Metamorph tech seems sweet. Would you kindly share details on it? Which matches do you bring (or leave) it in, what do you usually copy? Willing to try it this week. Thanks.
I run one instead of the fourth Matter Reshaper as my 24th creature.
Sometimes, it's just handy at being TKS or Smasher #5 to speed up the clock; in post-board games I've copied a Ratchet Bomb that has been ticked up higher than CMC's I want to remove and started over, copied an O-Stone and Wurmcoil Engine from Tron, or copied a Relic if I need another and have played Chalice of the Void on 1. It's pretty flexible for just one slot in the 60MD.
Sorry again for more noob questions about this deck but is there a reason why Cavern of souls also looks like it has fallen out of favor for this deck? Because meta is more aggro and less control these days? Not even as a 1x?
Sorry again for more noob questions about this deck but is there a reason why Cavern of souls also looks like it has fallen out of favor for this deck? Because meta is more aggro and less control these days? Not even as a 1x?
This deck already has favorable match vs various controls (especially jeskai / non-miracle UW variants).
Adding cavern to make control match even better is not the way to solve this deck's problems.
You can run 1-2 if your local meta is very heavily control-skewed, but that's not something I would do when going for open meta tournaments (e.g. GPs).
Thanks. I appreciate the answer. Was running 1 Cavern of Souls but agree control is already a solid Match up. Currently running only 1 Scavenger Grounds so I'll up it to 2x. Thanks for the quick reply!
On a side note: I'm having a real problem with swarm decks. The subtle reason for these, I think, is that in this matches you are sentenced to play control (unless you have an absolute goldfish), but now most of them have various sources of card advantage. Humans have Bugler, elves have Lead the stampede, Spirits sometimes have CoCo. This leads to situations when I destroy their threats 1-by-1 and they recover and finally bury me.
I'm thinking about trying 1-2 sideboard All is Dust. I remember this card to be underappreciated from the times when I played Eldrazi Tron - there it felt like secretly the best card in the deck, far better than infamous Karn. 7 mana is expensive, yes (I guess here it's more often 5-6), but the effect is too powerful.
Also, I'm thinking about any kind of sweet techs to test. I just love finding something good that nobody expects when playing against you. Say, was thinking about testing Thorn of Amethyst - could be nothing, yes, but is interesting to try. Or, say, Metamorph, discussed above, could be an interesting solution for some matches (I find this deck to have problems against any creature that is 6/6 or larger). Also, would love to test some other eldrazi nobody plays...
So, I actually have to take my words back here. Today I've spend day playing vs. my friend on humans, who is a quite good and experienced player. Results are devastating and incomparable to what I had vs my LGS players, and the match suddenly started to look hopeless between Images, Reflectors, quickly growing Champions/Lieutenants and Riders. Games which I won (~20%) were the ones which I started with 3-4 sideboard cards and my opponent had a mediocre hand.
Will definitely try to test 1-3 Torpor Orbs in SB.
Yep, played against Humans in a League last night and got destroyed again. So in my last 11 competitive matches with the deck, I'm 8-3. All 8 wins are 2-0 and against the major players in Modern, and the 3 losses are to Humans 0-2. I lost a game in which I started with 3 sideboard/removal spells in hand. He didn't even have a Reflector or Image that game. All his guys were just too big.
Losses so far only to Mono G Tron, the mirror (who spanked me handily), and Elves for 8-3 record so far from 2 Leagues and 1 2 Man Queue. Wins against Death's Shadow, Cheerios, Storm, UW Control, Erayo Jeskai Combo, Bogles. Ramunap Ruins has won 3 games for me (2 vs Control, 1 vs Death's Shadow) - opponent on 2 life, top decked Ramunap and popped for win.
Do you guys have the same complaints with Elves/Merfolk as Humans? Spirits is similar but we talked about how the guys don't get as big.
no because they dont push other creatures. I mean as an example if you kill key cards like Lord of Atlantis, all other creatures loose his abilitys, but if you kill thalias Leutnant Rest dont loose anythink they Gained. If you kill kitesal, you gain back your card but champion and Leutnant keeps the power of entering firebooter...so you need now 2 additional removal instead 1
I cut the 3rd gemstone cavern in the sb to test and put in a warping wail because ppl said terminus is getting popular. Promptly got wrecked by tezzerator (bridge), lost in 3 to bant spirits and in 3 to ad nauseam and wrecked uwr at FNM. I am actually thinking I want an endbringer in that slot now. Also just mull to chalice and put it on zero vs ad nauseaum. Gonna try the new hotness BR vengevine tonight but I'm pretty sure I'll be on CES for a pptq this Saturday.
Honestly I'm not as high on this deck as much as I used to be. It's just so streaky. I'm losing so many games because of inability to draw lands at certain times, mulliganing to 4, and I feel as though I either destroy my opponent or do nothing for 5 turns until i die slowly. I know people are having success with it and I've seen it work wonders for me but it's just not fun when I'm just losing games left and right without much to do about it. I'll admit it's probably because I just suck or don't get the deck but I don't know if there's anymore growth to be had with me and this deck. I'm not ready to drop it just yet, but I'm probably going to do a big overhaul on the lands and sideboard maybe to suit the deck to address the issues I constantly face. I just don't see the constant winning and steamrolling other people seem to have with this deck, and I'm not sure how to improve or learn more. I'll share my experiences or thinking of different matchups and see if anyone else can find the flaws in my thinking.
Humans- Havent actually played this matchup often but I think just focusing on removal and hitting your landrops will get the job done so long as they dont draw too many reflector mages, images and mantis riders. I haven't played enough to give more on it thought.
Burn- honestly this and mardu are the only decks where I feel confident to destroy them anymore. even without chalices, our creatures outclass theres and thought knot rips apart shaky hands.
Mardu- just scourge, relic, and removal. I havent had any issues with this deck.
Tron- turn one chalice on the play or hope they dont have turn 3 tron. This match feels so out of hand. If they dont draw a payoff and have turn 3 tron then it's favorable for me but otherwise mimic into thought knot is necessary which isn't always the case.
Naya/bant midrange decks- these are the most frustrating matchups. These fair decks that just play a creature each turn or ramp are just too much unless i can get an aggressive hand like temple/mimic/seer/smasher. Otherwise Im just playing a 3/3 or 3/2 each turn and just waiting to draw lands or smashers while they just go all value town on me.
Death's shadow- the ones with counterspells are super hard for me. It's just can I get chalice online and not get stubborn denialed when I need to win the game.
Control- UW is the hardest but unless they get terminus I'm usually pretty good. Jeskai is a joke. esper and grixis are similar. These and the company decks are the ones where missing the landrops hurts so bad.
Jund/Abzan- depends on how our hands line up. early reshaper or scourge into thought knot or smasher is usually good enough unless they've got their perfect curve.
Combo- titanshift is supposed to be bad and ironworks is all about getting your hate. Storm is the same.
Bogles/infect- just draw interaction and I'm good.
Maybe all of this is way too brief or unspecific to be of use but I don't want to blather on forever to noone. I can admit that I'm probably just bad but just telling myself I suck doesn't help because I can't figure out why I do. I think I'm gonna mess with adding more lands to the deck and changing up my sideboard. If that doesn't work then I will just have to move on and accept that this deck isn't for me.
I'll ask this though, am I right in my thinking of Mimic? I take it out against all bolt and push decks except for titanshift and burn. The card is meant to pressure decks that try to go overtop of us. It's good against UW because path is valuable if used on mimic because its less removal for seer and smasher and free ramp. It's bad against the company decks or value town decks because it doesn't have trample and for it to be useful I need to be chaining seers and smashers which would win me the game probably anyways. Mimic comes out against bolt, push, go wide with blockers. Do you all take out Mimic against infect, or does something else come out for the removal? That would answer a lot of my questions too.
Just 5-0ed the first modern competitive league I've joined :D. It was pretty smooth sailing. I decided to buy into MTGO so I could practice the deck whenever I wanted so I could get ready for the open. BTW, anyone have advice on how to not spend anymore money on MTGO and just use league and challenge prizes to make more decks? I don't really understand the system but I would assume I can turn my prizes into other modern decks.
(2-1) Bridgevine
I recognized the deck as I had just been looking at it the day before. My opponent stumbled because I cheesed them with a Chalice on zero to cut off bridge from below. I won from there with multiple thought-knots. Game 2 he just had too much and I kept drawing lands. Game 3 came down to the wire, he had 2 vengevines in the grave but kept whiffing while I just kept drawing gas after the board stalled a bit.
(2-0) Grixis Death's Shadow
Won game 1 off of no blockers from my opponent with two scourges pinging them. I dropped the chalice the turn before I won and shut them down, would've had me next turn cuz my opponent had the shadow and battle rage along with a bolt. Game 2 I had turn two thought-knot and stripped a kiln fiend which was there only creature. They didn't draw anything the rest of the game while I beat them down.
(2-0) Skred
Turn 1 Scourge off of temple and guide. They couldn't deal with it. Game 2 same thing except I had to play around them exiling my scourges and keeping me from killing two Sarkhans in a row. Was holding up dismember all game and nabbed the Glorybringer and swung in uninterrupted. Not sure if I should keep chalice. Skred and Bolt aren't really worrisome but Relic doesn't do much either besides draw a card. I can't remember what I sided in and out. Idk if removing mimics is the right call either. It's a game that can go either way I assume and the dragons threw me off cuz that's not traditional skred.
(2-0) Bogles
Hell yeah, auto win baby. Game 1 turn one chalice on the play, they had nothing but a spiritdancer and I wailed on them. Game 2 I bring in 4 ratchet bombs to go with the chalices and smush them. They get underneath chalice and disenchant it. They get low on cards with no real pressure so I chalice on two to stop their money enchantments and just keep swinging over and over til I won.
(2-0) UW control
Got off scourge early and we kept trading resources til we were at 20 and 18 life and low on cards. I drew manlands and finished him off super slow through two jaces. Almost lost because I knew they had entreat the angels and they brainstormed with Jace. I was holding up ghost quarter for collonade all day and almost tapped out for something else before I realized I need to shuffle their deck. They didn't decline the shuffle so I assume they either didn't do it or didn't realize. Game 2 I got an early mimic down and my opponent kept a hand with two teferis and removal. I spyglassed them and shut off teferi and for some reason they decline to field of ruin my temple so I slow rolled a smasher until I knew it was safe. They dealt with my first smasher and copter so I just sandbagged another smasher i drew all game and took the slow plays. This is something I've learned to do against control. Just keeping attacking and passing don't run anything into counter magic. Playing burn has helped me understand this a lot. Anyways, they tap out for teferi even though they can't use them and I cast smasher and swing for 10 for exactsies. No idea, guess the opponent assumed I had nothing. They weren't playing lands so I assume they were drawing action but whatever. Just happy with my finish
The more and more I play this deck, the more I realize Eternal Scourge is broken. Beating control decks with one freaking creature is insane. Honestly, if I ever decide to get into legacy I'll probably jam this list with more sol lands and see what it can do. With as much interaction as there is in legacy I assume scourge would be great but the players I've talked to aren't sure. Oh well, one day I'll try.
I'm still trying to understand some things about Chalice interactions -- How does Chalice on 0 stop Bridge from Below?
Have you read all of Jordan's Modern Nexus articles? They've been immensely helpful to me and should be mandatory reading for all. When I play MTGO Leagues with my janky red version of this deck, I literally keep the following articles of his up on my browser so I can reference during matches:
I've read them all I believe and they've definitely helped. But it hasn't fixed my streakiness. I can't get any amount of consistency with the deck. Now I did lose about 6 matches because I got stuck on two or 1 land which could just be MTGO being ridiculous. In paper though it's kind of the same. I don't get blown out as often as online but It's average most times with the occasional free win. Which would be fine for me but not when I see the results other people are getting. I'm a newer player, and this deck is my first full non budget deck but I can't seem to improve any with it. I think I have a good understanding of the game and format at this point but maybe not. My only other deck is burn which I 4-1 and 5-0 with left and right but that isn't really the hardest to play so maybe I just haven't developed the decision making necessary for this deck yet.
Do you keep track of your losses? Maybe you are getting a high percentage of bad matchups but may soon normalize as you get more reps and leagues in? Are there a few matchups you keep losing consistently?
I would imagine if I had to play Elves spirits humans and Tron a lot more than I have to this point i might be in a similar position.
With all the crazy fast interactive aggro decks out there these days. I really think eye of ugin should get a second consideration. This may be an unpopular opinion but in a world were you can play two turn one 4/4s and follow it up with a 5/5 and other hasty creatures I dont think its unreasonable. Eldrazi are way less consistant and have no card selection other than mulligans. Eldrazi winter has long since passed and there are so many other stong aggro decks.
With all the crazy fast interactive aggro decks out there these days. I really think eye of ugin should get a second consideration. This may be an unpopular opinion but in a world were you can play two turn one 4/4s and follow it up with a 5/5 and other hasty creatures I dont think its unreasonable. Eldrazi are way less consistant and have no card selection other than mulligans. Eldrazi winter has long since passed and there are so many other stong aggro decks.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
With all the crazy fast interactive aggro decks out there these days. I really think eye of ugin should get a second consideration. This may be an unpopular opinion but in a world were you can play two turn one 4/4s and follow it up with a 5/5 and other hasty creatures I dont think its unreasonable. Eldrazi are way less consistant and have no card selection other than mulligans. Eldrazi winter has long since passed and there are so many other stong aggro decks.
It compares CES to Hollow One and Bridgevine. I feel the decks are quite similar in philosophy.
Looking into a new Modern aggro deck and I've always liked a lot of what CES is doing. In your opinion, what's the skill ceiling on this deck relative to other Modern decks you've played? Some decks take years to really learn the intricacies. Others have a lower ceiling and a low return on additional investment beyond that. Thoughts (from you or any other pilots)?
With all the crazy fast interactive aggro decks out there these days. I really think eye of ugin should get a second consideration. This may be an unpopular opinion but in a world were you can play two turn one 4/4s and follow it up with a 5/5 and other hasty creatures I dont think its unreasonable. Eldrazi are way less consistant and have no card selection other than mulligans. Eldrazi winter has long since passed and there are so many other stong aggro decks.
Looking into a new Modern aggro deck and I've always liked a lot of what CES is doing. In your opinion, what's the skill ceiling on this deck relative to other Modern decks you've played? Some decks take years to really learn the intricacies. Others have a lower ceiling and a low return on additional investment beyond that. Thoughts (from you or any other pilots)?
This is a deceptively complicated question that I find very interesting. I think each Modern deck requires different areas of knowledge from the pilot, and to varying degrees before success is achieved at an acceptable level. That's what it sounds like you mean by return on additional investment---being a master of sequencing won't get you so far in Affinity, for example, beyond the little knowledge you need to deploy your opening hands. After turns 1-2, the deck features precious few sequencing decisions, unlike something like Shadow, which is sequencing throughout the game.
With that being said, I think some of the most important skills to hone in CES are:
- Board deciphering and combat
- Role analysis
- Determining cards' values
Card value ties into role analysis. Our cards tend to perform vastly different roles in each matchup. For instance, Gut Shot comes in against UW to snipe the walkers they let go to 0; against Valakut to take out defensive Tribe Elders; against Humans to stunt their mana and remove Phantasmal Image.
Our cards are also flexible enough to be used for different purposes depending on the game state. You need to learn when to trade Mutavault for a creature or removal spell, even as early as turn two. When to trade Blinkmoth for life points. When to hold up Scavenger Grounds mana or crack it pre-emptively. When to Quarter opponents off colors, sometimes to force them to take damage from fetch-shocking if they want access to that color in a particular turn cycle.
I've seen many pilots pick up the deck to middling success. I think you can learn a little and do okay with it, but to truly excel you'll need a lot more time. Multiple players have told me it's the hardest deck they've ever played, but I think that's in part a result of them watching me with the deck and comparing my performance to their own; plenty of Modern decks are "very challenging" when it gets to that level of expertise.
Another thing is that this deck is very meta knowledge-dependent. When I stop playing it for a couple months, I feel it and lose. Although our in-the-dark plan is pretty much the same all around, CES plays pretty differently in each matchup, as suggested by its practically transformational sideboard. My recent matchup guides should give you some insight into the deck's transformational aspect. I'd call it highly reversible.
Apologies for the scattered response. Gonna shop these ideas a bit!
Nice I will check it out. I still think eye of ugin at least deserves a second thought to come off the banned list
That's not what I meant and I would never advocate for an Eye unban. I just think Modern is different now than when I first introduced CES, in the sense that other aggro decks seems to be focusing on putting huge creatures into play quickly.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
@AK: Great response, thanks for that. Those elements do sound like the kind of deck I'd enjoy playing. I have many of the MTGO cards so I might (digitally) sleeve up the rest. Keep you posted and again, thanks for the great insights.
I run one instead of the fourth Matter Reshaper as my 24th creature.
Sometimes, it's just handy at being TKS or Smasher #5 to speed up the clock; in post-board games I've copied a Ratchet Bomb that has been ticked up higher than CMC's I want to remove and started over, copied an O-Stone and Wurmcoil Engine from Tron, or copied a Relic if I need another and have played Chalice of the Void on 1. It's pretty flexible for just one slot in the 60MD.
This deck already has favorable match vs various controls (especially jeskai / non-miracle UW variants).
Adding cavern to make control match even better is not the way to solve this deck's problems.
You can run 1-2 if your local meta is very heavily control-skewed, but that's not something I would do when going for open meta tournaments (e.g. GPs).
I'm thinking about trying 1-2 sideboard All is Dust. I remember this card to be underappreciated from the times when I played Eldrazi Tron - there it felt like secretly the best card in the deck, far better than infamous Karn. 7 mana is expensive, yes (I guess here it's more often 5-6), but the effect is too powerful.
Also, I'm thinking about any kind of sweet techs to test. I just love finding something good that nobody expects when playing against you. Say, was thinking about testing Thorn of Amethyst - could be nothing, yes, but is interesting to try. Or, say, Metamorph, discussed above, could be an interesting solution for some matches (I find this deck to have problems against any creature that is 6/6 or larger). Also, would love to test some other eldrazi nobody plays...
Will definitely try to test 1-3 Torpor Orbs in SB.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/red-eldrazi-stompy/
Losses so far only to Mono G Tron, the mirror (who spanked me handily), and Elves for 8-3 record so far from 2 Leagues and 1 2 Man Queue. Wins against Death's Shadow, Cheerios, Storm, UW Control, Erayo Jeskai Combo, Bogles. Ramunap Ruins has won 3 games for me (2 vs Control, 1 vs Death's Shadow) - opponent on 2 life, top decked Ramunap and popped for win.
Humans- Havent actually played this matchup often but I think just focusing on removal and hitting your landrops will get the job done so long as they dont draw too many reflector mages, images and mantis riders. I haven't played enough to give more on it thought.
Burn- honestly this and mardu are the only decks where I feel confident to destroy them anymore. even without chalices, our creatures outclass theres and thought knot rips apart shaky hands.
Mardu- just scourge, relic, and removal. I havent had any issues with this deck.
Tron- turn one chalice on the play or hope they dont have turn 3 tron. This match feels so out of hand. If they dont draw a payoff and have turn 3 tron then it's favorable for me but otherwise mimic into thought knot is necessary which isn't always the case.
Naya/bant midrange decks- these are the most frustrating matchups. These fair decks that just play a creature each turn or ramp are just too much unless i can get an aggressive hand like temple/mimic/seer/smasher. Otherwise Im just playing a 3/3 or 3/2 each turn and just waiting to draw lands or smashers while they just go all value town on me.
Death's shadow- the ones with counterspells are super hard for me. It's just can I get chalice online and not get stubborn denialed when I need to win the game.
Control- UW is the hardest but unless they get terminus I'm usually pretty good. Jeskai is a joke. esper and grixis are similar. These and the company decks are the ones where missing the landrops hurts so bad.
Jund/Abzan- depends on how our hands line up. early reshaper or scourge into thought knot or smasher is usually good enough unless they've got their perfect curve.
Combo- titanshift is supposed to be bad and ironworks is all about getting your hate. Storm is the same.
Bogles/infect- just draw interaction and I'm good.
Maybe all of this is way too brief or unspecific to be of use but I don't want to blather on forever to noone. I can admit that I'm probably just bad but just telling myself I suck doesn't help because I can't figure out why I do. I think I'm gonna mess with adding more lands to the deck and changing up my sideboard. If that doesn't work then I will just have to move on and accept that this deck isn't for me.
I'll ask this though, am I right in my thinking of Mimic? I take it out against all bolt and push decks except for titanshift and burn. The card is meant to pressure decks that try to go overtop of us. It's good against UW because path is valuable if used on mimic because its less removal for seer and smasher and free ramp. It's bad against the company decks or value town decks because it doesn't have trample and for it to be useful I need to be chaining seers and smashers which would win me the game probably anyways. Mimic comes out against bolt, push, go wide with blockers. Do you all take out Mimic against infect, or does something else come out for the removal? That would answer a lot of my questions too.
I'm still trying to understand some things about Chalice interactions -- How does Chalice on 0 stop Bridge from Below?
Have you read all of Jordan's Modern Nexus articles? They've been immensely helpful to me and should be mandatory reading for all. When I play MTGO Leagues with my janky red version of this deck, I literally keep the following articles of his up on my browser so I can reference during matches:
Mulligan Guide
Sideboarding Guide
Mardu and Ironworks Match-Up
Humans and Affinity Guide
Currently 16-5 in League play right now and can attest those articles have been super helpful in my learning.
I would imagine if I had to play Elves spirits humans and Tron a lot more than I have to this point i might be in a similar position.
It compares CES to Hollow One and Bridgevine. I feel the decks are quite similar in philosophy.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Looking into a new Modern aggro deck and I've always liked a lot of what CES is doing. In your opinion, what's the skill ceiling on this deck relative to other Modern decks you've played? Some decks take years to really learn the intricacies. Others have a lower ceiling and a low return on additional investment beyond that. Thoughts (from you or any other pilots)?
Nice I will check it out. I still think eye of ugin at least deserves a second thought to come off the banned list
With that being said, I think some of the most important skills to hone in CES are:
- Board deciphering and combat
- Role analysis
- Determining cards' values
Card value ties into role analysis. Our cards tend to perform vastly different roles in each matchup. For instance, Gut Shot comes in against UW to snipe the walkers they let go to 0; against Valakut to take out defensive Tribe Elders; against Humans to stunt their mana and remove Phantasmal Image.
Our cards are also flexible enough to be used for different purposes depending on the game state. You need to learn when to trade Mutavault for a creature or removal spell, even as early as turn two. When to trade Blinkmoth for life points. When to hold up Scavenger Grounds mana or crack it pre-emptively. When to Quarter opponents off colors, sometimes to force them to take damage from fetch-shocking if they want access to that color in a particular turn cycle.
I've seen many pilots pick up the deck to middling success. I think you can learn a little and do okay with it, but to truly excel you'll need a lot more time. Multiple players have told me it's the hardest deck they've ever played, but I think that's in part a result of them watching me with the deck and comparing my performance to their own; plenty of Modern decks are "very challenging" when it gets to that level of expertise.
Another thing is that this deck is very meta knowledge-dependent. When I stop playing it for a couple months, I feel it and lose. Although our in-the-dark plan is pretty much the same all around, CES plays pretty differently in each matchup, as suggested by its practically transformational sideboard. My recent matchup guides should give you some insight into the deck's transformational aspect. I'd call it highly reversible.
Apologies for the scattered response. Gonna shop these ideas a bit! That's not what I meant and I would never advocate for an Eye unban. I just think Modern is different now than when I first introduced CES, in the sense that other aggro decks seems to be focusing on putting huge creatures into play quickly.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy