here was my take on the Tallowisp/Geist style I ran for a few weeks after months of tinkering. It worked well. Beat Death and Taxes, Burn, and some other Tier 2 decks. Couldn't do much against Infect though. That said, I think if I changed the sideboard up it could take it.
Here i think is the main problem of the arquetype. You cant be fast enough like a aggro deck, you cant control good enough as a UWR, and your tokens are worse than the traditional BW tokens list. I think we need better early drops 1-2 CMC, or a spirit that makes viable the lockdown that i posted here or the enchantment version(for me i worse GW bogle)
that is why my list evolved over time to have more creature control and more consistent lifelink.
In other words I shifted the curve and the timing slightly slower to make it play more like mid-range. It was mostly able to turn the board around against RDW or zoo type builds. Even to slightly positive. Affinity was a problem game 1, but the sideboard was so good against affinity. Infect was a bad match-up.
And mid-range decks weren't necessarily a bad match-up because they sometimes had limited means for dealing with the combo. Liliana could shut it down but there was frequently a lot of dead cards in their hand. Bolts didn't do jack.
hello everyone, I play magic about 4 yrs and since i began i tried to make that deck (UW, esper spirits) viable. I excited about SOI, but i think thats nothing good enough besides rattlechain and maybe topplegeist. I start think in a more lockdown version using eidolon of rethoric and hokori, using drogskol and rattlechain to protect the lock. What do you think about that? Maybe a splash to black for more removal and lingering is viable?
Here i think is the main problem of the arquetype. You cant be fast enough like a aggro deck, you cant control good enough as a UWR, and your tokens are worse than the traditional BW tokens list. I think we need better early drops 1-2 CMC, or a spirit that makes viable the lockdown that i posted here or the enchantment version(for me i worse GW bogle)
Hokori, Dust Drinker with flash is actually insane. I don't know of any decks that could fight that off properly (especially if Drogskol Captain is protecting it). Meanwhile we continue to Aether Vial and cast our cheap spirits to flying beats. Plus, Hokori basically turns bounce into removal, so we don't even have to go into black. And I don't know how well the Hokori plan meshes with Geist of Saint Traft, but it seems like a pretty hard spot to lose from if you get both in play. Personally, if I had to put up a list, I'd probably go with what I have below as a test run. I don't know if it would be enough turn on Topplegeist's delirium, and maybe a more controlling version with Remands might be better, but I like the idea of a semi-lock with tokens/Geist swinging underneath.
I'm tempted to agree that if we pursue enchantments as our main game-plan, it effectively just becomes a slower Bogles deck. That eing said, just how much worse a spirit-Bogle deck might be isn't really clear, since we have tribal/tokens backup where Bogles has nothing.
hello everyone, I play magic about 4 yrs and since i began i tried to make that deck (UW, esper spirits) viable. I excited about SOI, but i think thats nothing good enough besides rattlechain and maybe topplegeist. I start think in a more lockdown version using eidolon of rethoric and hokori, using drogskol and rattlechain to protect the lock. What do you think about that? Maybe a splash to black for more removal and lingering is viable?
Here i think is the main problem of the arquetype. You cant be fast enough like a aggro deck, you cant control good enough as a UWR, and your tokens are worse than the traditional BW tokens list. I think we need better early drops 1-2 CMC, or a spirit that makes viable the lockdown that i posted here or the enchantment version(for me i worse GW bogle)
Hokori, Dust Drinker with flash is actually insane. I don't know of any decks that could fight that off properly (especially if Drogskol Captain is protecting it). Meanwhile we continue to Aether Vial and cast our cheap spirits to flying beats. Plus, Hokori basically turns bounce into removal, so we don't even have to go into black. And I don't know how well the Hokori plan meshes with Geist of Saint Traft, but it seems like a pretty hard spot to lose from if you get both in play. Personally, if I had to put up a list, I'd probably go with what I have below as a test run. I don't know if it would be enough turn on Topplegeist's delirium, and maybe a more controlling version with Remands might be better, but I like the idea of a semi-lock with tokens/Geist swinging underneath.
I'm tempted to agree that if we pursue enchantments as our main game-plan, it effectively just becomes a slower Bogles deck. That eing said, just how much worse a spirit-Bogle deck might be isn't really clear, since we have tribal/tokens backup where Bogles has nothing.
I actually really like this idea. You essentially have a bunch of threats and use Rattlechains or vial/Drogskol to protect a threat and win from there. if you wanted to go the complete prison route (or more towards it ) you could add things like Orb of Dreams which forces lands into play tapped as well.
Agree that Lingering Souls is a more powerful direction than Tallowisp. Do not necessarily think Hokori is worth the investment. It dies to almost everything.
Hexproof of course makes it more reliable. So maybe it's worth it. But 3 seems like a lot by any standard.
Then there's Eidolon of Countless Battles. Why are you playing this card, again?
I'm not quite getting how Hokori, Dust Drinker has a particularly good synergy with Flash? I can see how having it out and Æther Vial gives us a massive advantage, and not having lands untap means bouncing is pseudo-removal, but what's with the Flash part?
I'm not quite getting how Hokori, Dust Drinker has a particularly good synergy with Flash? I can see how having it out and Æther Vial gives us a massive advantage, and not having lands untap means bouncing is pseudo-removal, but what's with the Flash part?
Against the majority of decks, nothing. But any decks that play reactively will wait until your EOT to cast things in order to untap right away, or will try to kill Hokori when you're tapped out. By giving Hokori flash, you can have a "gotcha" moment against reactive decks, and against kill spells, you cast Hokori EOT and immediately follow up with Captain or Rattlechains after your untap step (since nobody gets priority in between).
Flash doesn't change what Hokori does, but it changes when you want to play it on order to maximize the effect and reduce it's fragility.
Weight of Conscience is a decent aura to tutor up with Tallowisp to remove creatures.
Mistveil Plains lets you recycle enchantments should you want to go for a grindy build (and can be fetched).
Also if you're splashing black, Nameless Inversion triggers Tallowisp, and it's tribal portion can help turn on Delirium. You also get access to black enchantments.
I'm having a hard time picturing when I'd absolutely want to use Hokori on my opponent's turn. And therefore I'm having a hard time figuring out why he's insane with flash (or being vialed in, I suppose). Not saying I don't like the card. I am intrigued. Just not sure how he gets noticeably better with Rattlechains, I guess.
I get that you can use it on your opponent's end step after he's tapped all his mana. But is that really so different from just playing it during your main? In terms of the overall effect it has on your opponent? In a draw-go style deck it makes some sort of sense, I suppose?
*Edit* sorry, somehow I missed the entire second page for this thread and didn't realize that it had already been discussed.
I'm having a hard time picturing when I'd absolutely want to use Hokori on my opponent's turn. And therefore I'm having a hard time figuring out why he's insane with flash (or being vialed in, I suppose). Not saying I don't like the card. I am intrigued. Just not sure how he gets noticeably better with Rattlechains, I guess.
I get that you can use it on your opponent's end step after he's tapped all his mana. But is that really so different from just playing it during your main? In terms of the overall effect it has on your opponent? In a draw-go style deck it makes some sort of sense, I suppose?
*Edit* sorry, somehow I missed the entire second page for this thread and didn't realize that it had already been discussed.
Really the biggest difference is that let's you have flexibility in when you play it. By letting you flash it in EOT, you allow yourself the window of opportunity that comes with getting a protective spirit into play via Vial/casting since depending on when cast it, you can retain priority in between Hikori coming into play and your follow up. It'll never be Mistbind Clique, but it has its own benefits since it has a continuous effect (which we can hopefully play under while protecting it).
Agree that Lingering Souls is a more powerful direction than Tallowisp. Do not necessarily think Hokori is worth the investment. It dies to almost everything.
Hexproof of course makes it more reliable. So maybe it's worth it. But 3 seems like a lot by any standard.
Then there's Eidolon of Countless Battles. Why are you playing this card, again?
I brought up Eidolon of Countless Battles as a Spirit that could be used if decks go a little wide with Souls Tokens. He'd also give you another way to protect Geist from a block since Geist would be a 4/4 with just Eidolon bestowed on him and 5/5 when geist swings. When Geist does die or if you hardcast/vial Eidolon in, he can still be a fairly large dude. I also brought him up when we were discussing Topplegeist and he enables delirium easily being a enchantment creature. Add in a fetch and a Lingering souls and you are at 4 card types.
Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
The idea of running 2 Favorable Winds to have a total of 6 anthem effects is interesting, although it does seem like it limits what you can put into the deck a bit (anafenza, figure of destiny, geist of saint traft, as well as some other cards that have been being thrown around on this thread don't really benefit well enough from Winds. Anafenza doesn't benefit from it at all, figure doesn't get it until you've sunk a ton of mana into him at which point you're probably winning anyway, and geist technically gets a bonus, it's just that the wrong body gets it). I suppose that if you're fine with giving up those kinds of cards, though, it's probably quite good. Reminds me a bit of my old casual spirits deck where, between all of the different cards that I had in the deck, I had the ability to get my spirits to something like +13/+13 at max.
I'm also not sure about the heavy use of reactive instants like Mana Leak when the rest of the deck feels like a tap out deck. On the other hand, if you can consistently hit Rattlechains, it lets your entire suite of creatures get cast reactively, which ends up making them play well together. I guess the real question is how consistently can you hit that?
I will say that between the Rattlechains, Drogskol Captains, and Kiras, the deck looks INSANELY resilient to targeted removal. Literally 1 out of every 6 cards you draw is going to give SOMETHING hexproof or counter the spell targeting it. Plus, the Lingering souls helps you come back from board wipes pretty decently, and the counter spells let you avoid them in the first place.
All in all, seems like an interestingly unique take on spirits. Have you had a chance to play with the deck at all yet? How does it feel?
EDIT: Also, Spell Snare seems pretty limited in its uses (even more so than Dispel, which is already pretty limited). Since this is a pretty tempo-y deck, have you considered Remand? The card draw is super useful, and if you're countering an attempt to spot kill one of your spirits, you might be able to get another hexproofer down before they can recast the spell anyway. This would also help against situations where, for example, you opponent casts a kill spell on one of your creatures, you flash in a rattlechains targeting it with hexproof, and they drop ANOTHER kill spell on it while chains is on the stack.
The idea of running 2 Favorable Winds to have a total of 6 anthem effects is interesting, although it does seem like it limits what you can put into the deck a bit (anafenza, figure of destiny, geist of saint traft, as well as some other cards that have been being thrown around on this thread don't really benefit well enough from Winds. Anafenza doesn't benefit from it at all, figure doesn't get it until you've sunk a ton of mana into him at which point you're probably winning anyway, and geist technically gets a bonus, it's just that the wrong body gets it). I suppose that if you're fine with giving up those kinds of cards, though, it's probably quite good. Reminds me a bit of my old casual spirits deck where, between all of the different cards that I had in the deck, I had the ability to get my spirits to something like +13/+13 at max.
I'm also not sure about the heavy use of reactive instants like Mana Leak when the rest of the deck feels like a tap out deck. On the other hand, if you can consistently hit Rattlechains, it lets your entire suite of creatures get cast reactively, which ends up making them play well together. I guess the real question is how consistently can you hit that?
I will say that between the Rattlechains, Drogskol Captains, and Kiras, the deck looks INSANELY resilient to targeted removal. Literally 1 out of every 6 cards you draw is going to give SOMETHING hexproof or counter the spell targeting it. Plus, the Lingering souls helps you come back from board wipes pretty decently, and the counter spells let you avoid them in the first place.
All in all, seems like an interestingly unique take on spirits. Have you had a chance to play with the deck at all yet? How does it feel?
EDIT: Also, Spell Snare seems pretty limited in its uses (even more so than Dispel, which is already pretty limited). Since this is a pretty tempo-y deck, have you considered Remand? The card draw is super useful, and if you're countering an attempt to spot kill one of your spirits, you might be able to get another hexproofer down before they can recast the spell anyway. This would also help against situations where, for example, you opponent casts a kill spell on one of your creatures, you flash in a rattlechains targeting it with hexproof, and they drop ANOTHER kill spell on it while chains is on the stack.
I haven't got my hands on most of the cards in my deck, I just really liked the idea and wanted to see what the community thinks.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
It seems like an interesting take on the idea. You might want to drop some man lands into the deck too. Mutavault as a 3/3 hexproof is definitely super nice. Also/instead, maybe a copy of Vault of the Archangel and a copy of Moorland Haunt or two? Both of those cards would help this deck be super grindy, and because it looks like you will almost always have some way of providing hexproof to a creature (even if it's just for a turn), you basically stop your opponent from being able to attack or block favorably, ever.
Like the lists, but all of them fall in having a good 2-drop, or a more agressive 1-drop, so you call the deck "aggro" when it cannot drop a lot of creatures like affinity, either with aether vial. I suggested control because we cant aggro well, and gonna be stopped by control lists and more aggro decks(infect-burn)
Like the lists, but all of them fall in having a good 2-drop, or a more agressive 1-drop, so you call the deck "aggro" when it cannot drop a lot of creatures like affinity, either with aether vial. I suggested control because we cant aggro well, and gonna be stopped by control lists and more aggro decks(infect-burn)
I think that rather than straight aggro or straight control, the right answer is probably to go with a tempo-y midrange build. I think that CelticWombat is probably on the right track with the large number of ways of protecting his creatures from spot removal and then some lockdown in the mid/late game. There are a few changes I would probably make to it, including swapping some stuff out for a few more creatures, but the general idea of having tempo-y permission seems like a good one, particularly vs. removal spells. The biggest benefit to running spirits as a tribe is definitely the very large amount of evasive power that you'll have from doing so.
I'm hoping we see one or two more low cost, good spirits in SOI, and a few in EMN as well.
Personally I think your better off playing bw tokens splashing blue for some.of the spirit cards and cuttING raise the alarms and some of the anthems.
I think the real issue here though is the deck is suffering from what fairies does in modern. That there just isn't enough substance in the cards you gotta play to make the deck work.
If you play vial I think youre forced into a creature heavy shell and don't have enough to protect your board from sweepers and just overall get out attritioned by b/g/x decks ir every uwr comes back they'll just steam roll you all day. Affinty and zoo are probably your best match ups.
Overall I think if you do play it it's almost mandatory to play li Gering souls. That card is to good not to play. I think thoughtseize and iok are good cards to look into as well as more removal besides path. I think the best bet is to try a midrange shell with rattle chains, captain, snaps.
Also dunno if anyone remembers and if eldrazi gets the ban the format might slow enough for him.but obezedat, ghost council and his preseason are both spirits and tesya (the 3 mana one) benefits fro. This sort of build.
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Here i think is the main problem of the arquetype. You cant be fast enough like a aggro deck, you cant control good enough as a UWR, and your tokens are worse than the traditional BW tokens list. I think we need better early drops 1-2 CMC, or a spirit that makes viable the lockdown that i posted here or the enchantment version(for me i worse GW bogle)
that is why my list evolved over time to have more creature control and more consistent lifelink.
In other words I shifted the curve and the timing slightly slower to make it play more like mid-range. It was mostly able to turn the board around against RDW or zoo type builds. Even to slightly positive. Affinity was a problem game 1, but the sideboard was so good against affinity. Infect was a bad match-up.
And mid-range decks weren't necessarily a bad match-up because they sometimes had limited means for dealing with the combo. Liliana could shut it down but there was frequently a lot of dead cards in their hand. Bolts didn't do jack.
Hokori, Dust Drinker with flash is actually insane. I don't know of any decks that could fight that off properly (especially if Drogskol Captain is protecting it). Meanwhile we continue to Aether Vial and cast our cheap spirits to flying beats. Plus, Hokori basically turns bounce into removal, so we don't even have to go into black. And I don't know how well the Hokori plan meshes with Geist of Saint Traft, but it seems like a pretty hard spot to lose from if you get both in play. Personally, if I had to put up a list, I'd probably go with what I have below as a test run. I don't know if it would be enough turn on Topplegeist's delirium, and maybe a more controlling version with Remands might be better, but I like the idea of a semi-lock with tokens/Geist swinging underneath.
3 Topplegeist
4 Rattlechains
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Eidolon of Countless Battles
4 Drogskol Captain
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Aether Vial
3 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
3 Azorius Charm
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Moorland Haunt
3 Plains
2 Island
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Survival Cache
3 Rest in Peace
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Drowned Rusalka
2 Repeal
I actually really like this idea. You essentially have a bunch of threats and use Rattlechains or vial/Drogskol to protect a threat and win from there. if you wanted to go the complete prison route (or more towards it ) you could add things like Orb of Dreams which forces lands into play tapped as well.
Hexproof of course makes it more reliable. So maybe it's worth it. But 3 seems like a lot by any standard.
Then there's Eidolon of Countless Battles. Why are you playing this card, again?
I think the deck should be:
4 Topplegeist
4 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Lingering Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
2 Moorland Haunt
4 Kataki, War's Wage
Against the majority of decks, nothing. But any decks that play reactively will wait until your EOT to cast things in order to untap right away, or will try to kill Hokori when you're tapped out. By giving Hokori flash, you can have a "gotcha" moment against reactive decks, and against kill spells, you cast Hokori EOT and immediately follow up with Captain or Rattlechains after your untap step (since nobody gets priority in between).
Flash doesn't change what Hokori does, but it changes when you want to play it on order to maximize the effect and reduce it's fragility.
Mistveil Plains lets you recycle enchantments should you want to go for a grindy build (and can be fetched).
Also if you're splashing black, Nameless Inversion triggers Tallowisp, and it's tribal portion can help turn on Delirium. You also get access to black enchantments.
I'm having a hard time picturing when I'd absolutely want to use Hokori on my opponent's turn. And therefore I'm having a hard time figuring out why he's insane with flash (or being vialed in, I suppose). Not saying I don't like the card. I am intrigued. Just not sure how he gets noticeably better with Rattlechains, I guess.
I get that you can use it on your opponent's end step after he's tapped all his mana. But is that really so different from just playing it during your main? In terms of the overall effect it has on your opponent? In a draw-go style deck it makes some sort of sense, I suppose?
*Edit* sorry, somehow I missed the entire second page for this thread and didn't realize that it had already been discussed.
Really the biggest difference is that let's you have flexibility in when you play it. By letting you flash it in EOT, you allow yourself the window of opportunity that comes with getting a protective spirit into play via Vial/casting since depending on when cast it, you can retain priority in between Hikori coming into play and your follow up. It'll never be Mistbind Clique, but it has its own benefits since it has a continuous effect (which we can hopefully play under while protecting it).
I brought up Eidolon of Countless Battles as a Spirit that could be used if decks go a little wide with Souls Tokens. He'd also give you another way to protect Geist from a block since Geist would be a 4/4 with just Eidolon bestowed on him and 5/5 when geist swings. When Geist does die or if you hardcast/vial Eidolon in, he can still be a fairly large dude. I also brought him up when we were discussing Topplegeist and he enables delirium easily being a enchantment creature. Add in a fetch and a Lingering souls and you are at 4 card types.
4 Rattlechains
4 Drogskol Captain
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4 Topplegeist
Instants:
3 Mana Leak
2 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
2 Dismember
2 Detention Sphere
2 Favorable Winds
Sorceries:
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Watery Grave
2 Godless Shrine
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Swamp
Aggro Control Spirits. What do you think?
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
The idea of running 2 Favorable Winds to have a total of 6 anthem effects is interesting, although it does seem like it limits what you can put into the deck a bit (anafenza, figure of destiny, geist of saint traft, as well as some other cards that have been being thrown around on this thread don't really benefit well enough from Winds. Anafenza doesn't benefit from it at all, figure doesn't get it until you've sunk a ton of mana into him at which point you're probably winning anyway, and geist technically gets a bonus, it's just that the wrong body gets it). I suppose that if you're fine with giving up those kinds of cards, though, it's probably quite good. Reminds me a bit of my old casual spirits deck where, between all of the different cards that I had in the deck, I had the ability to get my spirits to something like +13/+13 at max.
I'm also not sure about the heavy use of reactive instants like Mana Leak when the rest of the deck feels like a tap out deck. On the other hand, if you can consistently hit Rattlechains, it lets your entire suite of creatures get cast reactively, which ends up making them play well together. I guess the real question is how consistently can you hit that?
I will say that between the Rattlechains, Drogskol Captains, and Kiras, the deck looks INSANELY resilient to targeted removal. Literally 1 out of every 6 cards you draw is going to give SOMETHING hexproof or counter the spell targeting it. Plus, the Lingering souls helps you come back from board wipes pretty decently, and the counter spells let you avoid them in the first place.
All in all, seems like an interestingly unique take on spirits. Have you had a chance to play with the deck at all yet? How does it feel?
EDIT: Also, Spell Snare seems pretty limited in its uses (even more so than Dispel, which is already pretty limited). Since this is a pretty tempo-y deck, have you considered Remand? The card draw is super useful, and if you're countering an attempt to spot kill one of your spirits, you might be able to get another hexproofer down before they can recast the spell anyway. This would also help against situations where, for example, you opponent casts a kill spell on one of your creatures, you flash in a rattlechains targeting it with hexproof, and they drop ANOTHER kill spell on it while chains is on the stack.
I haven't got my hands on most of the cards in my deck, I just really liked the idea and wanted to see what the community thinks.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
I think that rather than straight aggro or straight control, the right answer is probably to go with a tempo-y midrange build. I think that CelticWombat is probably on the right track with the large number of ways of protecting his creatures from spot removal and then some lockdown in the mid/late game. There are a few changes I would probably make to it, including swapping some stuff out for a few more creatures, but the general idea of having tempo-y permission seems like a good one, particularly vs. removal spells. The biggest benefit to running spirits as a tribe is definitely the very large amount of evasive power that you'll have from doing so.
I'm hoping we see one or two more low cost, good spirits in SOI, and a few in EMN as well.
I think the real issue here though is the deck is suffering from what fairies does in modern. That there just isn't enough substance in the cards you gotta play to make the deck work.
If you play vial I think youre forced into a creature heavy shell and don't have enough to protect your board from sweepers and just overall get out attritioned by b/g/x decks ir every uwr comes back they'll just steam roll you all day. Affinty and zoo are probably your best match ups.
Overall I think if you do play it it's almost mandatory to play li Gering souls. That card is to good not to play. I think thoughtseize and iok are good cards to look into as well as more removal besides path. I think the best bet is to try a midrange shell with rattle chains, captain, snaps.
Also dunno if anyone remembers and if eldrazi gets the ban the format might slow enough for him.but obezedat, ghost council and his preseason are both spirits and tesya (the 3 mana one) benefits fro. This sort of build.