All right, Here's a midrange/tempo option, based off what people have said and some digging about. As people have said before, I think this is the best kind of build, because spirit tribal just wouldn't have the power to race the best aggro decks in the format.
i wanted to make an auras version with Tallowisp, but I think it misses Kira too much.
The weakness of this deck seems to be Drogskol captain. It does give hexproof to everything else, but it's also a Lord, meaning it would be the obvious target for spot removal anyway. Hence in this deck, it's basically a Spellskite that dies to almost everything.
So I don't think this deck wants to run out a single captain until it can protect it with either Rattlechains, a second captain, or Kira, which likely means turn 5 or 6, and at best turn 4. Obviously double captain is the ideal spot to be in, but getting there seems unlikely.
Will need to wait and see in testing if the deck has enough evasion and control to survive.
If you're going to go the tempo route, why would you drop Aether Vial? The fact that it lets you cast your creatures for basically no cost at instant speed is half the reason that Merfolk is successful, since it allows to leave up counter mana and still get a threat in play if nothing of note happens. I know that Rattlechains gets you the flash anyway, which is nice, but getting two EOT creatures, or an EOT creature and a sell is always gonna be better than just a single action. Plus, it's a Kolaghan's Command magnet, which can keep Drogskol safer later on.
All right, Here's a midrange/tempo option, based off what people have said and some digging about. As people have said before, I think this is the best kind of build, because spirit tribal just wouldn't have the power to race the best aggro decks in the format.
i wanted to make an auras version with Tallowisp, but I think it misses Kira too much.
The weakness of this deck seems to be Drogskol captain. It does give hexproof to everything else, but it's also a Lord, meaning it would be the obvious target for spot removal anyway. Hence in this deck, it's basically a Spellskite that dies to almost everything.
So I don't think this deck wants to run out a single captain until it can protect it with either Rattlechains, a second captain, or Kira, which likely means turn 5 or 6, and at best turn 4. Obviously double captain is the ideal spot to be in, but getting there seems unlikely.
Will need to wait and see in testing if the deck has enough evasion and control to survive.
If you're going to go the tempo route, why would you drop Aether Vial? The fact that it lets you cast your creatures for basically no cost at instant speed is half the reason that Merfolk is successful, since it allows to leave up counter mana and still get a threat in play if nothing of note happens. I know that Rattlechains gets you the flash anyway, which is nice, but getting two EOT creatures, or an EOT creature and a sell is always gonna be better than just a single action. Plus, it's a Kolaghan's Command magnet, which can keep Drogskol safer later on.
It feels like Aether Vial is underwhelming in our deck because of our lack of 1-2 drops. It'll most likely sit there for a few turns doing nothing.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Why don't you run Phantasmal Image anymore? In a build with Aether Vial it is much stronger than Kira. Is there just not enough to copy?
I guess Phantasmal Image works best in a creature heavy shell, though obviously in the list above, copying a captain to immediately protect your entire board is awesome. If you don't draw a captain though, I can't see many great plays available; you really want the image to have hexproof. If Geist weren't legendary there'd probably be enough decent targets (I'm pretty sure if image copies Rattlechains and tries to give itself hexproof until EoT, the image just dies immediately?)
Maybe dropping the Kiras and run 2 Drift of Phantasms and 2 Phantasmal Image could work. The idea being that you now have 8 cards in the form of 4 captains, 2 drifts and 2 images, and if you draw any two of them (except both images) you have a line to getting hexproof over your entire board, either by playing the cards out or by transmuting for a captain first. The only card that's pretty dead on its own is image, so I'd keep it to 2. Transmuting is sorcery speed and pretty slow, so I don't know how smooth this would play.
Nah, I don't think it's worth running 2 copies of a card as mediocre as Drift of Phantasms at all. Also, why would you be using Phantasmal Image copying a Rattlechains ability to give ITSELF hexproof? You'd want to be bringing it in response to a different creature getting targeted and saving that one.
My personal issue with Phantasmal Image is that it can only serve that kind of reactive role in the deck if you have an Aether Vial out, which means that you deck hinges pretty heavily on a card that I think is kinda mediocre when you're wanting to get it to 3 most of the time, and you don't have a ton of creatures in the first place.
Why don't you run Phantasmal Image anymore? In a build with Aether Vial it is much stronger than Kira. Is there just not enough to copy?
I guess Phantasmal Image works best in a creature heavy shell, though obviously in the list above, copying a captain to immediately protect your entire board is awesome. If you don't draw a captain though, I can't see many great plays available; you really want the image to have hexproof. If Geist weren't legendary there'd probably be enough decent targets (I'm pretty sure if image copies Rattlechains and tries to give itself hexproof until EoT, the image just dies immediately?)
Maybe dropping the Kiras and run 2 Drift of Phantasms and 2 Phantasmal Image could work. The idea being that you now have 8 cards in the form of 4 captains, 2 drifts and 2 images, and if you draw any two of them (except both images) you have a line to getting hexproof over your entire board, either by playing the cards out or by transmuting for a captain first. The only card that's pretty dead on its own is image, so I'd keep it to 2. Transmuting is sorcery speed and pretty slow, so I don't know how smooth this would play.
Nah, I don't think it's worth running 2 copies of a card as mediocre as Drift of Phantasms at all. Also, why would you be using Phantasmal Image copying a Rattlechains ability to give ITSELF hexproof? You'd want to be bringing it in response to a different creature getting targeted and saving that one.
My personal issue with Phantasmal Image is that it can only serve that kind of reactive role in the deck if you have an Aether Vial out, which means that you deck hinges pretty heavily on a card that I think is kinda mediocre when you're wanting to get it to 3 most of the time, and you don't have a ton of creatures in the first place.
Using Phantasmal Image to copy Rattlechains and give itself hexproof (or flashing in Rattlechains to give it hexproof) would kill the Image due to a targeted ability...
Why don't you run Phantasmal Image anymore? In a build with Aether Vial it is much stronger than Kira. Is there just not enough to copy?
I guess Phantasmal Image works best in a creature heavy shell, though obviously in the list above, copying a captain to immediately protect your entire board is awesome. If you don't draw a captain though, I can't see many great plays available; you really want the image to have hexproof. If Geist weren't legendary there'd probably be enough decent targets (I'm pretty sure if image copies Rattlechains and tries to give itself hexproof until EoT, the image just dies immediately?)
Maybe dropping the Kiras and run 2 Drift of Phantasms and 2 Phantasmal Image could work. The idea being that you now have 8 cards in the form of 4 captains, 2 drifts and 2 images, and if you draw any two of them (except both images) you have a line to getting hexproof over your entire board, either by playing the cards out or by transmuting for a captain first. The only card that's pretty dead on its own is image, so I'd keep it to 2. Transmuting is sorcery speed and pretty slow, so I don't know how smooth this would play.
Nah, I don't think it's worth running 2 copies of a card as mediocre as Drift of Phantasms at all. Also, why would you be using Phantasmal Image copying a Rattlechains ability to give ITSELF hexproof? You'd want to be bringing it in response to a different creature getting targeted and saving that one.
My personal issue with Phantasmal Image is that it can only serve that kind of reactive role in the deck if you have an Aether Vial out, which means that you deck hinges pretty heavily on a card that I think is kinda mediocre when you're wanting to get it to 3 most of the time, and you don't have a ton of creatures in the first place.
Using Phantasmal Image to copy Rattlechains and give itself hexproof (or flashing in Rattlechains to give it hexproof) would kill the Image due to a targeted ability...
I... I realize this. What I said was WHY would you be playing a Phantasmal Image, copying Rattlechains, and targeting itself? It doesn't make sense for a number of different reasons (one being that you should really be using the hexproof to protect other creatures, another being well... exactly that. If you have it target itself, it dies. Why do that?) And no one said anything about flashing in a Rattlechains to give a Phantasmal Image hexproof, that was already pretty obvious...
Why don't you run Phantasmal Image anymore? In a build with Aether Vial it is much stronger than Kira. Is there just not enough to copy?
I guess Phantasmal Image works best in a creature heavy shell, though obviously in the list above, copying a captain to immediately protect your entire board is awesome. If you don't draw a captain though, I can't see many great plays available; you really want the image to have hexproof. If Geist weren't legendary there'd probably be enough decent targets (I'm pretty sure if image copies Rattlechains and tries to give itself hexproof until EoT, the image just dies immediately?)
Maybe dropping the Kiras and run 2 Drift of Phantasms and 2 Phantasmal Image could work. The idea being that you now have 8 cards in the form of 4 captains, 2 drifts and 2 images, and if you draw any two of them (except both images) you have a line to getting hexproof over your entire board, either by playing the cards out or by transmuting for a captain first. The only card that's pretty dead on its own is image, so I'd keep it to 2. Transmuting is sorcery speed and pretty slow, so I don't know how smooth this would play.
Nah, I don't think it's worth running 2 copies of a card as mediocre as Drift of Phantasms at all. Also, why would you be using Phantasmal Image copying a Rattlechains ability to give ITSELF hexproof? You'd want to be bringing it in response to a different creature getting targeted and saving that one.
My personal issue with Phantasmal Image is that it can only serve that kind of reactive role in the deck if you have an Aether Vial out, which means that you deck hinges pretty heavily on a card that I think is kinda mediocre when you're wanting to get it to 3 most of the time, and you don't have a ton of creatures in the first place.
Using Phantasmal Image to copy Rattlechains and give itself hexproof (or flashing in Rattlechains to give it hexproof) would kill the Image due to a targeted ability...
I... I realize this. What I said was WHY would you be playing a Phantasmal Image, copying Rattlechains, and targeting itself? It doesn't make sense for a number of different reasons (one being that you should really be using the hexproof to protect other creatures, another being well... exactly that. If you have it target itself, it dies. Why do that?) And no one said anything about flashing in a Rattlechains to give a Phantasmal Image hexproof, that was already pretty obvious...
You play image to copy Captain so the entire team becomes Hexproof and you just doubled your lord count.
I guess Phantasmal Image works best in a creature heavy shell, though obviously in the list above, copying a captain to immediately protect your entire board is awesome. If you don't draw a captain though, I can't see many great plays available; you really want the image to have hexproof. If Geist weren't legendary there'd probably be enough decent targets (I'm pretty sure if image copies Rattlechains and tries to give itself hexproof until EoT, the image just dies immediately?)
Maybe dropping the Kiras and run 2 Drift of Phantasms and 2 Phantasmal Image could work. The idea being that you now have 8 cards in the form of 4 captains, 2 drifts and 2 images, and if you draw any two of them (except both images) you have a line to getting hexproof over your entire board, either by playing the cards out or by transmuting for a captain first. The only card that's pretty dead on its own is image, so I'd keep it to 2. Transmuting is sorcery speed and pretty slow, so I don't know how smooth this would play.
Nah, I don't think it's worth running 2 copies of a card as mediocre as Drift of Phantasms at all. Also, why would you be using Phantasmal Image copying a Rattlechains ability to give ITSELF hexproof? You'd want to be bringing it in response to a different creature getting targeted and saving that one.
My personal issue with Phantasmal Image is that it can only serve that kind of reactive role in the deck if you have an Aether Vial out, which means that you deck hinges pretty heavily on a card that I think is kinda mediocre when you're wanting to get it to 3 most of the time, and you don't have a ton of creatures in the first place.
Using Phantasmal Image to copy Rattlechains and give itself hexproof (or flashing in Rattlechains to give it hexproof) would kill the Image due to a targeted ability...
I... I realize this. What I said was WHY would you be playing a Phantasmal Image, copying Rattlechains, and targeting itself? It doesn't make sense for a number of different reasons (one being that you should really be using the hexproof to protect other creatures, another being well... exactly that. If you have it target itself, it dies. Why do that?) And no one said anything about flashing in a Rattlechains to give a Phantasmal Image hexproof, that was already pretty obvious...
You play image to copy Captain so the entire team becomes Hexproof and you just doubled your lord count.
Also gets the first Captain (and the second, and all your critters) outside of Kozilek's Return range, which Rattlechains can't do anything about.
Have you guys tried Godhead of Awe? Play the weenie game and with some anthem effects as well as +1/+1 counters from Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, you can get your guys strong and their guys weaken.
Since they are a bit of a nonbo, it seems like as good a route to take as any. I had trouble getting my Tallowisp version to work as smoothly as I wanted (well, at least on a consistent basis), but the new Spirit and Spirit-related cards make me hopeful that I can get a version going that's stronger. Even without Aether Vial, Rattlechains can provide the opportunity to goof around a bit more with counterspells, particularly Disrupting Shoal which jives nicely with Tallowisp.
Black is certainly possible. Green seems less worth it, to me, as it requires a very serious mana commitment and I'm not sure the payoff is there.
I toyed around with all the black cards you mentioned. Even tried to combo Cauldron Haze with Horobi, Death's Wail for all the death and destruction. Like many synergistic decks, though, having too many pieces that require other pieces to be good (or even playable, because Horobi can really screw you up if the entire team doesn't have hexproof...) can lead to some pretty inconsistent and frustrating results.
Lingering Souls is good in just about any deck that can play it, though, and definitely warrants additional consideration, even if you just have a tiny black Splash to flash it back.
I still think we need the next set to have more spirit options to make spirit tribal truly good. Right now it's semi-viable, but seems like a partially completed fairies tribal. Aether vial + Rattlechains gives the deck the ability to play things on the opponents turn, Promise of Bunrei + Kira can give some protection against targeted removal. You'll still want at least 1-2 spellskite with the captain on board...
My big question is why does everything need to be a spirit in U/W spirits? Does the tribe do something that you want when it is exclusive or are we just doing this to make a flavor of the month? If it's the later, you can still achieve that flavor without having to cripple or limit choices. Dredgevine, as an example, can be a zombie deck by virtue of just making use of a lot of zombie creatures and the fact creatures basically return from the dead on trigger.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'd consider removing the Hauntings for 2 more black sources. You have a lot of three drops, and I find that 20 lands is often only enough for two drops.
I still think we need the next set to have more spirit options to make spirit tribal truly good. Right now it's semi-viable, but seems like a partially completed fairies tribal. Aether vial + Rattlechains gives the deck the ability to play things on the opponents turn, Promise of Bunrei + Kira can give some protection against targeted removal. You'll still want at least 1-2 spellskite with the captain on board...
My big question is why does everything need to be a spirit in U/W spirits? Does the tribe do something that you want when it is exclusive or are we just doing this to make a flavor of the month? If it's the later, you can still achieve that flavor without having to cripple or limit choices. Dredgevine, as an example, can be a zombie deck by virtue of just making use of a lot of zombie creatures and the fact creatures basically return from the dead on trigger.
Well, if you play a non-spirit, they lose the buffs from the captain and the protection from Rattlechains, along with the ability from Tallowisp. I can see Snapcaster Mage slipping in, and probably Spellskite, but that feels more like a sideboard card than anything. Maybe Delver of Secrets, akin to Jon Finkel's standard deck way back?
You're right though, not everything needs to be a spirit, especially since Moorland Haunt makes all your creatures fit in flavorfully anyways.
Moorland haunt has been an all star favorite of mine both when it was in standard and in my casual decks. It's not something you really build around having, but as a utility land that lets creatures effectively replace themselves upon death it's great.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My list splashes black for LS since I feel it's too good to leave out. This is sort of a tempo control build, almost a BW tokens that trades the discard suite for spirit synergies, counters, and better sweepers. My testing has found Topplegeist to be pretty meh. Rattlechains is the MVP of the deck, once you have 1U untapped for the rest of the game your opponent never knows if you are holding up PTE, a counter, rattlechains, or a bluff. Flashing in Geist EOT and Drogskol Captain as a combat/antiremoval trick is even better. I wasn't sure about Drogskol Captain but post LS or Spectral Procession it can flash in for lethal and makes the opponent sweat during combat. This has been good vs combo and midrange but struggles against fast aggro like infect. Any feedback, suggestions, or questions are helpful.
Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
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If you're going to go the tempo route, why would you drop Aether Vial? The fact that it lets you cast your creatures for basically no cost at instant speed is half the reason that Merfolk is successful, since it allows to leave up counter mana and still get a threat in play if nothing of note happens. I know that Rattlechains gets you the flash anyway, which is nice, but getting two EOT creatures, or an EOT creature and a sell is always gonna be better than just a single action. Plus, it's a Kolaghan's Command magnet, which can keep Drogskol safer later on.
It feels like Aether Vial is underwhelming in our deck because of our lack of 1-2 drops. It'll most likely sit there for a few turns doing nothing.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Nah, I don't think it's worth running 2 copies of a card as mediocre as Drift of Phantasms at all. Also, why would you be using Phantasmal Image copying a Rattlechains ability to give ITSELF hexproof? You'd want to be bringing it in response to a different creature getting targeted and saving that one.
My personal issue with Phantasmal Image is that it can only serve that kind of reactive role in the deck if you have an Aether Vial out, which means that you deck hinges pretty heavily on a card that I think is kinda mediocre when you're wanting to get it to 3 most of the time, and you don't have a ton of creatures in the first place.
Using Phantasmal Image to copy Rattlechains and give itself hexproof (or flashing in Rattlechains to give it hexproof) would kill the Image due to a targeted ability...
I... I realize this. What I said was WHY would you be playing a Phantasmal Image, copying Rattlechains, and targeting itself? It doesn't make sense for a number of different reasons (one being that you should really be using the hexproof to protect other creatures, another being well... exactly that. If you have it target itself, it dies. Why do that?) And no one said anything about flashing in a Rattlechains to give a Phantasmal Image hexproof, that was already pretty obvious...
You play image to copy Captain so the entire team becomes Hexproof and you just doubled your lord count.
Also gets the first Captain (and the second, and all your critters) outside of Kozilek's Return range, which Rattlechains can't do anything about.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Do you think it would be worth it to go tri-color? Black for Lingering Souls and Horobi, Death's Wail (maybe Devouring Greed)? Green for Strangleroot Geist, Chameleon Colossus, and the green auras?
Then again, the mana base would be pretty rocky, and the deck might get inconsistent.
I toyed around with all the black cards you mentioned. Even tried to combo Cauldron Haze with Horobi, Death's Wail for all the death and destruction. Like many synergistic decks, though, having too many pieces that require other pieces to be good (or even playable, because Horobi can really screw you up if the entire team doesn't have hexproof...) can lead to some pretty inconsistent and frustrating results.
Lingering Souls is good in just about any deck that can play it, though, and definitely warrants additional consideration, even if you just have a tiny black Splash to flash it back.
4x Drogskol Captain
4x Figure of Destiny
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2x Phantasmal Image
4x Rattlechains
Instant (10)
2x Midnight Haunting
4x Path to Exile
4x Vapor Snag
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
Enchantment (4)
2x Intangible Virtue
2x Promise of Bunrei
Land (20)
4x Flooded Strand
1x Godless Shrine
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
3x Mutavault
2x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
4x Seachrome Coast
I'm not sure if I have enough Black for Lingering Souls and if 20 lands are sufficient here.
I considered including Eidolon of Countless Battles but wasn't sure what to replace
(maybe Promise of Bunrei or Intangible Virtue/Midnight Haunting) and if it's even worth it.
My big question is why does everything need to be a spirit in U/W spirits? Does the tribe do something that you want when it is exclusive or are we just doing this to make a flavor of the month? If it's the later, you can still achieve that flavor without having to cripple or limit choices. Dredgevine, as an example, can be a zombie deck by virtue of just making use of a lot of zombie creatures and the fact creatures basically return from the dead on trigger.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'd consider removing the Hauntings for 2 more black sources. You have a lot of three drops, and I find that 20 lands is often only enough for two drops.
Well, if you play a non-spirit, they lose the buffs from the captain and the protection from Rattlechains, along with the ability from Tallowisp. I can see Snapcaster Mage slipping in, and probably Spellskite, but that feels more like a sideboard card than anything. Maybe Delver of Secrets, akin to Jon Finkel's standard deck way back?
You're right though, not everything needs to be a spirit, especially since Moorland Haunt makes all your creatures fit in flavorfully anyways.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
4x Drogskol Captain
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Rattlechains
Sorcery (11)
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Supreme Verdict
Instant (12)
1x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
3x Mana Leak
1x Detention Sphere
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands (24)
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Godless Shrine
1x Glacial Fortress
3x Isolated Chapel
2x Moorland Haunt
1x Vault of the Archangel
5x Plains
5x Island
My list splashes black for LS since I feel it's too good to leave out. This is sort of a tempo control build, almost a BW tokens that trades the discard suite for spirit synergies, counters, and better sweepers. My testing has found Topplegeist to be pretty meh. Rattlechains is the MVP of the deck, once you have 1U untapped for the rest of the game your opponent never knows if you are holding up PTE, a counter, rattlechains, or a bluff. Flashing in Geist EOT and Drogskol Captain as a combat/antiremoval trick is even better. I wasn't sure about Drogskol Captain but post LS or Spectral Procession it can flash in for lethal and makes the opponent sweat during combat. This has been good vs combo and midrange but struggles against fast aggro like infect. Any feedback, suggestions, or questions are helpful.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR