Hey guys, back with another deck idea. I'm gonna go more in-depth with a primer of sorts when I have time tomorrow, but I just wanted to post this overnight to see some people's thoughts when I get up in the morning! Thanks for any input, and hopefully this will look a lot more "official" come tomorrow!
I've been playtesting this deck quite a bit, and I guess the weaker matchups (game one, at least) are Affinity and Burn. Granted, the tools to beat them are in the original 60, but that's a matter of drawing them. In the board are mostly cards to combat those decks, while also having some more tools against some of the larger Tier One decks
- All of your creatures aside from Disciple of Bolas having evasion is a large bonus to this deck as well!
- Swamp - Next!
- Bojuka Bog - Pretty good way to get rid of the yard, which is nice versus decks like dredgevine. Can hurt burn and control decks because it shuts off Grim Lavamancer & Snapcaster Mage as well!
- Cavern of Souls - Well, the only thing I can think of better than a 4cmc 6/6 flyer is an uncouterable one
- Ghost Quarter - Because nobody likes Tron and Eldrazi decks! They can piss off, I want to be the only deck playing fatties in my game
- Miren, the Moaning Well - This is an amazing utility land for the deck, being able to gain you chunks of life in a pinch, or just winning the game if an Abyssal Persecutor did his work for the game
- Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Given the fact that we have quite a few permanents of the same color that are pretty hard to get off the table, Nykthos is an obvious choice. Occasionally lets you dump Demon of Death's Gate onto the battlefield, but more usually activates Sickening Shoal without having to burn a card on their bigger stuff
- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - the main reason we get to run so many goodies in our land package that tap for colorless, because it lets everything tap for black! co-MVP land with Miren for sure
- Abyssal Persecutor - Best creature in the deck, with a big drawback obviously. We have so many ways to get rid of him though (9!) so you can pretty easily put him to sleep when he did his thing
- Desecration Demon - Our second 4cmc 6/6 flyer, he plays quite a bit different but is still a load to deal with. He has added value when he gets larger from your opponent's choice to sac a creature, and you can start drawing upwards of 7 and gaining 7 life with our sacrifice packages
- Master of the Feast - a bit smaller, and a 3cmc guy with probably (?) the biggest drawback for a creature in the deck, but sometimes a 5/5 flyer on turn 3 is enough to seal the deal. He can also get cashed in with your sac package to recoup the advantage he gives the other player
- Demon of Death's Gate - Now he may look silly at first, but trust me if I'm somehow hardcasting this guy (outside of a Nykthos occasionally), I have already lost that game. He is there mostly to be cheated in with Bitterblossom, sac'ing a Persecutor, or a Sickening Shoal target. He's all utility baby! Quite often have I turn 4 Persecutor, turn 5 sac 3 BB tokens to make this bad boy, and Gotten rid of him to a Disciple of Bolas to take me way out of kill range AND draw NINE cards. Don't knock it til you try it!
- Disciple of Bolas - Who doesn't love some hard value when you're really looking for an answer? Look no further! Don't like your opponent drawing off Master of the Feast anymore? Well this is your card to go to. At worst we'ere talking about drawing 5 and gaining 5. That's a big advantage. If I use this on a BB token I wanna scoop anyways tbh
- Disfigure - Can't hurt to have a 1cmc removal spell for the little guys! I have also used it to get rid of some indestructible creatures post-combat from time to time
- Nameless Inversion - This is a sweet, sweet card for the deck. Not only does it act as a kill spell (Also ignoring indestructible), it can count as a pump spell for all the huge creatures in the deck as an added "Bolt" to their life total
- Sickening Shoal - This is what I like to call the blowout card, versus decks like infect and certain aggro decks as well. It's "free", and can take care of any creatures with indestructible (Looking at you Eldrazi bastards). Makes a very nice card to have Death's Gate get pitched to
- Inquisition of Kozilek - Discard is a great way to start the game, and this might be the best in the format. Even against Tron and Eldrazi-X decks, I'm fine grabbing an Expedition Map or Heartless Summoning because that might just win you the game against some of their hands!
- Thoughtseize - More discard! This one can hit any nonland though, at the cost of some life. Getting rid of anything you don't like that they have in their hands is too good to pass up
- Bitterblossom - Gotta love this one. Cheap, efficient, and an enabler for Demon of Death's Gate, it does a lot. It also gives you tons of blockers while your big guys do their thing. The life loss can be gotten back pretty easily with our sac packages, so it's not a big threat to kill you in MOST cases
- Liliana of the Veil - Not much needs to be said about Lily I don't think! However it does have some interactions with the deck that should be mentioned. For example, if you have her and Master of the Feast in hand, cast the one you don't care about as much first. Let them kill it, then drop the other. They kind of non-bo together, so it's best to only have one or the other out and maybe use the other as a sickening shoal target. She also can help you sac Persecutor, which is a big bonus!
- Grafted Wargear - My personal favorite card in the deck, it does tons! Sac Persecutor? Check. Turn BB tokens into super-Insectile Aberrations? Check that too. Make any other fatty even beefier? Cha-check. Give you some FREE equip to draw even more cards or gain even more life from Miren, the Moaning Well or Disciple of Bolas? Check-a-mundo baby! It does everything. 10/10
I'll make a "card choices" section for the sideboard later, but here's a current list I'm going with:
Okay, so what are some bad choices then? Surely not nameless inversion as its a kill spell AND a pump spell in the deck. Also, Death's Gate is never getting cast normally, it's there for bitterblossom, another way to sac persecutor, or a sickening shoal target. Also, I'm gonna run a high number of 4 drops when they have 6 power and toughness to go along with flying and or trample. That's a pretty low buy in cost for what you get back
Grafted Wargear either makes your demons even bigger, gives a way to sac persecutor, or lets you play a fun game of making a suped up Insectile Abberation each turn with blossom
Oh hey look, some actually constructive criticism! I forgot people had tact anymore. First off, thanks for the input!
Anyways, so I tried playing with mind stone and heartless summoning, but I always felt in my mind "if only I played a little more disruption early". Because with those 4 slots, you lose quite a bit of your spell package. Since Desecration Demon does have a pretty big drawback against certain decks, I felt it's just a better choice to play a control deck the first 3 turns essentially, clearing out anything they do and hit their hand a bit, then turn the corner turn 4 and become the beatdown deck with hard to deal with, fast clock threats. Death's Gate I chose to run mainboard because it gives you some added versatility for your other cards, as it is a sac outlet in a way, but in hand it basically makes anything short of an undamaged ulamog just dead with shoal, and against some infect decks that works very well since they see you tapped out and go all in. Main reason for the last point is 2 colors would be somewhat difficult with the manabase, and to be honest I'm not a huge fan of the 5 drop ones.. any suggestions on the 5 drops though? Haha
Mark of the oni might be something to consider as a cheap way to steal creatures. I don't know if you're looking to be super competitive but Kamigawa block had many cards that interact with demons as well as cheap demons such as raving oni-slave. seizan, perverter of truth is a cheap fatty and draws you two cards a turn, but also for your opponent too. I might post a few more suggestions later on.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
Right, the main reason I steered clear from most of the kamigawa block stuff is their drawbacks usually feel too large! The reason the demons I picked are in there is because they have the best drawbacks for me to deal with, to go along with their efficient bodies. I'll think about Mark of the Oni, but I'm not sure what I'd use it against yet
Actually, I have a pretty good game versus the tron and eldrazi decks. My disruption might only hit a threat or two, but IoK taking a heartless summoning is nice, and I'll cash it in on an expedition map if I can as well no problem. My guys are generally about as big, and I can go over their creatures with flying on my side. It might look like it on paper and to that I agree, but playing it, if you know what's in the deck it's not a big deal going against large midrange decks
I would also suggest Liliana of the Veil. She would make this deck much stronger. I would drop the sickening shoal, I don't think it's really that good to be honest.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
I could see maybe cutting the Xathrid Demon and an Inquisition of Kozilek for Liliana of the Veil. I know Sickening Shoal may seem bad but trust me it leads to so many blowouts against a deck like infect, and can save you in a pinch against affinity game 1 when they spend their black mana to instant speed equip plating and things like that. Not too comfortable using those slots for Slaughter Pact because of the fact that those decks can be putting me to a critically low life total (or dead) before I'd have the mana for the pact
How do you like Master of the Feast? To me he seems weak, giving your opponents cards is pretty bad in modern & runs counter to your discard spells & Liliana if you run her. It also takes Lilly's spot on the curve, and Lilly seems so much stronger while also giving you a way to sac your Persecutor.
Also, you could consider Gatekeeper of Malakir; the card's proven to be effective, gives you something to do early, lets you sac Persecutor, and maxes on devotion for Nykthos.
Also, I'll echo what's been said about Xathrid Demon, it seems very slow & a top end of 4x Persecutors & 4x Desecrations is more than enough game-ending power imo. I do sort of not hate Demon of Death's Gate though, now that I view it as a trick/ utility card rather than a 9-cost spell; it gets cheated out with BB tokens, eats a Persecutor occasionally, COULD get ramped out with Nykthos (least likely) and no matter what it pitches to Shoal & Lilly.
You could also consider Wrench Mind; I think discard is the strongest way to get an edge in mono-black in modern since the threats you're drawing are very fast and hard to deal with (making you favored in a topdeck war). Not a lot of decks can deal with Inquisition >> Wrench Mind >> Liliana >> Persecutor. You could also look at some maindeck sweeper effects like Flaying Tendrils or Drown in Sorrow, these don't really hinder you at all but give you a stronger G1 vs aggro.
Lastly, you might want to retool your removal; currently none of your kill spells can get a Persecutor off of the table (except Shoal, but you'd also need one of the 3 cards that are large enough to get -6/-6). Liliana or Gatekeeper could help with that.
Master usually does me pretty well actually, because most decks don't have too good of a way to deal with him outside of abrupt decay/path, which to me is fine because if they burn a path on him, I get a land out of it along with -1 Path do deal with my other threats. His card draw for them is a drawback of course, but not many decks can keep pace with a 3 mana 5/5 that's hitting them through the air unless their packing a removal spell in their hand, and again, I think that's fine also. The ability doesn't go off until MY upkeep, so they also have to hold their mana open for it to be profitable for them, so things like maelstrom pulse just sort of 1 for 1 him. Having said that, he is obviously the worst beater in the deck, but I think a turn 3 beater that sets a nice clock up is completely fine. At worst, I'm gonna break even with them if they don't remove it because I'll pitch him to disciple for a draw 5 gain 5 combo. Matchups like Zoo and affinity are actually pretty easy if you get the discard --> removal spell --> master of the feast --> D-demon/Persecutor runs out of the gate! Affinity has a hard time with your creature package especially because, again all of your guys have flying
So here's an updated version of the list, cutting the Xathrid and an Inquisition for Liliana. While I do think something like a sweeper would be nice mainboard, I'm not sure I feel safe cutting any of the cards because the targeted removal really does what we want it to game one; be cheap, be efficient, and get rid of their best early threats. I am pretty confident that my creatures on turn 3 and 4, and proceeding will be better than theirs (Even tron has a big problem dealing with flying 5/5s and 6/6s
Sorry for the double post, but worked on the first post in the thread with card choices and why! Will add potential cards section and the sideboard later, but I've got all the cards in the current list accounted for!
Notes: PLEASE include additional win routes besides the beatdown. I think what your deck lacks if at all is reach. So far your game plan is consistent in what it wants to do but I am sure it could be better with the inclusion of red. A good deck is born when the flavour is left behind. I'm not sure how far you can get on black alone. Nykthos seems a bit wierd in a deck with nearly no card draw. In Rakdos colors there's a lot to gain. Think about it.
I think I may end up doing something like
-1 Disfigure
+1 Smother/Inquisition of Kozilek (Depending on the meta I guess?)
And for the sideboard
-2 Ghost Quarter
+2 Rain of Tears
Main reason I don't play red, is because it's hard to support it in all honesty. Not only do you run so many colorless lands (Nykthos might be able to get cut, and you may not need 4 Caverns) but you really don't want to be running fetch lands at all. You already lower your life total a fair amount with your own cards as is against aggro decks, and I think fetches would put us in bolt range MUCH easier against them. For the tools you gain with red, you also get that much weaker versus certain decks :/
That would be a good burn spell in the deck, but I'm not sure it does enough otherwise to warrant an inclusion, sadly. It just doesn't really help any weaker matchups, and doesn't really make the good matchups much better either
I've been playtesting this deck quite a bit, and I guess the weaker matchups (game one, at least) are Affinity and Burn. Granted, the tools to beat them are in the original 60, but that's a matter of drawing them. In the board are mostly cards to combat those decks, while also having some more tools against some of the larger Tier One decks
- All of your creatures aside from Disciple of Bolas having evasion is a large bonus to this deck as well!
- Bojuka Bog - Pretty good way to get rid of the yard, which is nice versus decks like dredgevine. Can hurt burn and control decks because it shuts off Grim Lavamancer & Snapcaster Mage as well!
- Cavern of Souls - Well, the only thing I can think of better than a 4cmc 6/6 flyer is an uncouterable one
- Ghost Quarter - Because nobody likes Tron and Eldrazi decks! They can piss off, I want to be the only deck playing fatties in my game
- Miren, the Moaning Well - This is an amazing utility land for the deck, being able to gain you chunks of life in a pinch, or just winning the game if an Abyssal Persecutor did his work for the game
- Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Given the fact that we have quite a few permanents of the same color that are pretty hard to get off the table, Nykthos is an obvious choice. Occasionally lets you dump Demon of Death's Gate onto the battlefield, but more usually activates Sickening Shoal without having to burn a card on their bigger stuff
- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - the main reason we get to run so many goodies in our land package that tap for colorless, because it lets everything tap for black! co-MVP land with Miren for sure
- Desecration Demon - Our second 4cmc 6/6 flyer, he plays quite a bit different but is still a load to deal with. He has added value when he gets larger from your opponent's choice to sac a creature, and you can start drawing upwards of 7 and gaining 7 life with our sacrifice packages
- Master of the Feast - a bit smaller, and a 3cmc guy with probably (?) the biggest drawback for a creature in the deck, but sometimes a 5/5 flyer on turn 3 is enough to seal the deal. He can also get cashed in with your sac package to recoup the advantage he gives the other player
- Demon of Death's Gate - Now he may look silly at first, but trust me if I'm somehow hardcasting this guy (outside of a Nykthos occasionally), I have already lost that game. He is there mostly to be cheated in with Bitterblossom, sac'ing a Persecutor, or a Sickening Shoal target. He's all utility baby! Quite often have I turn 4 Persecutor, turn 5 sac 3 BB tokens to make this bad boy, and Gotten rid of him to a Disciple of Bolas to take me way out of kill range AND draw NINE cards. Don't knock it til you try it!
- Disciple of Bolas - Who doesn't love some hard value when you're really looking for an answer? Look no further! Don't like your opponent drawing off Master of the Feast anymore? Well this is your card to go to. At worst we'ere talking about drawing 5 and gaining 5. That's a big advantage. If I use this on a BB token I wanna scoop anyways tbh
- Nameless Inversion - This is a sweet, sweet card for the deck. Not only does it act as a kill spell (Also ignoring indestructible), it can count as a pump spell for all the huge creatures in the deck as an added "Bolt" to their life total
- Sickening Shoal - This is what I like to call the blowout card, versus decks like infect and certain aggro decks as well. It's "free", and can take care of any creatures with indestructible (Looking at you Eldrazi bastards). Makes a very nice card to have Death's Gate get pitched to
- Inquisition of Kozilek - Discard is a great way to start the game, and this might be the best in the format. Even against Tron and Eldrazi-X decks, I'm fine grabbing an Expedition Map or Heartless Summoning because that might just win you the game against some of their hands!
- Thoughtseize - More discard! This one can hit any nonland though, at the cost of some life. Getting rid of anything you don't like that they have in their hands is too good to pass up
- Bitterblossom - Gotta love this one. Cheap, efficient, and an enabler for Demon of Death's Gate, it does a lot. It also gives you tons of blockers while your big guys do their thing. The life loss can be gotten back pretty easily with our sac packages, so it's not a big threat to kill you in MOST cases
- Liliana of the Veil - Not much needs to be said about Lily I don't think! However it does have some interactions with the deck that should be mentioned. For example, if you have her and Master of the Feast in hand, cast the one you don't care about as much first. Let them kill it, then drop the other. They kind of non-bo together, so it's best to only have one or the other out and maybe use the other as a sickening shoal target. She also can help you sac Persecutor, which is a big bonus!
- Grafted Wargear - My personal favorite card in the deck, it does tons! Sac Persecutor? Check. Turn BB tokens into super-Insectile Aberrations? Check that too. Make any other fatty even beefier? Cha-check. Give you some FREE equip to draw even more cards or gain even more life from Miren, the Moaning Well or Disciple of Bolas? Check-a-mundo baby! It does everything. 10/10
I'll make a "card choices" section for the sideboard later, but here's a current list I'm going with:
2x Bojuka Bog
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Miren, the Moaning Well
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
9x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
4x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Demon of Death's Gate
4x Desecration Demon
1x Disciple of Bolas
4x Master of the Feast
1x Disfigure
2x Nameless Inversion
2x Sickening Shoal
3x Smother
Sorceries
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
Enchantments
4x Bitterblossom
Planeswalkers
2x Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts
2x Grafted Wargear
2x Cranial Extraction --- Eldrazi,other Midrange
2x Devour Flesh --- Infect, Hyper Aggro
2x Flaying Tendrils --- Affinity, Aggro
2x Ghost Quarter --- Eldrazi, Affinity
2x Sickening Shoal --- Infect (?)
4x Sun Droplet --- Burn, some aggro
1x Thoughtseize --- Combo, some Control
Thanks to EvincarCrovax and maverickzero for the Liliana suggestions, idk what I was thinking lmao
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Grafted Wargear either makes your demons even bigger, gives a way to sac persecutor, or lets you play a fun game of making a suped up Insectile Abberation each turn with blossom
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Anyways, so I tried playing with mind stone and heartless summoning, but I always felt in my mind "if only I played a little more disruption early". Because with those 4 slots, you lose quite a bit of your spell package. Since Desecration Demon does have a pretty big drawback against certain decks, I felt it's just a better choice to play a control deck the first 3 turns essentially, clearing out anything they do and hit their hand a bit, then turn the corner turn 4 and become the beatdown deck with hard to deal with, fast clock threats. Death's Gate I chose to run mainboard because it gives you some added versatility for your other cards, as it is a sac outlet in a way, but in hand it basically makes anything short of an undamaged ulamog just dead with shoal, and against some infect decks that works very well since they see you tapped out and go all in. Main reason for the last point is 2 colors would be somewhat difficult with the manabase, and to be honest I'm not a huge fan of the 5 drop ones.. any suggestions on the 5 drops though? Haha
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Also, you could consider Gatekeeper of Malakir; the card's proven to be effective, gives you something to do early, lets you sac Persecutor, and maxes on devotion for Nykthos.
Also, I'll echo what's been said about Xathrid Demon, it seems very slow & a top end of 4x Persecutors & 4x Desecrations is more than enough game-ending power imo. I do sort of not hate Demon of Death's Gate though, now that I view it as a trick/ utility card rather than a 9-cost spell; it gets cheated out with BB tokens, eats a Persecutor occasionally, COULD get ramped out with Nykthos (least likely) and no matter what it pitches to Shoal & Lilly.
You could also consider Wrench Mind; I think discard is the strongest way to get an edge in mono-black in modern since the threats you're drawing are very fast and hard to deal with (making you favored in a topdeck war). Not a lot of decks can deal with Inquisition >> Wrench Mind >> Liliana >> Persecutor. You could also look at some maindeck sweeper effects like Flaying Tendrils or Drown in Sorrow, these don't really hinder you at all but give you a stronger G1 vs aggro.
Lastly, you might want to retool your removal; currently none of your kill spells can get a Persecutor off of the table (except Shoal, but you'd also need one of the 3 cards that are large enough to get -6/-6). Liliana or Gatekeeper could help with that.
So here's an updated version of the list, cutting the Xathrid and an Inquisition for Liliana. While I do think something like a sweeper would be nice mainboard, I'm not sure I feel safe cutting any of the cards because the targeted removal really does what we want it to game one; be cheap, be efficient, and get rid of their best early threats. I am pretty confident that my creatures on turn 3 and 4, and proceeding will be better than theirs (Even tron has a big problem dealing with flying 5/5s and 6/6s
2x Bojuka Bog
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Miren, the Moaning Well
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
9x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
4x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Demon of Death's Gate
4x Desecration Demon
1x Disciple of Bolas
4x Master of the Feast
1x Disfigure
2x Nameless Inversion
2x Sickening Shoal
3x Smother
Sorceries
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
Enchantments
4x Bitterblossom
Planeswalkers
2x Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts
2x Grafted Wargear
2x Cranial Extraction --- Eldrazi,other Midrange
2x Devour Flesh --- Infect, Hyper Aggro
2x Flaying Tendrils --- Affinity, Aggro
2x Ghost Quarter --- Eldrazi, Affinity
2x Sickening Shoal --- Infect (?)
4x Sun Droplet --- Burn, some aggro
1x Thoughtseize --- Combo, some Control
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
I think I may end up doing something like
-1 Disfigure
+1 Smother/Inquisition of Kozilek (Depending on the meta I guess?)
And for the sideboard
-2 Ghost Quarter
+2 Rain of Tears
Main reason I don't play red, is because it's hard to support it in all honesty. Not only do you run so many colorless lands (Nykthos might be able to get cut, and you may not need 4 Caverns) but you really don't want to be running fetch lands at all. You already lower your life total a fair amount with your own cards as is against aggro decks, and I think fetches would put us in bolt range MUCH easier against them. For the tools you gain with red, you also get that much weaker versus certain decks :/
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought