Yes, I'm on UW Control myself right now, but as always exploring other possibilites to take my pals by surprise. I simply love Modern and all the possibilities there are here (even through this Eldrazi Winter).
So 2-3 of each Thraben Inspectors and Expose Evil sound good? What about between Thopter Engineer and Blade Splicer? I myself lean more towards Engineer myself, but it could be the combo player in me.
I've had mixed experiences with those cards. Inspector is great in the first 3-4 turns and then becomes pretty terrible. I really hate her against Affinity where she's largely useless, but she's a bit better against Jund where she can protect Colossus from Lily and Fog a Goyf. Theoretically, you can treat her as Merchant of Secrets in topdeck mode, but that's pretty terrible and doesn't often save you because you probably needed the Clue to get Colossus and the 1/2 body is irrelevant.
Evil is better. It's basically a Fog + Clue in every matchup unless Affinity switches Plating at instant speed for BB, or sneaks around it with risky, all-in Ravager activations (which you can blow-out with Bolts/Paths/etc.). You can also use Evil to switch to aggro mode, tapping down blockers for Snapcaster and Angel beatdown with Bolt backup. I'm down to 0 Inspectors right now but still at 3 Exposes.
As for Engineer vs. Splicer, I switched back to Engineer after staying on Splicer for a while. Losing to the Affinity airforce on turn three is unacceptable. I also want to be able to outrace turn 3-4 combo decks, and Splicer can't do that but Engineer can. If the metagame switches to heavy Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai grindfests, I'll go back to Splicer.
Has anyone considered quicken? With expose evil and thraben inspector the curve can get a lot lower. I am not really a fan of tapping out turn 3 for engineer but these new options give us a chance to play a more reactive game with vclique, resto angel, snapcaster, and who knows, maybe rattlechains to enable flashy geists. Back it up with a heavy burn/removal and cryptics and it sounds kinda like twin again.
Yes, I'm on UW Control myself right now, but as always exploring other possibilites to take my pals by surprise. I simply love Modern and all the possibilities there are here (even through this Eldrazi Winter).
So 2-3 of each Thraben Inspectors and Expose Evil sound good? What about between Thopter Engineer and Blade Splicer? I myself lean more towards Engineer myself, but it could be the combo player in me.
I've had mixed experiences with those cards. Inspector is great in the first 3-4 turns and then becomes pretty terrible. I really hate her against Affinity where she's largely useless, but she's a bit better against Jund where she can protect Colossus from Lily and Fog a Goyf. Theoretically, you can treat her as Merchant of Secrets in topdeck mode, but that's pretty terrible and doesn't often save you because you probably needed the Clue to get Colossus and the 1/2 body is irrelevant.
Evil is better. It's basically a Fog + Clue in every matchup unless Affinity switches Plating at instant speed for BB, or sneaks around it with risky, all-in Ravager activations (which you can blow-out with Bolts/Paths/etc.). You can also use Evil to switch to aggro mode, tapping down blockers for Snapcaster and Angel beatdown with Bolt backup. I'm down to 0 Inspectors right now but still at 3 Exposes.
As for Engineer vs. Splicer, I switched back to Engineer after staying on Splicer for a while. Losing to the Affinity airforce on turn three is unacceptable. I also want to be able to outrace turn 3-4 combo decks, and Splicer can't do that but Engineer can. If the metagame switches to heavy Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai grindfests, I'll go back to Splicer.
How often, in your experience, do you manage to actually win the game in one single Blightsteel swing?
Not often. Maybe 30% of games where I see Colossus. But my testing opponent also knows what I'm playing, which definitely skews results.
I haven't tested either yet, but what you say pretty much confirms what I expected from both cards. Inspector past the first turns doesn't seem to contribute much, and the Deck has many ways to defend itself already so it seems like a terrible topdeck. So all in all it is average then. Expose at least keeps you alive for one more turn, hopefully the one needed for the win. Its instant speed is what really lures me to it.
About Engineer, yes, the little Flying Thopter can make a huge difference. Contributes both to the combo and the beatdown plan, which (should) be amazing. Engineer into P&K also sounds really nice, especially since building such a board state makes the possibility of a Colossus finish all the more real.
I imagined that once people figure out the combo they would be effectively able to stop it. Then again, the mere possibility of comboing out must at least impact how the opponent plays their own game, right? You know, a la Splinter Twin of yore?
Been testing Affinity and Jund. Affinity matchup is bad in G1 and better in G2-G3, but still not 60-40 good. Jund matchup feels 45-55 in all games. Hand disruption is brutal, and I was playing 3 Leyline in the board for a while before switching those out because they felt narrow, but they did make the Jund matchup significantly better post-board.
Nahiri might be okay, but not in these matchups. When I play her from behind, she's a pseudo-Fog stapled to a Path at four mana and sorcery speed. She's TOTALLY useless against Affinity and only okay against Jund: you really need to be at least even to play her against Jund profitably. Her inability to trump Lily in any way is a major problem against Jund; at least Ajani could blow up a Lily that just went -2.
The deck has an odd tension of really wanting the Bolt-proof Clue tokens, but not having a lot of great investigate sources. The tension gets worse when you realize you want Engineer's haste and don't want Blightsteel sitting there as you're tapped out. Inspector was so bad against Affinity at all points and Jund in the mid-to-late game that I had to cut all of them. Expose Evil is virtually Fog + Clue token in at least 75% of cases, but you can't always do much with the bought turn. As I said, an actual or virtual tap-out on T4-T5 into an unhasted Blightsteel is bad against Affinity and only okay against Jund. You can even lose after Blightsteel hits if they hold back a blocker and then threaten an alpha strike.
So, with Sword of the Meek unbaned, could a variant involving good old SotM + Thopter Foundry be a viable way to go with the Deck? Less Midrange-y and a little more Control/Combo oriented?
So, with Sword of the Meek unbaned, could a variant involving good old SotM + Thopter Foundry be a viable way to go with the Deck? Less Midrange-y and a little more Control/Combo oriented?
It nonbos with Shape because both pieces are artifacts. AV might fit in, however.
I expect I'm going to try and wedge the combo into an Esper control deck I have. It seems like with some early clues from investigator and/or expose evil it should be able to use some and still have a clue when I'm ready to try for Shape Anew. I only own a few copies of Sundering Titan and Inkwell Leviathan and a lone Bosh, Iron Golem as targets though. Titan does slow the opponent down after you tap out. Kind of like Natural Order for Terastadon in Legacy and hitting two of the opponent's lands.
academy ruins for sure, so you can get your artifacts back. Clue tokens suck, recommend just small or cheap artifact creatures. modular ability (i.e. arcbound) might work here if you're sacrificing things. You need a discard/draw engine in case blightsteel colossus ends up in your hand catalogsee beyond there is one other one, where you draw 2, discard 2 unless you discard an artifact.
also include spell snare and other counters. supreme verdict to wipe the board for your finisher. I take back my comment on clue tokens, just realized that shape anew will not hit them first, guaranteeing your colossus (or wurmcoil).
Here is my super-tentative, alpha-stage list that I have sleeved up on my desk at the moment. I'm not entirely sure what direction would be the best to take it in; my natural inclination is to be more midrange than combo, but I'll have to see how it all plays out. I'd love any feedback.
Blade Splicer is probably the best card in White for this deck and unless I overlooked it, I don't see it anywhere in your list.
I disagree.
Still vulnerable to any bolt/removal. This counts for all pre SOI cards.
Any of the two Nexus lands and token producers suffer from this.
It won't be an issue if you have 5 mana, with either something like dispel/apostle's blessing as backup.
But in a competitive environment, you're going to have a bad time.
And once you resolve that colossus, you better have that dispel/apostle's blessing as backup.
Clue's however are almost not affected pre-board.
Same goes for Inkwell Leviathan.
It's slower, but it will likely stay on board and complements the damage from snapcasters and what not.
You can SB it out for a colossus when your opponent has no outs (basically if he/she doesn't play white exile cards )
The whole Shape Anew archetype is based off of using artifact dudes as sac targets. Which means your comment is completely counter to what this deck historically wants to do. Furthermore, the "dies to removal" argument is a very poor one in which to evaluate a card by. I stand by my statement about Blade Splicer, and if you look through the rest of this thread, you will see others agree.
@ flygonagal
I like the idea (actually, I came to the forum to see if any body had it). But I would switch to bant, in order to play tireless tracker and ongoing investigation, instead of junk like fleeting memories.
Now with Madcap Experiment, I believe the card adds more consistency to the deck.
That card seems like a very bad Shape Anew. Unless, I misread the card, it just isn't good in the deck, considering we run only 1 artifact. You could easily flip 20 cards before seeing your Blightsteel Colossus.
Anything new from "Kaladesh" and"Aether Revolt" to improve this deck ?
From "Kaladesh":
#Servo Exhibition seems like a cheaper (sorcery) version of Master's Call which might be more playable as a 2-cmc card.
#Whirler Virtuoso - a pretty good card, copies 5-8 of Thopter Engineer with a slightly better body and the ability to make the tokens when you need them. Pia Nalaar - more copies of Thopter Engineer/Whirler Virtuoso but a legendary creature with some additional abilities. Master Trinketeer - a servo/thopter lord that can create tokens, a bit too slow and vulnerable.
Do you think there are enough tools now to build a decent version of the deck ?
What should it include ? How many token/clue maker, counters, cantrips /
I've had mixed experiences with those cards. Inspector is great in the first 3-4 turns and then becomes pretty terrible. I really hate her against Affinity where she's largely useless, but she's a bit better against Jund where she can protect Colossus from Lily and Fog a Goyf. Theoretically, you can treat her as Merchant of Secrets in topdeck mode, but that's pretty terrible and doesn't often save you because you probably needed the Clue to get Colossus and the 1/2 body is irrelevant.
Evil is better. It's basically a Fog + Clue in every matchup unless Affinity switches Plating at instant speed for BB, or sneaks around it with risky, all-in Ravager activations (which you can blow-out with Bolts/Paths/etc.). You can also use Evil to switch to aggro mode, tapping down blockers for Snapcaster and Angel beatdown with Bolt backup. I'm down to 0 Inspectors right now but still at 3 Exposes.
As for Engineer vs. Splicer, I switched back to Engineer after staying on Splicer for a while. Losing to the Affinity airforce on turn three is unacceptable. I also want to be able to outrace turn 3-4 combo decks, and Splicer can't do that but Engineer can. If the metagame switches to heavy Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai grindfests, I'll go back to Splicer.
Not often. Maybe 30% of games where I see Colossus. But my testing opponent also knows what I'm playing, which definitely skews results.
I haven't tested either yet, but what you say pretty much confirms what I expected from both cards. Inspector past the first turns doesn't seem to contribute much, and the Deck has many ways to defend itself already so it seems like a terrible topdeck. So all in all it is average then. Expose at least keeps you alive for one more turn, hopefully the one needed for the win. Its instant speed is what really lures me to it.
About Engineer, yes, the little Flying Thopter can make a huge difference. Contributes both to the combo and the beatdown plan, which (should) be amazing. Engineer into P&K also sounds really nice, especially since building such a board state makes the possibility of a Colossus finish all the more real.
I imagined that once people figure out the combo they would be effectively able to stop it. Then again, the mere possibility of comboing out must at least impact how the opponent plays their own game, right? You know, a la Splinter Twin of yore?
Has anyone tested with Nahiri? +1 seems relevant to pitch Colossus if drawn, and the ultimate could be a backup win con.
Here's the current version.
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Steam Vents
Creatures
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Thopter Engineer
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Remand
3 Shape Anew
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dispel
1 Spell Snare
2 Expose Evil
1 Electrolyze
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Dispel
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Rest in Peace
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Negate
1 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
Been testing Affinity and Jund. Affinity matchup is bad in G1 and better in G2-G3, but still not 60-40 good. Jund matchup feels 45-55 in all games. Hand disruption is brutal, and I was playing 3 Leyline in the board for a while before switching those out because they felt narrow, but they did make the Jund matchup significantly better post-board.
Nahiri might be okay, but not in these matchups. When I play her from behind, she's a pseudo-Fog stapled to a Path at four mana and sorcery speed. She's TOTALLY useless against Affinity and only okay against Jund: you really need to be at least even to play her against Jund profitably. Her inability to trump Lily in any way is a major problem against Jund; at least Ajani could blow up a Lily that just went -2.
The deck has an odd tension of really wanting the Bolt-proof Clue tokens, but not having a lot of great investigate sources. The tension gets worse when you realize you want Engineer's haste and don't want Blightsteel sitting there as you're tapped out. Inspector was so bad against Affinity at all points and Jund in the mid-to-late game that I had to cut all of them. Expose Evil is virtually Fog + Clue token in at least 75% of cases, but you can't always do much with the bought turn. As I said, an actual or virtual tap-out on T4-T5 into an unhasted Blightsteel is bad against Affinity and only okay against Jund. You can even lose after Blightsteel hits if they hold back a blocker and then threaten an alpha strike.
Spirits
Had 1 for a while. -1 Expose, +1 Cryptic. Went heavier on Expose to test Clues more.
It nonbos with Shape because both pieces are artifacts. AV might fit in, however.
Still, excited about the AV unban. The blue mage in me rejoices.
4 thraben inspector
4 expose evil
4 shape anew
2 blightsteel colossus
3 shapesteeler's gift
1 lightning greaves
Disruption: 10
4 dispel
4 gitaxian probe
4 sleight of hand
4 serum visions
4 peer through depths
4 faithless looting
Land: 18
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
2 steam vent
2 hallowed fountain
1 sacred forge
2 island
1 mountain
1 plains
If lucky, can get turn 4 kills, equip a greaves to the colossus for the kill.
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Expose Evil
3 Master's Call
2 Fleeting Memories
4 Shape Anew
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
Lands: 24
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Adarkar Wastes
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Plains
7 Island
Let me know what improvements I can make to it!
4 Blade Splicer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Mana Leak
4 Izzet Charm
2 Electrolyze
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Steam Vents
2 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Merged with existing Shape Anew thread
The whole Shape Anew archetype is based off of using artifact dudes as sac targets. Which means your comment is completely counter to what this deck historically wants to do. Furthermore, the "dies to removal" argument is a very poor one in which to evaluate a card by. I stand by my statement about Blade Splicer, and if you look through the rest of this thread, you will see others agree.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I like the idea (actually, I came to the forum to see if any body had it). But I would switch to bant, in order to play tireless tracker and ongoing investigation, instead of junk like fleeting memories.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
That card seems like a very bad Shape Anew. Unless, I misread the card, it just isn't good in the deck, considering we run only 1 artifact. You could easily flip 20 cards before seeing your Blightsteel Colossus.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
From "Kaladesh":
#Servo Exhibition seems like a cheaper (sorcery) version of Master's Call which might be more playable as a 2-cmc card.
#Whirler Virtuoso - a pretty good card, copies 5-8 of Thopter Engineer with a slightly better body and the ability to make the tokens when you need them.
Pia Nalaar - more copies of Thopter Engineer/Whirler Virtuoso but a legendary creature with some additional abilities.
Master Trinketeer - a servo/thopter lord that can create tokens, a bit too slow and vulnerable.
From "Aether Revolt":
#Countless Gears Renegade is a conditional but cheaper version of cards like Ghirapur Gearcrafter/Glint-Sleeve Artisan, as the cheapest card with this ability it might be worth playing as we can't overload on 3-drops (Thopter Engineer/Blade Splicer/Whirler Virtuoso).
#Aether Chaser/Aether Swooper - more codiontal 2-drop options.
#Indomitable Creativity - can be good as copies 5-8 of Shape Anew in a creature-less version of the deck.
#Metallic Rebuke - might be a 1-mana Mana Leak with 2 artifacts to tap, not sure if it's worth it (there is already Stoic Rebuttal as a conditional Counterspell).
#Reverse Engineer - a potentially undercosted Concentrate, not sure how useful it can be for the deck.
#Whir of Invention - an interesting card (a blue artifacts'-Chord of Calling), won't help the Blightsteel Colossus cheating plan though.
Do you think there are enough tools now to build a decent version of the deck ?
What should it include ? How many token/clue maker, counters, cantrips /