It needs too much setup (and 2 blue mana-sources) in my opinion if it isn't vialed in so it doesn't seem reliable enough to me.
And I don't really have a discard outlet (I don't have Liliana).
In the Version with Vial and Amalgam, why don't you play a few Skaab Ruinator?
With Lili or another discard outlet, you get it into your graveyard. You can even use Relentless Dead to get him out of the yard.
He triggers Amalgam and with vial you can "play" him from your hand, without eating your other zombies.
Because it exiles the creatures you want to be reanimating.
Would Diregraf Colossus be a better option for the vial build than Cemetery Reaper (probably the weakest of the 4 zombie lords).
That depends, do you need a card that let's you win more when you're drawing well, and has a greedy interaction with gravecrawler? Or would you rather have a lord that helps when you're behind, that depopulates your graveyard of stuff you want to reanimate?
Diregraf Colossus doesn't trigger of creatures EtB but only on cast so not great with Vial. Cemetery Reaper can exile creatures from opponent's GY as well if necessary, though it would rarely be useful anyway at 3 mana+tap per activation.
Diregraf Colossus doesn't trigger of creatures EtB but only on cast so not great with Vial. Cemetery Reaper can exile creatures from opponent's GY as well if necessary, though it would rarely be useful anyway at 3 mana+tap per activation.
Basically I decided one amalgam, three restless dead, and one more Obliterator to the maindeck.
In the side, I added a second Drown in Sorrow.
So I played this weekend, ended up 4-1.
Thoughts: I only stuck Relentless Dead a few times, and I'm not sure I'm paying it right yet. It's up there with Obliterator in the "must kill" list and rarely survives long enough to do anything.
Amalgam might be a little better than I gave it credit for. I was worried that it didn't do enough alone (and it doesn't) but if they don't attack the graveyard it can get some work in.
Obliterator is a house. going back to 3 was a Good Decision.
Phantasmal Image might be on the chopping black. I think I sided them out every single game except against tron. I might want more in the side for a tron match-up.
How are you killing relentless dead to save it from path and eldrazi exiles?
I found I still needed a sac outlet to save him and keep him going because of all the hate.i found that as long as I had a way to sac it in response my opponent would lose card advantage trying to beat it to exile.
Zombies love dying.
I've actually been really liking Compelling Deterrence in the build I'm playing. In addition to being a tempo play that almost always makes them discard a card you can bounce your own creature in response to removal and discard an amalgam or rotting rats to the gy. And you can also bounce Tron's pw, which can be brutal if they have used up their other cards or you've been consistent w/ making them discard since it can potentially let you kill a karn for 2 mana. I know it looks kind of cute but I'd strongly recommend testing it for anyone who hasn't.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
What's everyone's list looking like these days? I've been curious as to see who has what. Is Dimir still the best solution? Are the new zombies just destroying? Seems like the deck is still a long way from being competitive.
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Modern: B 8Rack RX Goblins BG Elves (Attempting) UBW Mill G Stompy UB Tezzerator
Legacy: W Stax
This is my U/B build for now.. I'm focusing more on aggro than graveyard shenanigans, but definitely still keep the graveyard tricks in tact. It is Zombies after all.. Would definitely love some suggestions.
I've had nothing but heart break with the scriviner.
Ya he hasn't been all that exciting.. There is a trick to him though. I've been play testing the crap out of my build, and tweaked some numbers on my post. My curve tops at 3.. So it's pretty easy to just dump your hand in the first 3 turns, depending on your hand. I'm pretty sure the correct number to have of this guy is 3. Because if you draw him after you've dumped your hand, you can immediately start benefiting from him. After this tweak, it has been running pretty good.
My deck also caps at three, minus the obliterators. If you empty your hand you usually win, with no need for the scriviner. If you still have cards, it's because they're unplayable removal or a fist full of lands. Overextending is like my favorite tactic.
Well, in my experiences.. Dumping your hand definitely puts you in the drivers seat, but not necessarily win.. With my build at least. The way I look at it is he is a tempo insurance policy. He's worked for me, being exactly that.. A tempo card. I like being able to have some sort of card draw outlet without having to make cuts. Like I said, I think 3 is the right number because there is usually one in my opening hand, or at least draw one right after I dump. Either way, i've been waiting forever for a 2 drop zombie lord, because he'd be the first to go. Merfolk gets all the love.
I'd be interested to hear about people's experiences with Relentless Dead. He just reminds me so much of Tenacious Dead who was just too mana intensive to be worth it. Granted, paying 4 to get him and your Messenger back is pretty boss but still, that's a lot of mana.
Cryptbreaker + Gravecrawler + Prize Amalgam seems like the nuts. On turn 3 you are talking about having like a 1/1, 2x 2/2s, a 2/1, and a 3/3? That's crazy especially since you can block with some of the zombies and then tap them to draw a card. It's card advantage because with Gravecrawler you are getting basically 2 zombies per card. Even more with you add Amalgam to the mix.
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I've been thinking about an Esper shell for some sweet zombie Synergies. I kind of stumbled into it while looking for a shell for Liliana, the last hope. I came to the conclusion (speculatively, as my copies haven't arrived yet) that she plays best with flash threats and low CMC ETB-effect creatures. This put me on Tidehollow Sculler and Snapcaster mage.
Here's a list (or a close list) of what I'll be trying this weekend.
The idea is to apply lots of early pressure with some disruption, while being resilient against removal, and having some late game power in the recursion with Lilly and the stronger creatures like Gisa/Angler.
I've also tried o squeeze a Thought Scour package in here with more Gurmag Anglers and maybe some Lingering Souls. A lot of directions to take this kind of deck.
Diregraf ghoul /grave crawler followed by a relentless dead is pretty hard to get rid of permanently by turn 3 unless you have exile effects. (I'm not even going into removal or discard stuff, just these 1 and 2 drops and their effects on some archetypes).
Zombies against burn is favorable if you have any sort of lifegain, because burning your zombies is wothless and it has to basically all go to the head instead of being used as removal.
A good opening with zombies can pressure ramp decks while establishing a hard to get rid of board presence.
Hatebears probably wouldn't like to see a horde of undying 2/2s.
1 relentless dead in the yard and one on the field with 3 mana = One useless removal for your opponent and one zombie going back to your hand from the yard.
Basically, relentless dead is the real deal as far as a zombie 2 drop goes and it has good 1 drops prior to it.
Additionally,
Obliterators without non damage removal are like instant board stalls for the opponent, and for a mono black/black splash blue or green it's still very easy to cast even at 4 black. Dipping half and half or tri color is bad, but dear god, if you don't have a heroes downfall or dismember or something...
Diregraf ghoul /grave crawler followed by a relentless dead is pretty hard to get rid of permanently by turn 3 unless you have exile effects. (I'm not even going into removal or discard stuff, just these 1 and 2 drops and their effects on some archetypes).
Zombies against burn is favorable if you have any sort of lifegain, because burning your zombies is wothless and it has to basically all go to the head instead of being used as removal.
A good opening with zombies can pressure ramp decks while establishing a hard to get rid of board presence.
Hatebears probably wouldn't like to see a horde of undying 2/2s.
1 relentless dead in the yard and one on the field with 3 mana = One useless removal for your opponent and one zombie going back to your hand from the yard.
Basically, relentless dead is the real deal as far as a zombie 2 drop goes and it has good 1 drops prior to it.
Additionally,
Obliterators without non damage removal are like instant board stalls for the opponent, and for a mono black/black splash blue or green it's still very easy to cast even at 4 black. Dipping half and half or tri color is bad, but dear god, if you don't have a heroes downfall or dismember or something...
I'm curious how it plays out I guess. How much mana do you leave open each turn? Does that stall out other plays? Can you/do you activate both abilities each turn? If the opponent chooses to not interact with your Relentless Dead because of its abilities and you left mana open, have the essentially time walked you? Do you find that its a tempo loss (which I assume it almost always is)?
Also, does no one have feedback on Cryptbreaker? I play a janky Zombies deck with Necromancer's Stockpile. Stockpile is awesome if you can get it going. I assume Cryptbreaker is basically a strictly better version. It would also be the number one reason why I would want to play Relentless Dead because it would be so cheap to get back a Cryptbreaker and dem tokens doh.
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Well, I'm just saying that was the first 3 turns. This is always best on the play. But so what they get a relentless into the yard that stays. A second copy will just dig it out.
Then again, what do you do next turn? Either play on with a geralfs or hold onto any number of your own removal. Dismember Go for the throat, etc. If it becomes a war of attrition you might lose tempo for the first turn or two at the expense of recursive creatures. They spent turns removing something that comes back. Remember removal doesn't increase board presence for the remover. People seem to forget that. And I didn't say my deck didn't contain my own removal.
The two latest versions of liliana sync up very well too as a 3 drop. Flip Lilliana would probably eat the first removal. And if it doesn't, well you have an easy way to bring it back. Also, getting it back and recasting it are two different things.
GenCon tournament report, gentlemen.
Final outcome: 4-0, going 7-1 in all games and getting a cool picture of my name on their undefeated tournament players list.
Anyways, the games.
Match one: Thopter sword.
Game one he didn't do much, he killed a few of my guys, normal style and relentless dead finally did some work against an engineered explosives. But no combo means no problem. Sideboard choices were conservative, without seeing the combo, but seeing blue black I probably should have figured it out but I didn't. Instead I boarded out two of three phantasmal image for two countersquall. In game two I applied early pressure to get things close when he got his combo online. Unfortunately I also had out a blood artist, so he couldn't just hide behind his tokens. (only four mana on his side, and just as many attackers on mine. I could mortarpod the last token to keep him from having a 2/3, and when he tried to relieve the pressure by killing my attackers, messenger and mortarpod finished things up.
Win, 2-0.
Round 2, Ad Nauseum.
This guy got no luck. Paired up, and couldn't find a single copy of ad nauseum. He resolved something like eight cantrips, got his unlife, and angel's graced a few times (to stay at one and prevent the poisoning.) The best play on the night was me using geth's verdict when he was at 1 so that I could deal poison damage (with a pair of physician obliterators, no less). In retrospect, life loss isn't damage so I guess this match should have ended sooner than it did. Things were so bad that game one he lost literally to a pair of diregraf ghouls after a mull to five. Game two was similar. Poor guy.
Win. 2-0.
Round three, Coco Elves:
Game one was an exciting back and forth where our lords squared off and we each got a good board state. He sticks an ezuri, and I have a Drown in Sorrow in hand. He's got enough mana to either over-run his Elves or regenerate them. I go for the alpha strike, since he's at low life and he has to block. He went for the regeneration path, trying to get around my death touch, and leaving enough Elves left so he can win with the life loss elf. So I put through a point or two and lose most of my board, getting another point or two off my lord, and drop the Drown in Sorrow. He winds up with no board presence, but the reset has me in the teens and him nearly dead.
Game two he kept a risky hand that mana screwed him, where as my hand was slower but contained an obliterator and a phantasmal image. A turn one threat put him on the defensive and he never recovered by the time my big guys arrived.
Win. 2-0.
Round Four, Nhiri goodstuff (four color?)
Last round, and I offered a draw, he thinks about it and asks what prize is and ultimately declines. I offer then a split (because there's a tournament of "undefeated players" the next day (technically that day since we started at 10pm the night before) so I offer a split. Again he thinks about it and declines so we go to game one. This game was a bit of a slog, with him having all the answers to all of my threats. Sticking a Nahiri against my Gravecrawlers was huge. But I am sneaking in damage, and killing now his second planeswalker which exiled my obliterator. He's exiting all my good creatures, but my removal is preventing him for sticking anything either. A tragic slip for the clique, a geth's verdict for the celestial collonade, and eventually he goes down.
Now up 1-0 I again offer the split, and he agrees, conceding the match too under the condition that we play the next game. I agree and the second game goes the way o think he planned. I sideboards in my countersquall, but saw none of them and his million path March (combined with a three-for-one anger of the gods to take out my messenger that I tapped out for) which meant he could ultimate his Nahiri and shove an emrakul in my face. I had the verdict for it, but i tapped out to play a messenger and honestly didn't know Nahiri gave haste. He probably had a counterspell even if I knew.
Draw. 1-1. (Reported as 2-0 win)
GenCon tournament report, gentlemen.
Final outcome: 4-0, going 7-1 in all games and getting a cool picture of my name on their undefeated tournament players list.
Anyways, the games.
Match one: Thopter sword.
Game one he didn't do much, he killed a few of my guys, normal style and relentless dead finally did some work against an engineered explosives. But no combo means no problem. Sideboard choices were conservative, without seeing the combo, but seeing blue black I probably should have figured it out but I didn't. Instead I boarded out two of three phantasmal image for two countersquall. In game two I applied early pressure to get things close when he got his combo online. Unfortunately I also had out a blood artist, so he couldn't just hide behind his tokens. (only four mana on his side, and just as many attackers on mine. I could mortarpod the last token to keep him from having a 2/3, and when he tried to relieve the pressure by killing my attackers, messenger and mortarpod finished things up.
Win, 2-0.
Round 2, Ad Nauseum.
This guy got no luck. Paired up, and couldn't find a single copy of ad nauseum. He resolved something like eight cantrips, got his unlife, and angel's graced a few times (to stay at one and prevent the poisoning.) The best play on the night was me using geth's verdict when he was at 1 so that I could deal poison damage (with a pair of physician obliterators, no less). In retrospect, life loss isn't damage so I guess this match should have ended sooner than it did. Things were so bad that game one he lost literally to a pair of diregraf ghouls after a mull to five. Game two was similar. Poor guy.
Win. 2-0.
Round three, Coco Elves:
Game one was an exciting back and forth where our lords squared off and we each got a good board state. He sticks an ezuri, and I have a Drown in Sorrow in hand. He's got enough mana to either over-run his Elves or regenerate them. I go for the alpha strike, since he's at low life and he has to block. He went for the regeneration path, trying to get around my death touch, and leaving enough Elves left so he can win with the life loss elf. So I put through a point or two and lose most of my board, getting another point or two off my lord, and drop the Drown in Sorrow. He winds up with no board presence, but the reset has me in the teens and him nearly dead.
Game two he kept a risky hand that mana screwed him, where as my hand was slower but contained an obliterator and a phantasmal image. A turn one threat put him on the defensive and he never recovered by the time my big guys arrived.
Win. 2-0.
Round Four, Nhiri goodstuff (four color?)
Last round, and I offered a draw, he thinks about it and asks what prize is and ultimately declines. I offer then a split (because there's a tournament of "undefeated players" the next day (technically that day since we started at 10pm the night before) so I offer a split. Again he thinks about it and declines so we go to game one. This game was a bit of a slog, with him having all the answers to all of my threats. Sticking a Nahiri against my Gravecrawlers was huge. But I am sneaking in damage, and killing now his second planeswalker which exiled my obliterator. He's exiting all my good creatures, but my removal is preventing him for sticking anything either. A tragic slip for the clique, a geth's verdict for the celestial collonade, and eventually he goes down.
Now up 1-0 I again offer the split, and he agrees, conceding the match too under the condition that we play the next game. I agree and the second game goes the way o think he planned. I sideboards in my countersquall, but saw none of them and his million path March (combined with a three-for-one anger of the gods to take out my messenger that I tapped out for) which meant he could ultimate his Nahiri and shove an emrakul in my face. I had the verdict for it, but i tapped out to play a messenger and honestly didn't know Nahiri gave haste. He probably had a counterspell even if I knew.
Draw. 1-1. (Reported as 2-0 win)
Congrats! I'm an Indy native so good to see people enjoying the town =P
Could you post your list as well?
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GenCon tournament report, gentlemen.
Final outcome: 4-0, going 7-1 in all games and getting a cool picture of my name on their undefeated tournament players list.
Anyways, the games.
Match one: Thopter sword.
Game one he didn't do much, he killed a few of my guys, normal style and relentless dead finally did some work against an engineered explosives. But no combo means no problem. Sideboard choices were conservative, without seeing the combo, but seeing blue black I probably should have figured it out but I didn't. Instead I boarded out two of three phantasmal image for two countersquall. In game two I applied early pressure to get things close when he got his combo online. Unfortunately I also had out a blood artist, so he couldn't just hide behind his tokens. (only four mana on his side, and just as many attackers on mine. I could mortarpod the last token to keep him from having a 2/3, and when he tried to relieve the pressure by killing my attackers, messenger and mortarpod finished things up.
Win, 2-0.
Round 2, Ad Nauseum.
This guy got no luck. Paired up, and couldn't find a single copy of ad nauseum. He resolved something like eight cantrips, got his unlife, and angel's graced a few times (to stay at one and prevent the poisoning.) The best play on the night was me using geth's verdict when he was at 1 so that I could deal poison damage (with a pair of physician obliterators, no less). In retrospect, life loss isn't damage so I guess this match should have ended sooner than it did. Things were so bad that game one he lost literally to a pair of diregraf ghouls after a mull to five. Game two was similar. Poor guy.
Win. 2-0.
Round three, Coco Elves:
Game one was an exciting back and forth where our lords squared off and we each got a good board state. He sticks an ezuri, and I have a Drown in Sorrow in hand. He's got enough mana to either over-run his Elves or regenerate them. I go for the alpha strike, since he's at low life and he has to block. He went for the regeneration path, trying to get around my death touch, and leaving enough Elves left so he can win with the life loss elf. So I put through a point or two and lose most of my board, getting another point or two off my lord, and drop the Drown in Sorrow. He winds up with no board presence, but the reset has me in the teens and him nearly dead.
Game two he kept a risky hand that mana screwed him, where as my hand was slower but contained an obliterator and a phantasmal image. A turn one threat put him on the defensive and he never recovered by the time my big guys arrived.
Win. 2-0.
Round Four, Nhiri goodstuff (four color?)
Last round, and I offered a draw, he thinks about it and asks what prize is and ultimately declines. I offer then a split (because there's a tournament of "undefeated players" the next day (technically that day since we started at 10pm the night before) so I offer a split. Again he thinks about it and declines so we go to game one. This game was a bit of a slog, with him having all the answers to all of my threats. Sticking a Nahiri against my Gravecrawlers was huge. But I am sneaking in damage, and killing now his second planeswalker which exiled my obliterator. He's exiting all my good creatures, but my removal is preventing him for sticking anything either. A tragic slip for the clique, a geth's verdict for the celestial collonade, and eventually he goes down.
Now up 1-0 I again offer the split, and he agrees, conceding the match too under the condition that we play the next game. I agree and the second game goes the way o think he planned. I sideboards in my countersquall, but saw none of them and his million path March (combined with a three-for-one anger of the gods to take out my messenger that I tapped out for) which meant he could ultimate his Nahiri and shove an emrakul in my face. I had the verdict for it, but i tapped out to play a messenger and honestly didn't know Nahiri gave haste. He probably had a counterspell even if I knew.
Draw. 1-1. (Reported as 2-0 win)
Congrats! I'm an Indy native so good to see people enjoying the town =P
Could you post your list as well?
If you go back a page you'll see a list that I think I'm still running. I play around with the sideboard a bit but...
So....I played my super janky budget crappy Zombies deck online over the weekend. I swapped Necromancer's Stockpile for Cryptbreaker. Holy crap. Crypbreaker + Diregraf Colossus get super nuts. The deck can go so wide its kind of ridiculous. If you manage to get out 2 Colussus, that's just insane. I find I like Inquisition of Kozilek in the board to grab Anger of the Gods from people's hand game 2.
I guess my point is that even in a crappy janky unoptomized build I was blown away by the amount of work Cryptbreaker and Colossus can do. Honestly, I never even once opted to draw a card with Crypbreaker. You don't need to. Turning late game lands into creatures is freaking bonkers. Also, it makes Bloodghast crazy good too. The only thing that kind of sucks about Cryptbreaker is that its a tap ability which means you can only activate it once per turn. That's the one thing that Stockpile has over it. Those two cards where able to wins games all by themself. Strong independent cards don't need no support.
What kind of things do you find you run in your sideboard? Something to shut down graveyard hate would be nice.
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Here is my idea:
4x Gravecrawler
4x Relentless Dead
3x Cemetery Reaper
4x Death Baron
4x Lord of the Undead
4x Diregraf Captain
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Artifact (4)
4x Æther Vial
Land (21)
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Mutavault
4x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Watery Grave
What do you think ?
I wanted to include Phyrexian Crusader as well but Prized Amalgam seems to fit better with:
Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger and Relentless Dead so it would probably go to the SB.
And I don't really have a discard outlet (I don't have Liliana).
I think they would fit better in a dredge shell.
That depends, do you need a card that let's you win more when you're drawing well, and has a greedy interaction with gravecrawler? Or would you rather have a lord that helps when you're behind, that depopulates your graveyard of stuff you want to reanimate?
Cemetery Reaper can exile creatures from opponent's GY as well if necessary, though it would rarely be useful anyway at 3 mana+tap per activation.
Between Cemetery Reaper and Lord of the Undead the latter has the better ability, right ?
Yes, on all counts.
So I played this weekend, ended up 4-1.
Thoughts: I only stuck Relentless Dead a few times, and I'm not sure I'm paying it right yet. It's up there with Obliterator in the "must kill" list and rarely survives long enough to do anything.
Amalgam might be a little better than I gave it credit for. I was worried that it didn't do enough alone (and it doesn't) but if they don't attack the graveyard it can get some work in.
Obliterator is a house. going back to 3 was a Good Decision.
Phantasmal Image might be on the chopping black. I think I sided them out every single game except against tron. I might want more in the side for a tron match-up.
I found I still needed a sac outlet to save him and keep him going because of all the hate.i found that as long as I had a way to sac it in response my opponent would lose card advantage trying to beat it to exile.
Zombies love dying.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
3x Blood Scrivener
2x Cryptbreaker
3x Diregraf Captain
4x Diregraf Ghoul
3x Geralf's Messenger
4x Gravecrawler
3x Liliana, Heretical Healer
3x Relentless Dead
1x Skaab Ruinator
2x Bad Moon
2x Quest for the Gravelord
Sorceries
4x Thoughtseize
Instants
4x Compelling Deterrence
Lands 22
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Cavern of Souls
7x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
4x Polluted Delta
2x Drowned Catacomb
This is my U/B build for now.. I'm focusing more on aggro than graveyard shenanigans, but definitely still keep the graveyard tricks in tact. It is Zombies after all.. Would definitely love some suggestions.
Ya he hasn't been all that exciting.. There is a trick to him though. I've been play testing the crap out of my build, and tweaked some numbers on my post. My curve tops at 3.. So it's pretty easy to just dump your hand in the first 3 turns, depending on your hand. I'm pretty sure the correct number to have of this guy is 3. Because if you draw him after you've dumped your hand, you can immediately start benefiting from him. After this tweak, it has been running pretty good.
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Geralf's Messenger
I'd be interested to hear about people's experiences with Relentless Dead. He just reminds me so much of Tenacious Dead who was just too mana intensive to be worth it. Granted, paying 4 to get him and your Messenger back is pretty boss but still, that's a lot of mana.
Cryptbreaker + Gravecrawler + Prize Amalgam seems like the nuts. On turn 3 you are talking about having like a 1/1, 2x 2/2s, a 2/1, and a 3/3? That's crazy especially since you can block with some of the zombies and then tap them to draw a card. It's card advantage because with Gravecrawler you are getting basically 2 zombies per card. Even more with you add Amalgam to the mix.
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Here's a list (or a close list) of what I'll be trying this weekend.
4 Grave crawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Relentless Dead
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Diregraf Captain
1 Gisa and Geralf
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Liliana, the last hope
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
3 Vapor Snag
3 Remand
1 Unsubstantiate
Land (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Dark slick Shorea
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 hallowed fountain
3 swamp
1 Island
The idea is to apply lots of early pressure with some disruption, while being resilient against removal, and having some late game power in the recursion with Lilly and the stronger creatures like Gisa/Angler.
I've also tried o squeeze a Thought Scour package in here with more Gurmag Anglers and maybe some Lingering Souls. A lot of directions to take this kind of deck.
Zombies against burn is favorable if you have any sort of lifegain, because burning your zombies is wothless and it has to basically all go to the head instead of being used as removal.
A good opening with zombies can pressure ramp decks while establishing a hard to get rid of board presence.
Hatebears probably wouldn't like to see a horde of undying 2/2s.
1 relentless dead in the yard and one on the field with 3 mana = One useless removal for your opponent and one zombie going back to your hand from the yard.
Basically, relentless dead is the real deal as far as a zombie 2 drop goes and it has good 1 drops prior to it.
Additionally,
Obliterators without non damage removal are like instant board stalls for the opponent, and for a mono black/black splash blue or green it's still very easy to cast even at 4 black. Dipping half and half or tri color is bad, but dear god, if you don't have a heroes downfall or dismember or something...
I'm curious how it plays out I guess. How much mana do you leave open each turn? Does that stall out other plays? Can you/do you activate both abilities each turn? If the opponent chooses to not interact with your Relentless Dead because of its abilities and you left mana open, have the essentially time walked you? Do you find that its a tempo loss (which I assume it almost always is)?
Also, does no one have feedback on Cryptbreaker? I play a janky Zombies deck with Necromancer's Stockpile. Stockpile is awesome if you can get it going. I assume Cryptbreaker is basically a strictly better version. It would also be the number one reason why I would want to play Relentless Dead because it would be so cheap to get back a Cryptbreaker and dem tokens doh.
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Then again, what do you do next turn? Either play on with a geralfs or hold onto any number of your own removal. Dismember Go for the throat, etc. If it becomes a war of attrition you might lose tempo for the first turn or two at the expense of recursive creatures. They spent turns removing something that comes back. Remember removal doesn't increase board presence for the remover. People seem to forget that. And I didn't say my deck didn't contain my own removal.
The two latest versions of liliana sync up very well too as a 3 drop. Flip Lilliana would probably eat the first removal. And if it doesn't, well you have an easy way to bring it back. Also, getting it back and recasting it are two different things.
Final outcome: 4-0, going 7-1 in all games and getting a cool picture of my name on their undefeated tournament players list.
Anyways, the games.
Match one: Thopter sword.
Game one he didn't do much, he killed a few of my guys, normal style and relentless dead finally did some work against an engineered explosives. But no combo means no problem. Sideboard choices were conservative, without seeing the combo, but seeing blue black I probably should have figured it out but I didn't. Instead I boarded out two of three phantasmal image for two countersquall. In game two I applied early pressure to get things close when he got his combo online. Unfortunately I also had out a blood artist, so he couldn't just hide behind his tokens. (only four mana on his side, and just as many attackers on mine. I could mortarpod the last token to keep him from having a 2/3, and when he tried to relieve the pressure by killing my attackers, messenger and mortarpod finished things up.
Win, 2-0.
Round 2, Ad Nauseum.
This guy got no luck. Paired up, and couldn't find a single copy of ad nauseum. He resolved something like eight cantrips, got his unlife, and angel's graced a few times (to stay at one and prevent the poisoning.) The best play on the night was me using geth's verdict when he was at 1 so that I could deal poison damage (with a pair of physician obliterators, no less). In retrospect, life loss isn't damage so I guess this match should have ended sooner than it did. Things were so bad that game one he lost literally to a pair of diregraf ghouls after a mull to five. Game two was similar. Poor guy.
Win. 2-0.
Round three, Coco Elves:
Game one was an exciting back and forth where our lords squared off and we each got a good board state. He sticks an ezuri, and I have a Drown in Sorrow in hand. He's got enough mana to either over-run his Elves or regenerate them. I go for the alpha strike, since he's at low life and he has to block. He went for the regeneration path, trying to get around my death touch, and leaving enough Elves left so he can win with the life loss elf. So I put through a point or two and lose most of my board, getting another point or two off my lord, and drop the Drown in Sorrow. He winds up with no board presence, but the reset has me in the teens and him nearly dead.
Game two he kept a risky hand that mana screwed him, where as my hand was slower but contained an obliterator and a phantasmal image. A turn one threat put him on the defensive and he never recovered by the time my big guys arrived.
Win. 2-0.
Round Four, Nhiri goodstuff (four color?)
Last round, and I offered a draw, he thinks about it and asks what prize is and ultimately declines. I offer then a split (because there's a tournament of "undefeated players" the next day (technically that day since we started at 10pm the night before) so I offer a split. Again he thinks about it and declines so we go to game one. This game was a bit of a slog, with him having all the answers to all of my threats. Sticking a Nahiri against my Gravecrawlers was huge. But I am sneaking in damage, and killing now his second planeswalker which exiled my obliterator. He's exiting all my good creatures, but my removal is preventing him for sticking anything either. A tragic slip for the clique, a geth's verdict for the celestial collonade, and eventually he goes down.
Now up 1-0 I again offer the split, and he agrees, conceding the match too under the condition that we play the next game. I agree and the second game goes the way o think he planned. I sideboards in my countersquall, but saw none of them and his million path March (combined with a three-for-one anger of the gods to take out my messenger that I tapped out for) which meant he could ultimate his Nahiri and shove an emrakul in my face. I had the verdict for it, but i tapped out to play a messenger and honestly didn't know Nahiri gave haste. He probably had a counterspell even if I knew.
Draw. 1-1. (Reported as 2-0 win)
Congrats! I'm an Indy native so good to see people enjoying the town =P
Could you post your list as well?
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
If you go back a page you'll see a list that I think I'm still running. I play around with the sideboard a bit but...
I guess my point is that even in a crappy janky unoptomized build I was blown away by the amount of work Cryptbreaker and Colossus can do. Honestly, I never even once opted to draw a card with Crypbreaker. You don't need to. Turning late game lands into creatures is freaking bonkers. Also, it makes Bloodghast crazy good too. The only thing that kind of sucks about Cryptbreaker is that its a tap ability which means you can only activate it once per turn. That's the one thing that Stockpile has over it. Those two cards where able to wins games all by themself. Strong independent cards don't need no support.
What kind of things do you find you run in your sideboard? Something to shut down graveyard hate would be nice.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097