Removing the Serum Visions in my build was WAY too greedy and I really missed the velocity. I also think you guys are right about the vapor snags - when they're great they are amazing but there are too many times when I want to see anything else - we still need a small amount of target spells to deal with Affinity/Infect (and whatever else) and I feel like we might as well go with Dismember. We take no damage from our manabase so I think we can afford it a little bit.
Also, I've now raced burn so many times and I think I want Batterskulls over wurmcoil in the main. The difference between 5 and 6 mana is pretty huge.
I feel like these numbers are a lot tighter than my last build was. Will this change before I actually get to the GP? Probably.
How did your modern night go?
I'm not sold that this deck needs velocity, but if it did Ancestral Vision should probably be the one drop of choice.
I wonder at this point if we are running dismember as removal with little downside due to our painfree mana base, how close we are to just splashing fetches and island-duals into the main for better removal and sideboard options? Like a white splash for example gives us 4 hallowed fountain 4 praerie 4 flooded in place of 12 islands, lose 4 islands as a whole but effectively in play the number will be the same. But then we can run things like supreme verdict and path main, and get sideboard cards like kor forewalker, timely reinforcements, rest in peace, leyline, stony silence?
I mean even red for keranos as a finisher and bolt seems like it will have little downside at this point...
I had hoped it really wouldn't come to that sort of a solution but there is really almost no reason to stay mono blue. Even splashing red ever so lightly for just 4 bolts would seem like all upside as it helps the affinity/infect problem AND gives us reach.
The SV are less about velocity and more to help smooth draws out. Being reliant on pure card draw to hit land drops has not felt great.
Modern night was dumb. I played against a burn player who was main decking (!!!) Exquisite Firecraft and then played against Storm who double turn three'd me through remands. Unreal. I then had a Bye and my 4th round opponent left. Completely uneventful.
Not sure what the correct splash colour is, but snapcaster definitely gets much better with red to make it proactive. I think red for aggression and white for further control; but white definitely has the stronger side board options.
Sucks about your modern night. Hopefully the GP doesnt turn out similar
Not sure what the correct splash colour is, but snapcaster definitely gets much better with red to make it proactive. I think red for aggression and white for further control; but white definitely has the stronger side board options.
Sucks about your modern night. Hopefully the GP doesnt turn out similar
It's ok. I just wanted some practice last night. The Storm player was laughing at how absurd it was and I don't think I'm going to be seeing any maindecked Firecrafts at the Gp - but hey, who knows. This format is straight up wacky.
White gets tricky because you rely so hard on path.. but it's a BAD nonbo with the taxing countermagic. I love playing UW control, but I've never liked the traditional lists with wall of omens and resto, etc. I just feel like there has to be a better way. I love this shell because it feels 'light' in it's control but in reality if you have any control at all the opponent is almost completely locked out. Most control decks when they establish control tend to feel so.. clunky. Like every win was an accident. I don't know - just spitballin'.
Perhaps black then? Gives answers to planeswalkers and kill spells that don't stop the tax effects? Can still run sweepers in black too
We can even run teachings in black
UB teachings sounds pretttttty cool to me (it's fun to play in Pauper). Could be worth exploring for sure. You also get upgraded Negates in the form of Countersquall. Hmmm......
Perhaps black then? Gives answers to planeswalkers and kill spells that don't stop the tax effects? Can still run sweepers in black too
We can even run teachings in black
UB teachings sounds pretttttty cool to me (it's fun to play in Pauper). Could be worth exploring for sure. You also get upgraded Negates in the form of Countersquall. Hmmm......
Our deck is like almost 100% instants anyway, could be interesting. Well countersquall yeah, but also things like slaughter pact, damnation, ashiok as a non-creature wincon, other semi wipes like drown in sorrow, all the black kill spellsn, we can even run discard
Consume the Meek as the boardwipe if we needed the extra synergy with teachings (otherwise Damnation is usually better). Teachings also searches up Vendilion Clique, Teferi and Snapcaster Mage since those all have flash and there's probably a couple of other very playable flash threats (Plumeveil?)
EDIT: And now I really want to make Teachings work too... Maybe something to work on!
Aside from instants, of which there are loads, (playable) flash cards we can tutor with teachings include Snapcaster Mage, Teferi, Spellstutter Sprite (maybe?), Notion Thief (sideboard maybe), Vendilion Clique and Venser, Shaper Savant.
Forbidden Alchemy to help dig and combos with all the flashback/snapcaster mages/rune snag... Off to the brewery!
Avatar in homage to my friend's elk tribal deck. Turn 2 Wetland Sambar, turn 3 Descendants' Path, turn 4 upkeep with the descendants' path trigger on the stack, Brainstorm putting Axebane Stag on top to be freshly windmill slammed into play by Descendants' Path. Too op for me.
Consume the Meek as the boardwipe if we needed the extra synergy with teachings (otherwise Damnation is usually better). Teachings also searches up Vendilion Clique, Teferi and Snapcaster Mage since those all have flash and there's probably a couple of other very playable flash threats (Plumeveil?)
EDIT: And now I really want to make Teachings work too... Maybe something to work on!
Aside from instants, of which there are loads, (playable) flash cards we can tutor with teachings include Snapcaster Mage, Teferi, Spellstutter Sprite (maybe?), Notion Thief (sideboard maybe), Vendilion Clique and Venser, Shaper Savant.
Forbidden Alchemy to help dig and combos with all the flashback/snapcaster mages/rune snag... Off to the brewery!
Yup seems pretty decent. I changed my build to UW last night. Used two dragonlord oujtai as finishers with maindeck supreme verdicts, paths and some colonnades. Went 3-1 losing a close finals to Kiki Chord. Felt pretty solid and it was nice to have a finisher that had protection (sort of) but also gave me significant card advantage. Side board was so much better with the white splash as well, running 3 timely, 2 stony, 1 wrath, 2 rest in peace was quite good.
Solid stuff! I'm still on mono blue for now until I figure out some janky teachings brew, also went 3-1 beating Thoptersword, monoblack devotion, Kikichord and losing 2-1 to the die roll Burn in the last round. We should probably get a whole matchups thing going so people looking to pick up the deck can see what the good and the bad matchups for this deck are - my build absolutely loves facing Kikichord - I'd say 80% of the games where I'm on the play my opponent often doesn't resolve a spell in the first 5-6 turns and it's glorious. Burn really feels like a coin flip - winning the dice roll gives you access to solid countermagic on their turn 2 (barring a good spell snare) in games 1 AND 3 and I usually win 2-1 but if you lose the roll, I feel like I can only win game 2 unless my opponent has a poor creatureless draw in one of the other games. I guess that's burn for you.
Have to say, Miren, the moaning well was mvp yesterday - being able to sacrifice stolen creatures and then untap your shackles and steal something else is super helpful when the opponent is trying to go wide to get around your one shackles'd creature. Wurmcoil was also very good at being big and lifelinky and laughing at removal (well ok not path but everything else)
I agree with you that white gets a much much better sideboard! I changed my 2 Surgical extractions to Tormod's Crypt for today and it seemed a lot better even though they didn't get much use (brought them in vs monoblack against Relentless Dead and Geralf's Messenger and they did work)
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Back to extra turns, at long last!
Avatar in homage to my friend's elk tribal deck. Turn 2 Wetland Sambar, turn 3 Descendants' Path, turn 4 upkeep with the descendants' path trigger on the stack, Brainstorm putting Axebane Stag on top to be freshly windmill slammed into play by Descendants' Path. Too op for me.
Solid stuff! I'm still on mono blue for now until I figure out some janky teachings brew, also went 3-1 beating Thoptersword, monoblack devotion, Kikichord and losing 2-1 to the die roll Burn in the last round. We should probably get a whole matchups thing going so people looking to pick up the deck can see what the good and the bad matchups for this deck are - my build absolutely loves facing Kikichord - I'd say 80% of the games where I'm on the play my opponent often doesn't resolve a spell in the first 5-6 turns and it's glorious. Burn really feels like a coin flip - winning the dice roll gives you access to solid countermagic on their turn 2 (barring a good spell snare) in games 1 AND 3 and I usually win 2-1 but if you lose the roll, I feel like I can only win game 2 unless my opponent has a poor creatureless draw in one of the other games. I guess that's burn for you.
Have to say, Miren, the moaning well was mvp yesterday - being able to sacrifice stolen creatures and then untap your shackles and steal something else is super helpful when the opponent is trying to go wide to get around your one shackles'd creature. Wurmcoil was also very good at being big and lifelinky and laughing at removal (well ok not path but everything else)
I agree with you that white gets a much much better sideboard! I changed my 2 Surgical extractions to Tormod's Crypt for today and it seemed a lot better even though they didn't get much use (brought them in vs monoblack against Relentless Dead and Geralf's Messenger and they did work)
Well - I had a ton of fun if that counts for anything and had plenty of people interested in what I was doing, but through some punts and some bad luck I went 1-4. Here's a really quick writeup.
Round 1 against Grixis (w/Jace) - wasn't particularly close. He used 'fall' on me twice and had dispels for my spell snares which was such a ridiculous blowout.
Round 2 - Infect - I completely blow them out and found timely answers for everything. Wipe Away was so good I thought my opponent was going to cry (they were ready with Vines and spell pierces and it just didn't matter).
Round 3 - 4 color abzan brew thing - He was playing Abzan splashing blue for Geist - We trade in games 1 and 2 (in game 2 I Bribery'd a Sigarda out of his deck and equipped it with a batterskull - GG!) and I punt ridiculously hard in game 3 when I tap out for a Wurmcoil completely forgetting he's holding a Resto and I'm at 3 life. Woof.
Round 4 - Abzan - Super grindy games in games 1 and 2. Game 1 I can't answer a Lily. Game 2 he can't answer a Crucible and I Tec/GQ ALL of his lands and steal his Goyf to win. Game 3 he keeps a TRIPLE Abrupt Decay hand and even though I recur my Shackles THREE times it doesn't matter as I can't keep him off threats AND fight through the Decays (he ends up finding the fourth). Sigh.
Round 5 - Naya Zoo/Burn - At this point I'm still thinking things can possibly turn around - opponent wins the die roll - turn 1 goblin guide go. Turn 2 double swiftspear mutagenic. Turn 3 Atarka's. CHRIST. Post sideboard it's a similar story and he has the nuts. So it goes.
I should have practiced more with the actual list I registered as I kept changing things right up to the GP but I still had a bunch of fun, met cool people, watched friends do really well, and I can't wait to do it some more. Will I continue to play mono Blue? I don't think so - the problems we discussed with the deck are real (no real removal, no way to have a proactive threat) and I DO think that splashing is the way to go. In looking at everything I think I'm just going to play Faeries - it's doing almost everything we are (instants, flash threats, counters) but you also get to be proactive and play Bitterblossoms and Mistbind Cliques and all of that fun stuff. Seems like a logical next step for anyone wanting to play like we are here but with a bit more power and diversity in the gameplans. It was a fun experiment but having no way to proactively interact with the opponent is just not good right now.
I'm still going to jam the deck until I get all of the pieces for Fae though so I'll keep posting as long as I'm rocking four cryptics. BOOM!
Before you give in, maybe you should try a build with a little higher velocity and Thing in the Ice?
It can certainly give you a little early action and creates a fun little game within the game.
I've currently got a playset of Things sleeved up but I think they just work better with bolts or Gitaxian probes. The card is VERY good in the right shells but unfortunately it doesn't really help us turn the corner like we need to in this deck.
But, heck, I've got nothing to lose. I'll try it out tonight. Yolo.
Sucks that the GP didnt go so well. I think a splash is definitely where we want to be. I'm not sure if Faeries is the logical transition for what we are doing, but I respect your choices.
Try this deck out splashing red for bolts, thing in the ice and forked/electrolyze. Fixes a lot of the issues and can also main deck anger which is super relevant.
Sucks that the GP didnt go so well. I think a splash is definitely where we want to be. I'm not sure if Faeries is the logical transition for what we are doing, but I respect your choices.
Try this deck out splashing red for bolts, thing in the ice and forked/electrolyze. Fixes a lot of the issues and can also main deck anger which is super relevant.
It's ok - I learned a ton.
If I was going to keep jamming with this style build this is definitely where I'd go with it, and when I get Tarns I might just do that. The 3/4 cards you listed would all be great as well as a Keranos/Chandra, Flamecaller in the side against the other control decks and Izzet Staticaster for it's ridiculous amount of utility. This deck still DEFINITELY has a ton of potential, but I think it does need some tools from one of the other colors to really get there.
It's a VERY frustrating thing to stabilize, have your opponent at one life, lose your one threat you were protecting, and feel hopeless as that 1 life might as well be 20 unless you find something else. Being able to run bolt/electrolyze changes that immediately.
Sucks that the GP didnt go so well. I think a splash is definitely where we want to be. I'm not sure if Faeries is the logical transition for what we are doing, but I respect your choices.
Try this deck out splashing red for bolts, thing in the ice and forked/electrolyze. Fixes a lot of the issues and can also main deck anger which is super relevant.
It's ok - I learned a ton.
If I was going to keep jamming with this style build this is definitely where I'd go with it, and when I get Tarns I might just do that. The 3/4 cards you listed would all be great as well as a Keranos/Chandra, Flamecaller in the side against the other control decks and Izzet Staticaster for it's ridiculous amount of utility. This deck still DEFINITELY has a ton of potential, but I think it does need some tools from one of the other colors to really get there.
It's a VERY frustrating thing to stabilize, have your opponent at one life, lose your one threat you were protecting, and feel hopeless as that 1 life might as well be 20 unless you find something else. Being able to run bolt/electrolyze changes that immediately.
Yeah I have double keranos in my build. It's pretty great that generally it can't be removed.
I've had similar feelings about the deck but it hasn't been performing badly for me in the events I've played; curiously, did you ever try my plumeveil build? It's had a decent showing at basically every event I've played so far.
I don't know if this deck is where I want to end up, but jamming 4 cryptics feels so sweet.
Hey guys, I finally jumped on the forum after reading for a while. I saw the deck on MTGGoldfish and instantly fell in love. I used to play UB Psychatog back in the day, and this is right up my alley.
First, I wanted to say that I am on the Plumeveil over Snapcaster team. I feel like, while Snap is great in all ways with this deck, the one thing that hurts is it's inability to deal with things when they slip through the cracks. If it's a creature, you DO have Shackles (which is a big theme here), but sometimes you don't have the luxury of dropping the Shackles on turn 3 and using it on turn 4. I Don't want to be using Snap as an Ambush Viper, just to get more uses from my counterspells. So, dropping a 4/4 flash flyer is more my style than the 2/1 that will get you another spell.
I was hoping that some people would post their lists that are running with Plumeveils so I can see what was change from the original list.
Some key things I've been working out on paper before I posted this:
Card Draw
First, the original deck lacked card draw. Yes, you got the cantrip effects off of Cryptic and Remand, and you got some incremental draws off of Confirm Suspicians, but I've run into games where I've exhausted my counterspells and the opponent just topdecks a bomb and I lose, or they sneak a card in like BoB or Painful Truths and now start playing more threats than I have counters. I also searched Gatherer for Card Draw in blue, and honestly, like Jace's Ingenuity the most. The way I look at it is this: Think Twice gets you 2 cards for 3UU. Yes, you can break it up, but you're just replacing one card for another the first time, and spending 3 to net you a card the second time. 5 mana, 2 cards. Blue Sun's Zenith costs 1UUU to get 1 card. 2UUU to get 2 cards. 3UUU to get three. Yes, it does shuffle back into the library, but only starts really being good at 6+ mana. Jace's Ingenuity is always 5 mana (which does suck), but at instant speed, gets you 3 cards all the time. 5 mana, 3 cards. Opportunity is 4UU for 4 cards, which puts it in the Blue Sun category, where it only starts helping in the late game. 1 mana less, for 1 card less, but will help restock the hand seems the best. I wanna test some number of these in the main.
Maindeck Removal
I know everyone is talking about Echoing Truth and Wipe Away being better than Cyclonic Rift, but I actually thing Rift is better for the maindeck. At it's minimum, you get a Boomerang (other than lands). Removal is hard for blue, but this returns anything, including cards like Stony Silence and fast walkers like Liliana. The thing I like more than that, is that it is also a maindeck option for sweep. It can be used early game to remove a threat, or can be used as a sweep spell in the late game. It is also a nice card with Shackles, as it doesn't bounce a stolen creature. I know a lot of you are putting the sweepers in the main (Engulf the Shore, Aetherize, or otherwise), but if you're up against a control or combo deck, these are dead cards in the deck. Rift can be removal of ANY permanent, and functions also as a Sweeper if need be. Now, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away are great options in different situations, but both only remove one target. Rift has the option to do exactly that, or to also have a second function later in the game.
Sideboard Sweepers
As for sweep in the side. I really am having a problem deciding on Engulf the Shore or ... Wait for it ... Aetherspouts. I know, crazy right? I played a lot with this card while it was in standard, when no one else did. The fact that it PUTS THE CREATURES ON TOP / BOTTOM OF THE OPP 'S LIBRARY is they key point i'm considering. Yes, Engulf costs less, and in most cases where you want to get rid of a lot of creatures, this is preferred. In cases like Elves, where half of their creatures aren't attacking, and are only there to buff and produce mana, Engulf is clearly better because it returns everything. What I am thinking is this, other than Affinity (where Hurkyl's Recall is preferred anyway), most decks are going to run into at least 3-4 counters before you have the mana to sweep, even with Engulf. Between that, Shackles, and Plumeveil (which is the build I want to focus on), I'm not sure how wide they'll be anyway. The fact that Aetherspouts actually sweeps the board, rather than returning to hand, not only slows them down, but it effectively removes threats, rather than 'fogging' them.
Finishers
I know a lot of people are condemning Guile as being the worst choice for a finisher. I'm also in agreement with that. If you take out Guile, you can also take out Pacts (technically), because the interaction is what makes Pact better than most other counterspells for that scenario. What is the most preferred finisher right now? I am not a huge fan of running with Artifact finishers like Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine, only because artifact hate is pretty rampant throughout Modern. I'm not saying that these two choices are bad, only saying that I prefer to find a blue finisher for my deck. Right now, I'm debating on Pearl Lake Ancient, and Sphinx of the Final Word. One can be cast instant speed, can't be countered, and can save itself (at a cost). The other needs to be played Sorcery speed, but has evasion, Hexproof, and makes other counters uncounterable. I also heard people discussing Aetherling. What would you all run? I was also humoring the idea of Talrand, Sky Summoner and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Both would be bonkers in the deck, but have their obvious downfalls.
Removal
I am a Merfolk player as well, and mono-blue runs into the same problems, no matter what build you run. Cards like Dismember and Gut Shot don't hurt as bad as you may think. Yes, you don't wanna pay 4 life to kill off a Goblin Guide, but there are MANY things that you just want dead, and not bounced (assuming that they've snuck through our counter wall). Merfolk run these two with Vapor Snag in some combination and they work well. I think that instead of splashing for another color, these options (in the SB) are worth noting. Honestly, using a Dismember is better than continuously getting hit for 4 with a Tasigur or Tarmagoyf, both of which can cost so low that they can be snuck through a counter wall. Same thing applies to any creature being played through Aether Vial and / or Cavern of Souls.
These guys have always treated me well in control builds. Venser acts as removal (sometimes twice if using as a blocker and bounce), and a way to deal with cards like Slaughter Games and other uncounterables. I haven't heard anyone mention him yet? Has anyone tested? Also, Teferi has always been a house for me. Flash, 3/4 (good size) that basically negates any removal when played (at opp EOT), and then once you get to untap with him, makes all counters unstoppable. To me, he seems too good for our deck not to have him somewhere in our 75... but all the comments I've read pegs him as bad. Maybe I haven't tested with him enough, but he seems like an easy inclusion somewhere.
So that it guys. I really want to work on this deck as my pet control deck. I already run Martyr Proclamation in Modern, and it's both good and obscure. Even when people know I play it, it's hard to beat, and when they don't know what's coming, it's even better. I feel like this deck can be the same. People won't know what's coming (at first glance, we look like any UX Control deck), and it looks like it could be just plain good (even when they know what we play) with work and testing. Other than specific spells (split second, Slaughter Games), the only way to make things uncounterable are through lands, which we run land destruction in both the main and SB (if you run spreading seas). Please give me advice and I'll share tournament results with you as well.
Ive been the main player of the Plumeveil maindeck style. Recently we all basically decided that the deck needs a splash colour to function; there are very few reasons to stay mono blue.
I swapped my deck to UW (you can read about it above), for better removal (paths, supreme verdict), a better finisher (dragonlord oujtai is fairly amazing) and excellent sideboard options.
See, that's the problem... The mono-blur is what made it unique... If we were going to splash a color, we might as well make any WU Control list you see on mtgtop8.com... Same goes with red / black...
I guess my question then, since everyone abandoned mono-U, is: if you were to pick a mono blue finisher creature, what would it be? I already know about Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull, I was thinking about mono blue.
-Yawg
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See, that's the problem... The mono-blur is what made it unique... If we were going to splash a color, we might as well make any WU Control list you see on mtgtop8.com... Same goes with red / black...
I guess my question then, since everyone abandoned mono-U, is: if you were to pick a mono blue finisher creature, what would it be? I already know about Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull, I was thinking about mono blue.
-Yawg
There isn't a good option for the current meta in purely mono blue. Wurmcoil or Batterskull are so essential because of their lifelink which can help you stabilize against aggro. The problem with things like Guile is if you manage to get to 6 mana and tapout for it you still have to survive through any crackbacks AND have resources to utilize it - it just pales in comparison to Wurmcoil for the same manacost (and both are worst than BSkull). If you insist on staying mono blue then I think that Aetherling is probably the best mono blue 'finisher' - but you could also probably build a decent draw go shell around Thing in the Ice. I played a TITI tempo delver style deck for a while and thought it was great. It suffers from the same problem though - you have NO reach.
You're going to have to look at WHY you want to stay mono blue. If you stay mono blue because it's a personal wish to make mono blue succeed, then do it. I had (have!) a lot of fun with this deck, but without any way to hard remove certain things you struggle against WAY too much of the field. If you want to win then play mono blue combo (taking turns), mono blue aggro (merfolk), or splash one of ANY of the other colors.
I don't think it'll be good, only because it's Sorcery. To fire off the Surge cost, you'd have to play a spell like Vedalken Shackles, THEN Surge it, or counter something on your turn. If we ran more Sorceries, like Serum Visions in the main, or maindecked Ancestral Vison, then it may work...
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Honestly, I've been looking at those as well... I started playing mono-Blue prison in standard about two weeks ago. I have to tell you that when you're at 50+ life, with maindeck Engulf the Shores you feel like nothing can beat you. I was debating on including x4 Prism Ring to the main / side because of how much life it gains you. But, I don't think it fits this mono-blue control shell because the deck doesn't operate the same way. With mono-Blue Prison in Standard, you reduce the cost of spells with Jace's Sanctum, and you get multiple Rings in play. Each spell you play will either cantrip, or just draw more cards, while Sanctum allows you to scry down to gas before drawing into that card. So, it's like a mono-blue storm deck. Ours plays 1-2 spells a turn with only a few actually cantriping. While multiple Rings in play will gain you a lot of life, I don't think it'd be as effective in our mono-blue as it is in the Standard mono-blue. I was / am thinking about it however... (I literally won a game at 72 life against an aggro deck with the Standard Prison deck... Also was down to 4 life, opponent at 47 with a flipped Westvale Abbey and I just won. He didn't take another turn and I killed him from almost 50 life...).
As for Rise from the Tides. It's not a great finisher, even in the Prison deck. The only thing that makes it passable in the standard deck is the ability to take an extra turn the same turn you play Rise. Letting you untap and attack for lethal. When i was researching the Prison deck in preparation to take it to my last big event, Frank Karsten said that if they could, they'd put in a 6th Part the Waterveil... That Rise was in there just as a 6th finisher. I wouldn't run it anywhere else but as a 1 of in Standard Mono-Blue...
-Yawg
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I had hoped it really wouldn't come to that sort of a solution but there is really almost no reason to stay mono blue. Even splashing red ever so lightly for just 4 bolts would seem like all upside as it helps the affinity/infect problem AND gives us reach.
The SV are less about velocity and more to help smooth draws out. Being reliant on pure card draw to hit land drops has not felt great.
Modern night was dumb. I played against a burn player who was main decking (!!!) Exquisite Firecraft and then played against Storm who double turn three'd me through remands. Unreal. I then had a Bye and my 4th round opponent left. Completely uneventful.
Sucks about your modern night. Hopefully the GP doesnt turn out similar
It's ok. I just wanted some practice last night. The Storm player was laughing at how absurd it was and I don't think I'm going to be seeing any maindecked Firecrafts at the Gp - but hey, who knows. This format is straight up wacky.
White gets tricky because you rely so hard on path.. but it's a BAD nonbo with the taxing countermagic. I love playing UW control, but I've never liked the traditional lists with wall of omens and resto, etc. I just feel like there has to be a better way. I love this shell because it feels 'light' in it's control but in reality if you have any control at all the opponent is almost completely locked out. Most control decks when they establish control tend to feel so.. clunky. Like every win was an accident. I don't know - just spitballin'.
We can even run teachings in black
UB teachings sounds pretttttty cool to me (it's fun to play in Pauper). Could be worth exploring for sure. You also get upgraded Negates in the form of Countersquall. Hmmm......
Our deck is like almost 100% instants anyway, could be interesting. Well countersquall yeah, but also things like slaughter pact, damnation, ashiok as a non-creature wincon, other semi wipes like drown in sorrow, all the black kill spellsn, we can even run discard
EDIT: And now I really want to make Teachings work too... Maybe something to work on!
Aside from instants, of which there are loads, (playable) flash cards we can tutor with teachings include Snapcaster Mage, Teferi, Spellstutter Sprite (maybe?), Notion Thief (sideboard maybe), Vendilion Clique and Venser, Shaper Savant.
Forbidden Alchemy to help dig and combos with all the flashback/snapcaster mages/rune snag... Off to the brewery!
Avatar in homage to my friend's elk tribal deck. Turn 2 Wetland Sambar, turn 3 Descendants' Path, turn 4 upkeep with the descendants' path trigger on the stack, Brainstorm putting Axebane Stag on top to be freshly windmill slammed into play by Descendants' Path. Too op for me.
Yup seems pretty decent. I changed my build to UW last night. Used two dragonlord oujtai as finishers with maindeck supreme verdicts, paths and some colonnades. Went 3-1 losing a close finals to Kiki Chord. Felt pretty solid and it was nice to have a finisher that had protection (sort of) but also gave me significant card advantage. Side board was so much better with the white splash as well, running 3 timely, 2 stony, 1 wrath, 2 rest in peace was quite good.
the die rollBurn in the last round. We should probably get a whole matchups thing going so people looking to pick up the deck can see what the good and the bad matchups for this deck are - my build absolutely loves facing Kikichord - I'd say 80% of the games where I'm on the play my opponent often doesn't resolve a spell in the first 5-6 turns and it's glorious. Burn really feels like a coin flip - winning the dice roll gives you access to solid countermagic on their turn 2 (barring a good spell snare) in games 1 AND 3 and I usually win 2-1 but if you lose the roll, I feel like I can only win game 2 unless my opponent has a poor creatureless draw in one of the other games. I guess that's burn for you.Have to say, Miren, the moaning well was mvp yesterday - being able to sacrifice stolen creatures and then untap your shackles and steal something else is super helpful when the opponent is trying to go wide to get around your one shackles'd creature. Wurmcoil was also very good at being big and lifelinky and laughing at removal (well ok not path but everything else)
I agree with you that white gets a much much better sideboard! I changed my 2 Surgical extractions to Tormod's Crypt for today and it seemed a lot better even though they didn't get much use (brought them in vs monoblack against Relentless Dead and Geralf's Messenger and they did work)
Avatar in homage to my friend's elk tribal deck. Turn 2 Wetland Sambar, turn 3 Descendants' Path, turn 4 upkeep with the descendants' path trigger on the stack, Brainstorm putting Axebane Stag on top to be freshly windmill slammed into play by Descendants' Path. Too op for me.
Nice result, still rocking mono blue!
Niall, how did you go at GP LA?
Round 1 against Grixis (w/Jace) - wasn't particularly close. He used 'fall' on me twice and had dispels for my spell snares which was such a ridiculous blowout.
Round 2 - Infect - I completely blow them out and found timely answers for everything. Wipe Away was so good I thought my opponent was going to cry (they were ready with Vines and spell pierces and it just didn't matter).
Round 3 - 4 color abzan brew thing - He was playing Abzan splashing blue for Geist - We trade in games 1 and 2 (in game 2 I Bribery'd a Sigarda out of his deck and equipped it with a batterskull - GG!) and I punt ridiculously hard in game 3 when I tap out for a Wurmcoil completely forgetting he's holding a Resto and I'm at 3 life. Woof.
Round 4 - Abzan - Super grindy games in games 1 and 2. Game 1 I can't answer a Lily. Game 2 he can't answer a Crucible and I Tec/GQ ALL of his lands and steal his Goyf to win. Game 3 he keeps a TRIPLE Abrupt Decay hand and even though I recur my Shackles THREE times it doesn't matter as I can't keep him off threats AND fight through the Decays (he ends up finding the fourth). Sigh.
Round 5 - Naya Zoo/Burn - At this point I'm still thinking things can possibly turn around - opponent wins the die roll - turn 1 goblin guide go. Turn 2 double swiftspear mutagenic. Turn 3 Atarka's. CHRIST. Post sideboard it's a similar story and he has the nuts. So it goes.
I should have practiced more with the actual list I registered as I kept changing things right up to the GP but I still had a bunch of fun, met cool people, watched friends do really well, and I can't wait to do it some more. Will I continue to play mono Blue? I don't think so - the problems we discussed with the deck are real (no real removal, no way to have a proactive threat) and I DO think that splashing is the way to go. In looking at everything I think I'm just going to play Faeries - it's doing almost everything we are (instants, flash threats, counters) but you also get to be proactive and play Bitterblossoms and Mistbind Cliques and all of that fun stuff. Seems like a logical next step for anyone wanting to play like we are here but with a bit more power and diversity in the gameplans. It was a fun experiment but having no way to proactively interact with the opponent is just not good right now.
I'm still going to jam the deck until I get all of the pieces for Fae though so I'll keep posting as long as I'm rocking four cryptics. BOOM!
It can certainly give you a some early action and creates a fun game within the game.
I've currently got a playset of Things sleeved up but I think they just work better with bolts or Gitaxian probes. The card is VERY good in the right shells but unfortunately it doesn't really help us turn the corner like we need to in this deck.
But, heck, I've got nothing to lose. I'll try it out tonight. Yolo.
Try this deck out splashing red for bolts, thing in the ice and forked/electrolyze. Fixes a lot of the issues and can also main deck anger which is super relevant.
It's ok - I learned a ton.
If I was going to keep jamming with this style build this is definitely where I'd go with it, and when I get Tarns I might just do that. The 3/4 cards you listed would all be great as well as a Keranos/Chandra, Flamecaller in the side against the other control decks and Izzet Staticaster for it's ridiculous amount of utility. This deck still DEFINITELY has a ton of potential, but I think it does need some tools from one of the other colors to really get there.
It's a VERY frustrating thing to stabilize, have your opponent at one life, lose your one threat you were protecting, and feel hopeless as that 1 life might as well be 20 unless you find something else. Being able to run bolt/electrolyze changes that immediately.
Yeah I have double keranos in my build. It's pretty great that generally it can't be removed.
I've had similar feelings about the deck but it hasn't been performing badly for me in the events I've played; curiously, did you ever try my plumeveil build? It's had a decent showing at basically every event I've played so far.
I don't know if this deck is where I want to end up, but jamming 4 cryptics feels so sweet.
First, I wanted to say that I am on the Plumeveil over Snapcaster team. I feel like, while Snap is great in all ways with this deck, the one thing that hurts is it's inability to deal with things when they slip through the cracks. If it's a creature, you DO have Shackles (which is a big theme here), but sometimes you don't have the luxury of dropping the Shackles on turn 3 and using it on turn 4. I Don't want to be using Snap as an Ambush Viper, just to get more uses from my counterspells. So, dropping a 4/4 flash flyer is more my style than the 2/1 that will get you another spell.
I was hoping that some people would post their lists that are running with Plumeveils so I can see what was change from the original list.
Some key things I've been working out on paper before I posted this:
First, the original deck lacked card draw. Yes, you got the cantrip effects off of Cryptic and Remand, and you got some incremental draws off of Confirm Suspicians, but I've run into games where I've exhausted my counterspells and the opponent just topdecks a bomb and I lose, or they sneak a card in like BoB or Painful Truths and now start playing more threats than I have counters. I also searched Gatherer for Card Draw in blue, and honestly, like Jace's Ingenuity the most. The way I look at it is this: Think Twice gets you 2 cards for 3UU. Yes, you can break it up, but you're just replacing one card for another the first time, and spending 3 to net you a card the second time. 5 mana, 2 cards. Blue Sun's Zenith costs 1UUU to get 1 card. 2UUU to get 2 cards. 3UUU to get three. Yes, it does shuffle back into the library, but only starts really being good at 6+ mana. Jace's Ingenuity is always 5 mana (which does suck), but at instant speed, gets you 3 cards all the time. 5 mana, 3 cards. Opportunity is 4UU for 4 cards, which puts it in the Blue Sun category, where it only starts helping in the late game. 1 mana less, for 1 card less, but will help restock the hand seems the best. I wanna test some number of these in the main.
Maindeck Removal
I know everyone is talking about Echoing Truth and Wipe Away being better than Cyclonic Rift, but I actually thing Rift is better for the maindeck. At it's minimum, you get a Boomerang (other than lands). Removal is hard for blue, but this returns anything, including cards like Stony Silence and fast walkers like Liliana. The thing I like more than that, is that it is also a maindeck option for sweep. It can be used early game to remove a threat, or can be used as a sweep spell in the late game. It is also a nice card with Shackles, as it doesn't bounce a stolen creature. I know a lot of you are putting the sweepers in the main (Engulf the Shore, Aetherize, or otherwise), but if you're up against a control or combo deck, these are dead cards in the deck. Rift can be removal of ANY permanent, and functions also as a Sweeper if need be. Now, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away are great options in different situations, but both only remove one target. Rift has the option to do exactly that, or to also have a second function later in the game.
Sideboard Sweepers
As for sweep in the side. I really am having a problem deciding on Engulf the Shore or ... Wait for it ... Aetherspouts. I know, crazy right? I played a lot with this card while it was in standard, when no one else did. The fact that it PUTS THE CREATURES ON TOP / BOTTOM OF THE OPP 'S LIBRARY is they key point i'm considering. Yes, Engulf costs less, and in most cases where you want to get rid of a lot of creatures, this is preferred. In cases like Elves, where half of their creatures aren't attacking, and are only there to buff and produce mana, Engulf is clearly better because it returns everything. What I am thinking is this, other than Affinity (where Hurkyl's Recall is preferred anyway), most decks are going to run into at least 3-4 counters before you have the mana to sweep, even with Engulf. Between that, Shackles, and Plumeveil (which is the build I want to focus on), I'm not sure how wide they'll be anyway. The fact that Aetherspouts actually sweeps the board, rather than returning to hand, not only slows them down, but it effectively removes threats, rather than 'fogging' them.
Finishers
I know a lot of people are condemning Guile as being the worst choice for a finisher. I'm also in agreement with that. If you take out Guile, you can also take out Pacts (technically), because the interaction is what makes Pact better than most other counterspells for that scenario. What is the most preferred finisher right now? I am not a huge fan of running with Artifact finishers like Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine, only because artifact hate is pretty rampant throughout Modern. I'm not saying that these two choices are bad, only saying that I prefer to find a blue finisher for my deck. Right now, I'm debating on Pearl Lake Ancient, and Sphinx of the Final Word. One can be cast instant speed, can't be countered, and can save itself (at a cost). The other needs to be played Sorcery speed, but has evasion, Hexproof, and makes other counters uncounterable. I also heard people discussing Aetherling. What would you all run? I was also humoring the idea of Talrand, Sky Summoner and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Both would be bonkers in the deck, but have their obvious downfalls.
Removal
I am a Merfolk player as well, and mono-blue runs into the same problems, no matter what build you run. Cards like Dismember and Gut Shot don't hurt as bad as you may think. Yes, you don't wanna pay 4 life to kill off a Goblin Guide, but there are MANY things that you just want dead, and not bounced (assuming that they've snuck through our counter wall). Merfolk run these two with Vapor Snag in some combination and they work well. I think that instead of splashing for another color, these options (in the SB) are worth noting. Honestly, using a Dismember is better than continuously getting hit for 4 with a Tasigur or Tarmagoyf, both of which can cost so low that they can be snuck through a counter wall. Same thing applies to any creature being played through Aether Vial and / or Cavern of Souls.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir / Venser, Shaper Savant
These guys have always treated me well in control builds. Venser acts as removal (sometimes twice if using as a blocker and bounce), and a way to deal with cards like Slaughter Games and other uncounterables. I haven't heard anyone mention him yet? Has anyone tested? Also, Teferi has always been a house for me. Flash, 3/4 (good size) that basically negates any removal when played (at opp EOT), and then once you get to untap with him, makes all counters unstoppable. To me, he seems too good for our deck not to have him somewhere in our 75... but all the comments I've read pegs him as bad. Maybe I haven't tested with him enough, but he seems like an easy inclusion somewhere.
-Yawg
Ive been the main player of the Plumeveil maindeck style. Recently we all basically decided that the deck needs a splash colour to function; there are very few reasons to stay mono blue.
I swapped my deck to UW (you can read about it above), for better removal (paths, supreme verdict), a better finisher (dragonlord oujtai is fairly amazing) and excellent sideboard options.
Deck plays better. Still not great. But better.
I guess my question then, since everyone abandoned mono-U, is: if you were to pick a mono blue finisher creature, what would it be? I already know about Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull, I was thinking about mono blue.
-Yawg
There isn't a good option for the current meta in purely mono blue. Wurmcoil or Batterskull are so essential because of their lifelink which can help you stabilize against aggro. The problem with things like Guile is if you manage to get to 6 mana and tapout for it you still have to survive through any crackbacks AND have resources to utilize it - it just pales in comparison to Wurmcoil for the same manacost (and both are worst than BSkull). If you insist on staying mono blue then I think that Aetherling is probably the best mono blue 'finisher' - but you could also probably build a decent draw go shell around Thing in the Ice. I played a TITI tempo delver style deck for a while and thought it was great. It suffers from the same problem though - you have NO reach.
You're going to have to look at WHY you want to stay mono blue. If you stay mono blue because it's a personal wish to make mono blue succeed, then do it. I had (have!) a lot of fun with this deck, but without any way to hard remove certain things you struggle against WAY too much of the field. If you want to win then play mono blue combo (taking turns), mono blue aggro (merfolk), or splash one of ANY of the other colors.
What IS with those things? No one currently plays either. If you're referring to the reddit thread yesterday, that was about a Standard deck.
Rise from the Tides is sweet but if that was your only way to win you would just fold to a resolved relic of progenitus.
As for Rise from the Tides. It's not a great finisher, even in the Prison deck. The only thing that makes it passable in the standard deck is the ability to take an extra turn the same turn you play Rise. Letting you untap and attack for lethal. When i was researching the Prison deck in preparation to take it to my last big event, Frank Karsten said that if they could, they'd put in a 6th Part the Waterveil... That Rise was in there just as a 6th finisher. I wouldn't run it anywhere else but as a 1 of in Standard Mono-Blue...
-Yawg