Hi, I wanted to share the newest iteration of what from testing I think could actually be a better version of old UR Twin. Even though it obviously doesn't use Twin and uses Kiki instead, because the Exarch infinite combo is so widely known I've decided to use this name, in the same way that Affinity is most of the time Affinity, and not Robots.
Basically it all started as a hybrid between Griselshoal and Twin, and after many, many hours of testing I realized that the true strength of the deck is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Goryo's Vengeance (Jace doesn't go away EOT if it flips) plus obviously Exarch/Twin + Goryos on Kiki. Its ridiculous how strong a T2 flipped Jace is, and it even lets you loop Jaces and do other disgusting stuff by flashing back Goryo's again with Jace, etc.
The deck plays like a normal Twin deck following a tempo plan and threatening the combo, which can be a typical T5 Kiki, or much earlier by Goryos-ing a Kiki.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with Scour T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Basically, you can see Goryo's Vengeance as a value card by letting you insta-flip dead Jaces, and also as an insta-win card with Kiki (which also makes you much more resilient to discard disruption), but you don't actually need it to win, it's just that you want to draw it every game.
Pestermites have been better in my experience because they actually represent a decent clock, instead of Exarchs, and the combo per se is already vulnerable to Bolt (although with all the reviving it's actually difficult to say if it's more or less vulnerable than old Twin)
Minamo was a great surprise for me, it works great with Jace but is also bonkers with Kiki since it lets you untap it in response to a removal spell and make a million Pestermite copies while the removal is on the stack.
Liliana has been decent, but a card which may be perfect in the future is Oath of Jace: it filters your draw, bins Kikis and Jaces, and oftentimes makes a Thassa impression when having a Jace in play; you all know how powerful Scry 1 every turn is.
Snapcasters are insane as always at keeping pressure and giving card advantage, and especially awesome with extra Kikis and stuff.
Looking forward to your ideas, testing, and improving the deck. Thanks.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with Scour T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Wouldn't that not work since you'd reanimate kiki end of turn, then it would basically immediately be exiled by goryos (end of same turn) and thus unable to copy the exarchs?
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with Scour T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Wouldn't that not work since you'd reanimate kiki end of turn, then it would basically immediately be exiled by goryos (end of same turn) and thus unable to copy the exarchs?
U have the same understanding as I did. Apparently Goryo's doesn't work the same way Giant Growth or Act of Aggression does. There won't be another clean-up step because the trigger specifically says "beginning of the next end step" instead of "at end of turn". And of course for some mysterious reason this makes the old rule "not work".
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I can't help but notice the maindeck has terrifying little interaction. There are no Remands that both buy time and dig, the terminates are in the sideboard, and the lack of snares makes this deck incredibly vulnerable to beatdown from Affinity's Steel Overseer and Cranial Plating, Tarmogoyf, half of Burn's spells including eidolon, atarka's command and boros charm, and all kinds of disruption from opposing Terminates, Mana Leaks and Spellskites.
I think this list is too all-in. Kiki as a replacement for twin is decent but I think going too far in is going to hurt more than it helps with nut plays. This list has even less interaction than the old UR that at least had Twisted Image for opposing skites which hose your combo, and it also ran a full set of time-buying deck-digging Remands.
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I would want to find room in the 75 for a Clique. Both helps in the lack of interaction, can proactively protect the combo, and is another creature to gain value off of with Goryo's (Though probably at the bottom of the value scale here).
And yeah, overall I think I would want it to be less all-in. Instant win as an option, but not a primary gameplan. Also concerned with all the GY hate running around right now, but maybe this deck can battle through it?
Good call on 4/2 Pestermite/Exarch split, I definitely think the Mites are better here.
Can't wait to see where this goes, and I'll be proxying up and testing some iterations myself.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with Scour T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Wouldn't that not work since you'd reanimate kiki end of turn, then it would basically immediately be exiled by goryos (end of same turn) and thus unable to copy the exarchs?
U have the same understanding as I did. Apparently Goryo's doesn't work the same way Giant Growth or Act of Aggression does. There won't be another clean-up step because the trigger specifically says "beginning of the next end step" instead of "at end of turn". And of course for some mysterious reason this makes the old rule "not work".
I looked through some of the comprehensive rules to clarify my understanding. The point I was missing was that each player gets to have priority during the end step. So, the "beginning of end step" triggers happen, and AFTERWARD each player gets priority, as which point one can cast goryo's vengeance to reanimate kiki-jiki. Then you go to your turn and combo out.
Interesting. So yes, there is a turn 3 combo in there. Fortunately, it would be rare, since you have to have goryo's vengeance, an exarch/mite, and 3 lands in your first couple of turns AND land kiki-jiki in the yard. And it's still disruptable at instant speed.
I can't help but notice the maindeck has terrifying little interaction. There are no Remands that both buy time and dig, the terminates are in the sideboard, and the lack of snares makes this deck incredibly vulnerable to beatdown from Affinity's Steel Overseer and Cranial Plating, Tarmogoyf, half of Burn's spells including eidolon, atarka's command and boros charm, and all kinds of disruption from opposing Terminates, Mana Leaks and Spellskites.
I think this list is too all-in. Kiki as a replacement for twin is decent but I think going too far in is going to hurt more than it helps with nut plays. This list has even less interaction than the old UR that at least had Twisted Image for opposing skites which hose your combo, and it also ran a full set of time-buying deck-digging Remands.
Fair points, but as a long, long time Twin player myself, I only used 3 Remands in my builds and zero Snares for most of my time playing the deck since I didn't like how poor it was in some matches such as Tron or TitanShift. Because of Jaces I think Thoughtseize is better in this deck, although Remands could be tested.
Against Affinity it's the usual business of Bolting everything, tapping big dudes and comboing.
Keep in mind that this deck is much closer to UR Twin with a splash for Goryos than to actual Grixis, hence the sideboarded Terminates. When I played against Jund and Abzan all this years I always relied on my tappers to keep the tempo up and Goyfs tapped. Maybe some maindeck Terminates could be good? Tormenting Voice has been amazing though. Don't know what to cut. Maybe the Lilianas.
Also, keep in mind that Exarch + Kiki is NOT vulnerable to Spellskite, it bypasses it completely. It always was a great advantage over Twin. If your meta is full on Skites by all means use a 4/2 Exarch/Pester split
Thanks all for the constructive feedback so far
PS: Also, I've found that suprisingly of the biggest strengths of the deck is winning out of nowhere on your turn without even flashing an Exarch EOT. Several times now I've casted Exarch T4 on my turn, untap a land, cast Goryos on Kiki and instawin. It's definitely something cool that old Twin could never do.
I was never a Twin player so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I dont feel like Liliana and Thoughtseize have a place in this deck when you could replace them with 2x Remand 1x Dispel and 1x Spellsnare. I feel like those would be much better choices and help the deck overall. Why play discard if you only have 4 sources of it? Just seems half-assed and counter-intuitive.
I could be completely off base, like I said, grain of salt.
I'm a long time twin player, and I really like the Goryo's/Kiki/Jace interaction. Here are a few thoughts of mine:
Part of the reason Twin was so good was that we eventually learned that being all-in wasn't nearly as good as always threatening the turn 4 win, while just beating down or playing control most of the time. In the case of this deck, we're threatening an instant kill on turns 3 and 4 from the graveyard, and from turn 5 from hand. You especially want to be able to side most of the graveyard interaction out, so keeping it to a minimum is ideal. One of the strengths of a deck like this over Grishoalbrand or Storm is its ability to transform into a control deck after sideboard when opponents are siding in hate.
We definitely want some loot effects other than Jace, but Tormenting Voice is a very weak magic card, and not what you want to be doing on turn 2 or 3. A couple of Faithless Looting seem really good, because if you can't find a Jace you use Faithless to find one, and if you already have a Jace, you can loot it away and flash it back later for value. Grixis has a lot of 2 for 1s that can easily make up for the card disadvantage, like Electrolyze, Cryptic and Kolaghan's command.
I think we definitely want at least one Cascade Bluffs to facilitate hardcasting Kiki on turn 5, and it comes at very little cost over a Sulfur Falls.
Minamo seems super sweet as a way to protect the combo in the face of removal (untap Kiki in response to the removal). Goryo's helps with this a lot, because we can do this on turn 4 with Minamo up. Also, obvious synergy with Jace on turn 3+.
We definitely want some more interactive cards, and 1-ofs are going to be really strong because of all the dig (Serum Visions, Jace, the Faithless Lootings). I think that Kolghan's command, Terminate/Murderous Cut, Remand, Cryptic Command, Electrolyze and the discard are all good candidates that can bail you out of otherwise unwinnable games if you can find them. Especially when you flash them back with Snapcaster/Jace.
There's some tension between Jace's flashback and Snapcaster's flashback, because Jace happens at sorcery speed. For Jace, you don't really want counter spells, but in the old Twin deck, a lot of the power came from being able to Remand into Snapcaster Remand into another Remand into Cryptic. Discard into flashback discard can be powerful sometimes, but a lot of other times, it doesn't do what you want (because Inquisition is missing the important cards, or the life loss from Thoughtseize is too much). Finding the right balance between discard/removal/counterspells will take a lot of exploration and will also likely depend on the meta.
But in general, filling your deck full of powerful 1 to 3 mana cards that are really flexible is how you win games of modern, so this is a super interesting approach to the post-Twin metagame.
- Tasigur/Angler: With 7(!) essential ritual draw spells, I think the Delve fatties fit in perfect here. My worry is that they may tax the gy as a resource too heavily. That said, I'm not sure its so bad if Jace doesn't flip every now and then, still loots, and lets us pressure early on with as many huge dudes as we can slam. Tasigur also turns Goryo's into potential Boros Charms to the face, and Kiki-Gurmag can mean a ton of damage without worrying about removal. When paired with Snap/Bolt should be able to close out a game pretty quickly. This lets us be aggressive when needed, without diluting the combo too much. - 3 Goryo's/Kikis: Basically, I feel like a 14-card package for the combo is too much, and was seeking the 10 card size of Twin. I don't think it will reduce consistency much, but it lets us play far more interaction, and some huge dudes. Depending on how good Goryo's is, I can see going up to 4, but with the amount of digging, and never really wanting to see 2 Kiki's, I think 3 is a good number on him - 0 Serum Visions: I know, this seems dumb, and it very well may be. I'm just not so sure this is a Serum Visions deck. Delver can run a million cantrips, but it doesn't need to house a combo. This is something I really just need to test to see if its right, but ideally we will just loot, play Walkers and Fatties fast, and threaten the combo, while getting value out of all parts of the combo, creating few dead cards (usually). - 1 Liliana: She might not be right for this shell, but as a 1-of I don't think she can be too wrong either. At worst, she is basically a Tribute to Hunger, as she edicts and draws in an attack. At best, she can just win the game. Bonus points because she can loot away Kiki-Jiki.
I have also been giving thought to just cutting the attrition cards (IoK, Kommand, Lili), and adding a counterspell package in its place. I wanted to start here for one main reason though: Snapcaster can play with proactive cards, but Jace can't play with reactive cards. Also not a fan of how weak this list is to GY hate, but that seems to come with the style. At the least, it is resistant to temporary/slow hate like relic, but a RIP is aptly named against me.
Tons of work to do here still, and this is far from a final product. Just wanted to see where other peeps were testing, and hit in a different direction, in hopes that it moves us towards a more solid list, and to just get some ideas kicking around. Please do let me know what you think, criticism is more than welcome!!
-Until a few days ago, I run Faithless Looting which seemed like the perfect choice. It's actually terrible, and I've been running very smoothly since I took it out. Since the deck is tempo and not really all-in combo, the card disadvantage really hurts. I actually really like Tormenting Voice for the same reason that some Grishoadlbrand builds do, it's not card disadvantage and it's a great way to discard Kikis.... BUT, as I mentioned, I think Oath of Jace could actually be insane in this type of deck when Oath of the Gatewatch comes out. It does everything you want, and Scry 1 is absolutely awesome.
-I also ran Delve guys until recently (another obvious choice), but I definitely liked Snapcasters much more, they give so much flexibility.... I may give Tasi another opportunity. They are usually so good!
-This one is important: Do not run less than 4 Jaces. Period. Seriously, it's the best card in the deck, and even more with Goryos, it's a ridiculous card that filters draws, bins Kikis, bins extra Jaces, is OP with Goryo, defends you against small critters, against big ones when reanimating-blocking-flipping in the opponents turn, and is a permanent source of card advantage. It also makes Goryos essentially free, because the one that you use to flip him you can reuse later with his -2.
-Running 3 or 4 Goryos could actually be an interesting matter. I really really like the card, but in the same way that some Twin builds only ran 3 Splinter Twins, a case could be made for this.
In favor of adding more interaction I'd think about Izzet Charm, possibly over Tormenting Voice. It gives you an easy to way to bin a Kiki / dig at instant speed but also gives you good utility as all of the modes are useful interaction to have access to & Snap / Jace give you ways to use multiple modes, ie shock the first time & loot to bin Kiki on the flashback without putting yourself down a card. I'd also probably rather have more spot discard like Inquisition or disruption like Remand / Spell Snare than have MD Lillies straining the manabase (though I realize she serves as a discard outlet for Kiki).
In favor of adding more interaction I'd think about Izzet Charm, possibly over Tormenting Voice. It gives you an easy to way to bin a Kiki / dig at instant speed but also gives you good utility as all of the modes are useful interaction to have access to & Snap / Jace give you ways to use multiple modes, ie shock the first time & loot to bin Kiki on the flashback without putting yourself down a card. I'd also probably rather have more spot discard like Inquisition or disruption like Remand / Spell Snare than have MD Lillies straining the manabase (though I realize she serves as a discard outlet for Kiki).
Also had Izzet Charms until recently, but didn't completely like them because the modes are a bit expensive for what they do (although it's certainly versatile), and again because of the card disadvantage when looting.
Unfortunately I realize that most of your suggestions I've already tried these past months, although it makes sense because on the surface they seem good.
You are completely right on the Lilianas, getting BB can be such a pain sometimes. I have really high hopes with Oath of Jace as a substitute
Why don't you give Thirst for Knowledge a shot? Instant speed seems much more useful than the slim chance to scry 1 with Oath of Jace & I think this deck is best served operating largely at instant speed.
JVP looting, vengeance & mite / exarch all can allow you to go off at instant speed. That's something that the original namesake Splinter Twin couldn't do, and it's a strength that I think the deck should capitalize on.
I can't help but notice the maindeck has terrifying little interaction. There are no Remands that both buy time and dig, the terminates are in the sideboard, and the lack of snares makes this deck incredibly vulnerable to beatdown from Affinity's Steel Overseer and Cranial Plating, Tarmogoyf, half of Burn's spells including eidolon, atarka's command and boros charm, and all kinds of disruption from opposing Terminates, Mana Leaks and Spellskites.
I think this list is too all-in. Kiki as a replacement for twin is decent but I think going too far in is going to hurt more than it helps with nut plays. This list has even less interaction than the old UR that at least had Twisted Image for opposing skites which hose your combo, and it also ran a full set of time-buying deck-digging Remands.
Fair points, but as a long, long time Twin player myself, I only used 3 Remands in my builds and zero Snares for most of my time playing the deck since I didn't like how poor it was in some matches such as Tron or TitanShift. Because of Jaces I think Thoughtseize is better in this deck, although Remands could be tested.
Against Affinity it's the usual business of Bolting everything, tapping big dudes and comboing.
Keep in mind that this deck is much closer to UR Twin with a splash for Goryos than to actual Grixis, hence the sideboarded Terminates. When I played against Jund and Abzan all this years I always relied on my tappers to keep the tempo up and Goyfs tapped. Maybe some maindeck Terminates could be good? Tormenting Voice has been amazing though. Don't know what to cut. Maybe the Lilianas.
Also, keep in mind that Exarch + Kiki is NOT vulnerable to Spellskite, it bypasses it completely. It always was a great advantage over Twin. If your meta is full on Skites by all means use a 4/2 Exarch/Pester split
Thanks all for the constructive feedback so far
PS: Also, I've found that suprisingly of the biggest strengths of the deck is winning out of nowhere on your turn without even flashing an Exarch EOT. Several times now I've casted Exarch T4 on my turn, untap a land, cast Goryos on Kiki and instawin. It's definitely something cool that old Twin could never do.
Uh, no, you're not "closer" to UR twin. At all. The thing about UR is they ran cantrips that ALSO did something, like Electrolyze and Twisted Image and Remand. These spells bought time while digging for the combo. Your list expends turns and mana digging and dropping, which, while techically UR is also doing, you're doing while not interacting at all. Don't forget that when you Tormenting Voice t2 your opponent could be dropping their goyf, or steel overseer, or plating.
Throwing a Kiki in the yard for vengeance sounds great but here's the thing: people have been doing that Jace trick for a while now, and its been talked about a lot by Majors on SCG. But they don't bend over backwards with Faithless or Tormenting to do that; they let the opponent spend a removal spell putting him there in the first place. If you really wanted to have the odds of pulling this off, I'd run it at instant speed with Thought Scour and Izzet Charm, and put the interaction (terminates and remands) back into the main deck. Why? So you have mana up on your turn to interact. Secondly, you can run Tasigurs and Anglers in your sideboard and go full on control if the situation calls for it. Tormenting and Faithless are terrible for control, so if you meet combo or GY hate in your G1, you'll be hard pressed to win G2.
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I can't help but notice the maindeck has terrifying little interaction. There are no Remands that both buy time and dig, the terminates are in the sideboard, and the lack of snares makes this deck incredibly vulnerable to beatdown from Affinity's Steel Overseer and Cranial Plating, Tarmogoyf, half of Burn's spells including eidolon, atarka's command and boros charm, and all kinds of disruption from opposing Terminates, Mana Leaks and Spellskites.
I think this list is too all-in. Kiki as a replacement for twin is decent but I think going too far in is going to hurt more than it helps with nut plays. This list has even less interaction than the old UR that at least had Twisted Image for opposing skites which hose your combo, and it also ran a full set of time-buying deck-digging Remands.
Fair points, but as a long, long time Twin player myself, I only used 3 Remands in my builds and zero Snares for most of my time playing the deck since I didn't like how poor it was in some matches such as Tron or TitanShift. Because of Jaces I think Thoughtseize is better in this deck, although Remands could be tested.
Against Affinity it's the usual business of Bolting everything, tapping big dudes and comboing.
Keep in mind that this deck is much closer to UR Twin with a splash for Goryos than to actual Grixis, hence the sideboarded Terminates. When I played against Jund and Abzan all this years I always relied on my tappers to keep the tempo up and Goyfs tapped. Maybe some maindeck Terminates could be good? Tormenting Voice has been amazing though. Don't know what to cut. Maybe the Lilianas.
Also, keep in mind that Exarch + Kiki is NOT vulnerable to Spellskite, it bypasses it completely. It always was a great advantage over Twin. If your meta is full on Skites by all means use a 4/2 Exarch/Pester split
Thanks all for the constructive feedback so far
PS: Also, I've found that suprisingly of the biggest strengths of the deck is winning out of nowhere on your turn without even flashing an Exarch EOT. Several times now I've casted Exarch T4 on my turn, untap a land, cast Goryos on Kiki and instawin. It's definitely something cool that old Twin could never do.
Uh, no, you're not "closer" to UR twin. At all. The thing about UR is they ran cantrips that ALSO did something, like Electrolyze and Twisted Image and Remand. These spells bought time while digging for the combo. Your list expends turns and mana digging and dropping, which, while techically UR is also doing, you're doing while not interacting at all. Don't forget that when you Tormenting Voice t2 your opponent could be dropping their goyf, or steel overseer, or plating.
Throwing a Kiki in the yard for vengeance sounds great but here's the thing: people have been doing that Jace trick for a while now, and its been talked about a lot by Majors on SCG. But they don't bend over backwards with Faithless or Tormenting to do that; they let the opponent spend a removal spell putting him there in the first place. If you really wanted to have the odds of pulling this off, I'd run it at instant speed with Thought Scour and Izzet Charm, and put the interaction (terminates and remands) back into the main deck. Why? So you have mana up on your turn to interact. Secondly, you can run Tasigurs and Anglers in your sideboard and go full on control if the situation calls for it. Tormenting and Faithless are terrible for control, so if you meet combo or GY hate in your G1, you'll be hard pressed to win G2.
Faithless Looting is terrible in this deck, that's why I don't run them. And I already run Thought Scour, cause it's good. Tormenting voice is only a 2-of, and again, it's been quite nice. You could put Izzet Charms instead, sure. It's card disadvantage but it's more versatile, so it's a trade-off. It's not for binning Jaces though, why would you ever bin Jace? You play Jace, which only costs 2 and if he lives, great! if he does not, you Goryos it. It's only for Kiki-Jiki. You never bin Jaces, only Kikis.
The deck is exactly like UR Twin, you only have basically 4 Goryos as a difference, how is it not UR Twin with a small B splash? I put in Thoughtseizes because they work better with Jace, but you can change them for Remand. As for the rest, the version I presented is exactly like UR Twin.
I have been trying a more Grixis-oriented deck these days though, which has been good too (also reworked a bit the manabase, maybe another Bluff could be good too (for a Swamp?):
After reading this thread thus far, and testing my own iterations of the deck, I really like the potential here. I also began my deck as an amalgamation of Grisel and Twin, but the general consensus seems to be true; the deck is stronger just playing as Grixis control with the Goryo/Kiki combo built in. The question is whether or not it's worth it to dilute a Grixis control deck with 12 cards (Exarch, Kiki, Goryo) with the hopes of randomly comboing off. Goryo's has considerable value anyway, since the Jace interaction. Exarch is a nice wall and can pull off some tricks via the ETB effect. Kiki is fragile and difficult to hard cast, but also plays well with Snapcaster.
Goryo's Twin
2 Deceiver Exarch
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tormenting Voice
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Thoughtseize
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Blood Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Vandalblast
1 Teferi, Mage of Zalfir
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Terminate
Basically it all started as a hybrid between Griselshoal and Twin, and after many, many hours of testing I realized that the true strength of the deck is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Goryo's Vengeance (Jace doesn't go away EOT if it flips) plus obviously Exarch/Twin + Goryos on Kiki. Its ridiculous how strong a T2 flipped Jace is, and it even lets you loop Jaces and do other disgusting stuff by flashing back Goryo's again with Jace, etc.
The deck plays like a normal Twin deck following a tempo plan and threatening the combo, which can be a typical T5 Kiki, or much earlier by Goryos-ing a Kiki.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with Scour T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Basically, you can see Goryo's Vengeance as a value card by letting you insta-flip dead Jaces, and also as an insta-win card with Kiki (which also makes you much more resilient to discard disruption), but you don't actually need it to win, it's just that you want to draw it every game.
Pestermites have been better in my experience because they actually represent a decent clock, instead of Exarchs, and the combo per se is already vulnerable to Bolt (although with all the reviving it's actually difficult to say if it's more or less vulnerable than old Twin)
Minamo was a great surprise for me, it works great with Jace but is also bonkers with Kiki since it lets you untap it in response to a removal spell and make a million Pestermite copies while the removal is on the stack.
Liliana has been decent, but a card which may be perfect in the future is Oath of Jace: it filters your draw, bins Kikis and Jaces, and oftentimes makes a Thassa impression when having a Jace in play; you all know how powerful Scry 1 every turn is.
Snapcasters are insane as always at keeping pressure and giving card advantage, and especially awesome with extra Kikis and stuff.
Looking forward to your ideas, testing, and improving the deck. Thanks.
Wouldn't that not work since you'd reanimate kiki end of turn, then it would basically immediately be exiled by goryos (end of same turn) and thus unable to copy the exarchs?
U have the same understanding as I did. Apparently Goryo's doesn't work the same way Giant Growth or Act of Aggression does. There won't be another clean-up step because the trigger specifically says "beginning of the next end step" instead of "at end of turn". And of course for some mysterious reason this makes the old rule "not work".
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I think this list is too all-in. Kiki as a replacement for twin is decent but I think going too far in is going to hurt more than it helps with nut plays. This list has even less interaction than the old UR that at least had Twisted Image for opposing skites which hose your combo, and it also ran a full set of time-buying deck-digging Remands.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I would want to find room in the 75 for a Clique. Both helps in the lack of interaction, can proactively protect the combo, and is another creature to gain value off of with Goryo's (Though probably at the bottom of the value scale here).
And yeah, overall I think I would want it to be less all-in. Instant win as an option, but not a primary gameplan. Also concerned with all the GY hate running around right now, but maybe this deck can battle through it?
Good call on 4/2 Pestermite/Exarch split, I definitely think the Mites are better here.
Can't wait to see where this goes, and I'll be proxying up and testing some iterations myself.
I looked through some of the comprehensive rules to clarify my understanding. The point I was missing was that each player gets to have priority during the end step. So, the "beginning of end step" triggers happen, and AFTERWARD each player gets priority, as which point one can cast goryo's vengeance to reanimate kiki-jiki. Then you go to your turn and combo out.
Interesting. So yes, there is a turn 3 combo in there. Fortunately, it would be rare, since you have to have goryo's vengeance, an exarch/mite, and 3 lands in your first couple of turns AND land kiki-jiki in the yard. And it's still disruptable at instant speed.
Fair points, but as a long, long time Twin player myself, I only used 3 Remands in my builds and zero Snares for most of my time playing the deck since I didn't like how poor it was in some matches such as Tron or TitanShift. Because of Jaces I think Thoughtseize is better in this deck, although Remands could be tested.
Against Affinity it's the usual business of Bolting everything, tapping big dudes and comboing.
Keep in mind that this deck is much closer to UR Twin with a splash for Goryos than to actual Grixis, hence the sideboarded Terminates. When I played against Jund and Abzan all this years I always relied on my tappers to keep the tempo up and Goyfs tapped. Maybe some maindeck Terminates could be good? Tormenting Voice has been amazing though. Don't know what to cut. Maybe the Lilianas.
Also, keep in mind that Exarch + Kiki is NOT vulnerable to Spellskite, it bypasses it completely. It always was a great advantage over Twin. If your meta is full on Skites by all means use a 4/2 Exarch/Pester split
Thanks all for the constructive feedback so far
PS: Also, I've found that suprisingly of the biggest strengths of the deck is winning out of nowhere on your turn without even flashing an Exarch EOT. Several times now I've casted Exarch T4 on my turn, untap a land, cast Goryos on Kiki and instawin. It's definitely something cool that old Twin could never do.
I dont feel like Liliana and Thoughtseize have a place in this deck when you could replace them with 2x Remand 1x Dispel and 1x Spellsnare. I feel like those would be much better choices and help the deck overall. Why play discard if you only have 4 sources of it? Just seems half-assed and counter-intuitive.
I could be completely off base, like I said, grain of salt.
Thoughts?
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
But in general, filling your deck full of powerful 1 to 3 mana cards that are really flexible is how you win games of modern, so this is a super interesting approach to the post-Twin metagame.
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Pestermite
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Thought Scour
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
Some thoughts:
- Tasigur/Angler: With 7(!) essential ritual draw spells, I think the Delve fatties fit in perfect here. My worry is that they may tax the gy as a resource too heavily. That said, I'm not sure its so bad if Jace doesn't flip every now and then, still loots, and lets us pressure early on with as many huge dudes as we can slam. Tasigur also turns Goryo's into potential Boros Charms to the face, and Kiki-Gurmag can mean a ton of damage without worrying about removal. When paired with Snap/Bolt should be able to close out a game pretty quickly. This lets us be aggressive when needed, without diluting the combo too much.
- 3 Goryo's/Kikis: Basically, I feel like a 14-card package for the combo is too much, and was seeking the 10 card size of Twin. I don't think it will reduce consistency much, but it lets us play far more interaction, and some huge dudes. Depending on how good Goryo's is, I can see going up to 4, but with the amount of digging, and never really wanting to see 2 Kiki's, I think 3 is a good number on him
- 0 Serum Visions: I know, this seems dumb, and it very well may be. I'm just not so sure this is a Serum Visions deck. Delver can run a million cantrips, but it doesn't need to house a combo. This is something I really just need to test to see if its right, but ideally we will just loot, play Walkers and Fatties fast, and threaten the combo, while getting value out of all parts of the combo, creating few dead cards (usually).
- 1 Liliana: She might not be right for this shell, but as a 1-of I don't think she can be too wrong either. At worst, she is basically a Tribute to Hunger, as she edicts and draws in an attack. At best, she can just win the game. Bonus points because she can loot away Kiki-Jiki.
I have also been giving thought to just cutting the attrition cards (IoK, Kommand, Lili), and adding a counterspell package in its place. I wanted to start here for one main reason though: Snapcaster can play with proactive cards, but Jace can't play with reactive cards. Also not a fan of how weak this list is to GY hate, but that seems to come with the style. At the least, it is resistant to temporary/slow hate like relic, but a RIP is aptly named against me.
Tons of work to do here still, and this is far from a final product. Just wanted to see where other peeps were testing, and hit in a different direction, in hopes that it moves us towards a more solid list, and to just get some ideas kicking around. Please do let me know what you think, criticism is more than welcome!!
-Until a few days ago, I run Faithless Looting which seemed like the perfect choice. It's actually terrible, and I've been running very smoothly since I took it out. Since the deck is tempo and not really all-in combo, the card disadvantage really hurts. I actually really like Tormenting Voice for the same reason that some Grishoadlbrand builds do, it's not card disadvantage and it's a great way to discard Kikis.... BUT, as I mentioned, I think Oath of Jace could actually be insane in this type of deck when Oath of the Gatewatch comes out. It does everything you want, and Scry 1 is absolutely awesome.
-I also ran Delve guys until recently (another obvious choice), but I definitely liked Snapcasters much more, they give so much flexibility.... I may give Tasi another opportunity. They are usually so good!
-This one is important: Do not run less than 4 Jaces. Period. Seriously, it's the best card in the deck, and even more with Goryos, it's a ridiculous card that filters draws, bins Kikis, bins extra Jaces, is OP with Goryo, defends you against small critters, against big ones when reanimating-blocking-flipping in the opponents turn, and is a permanent source of card advantage. It also makes Goryos essentially free, because the one that you use to flip him you can reuse later with his -2.
-Running 3 or 4 Goryos could actually be an interesting matter. I really really like the card, but in the same way that some Twin builds only ran 3 Splinter Twins, a case could be made for this.
Also had Izzet Charms until recently, but didn't completely like them because the modes are a bit expensive for what they do (although it's certainly versatile), and again because of the card disadvantage when looting.
Unfortunately I realize that most of your suggestions I've already tried these past months, although it makes sense because on the surface they seem good.
You are completely right on the Lilianas, getting BB can be such a pain sometimes. I have really high hopes with Oath of Jace as a substitute
JVP looting, vengeance & mite / exarch all can allow you to go off at instant speed. That's something that the original namesake Splinter Twin couldn't do, and it's a strength that I think the deck should capitalize on.
Uh, no, you're not "closer" to UR twin. At all. The thing about UR is they ran cantrips that ALSO did something, like Electrolyze and Twisted Image and Remand. These spells bought time while digging for the combo. Your list expends turns and mana digging and dropping, which, while techically UR is also doing, you're doing while not interacting at all. Don't forget that when you Tormenting Voice t2 your opponent could be dropping their goyf, or steel overseer, or plating.
Throwing a Kiki in the yard for vengeance sounds great but here's the thing: people have been doing that Jace trick for a while now, and its been talked about a lot by Majors on SCG. But they don't bend over backwards with Faithless or Tormenting to do that; they let the opponent spend a removal spell putting him there in the first place. If you really wanted to have the odds of pulling this off, I'd run it at instant speed with Thought Scour and Izzet Charm, and put the interaction (terminates and remands) back into the main deck. Why? So you have mana up on your turn to interact. Secondly, you can run Tasigurs and Anglers in your sideboard and go full on control if the situation calls for it. Tormenting and Faithless are terrible for control, so if you meet combo or GY hate in your G1, you'll be hard pressed to win G2.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Faithless Looting is terrible in this deck, that's why I don't run them. And I already run Thought Scour, cause it's good. Tormenting voice is only a 2-of, and again, it's been quite nice. You could put Izzet Charms instead, sure. It's card disadvantage but it's more versatile, so it's a trade-off. It's not for binning Jaces though, why would you ever bin Jace? You play Jace, which only costs 2 and if he lives, great! if he does not, you Goryos it. It's only for Kiki-Jiki. You never bin Jaces, only Kikis.
The deck is exactly like UR Twin, you only have basically 4 Goryos as a difference, how is it not UR Twin with a small B splash? I put in Thoughtseizes because they work better with Jace, but you can change them for Remand. As for the rest, the version I presented is exactly like UR Twin.
I have been trying a more Grixis-oriented deck these days though, which has been good too (also reworked a bit the manabase, maybe another Bluff could be good too (for a Swamp?):
3 Deceiver Exarch
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, Golden fang
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Minamo, School in the Water
1 Desolate Lighthouse
Here's my updated version, test results to come.
4 Jace, Vryn's prodigy
4 Deceiver exarch
4 Kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (21):
4 Lightning bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Remand
4 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Terminate
2 Izzet Charm
Lands (23):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Spirebluff Canal
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood crypt
1 Steam vents
1 Cascade bluffs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Minamo, School at Waters Edge
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 swamp
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Kolaghan's command
1 rise//fall
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 spell snare
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Electrolyze
Draft My Cube!