Card Choices
The combo: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Kiki is the namesake of the deck, and the basis of the combo. You will need at least two in order to have a reasonable chance of drawing him, but four can cause problems as he is legendary. Three is the recommended amount, but you can run more or less depending on how much your deck wants to combo off. If you find yourself only wanting one, this is likely the wrong deck for you. Deciever Exarch: Before the banning of Splinter Twin, Exarch was the main combo creature due to being able to survive lightning bolt. However, since Kiki itself is vulnerable to bolt, you can get away with playing more pestermites. However, exarch is a much better blocker in general than mite. Run 3 or 4. Pestermite: The other combo piece. Much better as an attacker, and it can block things like signal pest or inkmoth nexus. It is much more vulnerable than Exarch, however. Run 1 or 2. Simian Spirit Guide: While not strictly part of the combo, SSG does enable a t4 (and potentially t3 if you run enough) kill. Though there are other applications (cryptic blowouts being one of the more common), the main purpose is to help out with comboing off, and so you should adjust it accordingly (ofc, you can just cast it as a 2/2). I recommend 1 copy for 2 Kikis, 2-3 copies for 3 Kikis, and 3-4 copies for 4 Kiki's (though you can certainly do fine without it).
Other options: Zealous Conscripts: While ZC does have uses (stealing a PW, for example) outside of Exarch and Pestermite, her 5 mana cost makes her very difficult to run. While not impossible (esp in builds with SSG), she is difficult. Run 0.
Other Creatures: Snapcaster Mage: Enough said. Run 4. Vendilion Clique: Gives a bit of either hand-fixing for yourself or disruption on your opponent, Clique also is a decent attacker on its lonesome. The legendary status and it not being good in every MU (though it is rarely a bad card) should limiit the amount played. Run 1-0 main and 1-0 SB. Spellskite: Helps with burn and infect, is a solid blocker in the main, and can redirect that 1 removal spell your opponent is holding up for the combo. However, it doesn't really do anything on its own. Run 0-2 main and 0-1 SB (depending on meta). Grim Lavamancer: Can win on his own, helps remove annoying creatures, etc. However, it is really bad in multiples and we already use our gy for snappy. Run 0-1 main and 0-1 SB. Thundermaw Hellkite: Can be accelerated out early with SSG, castable under blood moon, gets rid of souls tokens, and has a very, very good interaction with Kiki. However, it is expensive and doesn't help much with the rest of the gameplan. Better in a meta with Abzan/Mardu/UR Eldrazi. Run 0-1 total in main and SB. Stormbreath Dragon: Similar to Hellkite, except it dodges path and can be a late-game mana sink. It is smaller, however, and generates less value when copied with Kiki. It is also worse against the various eldrazi builds. Run 0-1 total in main and SB. Batterskull: Similar to Thundermaw, except it does not get rid of souls and Kiki does nothing but get a death trigger (as he would target the 0/0 germ token). Better in a meta with Jund and Colorless Eldrazi.
Instant/Sorcery: Serum Visions: Enough said. Run 4. Lightning Bolt: Enough said. Run 4. Peek: While you do get a glimpse at the opponent and it is an instant, in the end it is just 1 mana for 1 card. Run 0-1. Gitaxian Probe: Can be cast for "free", but it is a sorcery and the life loss is relevant. Run 0. Forked Bolt: Cheap and can be used as burn to close out a game. Run 0-1 if your meta has lots of affinity, run 0 otherwise. Electrolyze: A bit more expensive than forked bolt but it can interact at instant speed and draws you a card. Run 0-2 depending on meta and personal preferences. Harvest Pyre: Instant speed and can potentially hit all creatures in modern, but it taxes your yard alot and isn't really any better than roast in the early game (in fact, it is much worse in many situations). Flame Slash: 1 mana, can hit anything. Downsides are that it is a sorcery and there are more 5 toughness creatures than you would expect. Run 0-2 combined. Roast: Our removal spell of choice, as it kills almost every creature in modern. The only downsides are that it is a sorcery and that it can't hit fliers. Run 0-4 combined in main and SB. Terminate: The main reason for a black splash (if you so wish it). It hits everything short of Ulamog, and is better in the Jund matchup as it is able to hit a Raging Ravine. Of course, you will need blood crypt or watery grave to use it. Remember that you cannot (usually) cast this under a blood moon. If you want it, run 2-3 main and a split with roast in the SB (to deal with the aforementioned blood moon scenario). Dispel: Helps protect your combo and there are exactly 0 matchups you might expect to face where it is a dead card. Run 1-3 main and 0-2 SB. Spell Pierce: Similar to dispel, except it can stop things like chalice and Liliana. However, it is (close to) dead in the late game. Run 0-1 main. Swan Song: Gives your opponent a creature, doesn't hit walkers. On the plus side though, it can give you an attacker in late games and if you are comboing off you don't care too much about the creature. Run 0-1 main. Spell Snare: Stops remand, leak, goyf, confidant, blossom, etc. One of the best counters out there. You don't want too many because it is very limited in what it can target. Run 0-2. Negate: Spell pierce that costs more but isn't dead late-game. Run 0-1 SB. Cryptic Command: Does it all. However, it does cost 4 mana and triple blue isn't the easiest thing to achieve (though not particularly difficult unless under moon, either). Run 1-3 main (2 recommended). Mana Leak: Doesn't draw you a card but it can get rid of a threat permanently. However, it is dead late-game. Run 0-4 main. Remand: Our preferred counterspell. Draws a card and creates a nice bit of tempo loss for the opponent. Never a dead draw, but you will have to keep refacing doewn threats. Run 0-4 main.
A note on remand/leak: You should run 4 of one or the other, depending on your meta and deck choice. The more you want to combo off, the more you should lean toward remand. If you want a grindy game, play leak. If your meta is full of aggressive decks, leak is better. If it has lots of things like tron or abzan, remand is usually better.
Combo/Interactions
Main Combo: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker+Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite. In case you were not aware of how this combo works, Kiki taps to put a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of either Exarch or Mite. Said token will trigger upon entering the battlefield and untap Kiki-Jiki. Rinse+Repeat for as many hasty tokens as you want.
While playing the deck, whether or not you jam the combo as soon as possible will depend mostly on what your opponent is playing. Slower decks (control, etc) you should focus more on trying to win with Snapcasters etc unless your opponent taps out enough that your countermagic (if you have any) can take care of whatever removal/counterspells you expect them to have. Other interactions that you can pull off are running Thundermaw Hellkite out and tossing out Kiki next turn for 15 (virtually) unblockable damage (which as a bonus takes care of pesky Lingering Souls tokens). This works similarly with Snappy to get lots of extra value out of your spells. However, you cannot get the Vendillion Clique soft-lock of old twin decks out as Kiki specifies non-legends.
General Tips
Unless you are in imminent danger of losing the game, you should hold Kiki in your hand until your opponent either taps out, shows you their hand (with clique, perhaps), or you have enough counterspells held up to keep whatever you expect the opponent to be holding to be invalidated. You want to save remand and cryptic for major spells your opponent plays (tks, lili, etc), and try to use removal fairly aggressively (obviously don't waste it, but don't just sit there and take 8 damage because you wanted to save your roast for a big creature). In addition, do not be afraid to throw snappy out in ambush viper mode to get a nice trade without having something to flashback. If you either know or suspect that your opponent has something nasty in their hand, a good move is to throw down exarch/mite in their upkeep and tap down a mana source. Otherwise, you should either tap a creature before attackers are declared (make sure that you've entered the combat phase though), as a surprise blocker, or at their end of turn to lock down a last mana source and open the way for your combo.
Matchups
*Will be updated to reflect the most important cards in each MU soon, likely later this week*
Colorless Eldrazi: 55/45 us. Combo Importance: High. We have lots of ways to kill their guys or mess with their mana, and they are stuck on dismember when trying to interact with the combo. However, they are very fast and having them get an Eye online will almost certainly be the end of you.
U/R Eldrazi: 50/50. Combo Importance: High. They have more interaction and tend to flood the board very fast, which you will be hard-pressed to deal with.
Jund: 35/65. Combo Importance: High G1 (you probably won't win otherwise without lots of cryptics but it's possible), Low G2+3 (though if they don't respect it G2 you can bring it back in).
Junk: 45/55. Combo Importance: Medium. Your cards are so much better here as they have generally less answers to the combo and a higher propensity to tap out than Jund.
Burn: 45/55. Combo Importance: Low, but you don't really have anything better. They do play much more of a tap out strategy though, so it is entirely possibly to drag the game out if they respect it too much or jam the combo if they don't.
Zoo (Naya): 55/45. Combo Importance: Medium. Again, they like to tap out alot. However, roast, bolt, and snapcaster can (somewhat) easily run them out of creatures early game. However, they are more likely to run path.
Zoo (Shadow): 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium-Low. They will put themselves in a position where you can simply burn them out most games, and tend to empty their hands very very fast. In addition, they have virtually nothing outside of bolt to stop the combo with.
Abzan Company: 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium-High. As one of two played decks (the other being tron with a Karn ultimate) that can beat their infinite life combo, we have a pretty good shot at this one. They have to beat us down every game, which is not especially easy to do.
Kiki-Chord: 50/50. Combo Importance: High. Often times this will come down to who lands gets the combo first, though they are certainly capable of a straight beatdown.
Infect: 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium-High. They play very few interactions with our combo (skite and vines of vastwood being it), and the plethora of counterspells and removal we have give us a pretty clear edge.
Affinity: 65/35. Combo Importance: High. You almost certainly won't win without it, but they have to pretty much sit around every turn and hope we don't have it.
R/G Tron: 55/45. Combo Importance: High. You will not win without the combo. End of story.
Ad Nauseum: 55/45. Combo Importance: High. Beware of Angel's Grace, as it will save them from your combo and often lead right into their own.
Living End: 50/50. Combo Importance: Medium. They can cascade into Living End at instant speed in response to your combo, and dispel will not save you. On the other hand, remanding an end will almost always win you the game.
Grishoalbrand: 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium. They are capable of winning at instant speed, but they lose hard to dispel and have no way to interact outside of the occasionally torpor orb.
Merfolk: 45/55. Combo Importance: High. Kill their lords and do whatever possible to keep Master of Waves off the battlefield, and you have a shot.
UWR Control: 35/65 preboard, 45/55 post. I have not encountered this deck at all in testing, if anyone has their feel on this MU please let me know.
Sideboard Guide
(note: this only covers the cards not mentioned in the maindeck section) Keranos, God of Storms: Your best bet at winning the Jund matchup, plus he is a house against any sort of slow deck (Moon and Living End come to mind). Run 2. Ancient Grudge: Good vs Lantern and Affinity, can hit random other artifacts (Aether Vial). However, you will need either Stomping Ground or Breeding Pool to use it effectively. Run 1-2. Jace, Architect of Thought: Good in the mirror and some Jund/Junk variants, but not great elsewhere. Run 0-1 depending on meta. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Strictly for the mirror and slower Grisel variants. Run 0 unless this deck becomes popular. Anger of the Gods: Backbreaking against the various Aggro/Company decks out there. Run 2-3 depending on meta. Blood Moon: Gets you some free wins, and stops both tron and colorless eldrazi virtually in their tracks while it is out. On the other hand, cryptic is basically uncastable with one out. Run 2. Shatterstorm: If you see alot of affinity/lantern, this can be a nice card to throw in. Otherwise you should leave it out as we tend to have a good MU against both those decks. Run 0. Rending Volley: Mainly used for the mirror and Esper/Jeskai control. However, those matchups are not very common. Run 0. Izzet Staticaster: Excellent against Affinity, Infect, and lingering souls/young pyromancer decks. Run 0-1. Engineered Explosives: Similar to staticaster, but it hits all tokens and can function as a nice sweeper (looking at you, boggles/merfolk). Best used if running 3+ colors. Run 0-1. Pyroclasm: There are just about 0 situations where this is better than Anger (maybe affinity?). Run 0. Counterflux: Mostly used in the Amulet Bloom matchup. Also has merits against decks where there is 1 spell that you absolutely cannot let resolve (Scapeshift, Living End, etc). Run 0-1. Pia and Kiran Nalaar: Good against about everything but aggro. However, in almost every instance there is a better card for that matchup. Run 0-1. Firespout: Can keep your fliers alive but a stomping ground will allow both aspects to be cast. Better in a meta with lots of token decks (hitting only fliers) or if you run Pia/Kiran. Run 0-2 depending on meta and personal preference. Mizzium Skin: Stops things like Abrupt Decay or Rending Volley. Gets better depending on how much you want to combo off. Run 0-2. Threads of Disloyalty: Good against something like goyf. Run 0-1. Sower of Temptation: Similar to threads, but better against Junk (and it can hit things like rhino too) as they don't use bolt. Run 0-1. Crumble to Dust: Mainly for use in the tron and scapeshift MU's. Can be brought in against eldrazi as well. Run 0-1 depending on meta. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: Excellent against midrange decks (and can beat lantern under a bridge, too). However, you will have to alter your manabase. Run 0-1, and only if you use terminate MD.
See Also
While there do not appear to be any UR Kiki articles, Pascal Maynard posted series of articles on UR Twin, which can be found on the Channel Fireball website.
Not sure if anyone still follows this thread, but I'm posting here to say that I took the following list 4-1 at my last local FNM, my only loss being to signing up late and missing the 1st round of the about 20-person event. My wins were against UR Delver (2-1), Jeskai Nahiri (2-1), UB Tezerrator (2-1, but would've been 2-0 if I didn't let Tez ultimate on the last possible turn for game 2 xD), and Bant Eldrazi (2-1):
After playing the list, a few things became glaringly obvious to me:
The Batterskull in the side should be a 2nd Keranos. When I read the primer above, I was a skeptic of playing 2, but Kernos did much more work than BSkull ever could have, and he wasn't a creature most of the time. The 3 damage lets me get through under an Ensnaring Bridge, and the deck wants the card advantage of extra Bolts and draws. Very solid, probably mainboard-able.
The deck wants a 2nd Clique in the main. The fact that it was a 3 power flyer was very relevant, and whenever I cast it, it had a huge impact on the game.
Blood Moon is still very good, and actually fixes your mana to cast Kiki more often than not. I still want to play them mainboard.
This may come as no surprise to anyone still following, but Ancestral Vision (AV) is very good. AV broke the Jeskai Nahiri match wide open, and made it feel easy. Edit: The guy's Nahiri list wasn't playing AV.
Some cards that were rather underwhelming tonight: Cryptic and Spellskite.
Cards that overperformed: AV, Keranos, and Ancient Grudge (it singlehandedly makes the Tezzeraor match in our favor)
Well, that's it for now. I'll probably be testing this list further on XMage, and maybe take it for a spin next Sat. for Modern.
This is more or less just a standard twin list with kiki replacing twin and some pestermites replacing exarchs since the combo is no longer unboltable anyway.
The decision to include Ancestral Vision over Serum visions stems from the fact that i will be comboing turn 5 the earliest anyway and it lines up well with that plan, it might be better to cut the number of kikis and include some more utility creatures like Goblin Dark Dwellers to have more game when the combo is not good.
the other deck idea was a bit more exotic with the main idea stemming from Pestermite being better than or at least equal to deciever exarch in many cases now (it´s a much better threat on it´s own but it is squishier) and also being a fairie, same goes for vendilion clique obviously.
From there the inclusion of spellstutter sprite seemed natural since it is a really good card if supported.
Also mistbind clique fills some very important roles now in this version.
It protects the combo by not only forcing your oponent to answer it since it is a fast clock but by tapping the oponent out on turn 4 so you can combo safely turn 5.
Also all the fairies provide value with kiki jiki even if you don´t combo out.
This is just a rough draft since i have not gotten enough testing with it yet but from what i have seen it seemed promissing, but the afore mentioned question still lingers, why not just play jeskai instead of UR?
anyway in case this thread gets revived somewhat, let me know what you think.
IMO, the manabase can't support white without folding to Blood Moon. Plus, Moon is also the biggest reason to play straight UR -- it gives you just as many free wins as having the combo does (well, used to -- Kiki is much easier to interact with than Twin). As for Fae v. traditional Twin, I fall on the side of Twin -- I'm not sure why tho. Last night, I found that the fact Deceiver can block most anything is very much a boon. Sprite, Mite, Clique, Snap, etc., can't do that.
I'll have to test with a Fae-style list and see what I find out.
I started to test this deck out of Twin nostalgia last week. I've been surprised by the testing so far: the deck works. I've been putting up decent results on Cockatrice. Not saying is viable yet, but it definitely could be.
Main differences between my list and that of the opening post:
* I really think Pestermite is much better than Exarch in a Kiki-Jiki deck. The Bolt argument isn't there anymore, Pestermite better enables our tempo gameplan without downsides. I don't see reasons to run any Exarch before you max out on Pestermites.
* Simian Spirit Guide is not the way to go. I've tried it. I also tried Desperate Ritual. The thing is, we need to bear in mind we are no Grishoalbrand/Ad Nasueam/Storm type of deck. We can combo, but we don't necessarily want to combo. So we need cards that work on themselves and are relevant on themselves like Cryptics or Bolts. We don't need "combo enablers" just to go off faster. If one wants to combo off fast, it's better to play Storm.
* Pact of Negation is a crucial card in this deck. It allows us to do the same thing Splinter Twin did: combo off with protection on turn 5 (Twin + Dispel = Kiki + Pact). And we desperately need that for control MUs if we are to have a chance to steal game 1. Pact is also great against all these decks that run spot removal, but not too much of it. Like say Eldrazi Taxes, that only runs 5-6 removals (Paths and Dismembers), or Company decks. If we go off protected with 1 Pact it's usually going to be enough. When games go long, Pact is a good card on its own: after all it's still a hard counterspell. Another great thing about Pact is the surprise effect. People don't see it coming. They think holding up mana for 1 removal/counterspell is going to be enough, but it won't, thanks to Pact.
Now all of this being said, I'm still unsure about this deck. And an additional reason for that is the feeling I have I'm just playing a bad version of Jeskai Kiki. Restoration Angel, Path to Exile, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace and Elspeth, Sun's Champion are amazing cards. Is Blood Moon really a good enough reason not to run them?
I can see why you might have a poor Control matchup: you don run either AV or Moon. Moon is great against most any 3c deck, and is enough to win against some control decks on its own. You can easily tempo out your opponents when you have AV, because it lets you set the pace of the game around it to make a never-ending flow of cards. If your opponent wants to fight over AV, it's an uphill battle since you have all of your mana at the ready and can tap out safely.
My testing shows that the best sequence against a control deck is to cast a Pestermite/Deceiver on their end step with AV on one -- especially with a Moon in hand. This allows you to force a creature through, fight over AV, and if they try to stop any of it, you jam a Moon into their tapped out mana.
Edit: to address your points, I agree that Simian doesn't fit, but I have to test Exarch v Mite. I think the extra power certainly matters, but I don't want the deck to fall over against decks with Bolt or Kommand. Plus, Exarch also serves a defensive purpose.
I can see why you might have a poor Control matchup: you don run either AV or Moon. Moon is great against most any 3c deck, and is enough to win against some control decks on its own. You can easily tempo out your opponents when you have AV, because it lets you set the pace of the game around it to make a never-ending flow of cards. If your opponent wants to fight over AV, it's an uphill battle since you have all of your mana at the ready and can tap out safely.
My testing shows that the best sequence against a control deck is to cast a Pestermite/Deceiver on their end step with AV on one -- especially with a Moon in hand. This allows you to force a creature through, fight over AV, and if they try to stop any of it, you jam a Moon into their tapped out mana.
Edit: to address your points, I agree that Simian doesn't fit, but I have to test Exarch v Mite. I think the extra power certainly matters, but I don't want the deck to fall over against decks with Bolt or Kommand. Plus, Exarch also serves a defensive purpose.
I'm at work so I'll be quick:
* I didn't mention the MU vs control being bad, I just meant I feel Pact is crucial for those MUs.
* In this deck, I'd run Serum Vision over Ancestral Vision anyday; we need instant cards selection not drawing cards in 4 turns.
* I do run Moon. 3 copies. Check the list
* Mite dying to Bolt and Kolaghan's is irrelevant, 'cause Kiki dies to these cards as well. So even if you have Exarch, they can stop your combo with a Bolt. This is why running Exarch over Mite doesn't make sense here. Aggressive decks are to be dealt with otherwise (spot removals and sweepers). We need these 2 flying damages to pressure people with Snap-Bolt and such.
I can see pact being very good g1 for your list. I think that a list maining Blood Moon and/or AV doesn't need pact since they have other ways to apply pressure. Especially an AV list has plenty of feul to keep ahead without trying to combo.
I agree that Serum is more important in UR Kiki than AV -- I'm running 4 Serums too. I just think that AV is also very good, even only running 3. AV shores up midrange and control matchups, so I run both. Honestly, I thought the card would be terrible, but I just tried it out without second guessing and was very impressed at how well it fits into our game plan. Or at least, a tempo gameplan. My list is more tempo-oriented than combo-oriented.
When I was referencing Moon, I meant in G1 before sideboarding. You have them post board, but the matchup changes entirely after sideboard. For example, I typically board away from the combo against control; which changes priorities again.
You're right that the combo is weak to bolt already, so Mite v Exarch is unimportant with the combo in mind. However, outside of the combo, Mite dying to Shock effects certainly matters. Against any Snap-Bolt deck, it'll be very hard to keep up pressure if all your creatures die to most anything. I think that leaning on Exarch more lets you ensure you have a creature on board at all times -- it's also a combo piece, which translates to having the threat of combo at all times. If you do want to lean on Mite, I think mainboard Dispels are a must. [Edit: That said, I'll be testing 3 Mite, 3 Exarch going forward instead of 2:4. Vendilion Clique helps a lot too.]
This is my list. Since I'm not sure an agreed upon "stock list" really exists yet, I don't really know what I "cut" to fit in other cards.
As far as pressure is concerned, Exarch does count. Even if it's just 1 point of damage, it adds up -- especially with multiple Exarchs in play. Having an Exarch out also provides a possibily of combo that makes the opponent play differently -- whether they have the Bolt or not, they must play around Kiki+protection since you have the other required parts in play. It's the difference of a possible 3 card combo in hand (Kiki/Deceiver/Dispel, which is more unlikely) to a possible 2 card combo in hand (Kiki/Dispel in hand, Deceiver on board).
AV is slow, but it does help you get out from under Lili oppression or a bunch of early discard spells. Against control, you have all the time in the world to resolve AV, and better ways to capitalize on Remanding their AV's (the combat step). Regardless, not playing AV against a deck that plays attrition isn't going to help.
Edit: The only decks that Blood Moon is dead against are UR Delver and Blue Moon. It's basically never a dead card, but even when it is you have loothouse. Moon isn't great against Burn, but it still cuts off Helix, Boros Charm, and Atarka's Command.
I disagree on both Moon (you even run 3!) and Exarch, but let's focus on AV, the part I'm more interested in.
* Why are you running 3 and not 4?
* How bad has it been, honestly, vs aggressive decks?
* How bad of a topdeck has it been?
* How would you describe your MU vs BGx, Grixis Control and Jeskai Control with Vision in terms of percentages? I would describe my MU vs Jund as 40-60 at best without it, Abzan is more of a 45-55 MU while both Grixis and Jeskai Control are 50/50 MUs. I'm trying to figure out how much these percentages can improve by running Vision and how much my MU vs aggressive decks will get worse to see if it's worth it.
Two additional questions:
* Why did you chose to cut a card like Electrolyze if you're trying to get grindy?
* Why aren't you running Wandering Fumarole?
Not the person you asked, but the reason i run AV is that it comes off suspend on our critical turn. A t4 mite + av about to come off suspend is essentially attacking your opponent from three separate angles, it makes it extremely easy for your opponent to make a mistake, and sometimes there just is no correct choice.
Im incredibly sick of hearing about how AV is bad vs aggressive decks, if your consistently dying vs aggro before t5 as a bolt snap bolt deck, your bad at magic, go play bogles or something. Sure, i typically cut the card ppst board just to have more removal, but i usually trimmed serum visions anyway in these matchups, since scrying 2 isnt what you want to be doing in the early turns vs burn/affinity
Its been 50/50 as a top deck, sometimes i draw it turn 6 when i needed an answer, sometimes i draw it turn 6 and it comes off suspend 4 turns later vs elves and helps me restabilize after they rebuilt.
As for fumarole, i dont like my lands entering tapped in this deck and i dont like my lands dying to bolt. I really wish they made this land a 4/1 that turned into a 1/4
I disagree on both Moon (you even run 3!) and Exarch, but let's focus on AV, the part I'm more interested in.
* Why are you running 3 and not 4?
* How bad has it been, honestly, vs aggressive decks?
* How bad of a topdeck has it been?
* How would you describe your MU vs BGx, Grixis Control and Jeskai Control with Vision in terms of percentages? I would describe my MU vs Jund as 40-60 at best without it, Abzan is more of a 45-55 MU while both Grixis and Jeskai Control are 50/50 MUs. I'm trying to figure out how much these percentages can improve by running Vision and how much my MU vs aggressive decks will get worse to see if it's worth it.
Two additional questions:
* Why did you chose to cut a card like Electrolyze if you're trying to get grindy?
* Why aren't you running Wandering Fumarole?
I'm running 3 AV's because you don't really need more and the deck doesn't really have room for the 4th. It's been pretty bad against aggro in general, but when you draw it early and have Bolt in hand, the likelihood is that it's going to resolve -- but that gets into the realm of winmore. My win percentage against aggro has been directly proportional to the number of Bolts/Burst Lightning, Snappys, and Deceivers I draw, and honestly it's been pretty good. I beat UR Delver last Saturday in my matches. As far as topdecks go, AV is never a bad draw, per se. Sometimes it doesn't do anything, but you suspend it anyways and stall into it and it wins the game. Sometimes you suspend it and draw nothing relevant and die -- you were going to lose that game anyways. And sometimes you draw it with plenty of action, and you suspend it in case something goes wrong, or you lean on it to bait out counter or something. Basically, when it's good it's very good, but when it's bad it doesn't really matter.
I'm going to be straight with you tho about BGx -- I've never played a match with UR Kiki against them (I literally started testing it for fun on XMage a week and a half ago, played it Friday to see how it would do and seriously spike my local tournament. Now, I played Twin a lot before it was banned and have some experience with Jeskai Kiki-Angel; but I haven't put too many games in with this deck. I saw how well it performed, decided to really invest into the deck, and posted the semi-report above. So, in short, my speculation on BGx and AV is just that -- speculation.
I don't run Electrolyze because I'm not grindy, I'm tempoey. 3 mana for a shock, no matter whether it draws or not, is too much of a tempo loss for me. I don't like Fumarole because it makes you tap out, and only does 1 damage at all times unless you expose it to Bolt.
I disagree on both Moon (you even run 3!) and Exarch, but let's focus on AV, the part I'm more interested in.
* Why are you running 3 and not 4?
* How bad has it been, honestly, vs aggressive decks?
* How bad of a topdeck has it been?
* How would you describe your MU vs BGx, Grixis Control and Jeskai Control with Vision in terms of percentages? I would describe my MU vs Jund as 40-60 at best without it, Abzan is more of a 45-55 MU while both Grixis and Jeskai Control are 50/50 MUs. I'm trying to figure out how much these percentages can improve by running Vision and how much my MU vs aggressive decks will get worse to see if it's worth it.
Two additional questions:
* Why did you chose to cut a card like Electrolyze if you're trying to get grindy?
* Why aren't you running Wandering Fumarole?
Not the person you asked, but the reason i run AV is that it comes off suspend on our critical turn. A t4 mite + av about to come off suspend is essentially attacking your opponent from three separate angles, it makes it extremely easy for your opponent to make a mistake, and sometimes there just is no correct choice.
Im incredibly sick of hearing about how AV is bad vs aggressive decks, if your consistently dying vs aggro before t5 as a bolt snap bolt deck, your bad at magic, go play bogles or something. Sure, i typically cut the card ppst board just to have more removal, but i usually trimmed serum visions anyway in these matchups, since scrying 2 isnt what you want to be doing in the early turns vs burn/affinity
Its been 50/50 as a top deck, sometimes i draw it turn 6 when i needed an answer, sometimes i draw it turn 6 and it comes off suspend 4 turns later vs elves and helps me restabilize after they rebuilt.
As for fumarole, i dont like my lands entering tapped in this deck and i dont like my lands dying to bolt. I really wish they made this land a 4/1 that turned into a 1/4
Thanks for the input! If you have a list you're playing (or would play) then please post it! All the input we can get is appreciated.
Right, I see. So you're also just getting started. I mean I've played Twin for ages but there are some differences and we all need to practice a little bit more with this deck to see how viable it actually is.
So I'll test 3x Vision in my list (I'll cut 1x Exarch, 1x Pact and move 1x Clique to the sideboard) and get back to you.
But I highly encourage you to put Fumarole and Electrolyze in, along with 4x Pestermite if you are to be tempoey. I also thought Fumarole was bad because of the x/1, but it's not that big of a deal. Our opponents don't have 1'000 bolts. They can't kill our Pestermites, our Kikis, our Cliques, our Lavamancers and then also kill Fumarole. It's 4 damages in an empty field, as many as Celestial Colonnade but only needs 4 mana for activation. It's a decent blocker. You don't have to animate it if you feel it would get killed. But it can be really useful. It literally won me games. After all we just need to deal those 6-8 damages before we get our opponent into Snap-Bolt range. With my list I'm trying to get there with the 4 Pestermites, Clique, Lavamancer, Electrolyze and Fumarole. These cards combined with some self damage should be able to bring our opponent to 10-12 life and at that point we can win via Bolt-Snap-Bolt. This is how you enable our tempo gameplan in my view. Not with Exarchs or with maindeck Moons.
How bout this -- when I get a chance, I'll run back your exact 75 a few times on XMage. That way, I can appreciate all the moving parts at once. After all, there's more to a deck than simple card choices.
Also, I can't believe I forgot this: Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the input!
I disagree on both Moon (you even run 3!) and Exarch, but let's focus on AV, the part I'm more interested in.
* Why are you running 3 and not 4?
* How bad has it been, honestly, vs aggressive decks?
* How bad of a topdeck has it been?
* How would you describe your MU vs BGx, Grixis Control and Jeskai Control with Vision in terms of percentages? I would describe my MU vs Jund as 40-60 at best without it, Abzan is more of a 45-55 MU while both Grixis and Jeskai Control are 50/50 MUs. I'm trying to figure out how much these percentages can improve by running Vision and how much my MU vs aggressive decks will get worse to see if it's worth it.
Two additional questions:
* Why did you chose to cut a card like Electrolyze if you're trying to get grindy?
* Why aren't you running Wandering Fumarole?
Not the person you asked, but the reason i run AV is that it comes off suspend on our critical turn. A t4 mite + av about to come off suspend is essentially attacking your opponent from three separate angles, it makes it extremely easy for your opponent to make a mistake, and sometimes there just is no correct choice.
Im incredibly sick of hearing about how AV is bad vs aggressive decks, if your consistently dying vs aggro before t5 as a bolt snap bolt deck, your bad at magic, go play bogles or something. Sure, i typically cut the card ppst board just to have more removal, but i usually trimmed serum visions anyway in these matchups, since scrying 2 isnt what you want to be doing in the early turns vs burn/affinity
Its been 50/50 as a top deck, sometimes i draw it turn 6 when i needed an answer, sometimes i draw it turn 6 and it comes off suspend 4 turns later vs elves and helps me restabilize after they rebuilt.
As for fumarole, i dont like my lands entering tapped in this deck and i dont like my lands dying to bolt. I really wish they made this land a 4/1 that turned into a 1/4
Thanks for the input! If you have a list you're playing (or would play) then please post it! All the input we can get is appreciated.
Mmmmmm I see you cut Serum. This really doesn't look like a good idea. It has always been a key component of the Splinter Twin deck and I don't see why it wouldn't be key here as well. Cut Serum to run cards like YP, Mana Leak or Harvest Pyre seems wrong.
Mana leak is great in the deck, sometimes you just need something gone.
Harvest pyre helps the bgx matchup a ton, it kills goyfs and shrinks the future ones
Young pyromancer is my current experiment, testing has been 50/50
Either way, none of these cards are replacing serum visions. Only AV is replacing serum visions.
Mmmmmm I see you cut Serum. This really doesn't look like a good idea. It has always been a key component of the Splinter Twin deck and I don't see why it wouldn't be key here as well. Cut Serum to run cards like YP, Mana Leak or Harvest Pyre seems wrong.
Mana leak is great in the deck, sometimes you just need something gone.
Harvest pyre helps the bgx matchup a ton, it kills goyfs and shrinks the future ones
Young pyromancer is my current experiment, testing has been 50/50
Either way, none of these cards are replacing serum visions. Only AV is replacing serum visions.
I would never cut Serum for any reason -- the card is too damn good! Even for AV, I think you want to max out on Serum first since it gives you information immediately when you cast it. AV is really just a draw spell, but Serum is selection, and this deck needs the selection more -- we need the right mix of combo pieces, control, and aggressive creatures in every game.
Noone else mentioned it, bfrie, but 4 Steam Vents is too much. I'd drop at least one for another basic Island, and I highly suggest fitting in a Breeding Pool to play Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.
As for Harvest Pyre, I'm not sure it's better than something like Roast. I know instant speed is important, but delving away your graveyard is just too suspect with 4 Snapcasters in the deck, and some people run things like Grim Lavamancer too. I don't mind Mana Leak all that much, and I actually almost included it in my list, but I just felt like other cards were more necessary. Young Pyro seems a little weird, but I could see it working out -- it seems way too aggressive on the surface, but it's great at creating chump blockers for a more controlling role and it also generates massive tempo. In a deck that already tries to dilute Lightning Bolt's targets, another x/1 won't hurt.
Speaking of diluting Bolts, I've tested a bit of KikiMite (i.e., no Deceivers) and I must say I've noticed a difference. Maybe we don't want 4 Deceivers, but I definitely want to play at least 2, since it's defensive capabilities and the fact that it's another combo piece both matter -- as I suspected, without them it's hard to keep a stable board presence (no matter how small). I'm going to start testing the 3/3 split again, tho I'm not sure what I'll cut -- I haven't see enough of Electrolyze at this point to make a definitive opinion.
Mmmmmm I see you cut Serum. This really doesn't look like a good idea. It has always been a key component of the Splinter Twin deck and I don't see why it wouldn't be key here as well. Cut Serum to run cards like YP, Mana Leak or Harvest Pyre seems wrong.
Mana leak is great in the deck, sometimes you just need something gone.
Harvest pyre helps the bgx matchup a ton, it kills goyfs and shrinks the future ones
Young pyromancer is my current experiment, testing has been 50/50
Either way, none of these cards are replacing serum visions. Only AV is replacing serum visions.
I would never cut Serum for any reason -- the card is too damn good! Even for AV, I think you want to max out on Serum first since it gives you information immediately when you cast it. AV is really just a draw spell, but Serum is selection, and this deck needs the selection more -- we need the right mix of combo pieces, control, and aggressive creatures in every game.
Noone else mentioned it, bfrie, but 4 Steam Vents is too much. I'd drop at least one for another basic Island, and I highly suggest fitting in a Breeding Pool to play Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.
As for Harvest Pyre, I'm not sure it's better than something like Roast. I know instant speed is important, but delving away your graveyard is just too suspect with 4 Snapcasters in the deck, and some people run things like Grim Lavamancer too. I don't mind Mana Leak all that much, and I actually almost included it in my list, but I just felt like other cards were more necessary. Young Pyro seems a little weird, but I could see it working out -- it seems way too aggressive on the surface, but it's great at creating chump blockers for a more controlling role and it also generates massive tempo. In a deck that already tries to dilute Lightning Bolt's targets, another x/1 won't hurt.
Speaking of diluting Bolts, I've tested a bit of KikiMite (i.e., no Deceivers) and I must say I've noticed a difference. Maybe we don't want 4 Deceivers, but I definitely want to play at least 2, since it's defensive capabilities and the fact that it's another combo piece both matter -- as I suspected, without them it's hard to keep a stable board presence (no matter how small). I'm going to start testing the 3/3 split again, tho I'm not sure what I'll cut -- I haven't see enough of Electrolyze at this point to make a definitive opinion.
I actually have never been a fan of serum visions. One day i may put them back in, but i have not missed them at all since i cut them. They always felt extremely clunky, and are terrible with fethclands.
Less than 4 steam vents is a mistake. I run a total of 9 red producing lands, of which 4 can be fetched. I need triple red, so sometimes as little as a single stone rain effect in one game can end that. If a had scalding tarns for the basic mountains i would agree with you however.
Again, running a breeding pool for grudge means cutting on red producing lands, something that is far too difficult. With Tarns and Misty's i would for sure run a stomping ground.
As far as harvest pyre is concerned, ive easily put in 100 matches with the card and would never cut it without splashing black for terminate. Please, do your own testing with the card before judging it. We are a deck very good at filling out our own yard and pyre has never caused issues with snapcaster just as delve creatures work fine in grixis. The card is far too good against goyf, and there is a lot of bgx in my meta. I would go down to 2 kiki before i would cut this card
Edit; young pyromancer has been medium so far. Good against control and aggro and combo , bad against midrange and tron and thalia decks
You assume I haven't played with Harvest Pyre before...
Well, I have. I played it in Twin way before most people even knew Pyre existed. Yes, it's a fine card; that said, I think it has too much of a non-bo with Snapcaster. About going up to 2, I always hated them in multiples because you can basically never Snap them back, and the second is always far worse than the first -- typically the second only does ~3 damage, which isn't enough to do much work against BGx (if only it could hit Lili, then I'd change my mind).
IMO, Roast is very similar to Pyre, except that it always does the same thing (kills x/5's) without interfering with the graveyard, which makes it much more consistent. Plus, you can always snap back Roast and get full value from it. If you need the effect at instant speed or against flyers, play 1 Pyre. If not, play Roast.
About Serum, I guess it's your call, but I'm very sure that cutting it is a mistake. It's not even that bad with fetches -- fetch them away first, then Serum. If you can, just don't fetch until you have to. Still, fetching away stuff kept with Serum isn't the end of the world, and it's not really that much lost "value". In fact, it goes both ways -- I have often put a medium card on top 2nd with Serum so that I could fetch it away if i wanted to.
With the mana base, you're right -- I overlooked the differences necessitated by having non-R fetches. I'll leave that to you. But you could still splash a Pool in the place of an Island to keep the red sources.
In other news, if I go to SNM this week with Kiki, I'll actually be playing RUG Kiki. The people at my LGS claimed that they got wrecked by being thrown 2 curveballs at once -- the combo and mainboard Blood Moon. Now that they know, it's time to throw them another curveball -- that's where Goyf comes in. Surely they're going to play around Moon, so I might end up just sideboarding it or not including it for now. Here's what I'm looking at for preliminary XMage testing:
Looks fine. I would consider some green cards in the sideboard like Krosan Grip but since you're going in a very small environment you know your opponents pretty well I guess you know what you want to be sideboarding.
I agree with you on both Serum and Roast - and disagree with bfrie. And I want to stress again how Serum is a key component of the deck, it's like cutting Sylvan Scrying from a Tron deck.
I don't get why nobody of you is running Dark-Dwellers. They're so better than the second Keranos (and possibly even better than the first right now). Combined with Kiki-Jiki is usually gg.
I'm not a huge GDD fan in the Keranos slot -- Keranos is meant to literaly take over the game by itself, and GDD just doesn't do that very well without a little help. The best thing it can hit is AV, but that's a one-time thing. Keranos is a long-term investment, but given time it WILL end the game unanswered. Then again, maybe it's because my lists aren't as "all in" as the ones you prefer (not a bad thing, but just personal preference) -- I can almost never get a Kiki to stick for long in any of my games, but when I do it always wins because they're 1) tapped out to deal with other things, 2) locked out by Blood Moon with no relevant interaction, or 3) I got info from a Clique and nabbed their only answer. So, Kiki'ing a GDD isn't realistic for me, and Keranos is more likely to stick around to do what he does.
So, after testing the RUG list a little, I find I'm not quite comfortable with it. Much like I was with Twin, I just find 2 colors to be simple and sweet. Goyf has been very good, don't get me wrong -- especially with the Kiki plan instead of a Twin plan, the extra creature left over if they deal with Kiki is much more potent with a threat like Goyf to slaughter them with assistance from chip-damage. Despite that, I like being able to turtle up behind a Blood Moon, flash a Kiki, and watch them scoop it up. Maybe I'll test a typical UR list in my style, but jam 4 Goyfs in there as my only green cards. Krasis just doesn't stand up very well to Mite and Deceiver, which provide the perfect duo of offense/defense.
Edit: I'm just whining because I want my mainboard Blood Moons back.
One thing on Keranos: he is terrible when there's a Goyf or anything else beating you down. This is my problem with Keranos. When it wins you games, it means you weren't in a bad spot to start with. Dark-Dwellers can reverse the tide. If there's a Vision in grave it's often gg. If you combine it with Kiki-Jiki it's often gg. Deals 4 damages per turn unless there are 2 blockers, so is a faster clock. The good thing about Keranos has always been the inevitability. But now with more and more Celestial Purges around, even that part is disappearing. I run 1 myself, but I think 2 may be too much.
On the splash, IMHO, if I were to splash the best one is the white splash for Restoration Angel, Celestial Colonnade, Path to Exile and some of the best sideboard cards in the format.
I've found Keranos as an important out to Ensnaring Bridge decks, for what it's worth. Still, I've noticed that he's not very good in BGx matches when you're behind, so idk. Btw, I played against Jund on XMage with UR Kiki for the first time today (with RUG) and got 2-0d -- even when I resolved Keranos G2. Not a good matchup at all.
Welp, I'm back on UR. Personally, I'm not surprised -- I never got on board with TarmoTwin either. But yeah, I value mainboard Moons way too much to go cutting them for Tarmogoyf (essentially). I agree that leaning on Mite is better for now, but some amount of Deceivers are necessary since there are a few decks that run both Kolaghan's Command and Bolt, namely Grixis Midrange/Control and Jund. Without any non-x/1 creatures, these matchups seem miserable. Against UR Moon or Scapeshift, for example, you can play around Bolt. But against Jund/Grixis, you must resolve Moon for any of the creatures to stick -- and even still, they die on the spot if your opponent has a swamp.
Also, after testing, I really think I want the 4th AV too -- you want it at literally all stages of the game, and especially T1. I'm not sold on Electrolyze, but it seems like a must against Lingering Souls, which is hard to deal with without a huge beater like Goyf. Maybe GDD has more merit than I though (to stomp right though Souls), but I hate that it's another clunky 5-mana sorcery.
Just for the record, I'm testing the white splash. I've got issues with the straight UR version because the Jund MU is too bad. And right now Jund is the most played deck in the format at 10% meta share. So it doesn't make sense to be a dog to Jund. So yea 4x AV for sure, but also, I think a splash is needed. White improves the Jund MU significantly, it gets close to a 50/50 MU. Resto is better than Pestermite, Path takes care of Goyf, Colonnade is strong and bringing in cards like Elspeth, Finks, Timely or Purge is waaay better than relying on resolving a Moon or win via Keranos. Not to mention you can board in Geist.
I guess the question you have to ask is, if your splashing white, are you not better off with nahiri?
Alright, here's where I've landed for my preferred RUG list -- it's just UR with Tarmogoyfs. It even runs the Blood Moons in the main. I guess that's kindof my signature.
I still have 3 Kikis in the main. This is because the list still combos off in a bunch of matchups, particularly once Blood Moon hits the table. There are many times where you know they'd be dead if you could just draw Kiki.
No Bounding Krasis -- tapping non-creatures can be very important, especially lands (Tron lands, a black land against BGx on their upkeep t3 to stop Lili from coming down too early, cutting off a color -- which is super common with Blood Moon) and artifacts (O-Stone).
To answer the obvious question, here's why I'm splashing a whole color literally just for Goyf (other than obvious stuff like "it draws out removal"): it applies a lot of pressure, so we can play around Wraths and 2-for-1's really easily, and it lets us attack through tokens/chump blockers.
Still not sure how to solve the BGx matchup, but T3 Moon seems good. I do think you want to keep in the combo, tho (at least with Moon in the deck). What are everyone's sb plans against Jund and Abzan? Jund is much worse for us than Abzan, I would think. That whole Kommand+Bolt thing.
Still not sure how to solve the BGx matchup, but T3 Moon seems good. I do think you want to keep in the combo, tho (at least with Moon in the deck). What are everyone's sb plans against Jund and Abzan? Jund is much worse for us than Abzan, I would think. That whole Kommand+Bolt thing.
My enthousiasm over making Twin live again is fading away to be honest. And that's the reason. This deck just can't have a good MU vs BGx. It was hard for Twin already, but now is worse. And with Jund at 10% of the meta I don't see why I should be willing to put time and effort in this deck.
I just 2-0d Jund on XMage. Goyf+Moon is how you beat them. I even won after he resolved Choke. I highly suggest you try the RUG list I posted above -- it's very good.
G1 I Mooned into eventually comboing when i knew the time was right. G2 I just played super conservatively, and he just folded to 3 Goyfs (I kept in the combo tho). Even after he Choked me (baiting the Negate w/ a Lili), I have plenty of non-chokable lands -- Sulfur Falls, Cascade Bluffs, Stomping Ground, Loothouse, basic Mountain, and basic Forest. haha
I basically figured out that you have to live in fear of the stuff that kills you -- don't tap out on T2 for Goyf if they can untap into a Lili. Play as conservatively as possible, and think "What if he plays Goyf/Lili/Confidant after this?" and take the line that is least vulnerable.
Edit: As for my main inspiration behind the deck, it has nothing to do with reviving Twin -- it's to find a good tempo deck that punishes people for tapping out. I loved Twin's style, and I wanted to replicate it.
I don't know if this will help anyone, but I wanted to talk a little bit about how I use Blood Moon and why I mainboard it. I'll give it my best:
Blood Moon is usually not a "one-card combo" unless you're against Tron or 4/5c stuff, and I don't view it as such. I will readily cast Blood Moon onto a board when the opponent has fetchlands and/or basics, mainly because it's there to hamper mana, not turn it off. That said, sometimes Moon does lock the opponent out, but more often than not Moon just restricts their options -- and that's exactly what I like it for. Making them play slower really plays into our tempo plan, and the mana denial fits into a Kiki-combo plan by restricting their possible answers to the combo. Moon is also a great answer to manlands and other "combo" lands (Tron, lands like Academy Ruins and Simic Growth Chamber, etc.). But the way I use it is purely strategic -- it shuts off problematic lands, stifles the opponents' mana development, and fixes our mana to cast Kiki more easily. It also makes Remand and Cryptic (in a UR Kiki list) broken, and turns our Pestermite/Deceivers into Silences stapled to a creature. That's why I play it mainboard -- the only decks where none of this matters are mono-color, non-Tron decks like Soul Sisters and most Goblins lists or against Blood Moon decks (Blue Moon, RW Prison, you get the idea). Note that Naya Burn, Jeskai Control, Grixis Midgrange/Control, and Jund are all R decks that Blood Moon is actually good against.
Edit: Also note that I sometimes cut myself off of G mana when I cast Blood Moon, but I still win those games.
UR Kiki
Twin is dead. Long live Twin.
Decklist
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants
2 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dispel
4 Remand
1 Electrolyze
4 Serum Visions
3 Roast
Lands
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Stomping Ground
3 Steam Vents
3 Wandering Fumarole
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Spellskite
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dispel
1 Roast
2 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Blood Moon
Card Choices
The combo:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Kiki is the namesake of the deck, and the basis of the combo. You will need at least two in order to have a reasonable chance of drawing him, but four can cause problems as he is legendary. Three is the recommended amount, but you can run more or less depending on how much your deck wants to combo off. If you find yourself only wanting one, this is likely the wrong deck for you.
Deciever Exarch: Before the banning of Splinter Twin, Exarch was the main combo creature due to being able to survive lightning bolt. However, since Kiki itself is vulnerable to bolt, you can get away with playing more pestermites. However, exarch is a much better blocker in general than mite. Run 3 or 4.
Pestermite: The other combo piece. Much better as an attacker, and it can block things like signal pest or inkmoth nexus. It is much more vulnerable than Exarch, however. Run 1 or 2.
Simian Spirit Guide: While not strictly part of the combo, SSG does enable a t4 (and potentially t3 if you run enough) kill. Though there are other applications (cryptic blowouts being one of the more common), the main purpose is to help out with comboing off, and so you should adjust it accordingly (ofc, you can just cast it as a 2/2). I recommend 1 copy for 2 Kikis, 2-3 copies for 3 Kikis, and 3-4 copies for 4 Kiki's (though you can certainly do fine without it).
Other options:
Zealous Conscripts: While ZC does have uses (stealing a PW, for example) outside of Exarch and Pestermite, her 5 mana cost makes her very difficult to run. While not impossible (esp in builds with SSG), she is difficult. Run 0.
Other Creatures:
Snapcaster Mage: Enough said. Run 4.
Vendilion Clique: Gives a bit of either hand-fixing for yourself or disruption on your opponent, Clique also is a decent attacker on its lonesome. The legendary status and it not being good in every MU (though it is rarely a bad card) should limiit the amount played. Run 1-0 main and 1-0 SB.
Spellskite: Helps with burn and infect, is a solid blocker in the main, and can redirect that 1 removal spell your opponent is holding up for the combo. However, it doesn't really do anything on its own. Run 0-2 main and 0-1 SB (depending on meta).
Grim Lavamancer: Can win on his own, helps remove annoying creatures, etc. However, it is really bad in multiples and we already use our gy for snappy. Run 0-1 main and 0-1 SB.
Thundermaw Hellkite: Can be accelerated out early with SSG, castable under blood moon, gets rid of souls tokens, and has a very, very good interaction with Kiki. However, it is expensive and doesn't help much with the rest of the gameplan. Better in a meta with Abzan/Mardu/UR Eldrazi. Run 0-1 total in main and SB.
Stormbreath Dragon: Similar to Hellkite, except it dodges path and can be a late-game mana sink. It is smaller, however, and generates less value when copied with Kiki. It is also worse against the various eldrazi builds. Run 0-1 total in main and SB.
Batterskull: Similar to Thundermaw, except it does not get rid of souls and Kiki does nothing but get a death trigger (as he would target the 0/0 germ token). Better in a meta with Jund and Colorless Eldrazi.
Instant/Sorcery:
Serum Visions: Enough said. Run 4.
Lightning Bolt: Enough said. Run 4.
Peek: While you do get a glimpse at the opponent and it is an instant, in the end it is just 1 mana for 1 card. Run 0-1.
Gitaxian Probe: Can be cast for "free", but it is a sorcery and the life loss is relevant. Run 0.
Forked Bolt: Cheap and can be used as burn to close out a game. Run 0-1 if your meta has lots of affinity, run 0 otherwise.
Electrolyze: A bit more expensive than forked bolt but it can interact at instant speed and draws you a card. Run 0-2 depending on meta and personal preferences.
Harvest Pyre: Instant speed and can potentially hit all creatures in modern, but it taxes your yard alot and isn't really any better than roast in the early game (in fact, it is much worse in many situations).
Flame Slash: 1 mana, can hit anything. Downsides are that it is a sorcery and there are more 5 toughness creatures than you would expect. Run 0-2 combined.
Roast: Our removal spell of choice, as it kills almost every creature in modern. The only downsides are that it is a sorcery and that it can't hit fliers. Run 0-4 combined in main and SB.
Terminate: The main reason for a black splash (if you so wish it). It hits everything short of Ulamog, and is better in the Jund matchup as it is able to hit a Raging Ravine. Of course, you will need blood crypt or watery grave to use it. Remember that you cannot (usually) cast this under a blood moon. If you want it, run 2-3 main and a split with roast in the SB (to deal with the aforementioned blood moon scenario).
Dispel: Helps protect your combo and there are exactly 0 matchups you might expect to face where it is a dead card. Run 1-3 main and 0-2 SB.
Spell Pierce: Similar to dispel, except it can stop things like chalice and Liliana. However, it is (close to) dead in the late game. Run 0-1 main.
Swan Song: Gives your opponent a creature, doesn't hit walkers. On the plus side though, it can give you an attacker in late games and if you are comboing off you don't care too much about the creature. Run 0-1 main.
Spell Snare: Stops remand, leak, goyf, confidant, blossom, etc. One of the best counters out there. You don't want too many because it is very limited in what it can target. Run 0-2.
Negate: Spell pierce that costs more but isn't dead late-game. Run 0-1 SB.
Cryptic Command: Does it all. However, it does cost 4 mana and triple blue isn't the easiest thing to achieve (though not particularly difficult unless under moon, either). Run 1-3 main (2 recommended).
Mana Leak: Doesn't draw you a card but it can get rid of a threat permanently. However, it is dead late-game. Run 0-4 main.
Remand: Our preferred counterspell. Draws a card and creates a nice bit of tempo loss for the opponent. Never a dead draw, but you will have to keep refacing doewn threats. Run 0-4 main.
A note on remand/leak: You should run 4 of one or the other, depending on your meta and deck choice. The more you want to combo off, the more you should lean toward remand. If you want a grindy game, play leak. If your meta is full of aggressive decks, leak is better. If it has lots of things like tron or abzan, remand is usually better.
Combo/Interactions
Main Combo: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker+Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite. In case you were not aware of how this combo works, Kiki taps to put a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of either Exarch or Mite. Said token will trigger upon entering the battlefield and untap Kiki-Jiki. Rinse+Repeat for as many hasty tokens as you want.
While playing the deck, whether or not you jam the combo as soon as possible will depend mostly on what your opponent is playing. Slower decks (control, etc) you should focus more on trying to win with Snapcasters etc unless your opponent taps out enough that your countermagic (if you have any) can take care of whatever removal/counterspells you expect them to have. Other interactions that you can pull off are running Thundermaw Hellkite out and tossing out Kiki next turn for 15 (virtually) unblockable damage (which as a bonus takes care of pesky Lingering Souls tokens). This works similarly with Snappy to get lots of extra value out of your spells. However, you cannot get the Vendillion Clique soft-lock of old twin decks out as Kiki specifies non-legends.
General Tips
Unless you are in imminent danger of losing the game, you should hold Kiki in your hand until your opponent either taps out, shows you their hand (with clique, perhaps), or you have enough counterspells held up to keep whatever you expect the opponent to be holding to be invalidated. You want to save remand and cryptic for major spells your opponent plays (tks, lili, etc), and try to use removal fairly aggressively (obviously don't waste it, but don't just sit there and take 8 damage because you wanted to save your roast for a big creature). In addition, do not be afraid to throw snappy out in ambush viper mode to get a nice trade without having something to flashback. If you either know or suspect that your opponent has something nasty in their hand, a good move is to throw down exarch/mite in their upkeep and tap down a mana source. Otherwise, you should either tap a creature before attackers are declared (make sure that you've entered the combat phase though), as a surprise blocker, or at their end of turn to lock down a last mana source and open the way for your combo.
Matchups
*Will be updated to reflect the most important cards in each MU soon, likely later this week*
Colorless Eldrazi: 55/45 us. Combo Importance: High. We have lots of ways to kill their guys or mess with their mana, and they are stuck on dismember when trying to interact with the combo. However, they are very fast and having them get an Eye online will almost certainly be the end of you.
U/R Eldrazi: 50/50. Combo Importance: High. They have more interaction and tend to flood the board very fast, which you will be hard-pressed to deal with.
Jund: 35/65. Combo Importance: High G1 (you probably won't win otherwise without lots of cryptics but it's possible), Low G2+3 (though if they don't respect it G2 you can bring it back in).
Junk: 45/55. Combo Importance: Medium. Your cards are so much better here as they have generally less answers to the combo and a higher propensity to tap out than Jund.
Burn: 45/55. Combo Importance: Low, but you don't really have anything better. They do play much more of a tap out strategy though, so it is entirely possibly to drag the game out if they respect it too much or jam the combo if they don't.
Zoo (Naya): 55/45. Combo Importance: Medium. Again, they like to tap out alot. However, roast, bolt, and snapcaster can (somewhat) easily run them out of creatures early game. However, they are more likely to run path.
Zoo (Shadow): 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium-Low. They will put themselves in a position where you can simply burn them out most games, and tend to empty their hands very very fast. In addition, they have virtually nothing outside of bolt to stop the combo with.
Abzan Company: 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium-High. As one of two played decks (the other being tron with a Karn ultimate) that can beat their infinite life combo, we have a pretty good shot at this one. They have to beat us down every game, which is not especially easy to do.
Kiki-Chord: 50/50. Combo Importance: High. Often times this will come down to who lands gets the combo first, though they are certainly capable of a straight beatdown.
Infect: 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium-High. They play very few interactions with our combo (skite and vines of vastwood being it), and the plethora of counterspells and removal we have give us a pretty clear edge.
Affinity: 65/35. Combo Importance: High. You almost certainly won't win without it, but they have to pretty much sit around every turn and hope we don't have it.
R/G Tron: 55/45. Combo Importance: High. You will not win without the combo. End of story.
Ad Nauseum: 55/45. Combo Importance: High. Beware of Angel's Grace, as it will save them from your combo and often lead right into their own.
Living End: 50/50. Combo Importance: Medium. They can cascade into Living End at instant speed in response to your combo, and dispel will not save you. On the other hand, remanding an end will almost always win you the game.
Grishoalbrand: 60/40. Combo Importance: Medium. They are capable of winning at instant speed, but they lose hard to dispel and have no way to interact outside of the occasionally torpor orb.
Merfolk: 45/55. Combo Importance: High. Kill their lords and do whatever possible to keep Master of Waves off the battlefield, and you have a shot.
UWR Control: 35/65 preboard, 45/55 post. I have not encountered this deck at all in testing, if anyone has their feel on this MU please let me know.
Sideboard Guide
(note: this only covers the cards not mentioned in the maindeck section)
Keranos, God of Storms: Your best bet at winning the Jund matchup, plus he is a house against any sort of slow deck (Moon and Living End come to mind). Run 2.
Ancient Grudge: Good vs Lantern and Affinity, can hit random other artifacts (Aether Vial). However, you will need either Stomping Ground or Breeding Pool to use it effectively. Run 1-2.
Jace, Architect of Thought: Good in the mirror and some Jund/Junk variants, but not great elsewhere. Run 0-1 depending on meta.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Strictly for the mirror and slower Grisel variants. Run 0 unless this deck becomes popular.
Anger of the Gods: Backbreaking against the various Aggro/Company decks out there. Run 2-3 depending on meta.
Blood Moon: Gets you some free wins, and stops both tron and colorless eldrazi virtually in their tracks while it is out. On the other hand, cryptic is basically uncastable with one out. Run 2.
Shatterstorm: If you see alot of affinity/lantern, this can be a nice card to throw in. Otherwise you should leave it out as we tend to have a good MU against both those decks. Run 0.
Rending Volley: Mainly used for the mirror and Esper/Jeskai control. However, those matchups are not very common. Run 0.
Izzet Staticaster: Excellent against Affinity, Infect, and lingering souls/young pyromancer decks. Run 0-1.
Engineered Explosives: Similar to staticaster, but it hits all tokens and can function as a nice sweeper (looking at you, boggles/merfolk). Best used if running 3+ colors. Run 0-1.
Pyroclasm: There are just about 0 situations where this is better than Anger (maybe affinity?). Run 0.
Counterflux: Mostly used in the Amulet Bloom matchup. Also has merits against decks where there is 1 spell that you absolutely cannot let resolve (Scapeshift, Living End, etc). Run 0-1.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: Good against about everything but aggro. However, in almost every instance there is a better card for that matchup. Run 0-1.
Firespout: Can keep your fliers alive but a stomping ground will allow both aspects to be cast. Better in a meta with lots of token decks (hitting only fliers) or if you run Pia/Kiran. Run 0-2 depending on meta and personal preference.
Mizzium Skin: Stops things like Abrupt Decay or Rending Volley. Gets better depending on how much you want to combo off. Run 0-2.
Threads of Disloyalty: Good against something like goyf. Run 0-1.
Sower of Temptation: Similar to threads, but better against Junk (and it can hit things like rhino too) as they don't use bolt. Run 0-1.
Crumble to Dust: Mainly for use in the tron and scapeshift MU's. Can be brought in against eldrazi as well. Run 0-1 depending on meta.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: Excellent against midrange decks (and can beat lantern under a bridge, too). However, you will have to alter your manabase. Run 0-1, and only if you use terminate MD.
See Also
While there do not appear to be any UR Kiki articles, Pascal Maynard posted series of articles on UR Twin, which can be found on the Channel Fireball website.
Primers
4C Walkers
3x Sulfur Falls
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
6x Island
1x Mountain
Creatures (14)
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Deceiver Exarch
2x Pestermite
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
1x Izzet Charm
4x Remand
2x Cryptic Command
Card Advantage (10)
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancestral Vision
3x Blood Moon
1x Burst Lighting
2x Dispel
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Negate
2x Roast
1x Spellskite
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Counterflux
1x Batterskull
1x Keranos, God of Storms
After playing the list, a few things became glaringly obvious to me:
Some cards that were rather underwhelming tonight: Cryptic and Spellskite.
Cards that overperformed: AV, Keranos, and Ancient Grudge (it singlehandedly makes the Tezzeraor match in our favor)
Well, that's it for now. I'll probably be testing this list further on XMage, and maybe take it for a spin next Sat. for Modern.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
IMO, the manabase can't support white without folding to Blood Moon. Plus, Moon is also the biggest reason to play straight UR -- it gives you just as many free wins as having the combo does (well, used to -- Kiki is much easier to interact with than Twin). As for Fae v. traditional Twin, I fall on the side of Twin -- I'm not sure why tho. Last night, I found that the fact Deceiver can block most anything is very much a boon. Sprite, Mite, Clique, Snap, etc., can't do that.
I'll have to test with a Fae-style list and see what I find out.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I can see why you might have a poor Control matchup: you don run either AV or Moon. Moon is great against most any 3c deck, and is enough to win against some control decks on its own. You can easily tempo out your opponents when you have AV, because it lets you set the pace of the game around it to make a never-ending flow of cards. If your opponent wants to fight over AV, it's an uphill battle since you have all of your mana at the ready and can tap out safely.
My testing shows that the best sequence against a control deck is to cast a Pestermite/Deceiver on their end step with AV on one -- especially with a Moon in hand. This allows you to force a creature through, fight over AV, and if they try to stop any of it, you jam a Moon into their tapped out mana.
Edit: to address your points, I agree that Simian doesn't fit, but I have to test Exarch v Mite. I think the extra power certainly matters, but I don't want the deck to fall over against decks with Bolt or Kommand. Plus, Exarch also serves a defensive purpose.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I can see pact being very good g1 for your list. I think that a list maining Blood Moon and/or AV doesn't need pact since they have other ways to apply pressure. Especially an AV list has plenty of feul to keep ahead without trying to combo.
I agree that Serum is more important in UR Kiki than AV -- I'm running 4 Serums too. I just think that AV is also very good, even only running 3. AV shores up midrange and control matchups, so I run both. Honestly, I thought the card would be terrible, but I just tried it out without second guessing and was very impressed at how well it fits into our game plan. Or at least, a tempo gameplan. My list is more tempo-oriented than combo-oriented.
When I was referencing Moon, I meant in G1 before sideboarding. You have them post board, but the matchup changes entirely after sideboard. For example, I typically board away from the combo against control; which changes priorities again.
You're right that the combo is weak to bolt already, so Mite v Exarch is unimportant with the combo in mind. However, outside of the combo, Mite dying to Shock effects certainly matters. Against any Snap-Bolt deck, it'll be very hard to keep up pressure if all your creatures die to most anything. I think that leaning on Exarch more lets you ensure you have a creature on board at all times -- it's also a combo piece, which translates to having the threat of combo at all times. If you do want to lean on Mite, I think mainboard Dispels are a must. [Edit: That said, I'll be testing 3 Mite, 3 Exarch going forward instead of 2:4. Vendilion Clique helps a lot too.]
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
3x Sulfur Falls
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
6x Island
1x Mountain
Creatures (14)
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Deceiver Exarch
3x Pestermite
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
1x Izzet Charm
4x Remand
2x Cryptic Command
Card Advantage (10)
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancestral Vision
3x Blood Moon
1x Burst Lighting
2x Dispel
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Negate
2x Roast
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Counterflux
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Keranos, God of Storms
This is my list. Since I'm not sure an agreed upon "stock list" really exists yet, I don't really know what I "cut" to fit in other cards.
As far as pressure is concerned, Exarch does count. Even if it's just 1 point of damage, it adds up -- especially with multiple Exarchs in play. Having an Exarch out also provides a possibily of combo that makes the opponent play differently -- whether they have the Bolt or not, they must play around Kiki+protection since you have the other required parts in play. It's the difference of a possible 3 card combo in hand (Kiki/Deceiver/Dispel, which is more unlikely) to a possible 2 card combo in hand (Kiki/Dispel in hand, Deceiver on board).
AV is slow, but it does help you get out from under Lili oppression or a bunch of early discard spells. Against control, you have all the time in the world to resolve AV, and better ways to capitalize on Remanding their AV's (the combat step). Regardless, not playing AV against a deck that plays attrition isn't going to help.
Edit: The only decks that Blood Moon is dead against are UR Delver and Blue Moon. It's basically never a dead card, but even when it is you have loothouse. Moon isn't great against Burn, but it still cuts off Helix, Boros Charm, and Atarka's Command.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Not the person you asked, but the reason i run AV is that it comes off suspend on our critical turn. A t4 mite + av about to come off suspend is essentially attacking your opponent from three separate angles, it makes it extremely easy for your opponent to make a mistake, and sometimes there just is no correct choice.
Im incredibly sick of hearing about how AV is bad vs aggressive decks, if your consistently dying vs aggro before t5 as a bolt snap bolt deck, your bad at magic, go play bogles or something. Sure, i typically cut the card ppst board just to have more removal, but i usually trimmed serum visions anyway in these matchups, since scrying 2 isnt what you want to be doing in the early turns vs burn/affinity
Its been 50/50 as a top deck, sometimes i draw it turn 6 when i needed an answer, sometimes i draw it turn 6 and it comes off suspend 4 turns later vs elves and helps me restabilize after they rebuilt.
As for fumarole, i dont like my lands entering tapped in this deck and i dont like my lands dying to bolt. I really wish they made this land a 4/1 that turned into a 1/4
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I'm running 3 AV's because you don't really need more and the deck doesn't really have room for the 4th. It's been pretty bad against aggro in general, but when you draw it early and have Bolt in hand, the likelihood is that it's going to resolve -- but that gets into the realm of winmore. My win percentage against aggro has been directly proportional to the number of Bolts/Burst Lightning, Snappys, and Deceivers I draw, and honestly it's been pretty good. I beat UR Delver last Saturday in my matches. As far as topdecks go, AV is never a bad draw, per se. Sometimes it doesn't do anything, but you suspend it anyways and stall into it and it wins the game. Sometimes you suspend it and draw nothing relevant and die -- you were going to lose that game anyways. And sometimes you draw it with plenty of action, and you suspend it in case something goes wrong, or you lean on it to bait out counter or something. Basically, when it's good it's very good, but when it's bad it doesn't really matter.
I'm going to be straight with you tho about BGx -- I've never played a match with UR Kiki against them (I literally started testing it for fun on XMage a week and a half ago, played it Friday to see how it would do and seriously spike my local tournament. Now, I played Twin a lot before it was banned and have some experience with Jeskai Kiki-Angel; but I haven't put too many games in with this deck. I saw how well it performed, decided to really invest into the deck, and posted the semi-report above. So, in short, my speculation on BGx and AV is just that -- speculation.
I don't run Electrolyze because I'm not grindy, I'm tempoey. 3 mana for a shock, no matter whether it draws or not, is too much of a tempo loss for me. I don't like Fumarole because it makes you tap out, and only does 1 damage at all times unless you expose it to Bolt.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Thanks for the input! If you have a list you're playing (or would play) then please post it! All the input we can get is appreciated.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
How bout this -- when I get a chance, I'll run back your exact 75 a few times on XMage. That way, I can appreciate all the moving parts at once. After all, there's more to a deck than simple card choices.
Also, I can't believe I forgot this: Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the input!
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-kikimite/
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Mana leak is great in the deck, sometimes you just need something gone.
Harvest pyre helps the bgx matchup a ton, it kills goyfs and shrinks the future ones
Young pyromancer is my current experiment, testing has been 50/50
Either way, none of these cards are replacing serum visions. Only AV is replacing serum visions.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I would never cut Serum for any reason -- the card is too damn good! Even for AV, I think you want to max out on Serum first since it gives you information immediately when you cast it. AV is really just a draw spell, but Serum is selection, and this deck needs the selection more -- we need the right mix of combo pieces, control, and aggressive creatures in every game.
Noone else mentioned it, bfrie, but 4 Steam Vents is too much. I'd drop at least one for another basic Island, and I highly suggest fitting in a Breeding Pool to play Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.
As for Harvest Pyre, I'm not sure it's better than something like Roast. I know instant speed is important, but delving away your graveyard is just too suspect with 4 Snapcasters in the deck, and some people run things like Grim Lavamancer too. I don't mind Mana Leak all that much, and I actually almost included it in my list, but I just felt like other cards were more necessary. Young Pyro seems a little weird, but I could see it working out -- it seems way too aggressive on the surface, but it's great at creating chump blockers for a more controlling role and it also generates massive tempo. In a deck that already tries to dilute Lightning Bolt's targets, another x/1 won't hurt.
Speaking of diluting Bolts, I've tested a bit of KikiMite (i.e., no Deceivers) and I must say I've noticed a difference. Maybe we don't want 4 Deceivers, but I definitely want to play at least 2, since it's defensive capabilities and the fact that it's another combo piece both matter -- as I suspected, without them it's hard to keep a stable board presence (no matter how small). I'm going to start testing the 3/3 split again, tho I'm not sure what I'll cut -- I haven't see enough of Electrolyze at this point to make a definitive opinion.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I actually have never been a fan of serum visions. One day i may put them back in, but i have not missed them at all since i cut them. They always felt extremely clunky, and are terrible with fethclands.
Less than 4 steam vents is a mistake. I run a total of 9 red producing lands, of which 4 can be fetched. I need triple red, so sometimes as little as a single stone rain effect in one game can end that. If a had scalding tarns for the basic mountains i would agree with you however.
Again, running a breeding pool for grudge means cutting on red producing lands, something that is far too difficult. With Tarns and Misty's i would for sure run a stomping ground.
As far as harvest pyre is concerned, ive easily put in 100 matches with the card and would never cut it without splashing black for terminate. Please, do your own testing with the card before judging it. We are a deck very good at filling out our own yard and pyre has never caused issues with snapcaster just as delve creatures work fine in grixis. The card is far too good against goyf, and there is a lot of bgx in my meta. I would go down to 2 kiki before i would cut this card
Edit; young pyromancer has been medium so far. Good against control and aggro and combo , bad against midrange and tron and thalia decks
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
You assume I haven't played with Harvest Pyre before...
Well, I have. I played it in Twin way before most people even knew Pyre existed. Yes, it's a fine card; that said, I think it has too much of a non-bo with Snapcaster. About going up to 2, I always hated them in multiples because you can basically never Snap them back, and the second is always far worse than the first -- typically the second only does ~3 damage, which isn't enough to do much work against BGx (if only it could hit Lili, then I'd change my mind).
IMO, Roast is very similar to Pyre, except that it always does the same thing (kills x/5's) without interfering with the graveyard, which makes it much more consistent. Plus, you can always snap back Roast and get full value from it. If you need the effect at instant speed or against flyers, play 1 Pyre. If not, play Roast.
About Serum, I guess it's your call, but I'm very sure that cutting it is a mistake. It's not even that bad with fetches -- fetch them away first, then Serum. If you can, just don't fetch until you have to. Still, fetching away stuff kept with Serum isn't the end of the world, and it's not really that much lost "value". In fact, it goes both ways -- I have often put a medium card on top 2nd with Serum so that I could fetch it away if i wanted to.
With the mana base, you're right -- I overlooked the differences necessitated by having non-R fetches. I'll leave that to you. But you could still splash a Pool in the place of an Island to keep the red sources.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I agree that two is too many. Thats why i run one.
And as for serum, as i said someday it might find its way back, but i just dont like it
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
3x Sulfur Falls
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Breeding Pool
4x Island
1x Forest
1x Mountain
Creatures (17)
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Deceiver Exarch
2x Bounding Krasis
4x Pestermite
2x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Snare
1x Roast
1x Izzet Charm
4x Remand
2x Cryptic Command
Card Advantage (7)
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancestral Vision
1x Burst Lighting
2x Dispel
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Negate
1x Roast
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I'm not a huge GDD fan in the Keranos slot -- Keranos is meant to literaly take over the game by itself, and GDD just doesn't do that very well without a little help. The best thing it can hit is AV, but that's a one-time thing. Keranos is a long-term investment, but given time it WILL end the game unanswered. Then again, maybe it's because my lists aren't as "all in" as the ones you prefer (not a bad thing, but just personal preference) -- I can almost never get a Kiki to stick for long in any of my games, but when I do it always wins because they're 1) tapped out to deal with other things, 2) locked out by Blood Moon with no relevant interaction, or 3) I got info from a Clique and nabbed their only answer. So, Kiki'ing a GDD isn't realistic for me, and Keranos is more likely to stick around to do what he does.
So, after testing the RUG list a little, I find I'm not quite comfortable with it. Much like I was with Twin, I just find 2 colors to be simple and sweet. Goyf has been very good, don't get me wrong -- especially with the Kiki plan instead of a Twin plan, the extra creature left over if they deal with Kiki is much more potent with a threat like Goyf to slaughter them with assistance from chip-damage. Despite that, I like being able to turtle up behind a Blood Moon, flash a Kiki, and watch them scoop it up. Maybe I'll test a typical UR list in my style, but jam 4 Goyfs in there as my only green cards. Krasis just doesn't stand up very well to Mite and Deceiver, which provide the perfect duo of offense/defense.
Edit: I'm just whining because I want my mainboard Blood Moons back.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I've found Keranos as an important out to Ensnaring Bridge decks, for what it's worth. Still, I've noticed that he's not very good in BGx matches when you're behind, so idk. Btw, I played against Jund on XMage with UR Kiki for the first time today (with RUG) and got 2-0d -- even when I resolved Keranos G2. Not a good matchup at all.
Welp, I'm back on UR. Personally, I'm not surprised -- I never got on board with TarmoTwin either. But yeah, I value mainboard Moons way too much to go cutting them for Tarmogoyf (essentially). I agree that leaning on Mite is better for now, but some amount of Deceivers are necessary since there are a few decks that run both Kolaghan's Command and Bolt, namely Grixis Midrange/Control and Jund. Without any non-x/1 creatures, these matchups seem miserable. Against UR Moon or Scapeshift, for example, you can play around Bolt. But against Jund/Grixis, you must resolve Moon for any of the creatures to stick -- and even still, they die on the spot if your opponent has a swamp.
Also, after testing, I really think I want the 4th AV too -- you want it at literally all stages of the game, and especially T1. I'm not sold on Electrolyze, but it seems like a must against Lingering Souls, which is hard to deal with without a huge beater like Goyf. Maybe GDD has more merit than I though (to stomp right though Souls), but I hate that it's another clunky 5-mana sorcery.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I guess the question you have to ask is, if your splashing white, are you not better off with nahiri?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
3x Sulfur Falls
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Breeding Pool
4x Island
1x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Deceiver Exarch
4x Pestermite
3x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Counters/Removal (10)
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Snare
1x Izzet Charm
4x Remand
Card Advantage (10)
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancestral Vision
3x Blood Moon
1x Burst Lighting
2x Dispel
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Negate
2x Roast
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Keranos, God of Storms
Interesting things of note:
To answer the obvious question, here's why I'm splashing a whole color literally just for Goyf (other than obvious stuff like "it draws out removal"): it applies a lot of pressure, so we can play around Wraths and 2-for-1's really easily, and it lets us attack through tokens/chump blockers.
Still not sure how to solve the BGx matchup, but T3 Moon seems good. I do think you want to keep in the combo, tho (at least with Moon in the deck). What are everyone's sb plans against Jund and Abzan? Jund is much worse for us than Abzan, I would think. That whole Kommand+Bolt thing.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I just 2-0d Jund on XMage. Goyf+Moon is how you beat them. I even won after he resolved Choke. I highly suggest you try the RUG list I posted above -- it's very good.
G1 I Mooned into eventually comboing when i knew the time was right. G2 I just played super conservatively, and he just folded to 3 Goyfs (I kept in the combo tho). Even after he Choked me (baiting the Negate w/ a Lili), I have plenty of non-chokable lands -- Sulfur Falls, Cascade Bluffs, Stomping Ground, Loothouse, basic Mountain, and basic Forest. haha
I basically figured out that you have to live in fear of the stuff that kills you -- don't tap out on T2 for Goyf if they can untap into a Lili. Play as conservatively as possible, and think "What if he plays Goyf/Lili/Confidant after this?" and take the line that is least vulnerable.
Edit: As for my main inspiration behind the deck, it has nothing to do with reviving Twin -- it's to find a good tempo deck that punishes people for tapping out. I loved Twin's style, and I wanted to replicate it.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Blood Moon is usually not a "one-card combo" unless you're against Tron or 4/5c stuff, and I don't view it as such. I will readily cast Blood Moon onto a board when the opponent has fetchlands and/or basics, mainly because it's there to hamper mana, not turn it off. That said, sometimes Moon does lock the opponent out, but more often than not Moon just restricts their options -- and that's exactly what I like it for. Making them play slower really plays into our tempo plan, and the mana denial fits into a Kiki-combo plan by restricting their possible answers to the combo. Moon is also a great answer to manlands and other "combo" lands (Tron, lands like Academy Ruins and Simic Growth Chamber, etc.). But the way I use it is purely strategic -- it shuts off problematic lands, stifles the opponents' mana development, and fixes our mana to cast Kiki more easily. It also makes Remand and Cryptic (in a UR Kiki list) broken, and turns our Pestermite/Deceivers into Silences stapled to a creature. That's why I play it mainboard -- the only decks where none of this matters are mono-color, non-Tron decks like Soul Sisters and most Goblins lists or against Blood Moon decks (Blue Moon, RW Prison, you get the idea). Note that Naya Burn, Jeskai Control, Grixis Midgrange/Control, and Jund are all R decks that Blood Moon is actually good against.
Edit: Also note that I sometimes cut myself off of G mana when I cast Blood Moon, but I still win those games.
Hopefully this helps.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Ended up making day 2 with a RUg build of the deck, although I posted my write up in the RUG midrange thread.
Would you mind copypasta'ing the report here?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.