Inverter of Truth is really performing that well? By turn 4 in usually don't have that many cards in my graveyard. But let's assume a good case scenario of the graveyard: 2 fetches, a discard spell, and some creature. If we cast inverter of Truth that will give us 4 turns to kill the opponenet before we loose since we don't have any cards left in the library. Plus you know that you'll be drawing dead cards (lands, etc). What if they just kill inverter of truth and just wait a few turns for us to die?
Welp, color me embarrassed. Guess that's what happens when neither player reads the card, haha (well TBH I just misread it). One of the few reasons I like MTGO over paper is this sort of thing only happens in paper. I completely misread it and thought it shuffled the graveyard back into the deck.
For the time being I've cut all 4 copies, instead I'm testing 4 copies of Lost Legacy. Pretty sure I'll find that, if it works, it will only be worth a 2-of slot, but thats more supposition than fact until I get more reps in with it. The idea hear is simple, target yourself, once it resolves choose your Eternal Scourge. Effectively it's 4 extra chances to turn the Scourge into a Squadron Hawk, with the upside of it also drawing us 4 cards. The extra copies also allow us another way to attack the opponents deck which I like, but again I've got a hunch 4-of is probably too many.
Has anybody tried adding death's shadow to this deck? I always thought that one of the biggest drawbacks of running BW was the life loss and the lack of a low-cost beater. But death's shadow and the two new cards: Knight of Grace and Knight of Malice could alleviate those problems.
There's a BW Eldrazi Processors deck that runs those cards actually. That deck focuses on exiling the opponents cards and then using them as fuel for processors. It's a great deck and is part of what first inspired my take on the deck I'm using now. The deck I'm running eschews caring about exiled cards however and as such means the processors are less frequently able to use their ability. Instead my deck focuses on attacking my opponents deck to clear out their wincons; controlling the board state with removal; and playing tough to handle threats. It doesnt have the same explosiveness, but I've found it more reliable by being less subject to mana issues.
Death's Shadow is an interesting idea but I'm not sure how often it will work for us. Our manabase is pretty forgiving (there have been many games we're I've let Godless Shrine enter tapped because I simply don't need the mana up); and I don't own thoughtseize's so I haven't seen how much impact they have on our life total, but we'd have to draw and play all 4 to maximize their benefit to DS. DS decks focus on that card, burning their life total fast to get it out as strong as possible and as fast as possible. Additionally the cards they use to burn their life points usually set up their game plan. We'd probably be casting it as a just so-so strength, and wouldn't be able to protect it like a DS deck would.
What you're playing is basically the same deck but with sub-par cards like: Inverter and Extirpate and clunkier finishers in Sower and Blight Herder
(which is actually pretty good but together with Smasher it clogs the 5-mana slot too much imho making it a SB card).
Copter is a good card but Reshaper is just better in an Eldrazi deck so Copter should come at the expanse of other cards if it gets included.
You have the same processing-fodder as that deck and even more so it is really not an issue with playing Strangler in the deck. Displacer is a great card (even on its own) and playing it with TKS and Strangler is pretty much a no-brainer.
Subpar for the processor game plan definitely. But again, that's not the goal of this deck. I love the processor version and play it often, this is simply a different way of using similar cards.
So far, I am really liking it. This deck can power out a thought-knot seer or a death's shadow. Even typical plays of turn 1 discard, turn 2 knight of malice, turn 3 lingering souls or thought-knot seer are backbreaking for the opponent. The new knight's from dominaria are really badly needed for the BW color pie so we have something to cast on turn 2.
Orzhov charm is there just as a one of to either bring back a death's shadow from the gravyard, re-occur thought-knot seer's, or even save one of our creatures from a removal spell.
Kolaghan's Command is there since it is such a great card and it is easy enough to splash red. Plus we need some more shocks and fetch's to play a death's shadow.
So I've been playing this deck a lot and had multiple PPTQ top 8s, random price tournament top 8s and a lot of FNM good results averaging a bit over 3-2.
The argument here is mana vs power vs body. Kitesail Freebooter has hugely superior mana cost and way way better body compared to 2/2 body of Tidehollow Sculler. Kitesail not hitting creatures is mostly irrelevant since vs creatures matchups tidehollow is the 2nd card to get the cut after relic. Also since we have no blink effects Tidehollow is only better vs 1 removal spell. If they have 2 the effect is mostly the same. I prefer Kitesail since this deck struggles with mana and I really like the body compared to 2/2 artifact.
This highly depends on your preference and the flavor you would like to add to the deck. You can't really go wrong, the only thing I would avoid is 3 artifacts or Eldrazi Displacer, I tested it a lot and the blink was highly irrelevant sadly, I've played it the last 3 tournaments and used the blink grand total of 0 times.
Lands:
This is super dependant on your metagame and goals. The mana base changes on how many man lands, land destruction lands and what colour distribution you want. This requires LOTS of testing and personal experience.
I always like at least 3 Land destruction lands like Field of Ruin or Ghost Quarter tho I higely prefer Field since I don't even sideboard for tron currently, just accept the loss.
I also like at least 3 man lands. You will feel less flooded having some extra stuff to spend your mana on.
If you run Land destruction lands you can only afford 1 Mutavault max. You can also run 4 Mutavault instead of Field of Ruin. This will allow you not to run any Shambling Vent making your mana base superior, however making you way more fragile to Ravaging Ravine, Celestial Colonnade and utility lands so I wouldn't recommend this.
The 8th colourless slot for me currently comes down to Mutavault vs Waste. Lots of bloodmoon in my metagame and with field of ruin letting me fetch Waste I prefer the basic which forces me to run:
3 Shambling Vent.
I just like 3 man lands. It's the number that my testing has shown to be the best vs how often I have to play a tapped land and screw my mana curve. Because I'm only running 23 lands I can't afford the 4th Concealed Courtyard or the great mana fixing land Fetid Heath.
Playtest a LOT:
Build different flexible slots manabases for different meta. 4 muta builds vs field of ruins builds vs no waste fetid heath builds. Just test a lot. Always include at least 3 man lands.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar Is a better card vs Kalitas and Ob but I simply don't like WW mana costs.
DISCLAIMER: Sorry if the post is incoherent, I'm really bad at this. If you need me to clarify my choices or Ideas more precisly and better I will try to do so, just ask what you would like to know. This stretches about a year of testing, I haven't played another deck since I started playing this. Tnx for reading.
Excellent write-up! Your deck is more processor-centric (since you have Relic Of Progenitus main board) and you might get some better feedback on the main BW processor forum here. However, the BW processor deck sort of morphed into this deck after the banning of eye of ugin.
Some points:
Kitesail Freebooter looks like a card that is perfect for the processor deck. The flying is great, but the 1 power is not the best. Just like tidehollow sculler, it is a horrible top-deck and is only really relevant at the start of the game. BW really needs a 2 CMC beater similar to tarmogoyf.
Have you thought about trying 4x simian spirit guide to have more consistent turn 2 or 3 thought-knot seer plays? This deck always felt 1 turn behind since the 2-drop spot was lacking but has amazing 3-drops.
I've been working on the BW eldrazi midrange + death's shadow card for a bit now. I am really liking how the deck is coming along and feel that it could potentially be the strongest deck BW<> eldrazi deck. It has:
Decent two-drops now with knight of grace or knight of malice. These still need to be playtested, but a 2/2 first strike with the potential to be a 3/2 is pretty good.
The ability to power out a turn 2 thought-knot seer or a death's shadow, depending on what you draw. This deck has much more consistent draws than the older BW<> eldrazi decks due to the addition of 2-drops and card draw.
It is super easy to splash red, which gives us access to Kolaghan's Command. The card is perfect for this deck.
Access to some of the best sideboard cards in modern. This essentially is BC with a WR splash.
I have added some more colorless mana options (brining it up to 11) with the addition of Zhalfirin Void. Some other mana options can be cavern of souls or mutavault but I wanted to test out the scry 1.
The other thread is completely dead and I personally think the processor part is the weakpoint of the deck. I've tried to get off the processor plan, but man I just can't find cards that synergize well enough to back up the plan.
It is weird that the BW processor thread has been dead ever since the forums changed format.
I also 100% agree that the processor part is the weakpoint of the deck. I also feel that Relic Of Progenitus is a sideboard card and is typically a two mana draw one. Night's whisper would be a much better card to run instead if you just wanted to draw cards. I have recently been playing esper shadow, but when I played this deck I came to the conclusion that wasteland strangler was typically a vinalla 3/2 and I would rather run matter reshaper or eldrazi displacer instead.
Both black and white have extremely powerful 2 drops Thalia, Guardian of ThrabenDark Confidant that just dont work in a deck like this, and not a random good in all decks card like Snapcaster Mage. However I think with the way modern is going and with the unbanning of Stoneforge Mystic sometime in the future this shell might just become the best shell for a stoneforge deck, but for now Kitesail Freebooter just might be the best 2 drop in modern for this deck which kind a forces your hand to play Stranglers.
My problem with Death's Shadow plan is that you just don't have the permission of grixis or the tutoring on jund to really justify it, and knight's dont battle tarmogoyf well.
Man imagine the world with Stoneforgy. Go to 24 lands(which im now returning to anyway in the deck, removing Mindstone which just blows), take all chaff out for some pushes, redesign manabase for fetches. Replace Stranglers for some Matter Reshaper and throw in some Liliana of the veil and baby we have a stew going.
I am also of an opinion that Lingering Souls is the only reason to play this type of a deck so it just might be uncuttable.
We agree again. BW has some powerful 2-drops (thalia and bob) and they do not fit well with this deck. Eldrazi cost too much for bob and lingering souls is too good of a card to cut and thalia makes it too expensive.
My original thought process to add death's shadow to this deck was such:
I like to run 6 discard spells. 6 is the number that Jund typically uses and the number has worked out well for me. Running 6 discard spells usually required me to crack a fetch or put a godless shrine in untapped on turn 1. So my life total would be around 16 or so after the first two turns. This has changed a bit with the printing of Concealed Courtyard. But Caves of Koilos also hurts a bit.
Add in a turn 3 attack by the opponent and my life was already down to 12 ish. This deck usually diddled around for the first few turns unless we had an eldrazi temple in hand.
This deck really lacked card draw. Street wraith has the versatility where we can loose life, draw a card, or just play it as a creature. It essentially makes this a 56 card deck so we have a high probability to draw eldrazi.
Think of death's shadow as another efficient beater that gets better as the game goes along. Not only does the opponent have to deal with our super efficient eldrazi, they also have to contend with a death's shadow. Thought-knot seer into reality smasher is already back-breaking. What about adding a death's shadow into the mix? I don't need permission spells if I have discard, thought-knot seer, matter reshaper, and reality smasher! Plus we can now play Kolaghan's Command due to the increased number of fetches and shock lands needed to play death's shadow.
Yes, the knight's do not battle 'goyfs that well. But they fill a two-drop hole that this deck has and can either dodge a path or fatal push. I like them due to the first strike and possible 3 power, which is enough to close out the game in a decent number of turns. The one power on Kitesail Freebooter pretty much makes it unplayable for me.
Hello, Ive been playing this deck configuration for a while now in local FNMs and a few ~40 man tournaments and its been preforming nicely.
Its a similar mid-range list, with more of a focus on grinding my opponents out with tokens and smugglers copter than the build you've got here.
I hadn't thought of including the DS package to the list though, I'll have to try that out and see how it feels. Especially if it means I get to use K Command in this deck
Hello, Ive been playing this deck configuration for a while now in local FNMs and a few ~40 man tournaments and its been preforming nicely.
Its a similar mid-range list, with more of a focus on grinding my opponents out with tokens and smugglers copter than the build you've got here.
I hadn't thought of including the DS package to the list though, I'll have to try that out and see how it feels. Especially if it means I get to use K Command in this deck
Awesome list! I like the inclusion of Bitterblossom with Smuggler's Copter. Plus Smuggler's Copter is great with a 2/2 Tidehollow Sculler that is usually too weak to attack by itself. Plus the inclusion of copter and bitterblossom lowers the mana-curve a bit. The CBW midrange brews are usually flush with good 3+ drops and finding good 2-drops can be a problem. How is the one copy of Thalia, Heretic Cathar working out? Have you thought about working in a copy of Knight of Grace or Knight of Malice? What are some of your problematic matchups?
What is the costing you the most life loss against burn? Usually if you are able to pull of a Collective Brutality using at least 2 modes it is game over. I would use all three modes on turn 2 if it the opponent was tapped out and a creature is on the battlefield. Collective Brutality absolutely wrecks burn. Personally, I had a lot of problems against burn (when I was getting back into MTG) but after I learned more about the deck I was able to play around problematic cards and minimize my life loss.
Against burn, I would side out all of your Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom and add some more removal. If burn still is a huge problem you can add some rest for the weary to your sideboard.
Matter Reshaper is also a great efficient eldrazi that you might want to try out.
Hello, Ive been playing this deck configuration for a while now in local FNMs and a few ~40 man tournaments and its been preforming nicely.
Its a similar mid-range list, with more of a focus on grinding my opponents out with tokens and smugglers copter than the build you've got here.
I hadn't thought of including the DS package to the list though, I'll have to try that out and see how it feels. Especially if it means I get to use K Command in this deck
Awesome list! I like the inclusion of Bitterblossom with Smuggler's Copter. Plus Smuggler's Copter is great with a 2/2 Tidehollow Sculler that is usually too weak to attack by itself. Plus the inclusion of copter and bitterblossom lowers the mana-curve a bit. The CBW midrange brews are usually flush with good 3+ drops and finding good 2-drops can be a problem. How is the one copy of Thalia, Heretic Cathar working out? Have you thought about working in a copy of Knight of Grace or Knight of Malice? What are some of your problematic matchups?
Thalia, Heretic Cathar could be replaced with pretty much anything from more removal or a 2 drop really. She's best against grindy midrange that wants to go over the top of you, control decks sometimes and sometimes a 3/2 first strike is good enough.
Smuggler's Copter has been an all star drawing me cards and beating down as a 3/3 flyer almost every turn. The pattern of T1 Thoughtseize into copter, into either a 3 drop, Thought-Knot Seer, or Tidehollow Sculler plus push/path, and still crew copter doing any of those options has really been solid. Plus the extra benefit you mentioned with Sculler getting something to do with a card under him. Also once I somehow get Kolaghan's Commands in here you can buyback cretures you needed to pitch to the copter.
Bitterblossom has been really good but I definitely don't want more than 2, drawing them late sucks. Along with Lingering Souls and the Mutavaults I've always got a way to crew the copter up.
ATM I'm looking at a way to fit both the copter and DS packages together and right now I'm debating cutting the 3's other than lingering souls and shaving a bit here and there to get the Death's Shadows, Street Wraiths and Kolaghan's Commands in.
My worst match-ups in order are; Tron, Valakut (the Through the Breach variant is easier as hand disruption is better there, but they can still top deck a Primeval Titan or something), Free Win Red/Blue Moon, Boggles is hard if you don't draw Lili, Humans (has them favored but maybe only 45/55?), I dont like seeing merfolk as sometimes they are faster and Spreading Seas is annoying, Dredge is Dredge and sometimes does Dredge things before we can react.
Any kind of fair midrange deck has a problem with my deck, Combo is usually a good match if I can strip their hand G1 and after board its even better, Control feels like a good match-up so far, Burn feels fine and even better after board, Counters Company and its variants feels like a favored match-up, I like my chance against the eldrazi and taxes decks, and any regular DS list was what I preyed on when they were more popular.
Has anyone been playing Leyline of the Void over Rest in Peace? The speed of a "T0" Leyline vs Dredge, as well as the non-bo of exiling our own graveyard when we are playing both lingering souls and K command seems like it would push Leyline over the edge?
If you want to beat Tron you can go up to 3 Damping spheres and a few Fulminator Mages in the sideboard, Buying it back with Kolaghan's Command is a game changer vs tron (a t3 Karn is always an issue, but that's why we have Damping Sphere). That plus Thoughtseize on Karn. Ugin doesnt exile any of our eldrazi or the smuggler's copter, and it comes down a turn later, so I'm not nearly as worried about Ugin, though I dont want to see either one hit the field.
You'll never "solve" the tron match-up but you can make it bearable, the issue is what you have to cut from the board to do it.
If elves and other smaller go wide decks are what you have a lot of in your meta then a couple Zealous Persecution have been amazing for me.
The meta is too wide to have a 15 card sideboard that hits literally everything so you'll have to just adjust it to what you seem to face more of.
This is the first Iteration where I've melded the DS package with a smuggler's copter one. I know its still gonna need work but I think this an interesting direction, I just need to test it to see how it works in practice.
For example, Elves and Tron, Ugin is too powerful.
If you want to beat tron you have to disrupt them and apply pressure. This means siding out cards that are slow such as lingering souls and bitterblossom.
As for elves, yes it is difficult. You really need to hit a sweeper. You could try out a few Smuggler's Copters since they are weak to flyers. A sweeper will also miss the copter. I would recommend damnation, Zealous Persecution, or languish for sweepers.
- Bitterblossom and Knight's are bad options. Too aggro meta.
- A sweeper maindeck is needed. Elves, Pyromancer, Go wide Deck...I like yahenni's expertise, Hangarback Walker can be a good card. Although I can be wrong.
- It's a slow deck. Although it can be explosive with eldrazi temple.
What was the 75 you were playing? Was it similar to the one you posted earlier?
If so then I would recommend fitting in Tidehollow Scullers into the list instead of the knight of graces. They will improve most if not all of the match-ups it looks like you had issues with. With the 6 T1 hand disruption spells, curving it into this guy, then hopefully a Eldrazi Temple and TKS the turn after can be back breaking for control or combo focused decks.
Also good at stalling out pyromancer decks as they will have to spend their reach to get their card back.
Takes Karn vs Tron the turn before they want to cast it.
Takes CoCo or a lord from any of the tribal decks.
Because I play tidehollows and some other reasons Ill list in a bit I play Zealous Persecution as my "sweeper". I did play Yahenni's expertise in the side board but found it a bit lackluster (this was before mardu pyro got bigger though).
Zealous gets all the tokens from pryo decks as well as the pryo as well.
Against decks like elves that sometimes flood the board then look to play a lord after can get blown out by this on T2/3 and it gives a one sided wipe before they get their lord down.
Also against creature tribal decks like elves, merfolk (that aren't unblockable yet), or humans you can take advantage of it being a 2 mana instant. It allows you to blow them out on their turn during blocks with your tokens and other creatures giving you another way to usually generate a mostly one sided boardwipe and letting you swing in on the back end as well. Also when you have 4-5 creatures in play sometimes it will close out the game by itself if the opponent tries to outrace you or you get a lot of flying tokens through and suddenly hit them for 10 instead of the 5 they expected.
If I was going to want to consider a board-wipe that could hit anything I think I'd want to go for Damnation at that point, In the times I played Yahenni's there weren't enough instances where I saved my eldrazi from dying but still satisfactorily destroyed my opponents side of things. But again your meta may be a bit different and you may feel you get the effect you're looking for.
I feel that this deck does best when its putting its opponent off their footing just long enough to strike them down, Tidehollow Sculler gives you more time to get under the decks that go bigger then you while giving you a body, and it slows the game down well enough vs aggo decks as well Zealous Persecution does better imo than trying to take a turn off to sweep the board and reset vs decks with CoCo etc. and gives you a bit of reach.
I liked the inclusion of the 2 Collective Brutality maindeck, that card is amazing in a lot of matchups right now.
Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista are always on my radar as potential "2 drops" for the list because of their versatility, if you do pit them into your list in the future let us know how they do.
Against a Blood Moon heavy meta my fav answer is Celestial Purge as it does double duty against DS or Delve threats, and its great against planeswalkers like Liliana of the veil or Koth of the hammer Disenchant is good as well and also hits affinity a bit, for a while I had a 2 Purge 1 Disenchant as my answer to a Moon deck
I really dont like ratchet bomb vs Moons, its way too slow. Not sure I like it much in general really, seems a bit too slow for us, but against elves or merfolk specifically it seems good
So I have been working on the BCW (splash R) eldrazi shadow deck a bit more now. Honestly, I believe that white is the weakest color and cut lingering souls from the main in order to add lightning bolt instead. Lingering souls was a bit clunky in this deck, it felt like it always got in the way and just was not aggressive enough. Bolt is pretty versatile where we can finish the opponent off, kill a creature, and it gives us another way to damage ourselves.
I am keeping white for access to strong sideboard cards and I haven't really even thought about what R sideboard cards to include. Plus, a death's shadow deck needs more than 4 fetches so it is easy enough splash a different color. If I had the money or the cards, I would probably drop W and add G for 4 goyfs and drop the other 2 drops that I have.
Currently, this is a B and C deck splashing WR. Here is the current iteration:
I am not the biggest fan of alpine moon. It seems good against scapeshift but it would be horrible against tron. You are basically color fixing there manabase just to help them cast Nature's Claim.
Stony silence is a very good card, but the affinity matchup is already okay with all the removal, Kolaghan's Command, and lingering souls. It would be very nice against KCI decks though.
So I have been looking at death's shadow decks to try and see how they exactly loose so much life. It looks like they usually loose life through:
The BCWR eldrazi midrange deck easily incorporates all of these except for the mana base. It is very difficult to build a mana base that includes at least:
Which leaves us with a sub-optimal number of fetches preventing us from loosing life efficiently. However, we include a decent number of Caves of Koilos to slowly bring our life down throughout the match. We could add some Talisman of Indulgence in the mainboard as another source of life loss or C.
Since we have a sub-optimal way to loose life, this will prevent the number of explosive starts that a death's shadow deck usually has. However, the main point to include a death's shadow into the mainboard it to have another must-answer threat that comes down on turn 3+.
The BCWR eldrazi midrange deck easily incorporates all of these except for the mana base. It is very difficult to build a mana base that includes at least:
Which leaves us with a sub-optimal number of fetches preventing us from loosing life efficiently. However, we include a decent number of Caves of Koilos to slowly bring our life down throughout the match. We could add some Talisman of Indulgence in the mainboard as another source of life loss or C.
Since we have a sub-optimal way to loose life, this will prevent the number of explosive starts that a death's shadow deck usually has. However, the main point to include a death's shadow into the mainboard it to have another must-answer threat that comes down on turn 3+.
Looking to get the deck on MTGO soon.
This is the list I'm tinkering on right now, No Matter Reshapers because of the difficulty to cast on 3 and there's just not any room really.
9 fetches and 5 fetchable lands to go along with the other lifeloss like the 2 dismembers. We wont be as fast with our Death's Shadow but it is another great threat turns 3-4 after fetch-shocking a few times.
10
17
16
10
I'm not looking to play Bolt (yet), only splashing red for the Kolaghan's Commands and wear // tears out of the board so I'm not as worried only having 1 "true" red source.
The sideboard is a work in progress until I really get a feel for the MTGO meta, I'll be tuning it a lot I suspect based on how I'm feeling. Right now I'm trying a Settle the Wreckage over Damnation because it removes anything the deck needs to remove while not removing our Scullers or TKS's like Damnation would. I dont feel like we need to have a mass board wipe for creatures not swinging at us but I could be wrong.
I think we are both on the same page about splashing red. It is so easy since we need so many fetches with death's shadow and the main cards that are really good in red are Kolaghan's Commands and wear // tear. Wear // tear is just so much better than disenchant, which is pretty good right now.
I like your list but I am a bit hesitant about the Smuggler's Copter, it seems the only difference between our lists is I'm running some mediocre knights and matter reshaper while you are running copter, lingering souls, and tidehollow. I am interesting in how your testing goes.
I am also finishing up my list on MTGO, I am just waiting to pull the trigger and buy my remaining cards... I would expect a decent number of UW spirit decks online, so Settle the Wreckage should be better than damnation.
I should have results by tomorrow, I'll have the time to get a league in (and maybe some random pickup games as practice too lol).
The thing I've been the least sure in while goldfishing the deck has been DS package itself, I feel like it maybe doesnt quite fit as well as we hope. It feels like its not quite quick enough and also not really as threatening as we arent playing temur battle rage to make it go over the top or anything. I'm also worried it will compromise our match-up against Burn, Humans, Boggles or any tribal decks.
I'm wondering if maybe it should just be the red splash but without DS and focus less on life-loss , though I do like Street Wraith and that may just stay in. If we aren't playing them until turns 3+ then we could look at just playing reshapers to make the deck more consistent, or some other 3 like Lili.
But lets see how it goes tomorrow, I want to get some games in with this list now before I change anything more around just to see where I'm feeling.
I like copter as it smooths out our draws sometimes while giving out Scullers something to do if the board is jammed up. I'm down to 2 as I'm only playing Lingering souls to make tokens atm. Also it came up (during goldfishing at least) that I could sometimes play a DS earlier than I'd normally like cause it could crew copter even if its not a threat yet.
Also with the meta being so fast , and with lots of combo, right now I feel the Tidehollow Sculler being Thoughtseize on a body is more valuable than the Knights being a somewhat better creature once in play.
I also cut the Wastes for another fetch, if we aren't answering a Blood Moon with a Thoughtseize, Sculler, or a wear // tear then its already to late to find a one-of we cant tutor for
Have you gotten games in with those Knights? That was the part of your list I wanted most to know how it turned out.
I used to run a bw midrange deck with abyssal persecutor which was a lot of fun. Here is the list: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/572973-bw-midrange-deadguy-ale?comment=602
You could always try out a few bearer of silence.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
For the time being I've cut all 4 copies, instead I'm testing 4 copies of Lost Legacy. Pretty sure I'll find that, if it works, it will only be worth a 2-of slot, but thats more supposition than fact until I get more reps in with it. The idea hear is simple, target yourself, once it resolves choose your Eternal Scourge. Effectively it's 4 extra chances to turn the Scourge into a Squadron Hawk, with the upside of it also drawing us 4 cards. The extra copies also allow us another way to attack the opponents deck which I like, but again I've got a hunch 4-of is probably too many.
Lost Legacy is good but should not be a maindeck card as it is too slow and clunky, it (or Extirpate) should be in the SB
Not playing Matter Reshaper is rather odd as well, I'd probably trimm some cards like: Sower, Copter (or Herder) to fit it in.
We could do something like:
4 Death's Shadow
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Knight of Grace
4 Thought-knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
3 Street Wraith
Spells (11):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
2 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (24)
4 Eldrazi Temple
20 Others
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
There's a BW Eldrazi Processors deck that runs those cards actually. That deck focuses on exiling the opponents cards and then using them as fuel for processors. It's a great deck and is part of what first inspired my take on the deck I'm using now. The deck I'm running eschews caring about exiled cards however and as such means the processors are less frequently able to use their ability. Instead my deck focuses on attacking my opponents deck to clear out their wincons; controlling the board state with removal; and playing tough to handle threats. It doesnt have the same explosiveness, but I've found it more reliable by being less subject to mana issues.
(which is actually pretty good but together with Smasher it clogs the 5-mana slot too much imho making it a SB card).
Copter is a good card but Reshaper is just better in an Eldrazi deck so Copter should come at the expanse of other cards if it gets included.
You have the same processing-fodder as that deck and even more so it is really not an issue with playing Strangler in the deck.
Displacer is a great card (even on its own) and playing it with TKS and Strangler is pretty much a no-brainer.
4 Death's Shadow
2 Knight of Grace
2 Knight of Malice
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
Card Draw (3):
3 Street Wraith
Removal (5):
3 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
1 Orzhov Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
Discard (6):
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Annoying flyers (for the opponent, 2):
2 Lingering Souls
Lands (24)
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Aird Mesa
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
So far, I am really liking it. This deck can power out a thought-knot seer or a death's shadow. Even typical plays of turn 1 discard, turn 2 knight of malice, turn 3 lingering souls or thought-knot seer are backbreaking for the opponent. The new knight's from dominaria are really badly needed for the BW color pie so we have something to cast on turn 2.
Orzhov charm is there just as a one of to either bring back a death's shadow from the gravyard, re-occur thought-knot seer's, or even save one of our creatures from a removal spell.
Kolaghan's Command is there since it is such a great card and it is easy enough to splash red. Plus we need some more shocks and fetch's to play a death's shadow.
I always found U kind of lack-luster for death's shadow decks and I didn't like to run terrible cards like thought scour. This deck replaces Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang with more active creatures such as thought-knot seer and reality smasher.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Excellent write-up! Your deck is more processor-centric (since you have Relic Of Progenitus main board) and you might get some better feedback on the main BW processor forum here. However, the BW processor deck sort of morphed into this deck after the banning of eye of ugin.
Some points:
I've been working on the BW eldrazi midrange + death's shadow card for a bit now. I am really liking how the deck is coming along and feel that it could potentially be the strongest deck BW<> eldrazi deck. It has:
Here is the current iteration:
4 Death's Shadow
2 Knight of Grace
2 Knight of Malice
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
Card Draw (4):
4 Street Wraith
Removal (4):
2 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
1 Orzhov Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
Discard (6):
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Annoying flyers (for the opponent, 2):
2 Lingering Souls
Lands (24)
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
2 Zhalfirin Void
I have added some more colorless mana options (brining it up to 11) with the addition of Zhalfirin Void. Some other mana options can be cavern of souls or mutavault but I wanted to test out the scry 1.
I added an additional Street Wraith and cut a fatal push to have more card draw and life-loss options. I am tempted to try out plunge into darkness.
I still need to figure out which knight (knight of grace or knight of malice) works out better for this deck.
I am tempted to cut lingering souls from the main deck. It sometimes feels quite clunky and it might be better to play 2x gideons or lilianas.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
It is weird that the BW processor thread has been dead ever since the forums changed format.
I also 100% agree that the processor part is the weakpoint of the deck. I also feel that Relic Of Progenitus is a sideboard card and is typically a two mana draw one. Night's whisper would be a much better card to run instead if you just wanted to draw cards. I have recently been playing esper shadow, but when I played this deck I came to the conclusion that wasteland strangler was typically a vinalla 3/2 and I would rather run matter reshaper or eldrazi displacer instead.
We agree again. BW has some powerful 2-drops (thalia and bob) and they do not fit well with this deck. Eldrazi cost too much for bob and lingering souls is too good of a card to cut and thalia makes it too expensive.
My original thought process to add death's shadow to this deck was such:
Yes, the knight's do not battle 'goyfs that well. But they fill a two-drop hole that this deck has and can either dodge a path or fatal push. I like them due to the first strike and possible 3 power, which is enough to close out the game in a decent number of turns. The one power on Kitesail Freebooter pretty much makes it unplayable for me.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Its a similar mid-range list, with more of a focus on grinding my opponents out with tokens and smugglers copter than the build you've got here.
I hadn't thought of including the DS package to the list though, I'll have to try that out and see how it feels. Especially if it means I get to use K Command in this deck
4 Caves of Koilos
1 Concealed Courtyard
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mutavault
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1. CMC
2 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Bitterblossom
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Smuggler's Copter
3. CMC
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4. CMC
4 Thought-Knot Seer
5. CMC
3 Reality Smasher
2 Celestial Purge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Damping Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
1 Thoughtseize
2 + "Flex Slots"
Awesome list! I like the inclusion of Bitterblossom with Smuggler's Copter. Plus Smuggler's Copter is great with a 2/2 Tidehollow Sculler that is usually too weak to attack by itself. Plus the inclusion of copter and bitterblossom lowers the mana-curve a bit. The CBW midrange brews are usually flush with good 3+ drops and finding good 2-drops can be a problem. How is the one copy of Thalia, Heretic Cathar working out? Have you thought about working in a copy of Knight of Grace or Knight of Malice? What are some of your problematic matchups?
I still haven't gotten to test out the death shadow version but I am leading towards cutting a couple creatures for some more card draw. Possibly -2 Knight of Grace for +2 faithless looting, night's whisper, sign in blood, plunge into darkness, or some other card draw or filtering.
It seems that you have a lot of high converted mana cost drops! You could think about including a couple Smuggler's Copters by cutting either a reality smasher, Batterskull, and/or Demon of Catastrophes.
What is the costing you the most life loss against burn? Usually if you are able to pull of a Collective Brutality using at least 2 modes it is game over. I would use all three modes on turn 2 if it the opponent was tapped out and a creature is on the battlefield. Collective Brutality absolutely wrecks burn. Personally, I had a lot of problems against burn (when I was getting back into MTG) but after I learned more about the deck I was able to play around problematic cards and minimize my life loss.
Against burn, I would side out all of your Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom and add some more removal. If burn still is a huge problem you can add some rest for the weary to your sideboard.
Matter Reshaper is also a great efficient eldrazi that you might want to try out.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Thalia, Heretic Cathar could be replaced with pretty much anything from more removal or a 2 drop really. She's best against grindy midrange that wants to go over the top of you, control decks sometimes and sometimes a 3/2 first strike is good enough.
Smuggler's Copter has been an all star drawing me cards and beating down as a 3/3 flyer almost every turn. The pattern of T1 Thoughtseize into copter, into either a 3 drop, Thought-Knot Seer, or Tidehollow Sculler plus push/path, and still crew copter doing any of those options has really been solid. Plus the extra benefit you mentioned with Sculler getting something to do with a card under him. Also once I somehow get Kolaghan's Commands in here you can buyback cretures you needed to pitch to the copter.
Bitterblossom has been really good but I definitely don't want more than 2, drawing them late sucks. Along with Lingering Souls and the Mutavaults I've always got a way to crew the copter up.
ATM I'm looking at a way to fit both the copter and DS packages together and right now I'm debating cutting the 3's other than lingering souls and shaving a bit here and there to get the Death's Shadows, Street Wraiths and Kolaghan's Commands in.
My worst match-ups in order are; Tron, Valakut (the Through the Breach variant is easier as hand disruption is better there, but they can still top deck a Primeval Titan or something), Free Win Red/Blue Moon, Boggles is hard if you don't draw Lili, Humans (has them favored but maybe only 45/55?), I dont like seeing merfolk as sometimes they are faster and Spreading Seas is annoying, Dredge is Dredge and sometimes does Dredge things before we can react.
Any kind of fair midrange deck has a problem with my deck, Combo is usually a good match if I can strip their hand G1 and after board its even better, Control feels like a good match-up so far, Burn feels fine and even better after board, Counters Company and its variants feels like a favored match-up, I like my chance against the eldrazi and taxes decks, and any regular DS list was what I preyed on when they were more popular.
Has anyone been playing Leyline of the Void over Rest in Peace? The speed of a "T0" Leyline vs Dredge, as well as the non-bo of exiling our own graveyard when we are playing both lingering souls and K command seems like it would push Leyline over the edge?
You'll never "solve" the tron match-up but you can make it bearable, the issue is what you have to cut from the board to do it.
If elves and other smaller go wide decks are what you have a lot of in your meta then a couple Zealous Persecution have been amazing for me.
The meta is too wide to have a 15 card sideboard that hits literally everything so you'll have to just adjust it to what you seem to face more of.
2 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mutavault
1 Plains
1 Swamp
0CMC
4 Street Wraith
2 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Death's Shadow
2CMC
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3CMC
1 Dismember
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lingering Souls
4CMC
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
2 "flex slots"
2 Collective Brutality
3 Damping Sphere
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
3 Leyline of the Void
If you want to beat tron you have to disrupt them and apply pressure. This means siding out cards that are slow such as lingering souls and bitterblossom.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is typically very bad against this deck since we run so many colorless creatures. Add some matter reshapers!
As for elves, yes it is difficult. You really need to hit a sweeper. You could try out a few Smuggler's Copters since they are weak to flyers. A sweeper will also miss the copter. I would recommend damnation, Zealous Persecution, or languish for sweepers.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
What was the 75 you were playing? Was it similar to the one you posted earlier?
If so then I would recommend fitting in Tidehollow Scullers into the list instead of the knight of graces. They will improve most if not all of the match-ups it looks like you had issues with. With the 6 T1 hand disruption spells, curving it into this guy, then hopefully a Eldrazi Temple and TKS the turn after can be back breaking for control or combo focused decks.
Also good at stalling out pyromancer decks as they will have to spend their reach to get their card back.
Takes Karn vs Tron the turn before they want to cast it.
Takes CoCo or a lord from any of the tribal decks.
Because I play tidehollows and some other reasons Ill list in a bit I play Zealous Persecution as my "sweeper". I did play Yahenni's expertise in the side board but found it a bit lackluster (this was before mardu pyro got bigger though).
Zealous gets all the tokens from pryo decks as well as the pryo as well.
Against decks like elves that sometimes flood the board then look to play a lord after can get blown out by this on T2/3 and it gives a one sided wipe before they get their lord down.
Also against creature tribal decks like elves, merfolk (that aren't unblockable yet), or humans you can take advantage of it being a 2 mana instant. It allows you to blow them out on their turn during blocks with your tokens and other creatures giving you another way to usually generate a mostly one sided boardwipe and letting you swing in on the back end as well. Also when you have 4-5 creatures in play sometimes it will close out the game by itself if the opponent tries to outrace you or you get a lot of flying tokens through and suddenly hit them for 10 instead of the 5 they expected.
If I was going to want to consider a board-wipe that could hit anything I think I'd want to go for Damnation at that point, In the times I played Yahenni's there weren't enough instances where I saved my eldrazi from dying but still satisfactorily destroyed my opponents side of things. But again your meta may be a bit different and you may feel you get the effect you're looking for.
I feel that this deck does best when its putting its opponent off their footing just long enough to strike them down, Tidehollow Sculler gives you more time to get under the decks that go bigger then you while giving you a body, and it slows the game down well enough vs aggo decks as well
Zealous Persecution does better imo than trying to take a turn off to sweep the board and reset vs decks with CoCo etc. and gives you a bit of reach.
How did you find the Kalitas, traitor of Ghet, Demon of Catastrophes, and Batterskull to work out in the deck?
I liked the inclusion of the 2 Collective Brutality maindeck, that card is amazing in a lot of matchups right now.
Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista are always on my radar as potential "2 drops" for the list because of their versatility, if you do pit them into your list in the future let us know how they do.
Disenchant is good as well and also hits affinity a bit, for a while I had a 2 Purge 1 Disenchant as my answer to a Moon deck
I really dont like ratchet bomb vs Moons, its way too slow. Not sure I like it much in general really, seems a bit too slow for us, but against elves or merfolk specifically it seems good
I am keeping white for access to strong sideboard cards and I haven't really even thought about what R sideboard cards to include. Plus, a death's shadow deck needs more than 4 fetches so it is easy enough splash a different color. If I had the money or the cards, I would probably drop W and add G for 4 goyfs and drop the other 2 drops that I have.
Currently, this is a B and C deck splashing WR. Here is the current iteration:
4 Death's Shadow
2 Knight of Grace
2 Knight of Malice
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
Card Draw (4):
4 Street Wraith
Discard (6):
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Spells (9):
2 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
2 Zhalfirin Void
Sidboard (15):
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Damping Sphere
1 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Lingering Souls
2 Rest in Peace
1 Worship
edit: Replaced disenchant with Wear // Tear
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Stony silence is a very good card, but the affinity matchup is already okay with all the removal, Kolaghan's Command, and lingering souls. It would be very nice against KCI decks though.
So I have been looking at death's shadow decks to try and see how they exactly loose so much life. It looks like they usually loose life through:
The BCWR eldrazi midrange deck easily incorporates all of these except for the mana base. It is very difficult to build a mana base that includes at least:
Which is pretty much impossible to do without a fetchable C mana source.
We pretty much need to cut down on either fetch lands or basics.
Which leaves us with a sub-optimal number of fetches preventing us from loosing life efficiently. However, we include a decent number of Caves of Koilos to slowly bring our life down throughout the match. We could add some Talisman of Indulgence in the mainboard as another source of life loss or C.
Since we have a sub-optimal way to loose life, this will prevent the number of explosive starts that a death's shadow deck usually has. However, the main point to include a death's shadow into the mainboard it to have another must-answer threat that comes down on turn 3+.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Looking to get the deck on MTGO soon.
This is the list I'm tinkering on right now, No Matter Reshapers because of the difficulty to cast on 3 and there's just not any room really.
9 fetches and 5 fetchable lands to go along with the other lifeloss like the 2 dismembers. We wont be as fast with our Death's Shadow but it is another great threat turns 3-4 after fetch-shocking a few times.
10
17
16
10
I'm not looking to play Bolt (yet), only splashing red for the Kolaghan's Commands and wear // tears out of the board so I'm not as worried only having 1 "true" red source.
The sideboard is a work in progress until I really get a feel for the MTGO meta, I'll be tuning it a lot I suspect based on how I'm feeling. Right now I'm trying a Settle the Wreckage over Damnation because it removes anything the deck needs to remove while not removing our Scullers or TKS's like Damnation would. I dont feel like we need to have a mass board wipe for creatures not swinging at us but I could be wrong.
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
2 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Mutavault
1 Plains
1 Swamp
0
4 Street Wraith
1 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Death's Shadow
2
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Smuggler's Copter
3
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lingering Souls
4
4 Thought-Knot Seer
5
3 Reality Smasher
2 Collective Brutality
3 Damping Sphere
1 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
I like your list but I am a bit hesitant about the Smuggler's Copter, it seems the only difference between our lists is I'm running some mediocre knights and matter reshaper while you are running copter, lingering souls, and tidehollow. I am interesting in how your testing goes.
I am also finishing up my list on MTGO, I am just waiting to pull the trigger and buy my remaining cards... I would expect a decent number of UW spirit decks online, so Settle the Wreckage should be better than damnation.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
The thing I've been the least sure in while goldfishing the deck has been DS package itself, I feel like it maybe doesnt quite fit as well as we hope. It feels like its not quite quick enough and also not really as threatening as we arent playing temur battle rage to make it go over the top or anything. I'm also worried it will compromise our match-up against Burn, Humans, Boggles or any tribal decks.
I'm wondering if maybe it should just be the red splash but without DS and focus less on life-loss , though I do like Street Wraith and that may just stay in. If we aren't playing them until turns 3+ then we could look at just playing reshapers to make the deck more consistent, or some other 3 like Lili.
But lets see how it goes tomorrow, I want to get some games in with this list now before I change anything more around just to see where I'm feeling.
I like copter as it smooths out our draws sometimes while giving out Scullers something to do if the board is jammed up. I'm down to 2 as I'm only playing Lingering souls to make tokens atm. Also it came up (during goldfishing at least) that I could sometimes play a DS earlier than I'd normally like cause it could crew copter even if its not a threat yet.
Also with the meta being so fast , and with lots of combo, right now I feel the Tidehollow Sculler being Thoughtseize on a body is more valuable than the Knights being a somewhat better creature once in play.
I also cut the Wastes for another fetch, if we aren't answering a Blood Moon with a Thoughtseize, Sculler, or a wear // tear then its already to late to find a one-of we cant tutor for
Have you gotten games in with those Knights? That was the part of your list I wanted most to know how it turned out.