 more power than my opponent might be expecting (or at least my opponent has to play around that). Bloodghast could also work pretty well with Nebelghast Herald. I'm the guy who was interested in Pale Rider, so please let me know how it goes in testing.
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept heath
2 Polluted delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Seachrome coast
2 Cavern of souls
2 Moorland haunt
2 Ghost quarter
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Rattlechains
2 Thalia, guardian of thraben
2 Phantasmal image
2 Metallic mimic
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol captain
4 Nebelgast herald
Artifact: 4
4 Aether vial
4 Path to exile
2 Ceremonious rejection
2 Blessed alliance
2 Detention sphere
2 Stony silence
2 Rest in peace
2 Burrenton forge-tender
2 Eidolon of rhetoric
1 Kira, great glass spinner
So this Wednesday went 4-0
R1 bye
R2 win 2-0 vs living end. Won G1 despite a bad misplay, I activated vial at the end of my opponent's turn with two wanderers up, he responded with violent outburst, should have kept vial up to make him pay more. Thankfully all my saccable spirits were brough back and nebelgast herald x2 held the fort vs his massive board. G2 thalia wrecked my opponent, he had a poor draw too.
R3 win 2-0 vs archangel of thune/eldrazi/eldritch evolution. My opponent didn't get the combo draws, felt like a regular eldrazi matchup. His deck is sweet and is capable of awesome things, evolution on matter reshaper is super good, but he was mostly mana dork flooded.
R4 win 2-1 vs g/r tron. Was technically an intentional draw but we played for fun anyways. G1 double kozilek's return plus pseudo flashback trigger was too much. G2-3 I got to disrupt his plan of assembling tron and won on tempo.
Not gonna try the esper version until a little while. I'm currently trying to build another deck and i'm not interested in investing in (relatively) expensive bloodghasts that might not even be good (has to be tested). To be honest i'm satisfied with my current version and the esper list was mostly brainstorming
The problem with that card is you may run out of gas, which is already our weakness, so it doesn't solve anything. We don't have ways to fuel our graveyard other than naturally losing creatures to non-path to exile removal and saccing some of them. To me, it seems to me like an enchantment version of moorland haunt. Haunt conveniently take a land slot as opposed to being a 4 drop, and while the land's token are less strong, they at least stick around. The séance tokens don't ever get to attack so its not even good after a sweeper. It will only be good if you have stuff, at which point it becomes unreliably win-more.
If the problem is we run out of gass how come nobody has tryed Thief of Hope? He is double gass. Double blocks on the ground, let you rebuy 2 cost spirits. Can drain a bit on the side.
I think you mean thalia, guardian of thraben? Thalia, heretic cathar would be, like, not very good, lol.
But yeah i like having her (until another playable 2-mana spirit is printed at least) in the main. Since we don't play card selection tools like serum visions, ancient stirrings, etc, i want to achieve consistency with roles cards play. I have 8 cards to deal with creatures (nebelgast herald and path to exile), 4 mausoleum wanderers for instants/sorceries + 2 thalia for non-creatures in general (those last two go well together too) and 4x spell queller as a catch-all counter. This gives the deck enough answer density to deal with most of the field, while we play our tempo game.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As a slow card draw source Bygone Bishop seems much better.
Sideboard pretty much reflects my local meta, don't pay it much mind (more Abzan Company, Sun and Moon, Affinity and Lantern, and BW Eldrazi and Taxes.)
I like finding Mimic enough to get value out of it, and it is pretty much a card they have to kill or it accelerates our game plan significantly. It still isn't a replacement for a proper Lord or something that is already a Spirit, but there isn't anything else really exciting.
You could do more spells, but I happen to really believe that threat density is what matters here and we let our creatures be the spells.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome coast
2 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Cavern of souls
1 Moorland haunt
Creatures 31
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol captain
4 Rattlechains
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Metallic mimic
3 Nebelgast herald
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
2 Phantasmal image
1 Kira, great glass-spinner
4 Aether vial
Instants 4
2 Path to exile
2 Blessed alliance
2 Ceremonious rejection
2 Flashfreeze
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in peace
2 Eidolon of rhetoric
2 Fragmentize
1 Grafdigger's Caage
1 Stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
With that being said, report time with u/w spirits!
Same list as before:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept heath
2 Polluted delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Seachrome coast
2 Cavern of souls
2 Moorland haunt
2 Ghost quarter
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Rattlechains
2 Thalia, guardian of thraben
2 Phantasmal image
2 Metallic mimic
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol captain
4 Nebelgast herald
Artifact: 4
4 Aether vial
4 Path to exile
2 Ceremonious rejection
2 Blessed alliance
2 Detention sphere
2 Stony silence
2 Rest in peace
2 Burrenton forge-tender
2 Eidolon of rhetoric
1 Kira, great glass spinner
Monday went 2-1
R1 win 2-0 vs bant eldrazi, generally a good matchup
R2 loss 1-2 vs burn, close games, G3 i was one turn away from winning opponent had a burn as his last card while i had 3 lands in hand, very close!
R3 win 2-0 vs necrotic ooze combo, G2 my opponent had the win but did not see it, and i could have prevented this a couple turns before if i played better.
Tuesday went 3-0
R1 win 2-0 vs edlazi evolution, my opponent was mana dork flooded G1, and had trouble with his mana G2, but still played stuff, but i had the answers.
R2 win 2-0 vs elves, always close and exciting games, but my tempo was too strong.
R3 win 2-0 vs bant CoCo, my air force was stronger than his, and i had enough answers for stuff. He quellered me a couple of times but i was able to force the block and got my stuff back.
Wednesday went 2-1 in a micro event (we were four because of a snowstorm that kept people inside).
R1 loss 0-2 vs u/r faeries, G1 mull to 4 and lost but the game was close. G2 lost to a couple of blowouts, i did make a few misplays.
R2 win 2-0 vs sram, senior edificer/kor spiritdancer aura deck. Was like bogles but no hexproof dorks.
R3 win 2-1 vs naya burn. All games were close, but a series of good draws got me there, involving multiple spell queller G3.
Isn't Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit almost strictly better having 1 more toughness and being able to be "flashed in" with Rattlechains ?
Metallic mimic was just ok, it is mostly there because of a lack of other good options.
I did play with anafenza a while back and mimic is just better for a couple of reasons:
It isn't legendary. This doesn't come up often but having two on the field is huge.
It is easier to cast. The double white cost is rough, especially with all the colorless mana lands i play. This isn't an issue for the other 2 drops because they have a colorless in their cost. I often was forced to fetch shock just to be able to cast anafenza, or just couldn't cast her on turn 2. Mimic will always be there with any two lands.