I've played my list in 4 local tournies so far and have only lost 2 matches so far winning 3 of them for a 14-2 total record. No one here has eldrazi built though.
I've played my list in 4 local tournies so far and have only lost 2 matches so far winning 3 of them for a 14-2 total record. No one here has eldrazi built though.
..yeah, the deck performes very good in a meta without Twin/Eldrazi
But honestly we just do not have anything really good to stop the menace, besides Painter's Servant and/or Ensnaring Bridge. Everything else seems underwhelming. Even if you have a Spreading Seas it more than often is just not enough; it would need more than just one to stop the explosiveness of Eldrazi.
So I return with my question @all what is to do - do we need 4 Servants + something else in the SB to stand a chance ?? How would You prepare the SB for any upcoming GP/PPTQ ?
I've just been upping my number of Thoughtsieze and Damnation, but haven't been able to test it because no one wants to build it because they all think it's going to be banned.
I've just been upping my number of Thoughtsieze and Damnation, but haven't been able to test it because no one wants to build it because they all think it's going to be banned.
..hard to play those in the UWR build
I had to cut the v.Clique from the Main/SB since the card is just not doing enough atm and got Condemn + Ensnaring Bridge + Ghostly Prison in the SB for the Eldrazi Matchups. Any other thoughts on how to beat the menace??
The results of the last SCG are very scary. Basicly, even though there were 2 other decks in the top 8, the only 2 archetypes with overall winning records on day 2 were Eldrazi and Affinity and Hoogland's the only person to do consistently well with Kiki Chord which makes sense as he's been tuning it for the better part of the last year. Even if you design a deck to beat affinity and Eldrazi which isn't easy, you'll struggle to make day 2 vs everything else. The merfolk lists are an example of that. If you're trying to win, it looks like UW Eldrazi focused on the mirror with something like 3 Stony Silence and 3 Hyrkul's Recall in the board is the way to go.
The results of the last SCG are very scary. Basicly, even though there were 2 other decks in the top 8, the only 2 archetypes with overall winning records on day 2 were Eldrazi and Affinity and Hoogland's the only person to do consistently well with Kiki Chord which makes sense as he's been tuning it for the better part of the last year. Even if you design a deck to beat affinity and Eldrazi which isn't easy, you'll struggle to make day 2 vs everything else. The merfolk lists are an example of that. If you're trying to win, it looks like UW Eldrazi focused on the mirror with something like 3 Stony Silence and 3 Hyrkul's Recall in the board is the way to go.
..yeah this is my impression as well, that only Hoogland can really pilot that Kiki-Chord deck. He has tons of experience with it and by the speed of his plays I`m going to presume he knows all the possible lines with the deck very well.
Anyhow, back to our topic - I have moved 2 Condemn in the main, cutting 1 Path and 1 Helix, since I don`t really want to use Path on the 1st creature my opponent plays and the lifegain is not really an issue if I can combo out. This way I hope to increase the chance of winning against Eldrazi by 2-3% pre-board
One thing is if you want to avoid having to discard to take out smasher, etb abilities are the way to go. Journey to Nowhere and Shriekmaw are the two best respective choices at 2 mana, although Detention Sphere is probably better for 1 more. They are all sorcery speed, but I don't know of any instants outside of counterspells that can do it.
One thing is if you want to avoid having to discard to take out smasher, etb abilities are the way to go. Journey to Nowhere and Shriekmaw are the two best respective choices at 2 mana, although Detention Sphere is probably better for 1 more. They are all sorcery speed, but I don't know of any instants outside of counterspells that can do it.
.. instead of Journey to Nowhere I would rather board in Runed Halo to shut off all 4 copies of either TNS or Reality Smasher. Dealing with all 4 copies is by far the better option, also being able to prevent from getting targeted by Thought-Knot Seer.
Seems solid as long as you can make WW early. It's recommended to have 20 white sources for that.
..tested yesterday with a total of only 13 W sources over 20+ rounds and was always attentive if it would be a problem to have WW available until turn 3. Seems to me it is not really an issue as long as you have at least 1 fetchland in the starting hand. I will admit though it is much more difficult to cast Runed Halo right away on turn 2.
This decklist I am going to register for the GP. The Condemn are great since the combo doesn't care about the life-total of our opponents. Counters are indeed pretty week atm so I moved down to only the 4 pseudo-catch-all Leaks.
Thing acts like a Tarmogoyf in Temur versions, i.e. an alternate wincon. I like the fact Kiki can copy Awoken Horror for more rampage. On the other hand, Thing's not a great target for Resto.
The combo is cut to a 3-2 split since we have an alternate wincon and resto has fewer valuable targets. All in all, I dislike the 4-3 split.
That split gives me room for 2 Cryptic Commands, ideal in the deck, I have to say. I tried Ojutai's Command and the card was underwhelming: getting back Snap with all the mana tapped or a 0/4 Thing is bad, so only Kiki remained as a good target.
I choose Izzet Charm above Mana Leak because it can be played proactively to trigger Thing. The versatility of the spell both helps Thing and the combo (loot effect). I feel the card is perfect for this shell.
I show the SB to emphasize the idea I want more instants and sorceries rather than permanents, but I know I'm unaware of some MUs and what's best to improve them.
I've had only some testing and adjustments are required of course. Some thoughts of what I've tested.
Jace: Jace is surprising great in this deck. He can loot for answers early game or land drops. He's a great target for removal as a creature. Which is an awesome thing. Which means less removal for our key pieces such as Restoration angel, Kiki-Jiki or Deceiver Exarch. Then he also flips, which is value, flashbacks or weakening a creature.
Declaration in Stone: I only run one. The reason is that I would rather draw into it if needed. I use Paths and Bolts for early creatures. Declaration in Stone is for a bigger board and it could wipe out tokens, without giving investigate. Or hey it could take out 2 Goyfs. Giving an opponent investigate is not too bad. Depending on the deck.
Kiki-Jiki: Now i'm not sure whether 3 or 2 is the correct amount. For now 3 seems like a good number. And I've been able to combo off him. I feel like if I shave off one Kiki, then getting it would be ablot more inconsistent. Further testing will be required.
Future:
Pact of Negation: I've been thinking of replacing one cryptic for a Pact. So that I could protect the combo when going off. I believe tapping out and opponent will suspect a pact. If I can protect the combo then I win. It doesn't matter about paying the cost next turn, because there will not be a next turn.
I need to work out how to deal with a Tron match up. Any thoughts on this would be great!
So I've been playing a killer list for Jeskai Kiki Control. A friend and I have been testing it on untap.in and have done really well. Just to put out a few things:
Nahiri, the Harbinger is extremely powerful. It does everything a control combo deck would want it to do, including a plus that filters cards, a powerful minus that exiles things, and an ult that finds your missing combo piece. It's been amazing every time I've actually been able to cast it.
Wall of Omens is fine. It's a good card. However, I don't like more than 2-3 main. I'd rather remove the stuff from the battlefield.
Ancestral Visions is perfect. It's really good and works with GDD. Drawing cards is amazing. Drawing three when you're already drawing out the game is better than serum visions.
Anger of the Gods destroys a lot of decks. My current only loss is to hatebears and even then you don't normally have 3 lands that don't tap for red, a Kiki and Nahiri in hand, then draw Kiki, Resto, Kiki, Nahiri, Resto before you die. That card would stomp hatebears, affinity, and a variety of other swarm strategies. It also kills almost no creatures you play.
In general, I also don't particularily like counters in the deck. A few are great, but I feel Remand and Cryptic Command are not anywhere close to where Kiki Control wants to be. Triple blue and Triple red are really hard to get, and remand just stalls when I could actually kill stuff.
I've had only some testing and adjustments are required of course. Some thoughts of what I've tested.
Jace: Jace is surprising great in this deck. He can loot for answers early game or land drops. He's a great target for removal as a creature. Which is an awesome thing. Which means less removal for our key pieces such as Restoration angel, Kiki-Jiki or Deceiver Exarch. Then he also flips, which is value, flashbacks or weakening a creature.
Declaration in Stone: I only run one. The reason is that I would rather draw into it if needed. I use Paths and Bolts for early creatures. Declaration in Stone is for a bigger board and it could wipe out tokens, without giving investigate. Or hey it could take out 2 Goyfs. Giving an opponent investigate is not too bad. Depending on the deck.
Kiki-Jiki: Now i'm not sure whether 3 or 2 is the correct amount. For now 3 seems like a good number. And I've been able to combo off him. I feel like if I shave off one Kiki, then getting it would be ablot more inconsistent. Further testing will be required.
Future:
Pact of Negation: I've been thinking of replacing one cryptic for a Pact. So that I could protect the combo when going off. I believe tapping out and opponent will suspect a pact. If I can protect the combo then I win. It doesn't matter about paying the cost next turn, because there will not be a next turn.
I need to work out how to deal with a Tron match up. Any thoughts on this would be great!
1: Tron sucks. Post bans it's not as much of a trouble. PtE their wurmcoil, combo out fast. Counter Karn/Ugin. You'll survive. Probably. Hopefully
2: Pact sounds not great? I don't like the sound of it but 1 may be good.
3: Declaration in Stone looks very interesting for the deck and may be the replacement for Lightning Helix.
4: Jace seems fine? Dunno. He does lots, but we already have Snap, and I'm doing other things in the walker department currently
5: Problems I have with the list are pretty much just Exarch and maybe Remand/Cryptic for reasons above.
have any of you toyed with just straight up UR Kiki Control lately?
There was a 5:0 list from a modern league last week on the 22nd but it disappeared lol.
The main benefits would be a smoother mana base and access to blood moons main and / or side the biggest downside would be worse creatures for when you don´t combo and worse removal.
What i am imagining is a blue moon shell with pia and kiran, batterskull and some of the lesser burn spells (burst lightning etc) removed in favor of the 10 combo pieces.
The blue moon shell would help tons vs Jund / junk aswell as 3 color control decks (especially esper for obvious reasons) but it would make the deck weaker to burn and other hyper aggro decks.
Will post a decklist once i am done tinkering.
thoughts?
..were you able to find that 5:0 list from the league?
sounds quite interesting, but hard to imagine the combo in the blue moon shell - how long do we have to wait to see the deck list ?
..how about adding Nahiri to this archetype, so we use less cards for the combo, but add a very strong Planeswalker who may search out either combo piece and also provide card selection in the meantime.
What do you think ?
..how about adding Nahiri to this archetype, so we use less cards for the combo, but add a very strong Planeswalker who may search out either combo piece and also provide card selection in the meantime.
What do you think ?
..yip, think 3 Nahiri are a good number in this list. I like the interaction with Dark Dwellers and Ancestral Vision + Kiki on top for even more value, but it feels like there are too many 5-drops in your list. I don' t like that if it will result in more mulligans, which makes additional mulligan decisions even harder..
What is the reason behind cutting Cryptics and/or sweepers in the MD?
This is a sorta weird list. I'm trying to kill things, land something big, and snowball out of control, hopefully with a Kiki Combo. I could probably go to 2 Kiki, but that defeats the point of having more than 1, or 1 and 4 Nahiri, but I'm not a fan of that route when I poked at it for a while. I'm playing the proactive deck, not the reactive deck. I've got too many threats to be reactive, so I play a lot.
Anyways, the decks I'm tuning at the moment are decks with 4x Storm Crow in modern and Legacy as my main projects. Still undefeated with both.
After a lot of discussion and testing I have found this version to be running really good. It has more than one route to victory and is not dead to the infinite life gain combo. Main wincon is Nahiri and pretty much all the other cards support that game plan, but even without Nahiri you can still finish the game with Snapcasters and Colonnades.
Modern: UW Spirits
But honestly we just do not have anything really good to stop the menace, besides Painter's Servant and/or Ensnaring Bridge. Everything else seems underwhelming. Even if you have a Spreading Seas it more than often is just not enough; it would need more than just one to stop the explosiveness of Eldrazi.
So I return with my question @all what is to do - do we need 4 Servants + something else in the SB to stand a chance ?? How would You prepare the SB for any upcoming GP/PPTQ ?
Modern: UW Spirits
I had to cut the v.Clique from the Main/SB since the card is just not doing enough atm and got Condemn + Ensnaring Bridge + Ghostly Prison in the SB for the Eldrazi Matchups. Any other thoughts on how to beat the menace??
Modern: UW Spirits
Anyhow, back to our topic - I have moved 2 Condemn in the main, cutting 1 Path and 1 Helix, since I don`t really want to use Path on the 1st creature my opponent plays and the lifegain is not really an issue if I can combo out. This way I hope to increase the chance of winning against Eldrazi by 2-3% pre-board
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: UW Spirits
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Restoration Angel
1 Pestermite
3 Wall of Omens
3 Kiki-Jiki, the Mirror Breaker
Spells
4 Serum Visions
4 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Condemn
2 Electrolyze
2 Lightning Helix
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Wear // Tear
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Celestial Purge
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Pay No Heed
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Stony Silence
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Spells:
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Izzet Charm
2 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Spellskite
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Wear // Tear
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Radiant Flames
1 Negate
1 Rending Volley
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Timely Reinforcements
Thing acts like a Tarmogoyf in Temur versions, i.e. an alternate wincon. I like the fact Kiki can copy Awoken Horror for more rampage. On the other hand, Thing's not a great target for Resto.
The combo is cut to a 3-2 split since we have an alternate wincon and resto has fewer valuable targets. All in all, I dislike the 4-3 split.
That split gives me room for 2 Cryptic Commands, ideal in the deck, I have to say. I tried Ojutai's Command and the card was underwhelming: getting back Snap with all the mana tapped or a 0/4 Thing is bad, so only Kiki remained as a good target.
I choose Izzet Charm above Mana Leak because it can be played proactively to trigger Thing. The versatility of the spell both helps Thing and the combo (loot effect). I feel the card is perfect for this shell.
I show the SB to emphasize the idea I want more instants and sorceries rather than permanents, but I know I'm unaware of some MUs and what's best to improve them.
Any help is appreciated !
Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL04lbfeNAaS830ZWcpGOH_rzY-MhPLQFQ&v=iPAs32LyuWA
I've made a few adjustments.
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
1 Deceiver Exarcg
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Restoration Angel
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Non-Creatures:
3 Lightning Bolts
3 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
1 Declaration in Stone
3 Remand
1 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
2 Arid Mesa
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Islands
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Wandering Fumerole
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Spellskite
2 Dispel
2 Wear//Tear
2 NEgate
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Wrath of God
I've had only some testing and adjustments are required of course. Some thoughts of what I've tested.
Jace: Jace is surprising great in this deck. He can loot for answers early game or land drops. He's a great target for removal as a creature. Which is an awesome thing. Which means less removal for our key pieces such as Restoration angel, Kiki-Jiki or Deceiver Exarch. Then he also flips, which is value, flashbacks or weakening a creature.
Declaration in Stone: I only run one. The reason is that I would rather draw into it if needed. I use Paths and Bolts for early creatures. Declaration in Stone is for a bigger board and it could wipe out tokens, without giving investigate. Or hey it could take out 2 Goyfs. Giving an opponent investigate is not too bad. Depending on the deck.
Kiki-Jiki: Now i'm not sure whether 3 or 2 is the correct amount. For now 3 seems like a good number. And I've been able to combo off him. I feel like if I shave off one Kiki, then getting it would be ablot more inconsistent. Further testing will be required.
Future:
Pact of Negation: I've been thinking of replacing one cryptic for a Pact. So that I could protect the combo when going off. I believe tapping out and opponent will suspect a pact. If I can protect the combo then I win. It doesn't matter about paying the cost next turn, because there will not be a next turn.
I need to work out how to deal with a Tron match up. Any thoughts on this would be great!
Nahiri, the Harbinger is extremely powerful. It does everything a control combo deck would want it to do, including a plus that filters cards, a powerful minus that exiles things, and an ult that finds your missing combo piece. It's been amazing every time I've actually been able to cast it.
Wall of Omens is fine. It's a good card. However, I don't like more than 2-3 main. I'd rather remove the stuff from the battlefield.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers is amazing. That's all I've got to say.
Ancestral Visions is perfect. It's really good and works with GDD. Drawing cards is amazing. Drawing three when you're already drawing out the game is better than serum visions.
Anger of the Gods destroys a lot of decks. My current only loss is to hatebears and even then you don't normally have 3 lands that don't tap for red, a Kiki and Nahiri in hand, then draw Kiki, Resto, Kiki, Nahiri, Resto before you die. That card would stomp hatebears, affinity, and a variety of other swarm strategies. It also kills almost no creatures you play.
In general, I also don't particularily like counters in the deck. A few are great, but I feel Remand and Cryptic Command are not anywhere close to where Kiki Control wants to be. Triple blue and Triple red are really hard to get, and remand just stalls when I could actually kill stuff.
Lastly, you probably want my list
http://deckbox.org/sets/1392395
1: Tron sucks. Post bans it's not as much of a trouble. PtE their wurmcoil, combo out fast. Counter Karn/Ugin. You'll survive. Probably. Hopefully
2: Pact sounds not great? I don't like the sound of it but 1 may be good.
3: Declaration in Stone looks very interesting for the deck and may be the replacement for Lightning Helix.
4: Jace seems fine? Dunno. He does lots, but we already have Snap, and I'm doing other things in the walker department currently
5: Problems I have with the list are pretty much just Exarch and maybe Remand/Cryptic for reasons above.
sounds quite interesting, but hard to imagine the combo in the blue moon shell - how long do we have to wait to see the deck list ?
What do you think ?
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
2 Electrolyze
2 Lightning Helix
1 Cryptic Command
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Wear // Tear
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Celestial Purge
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Pay No Heed
1 Hurkyl`s Recall
1 Stony Silence
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
PS. the SB is just a collection of cards, not really focused on any metagame
I hadn't realized that it hadn't been updated on here to include Nahiri. Yup, my list uses it. Now a 3 of. http://deckbox.org/sets/1392395
I've been doing really well with the list, at least as well as can be expected. 5-2 is fine. I've not gotten games in with it lately.
What is the reason behind cutting Cryptics and/or sweepers in the MD?
Anyways, the decks I'm tuning at the moment are decks with 4x Storm Crow in modern and Legacy as my main projects. Still undefeated with both.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
Planeswalkers
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Spells
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
3 Electrolyze
3 Lightning Helix
1 Izzet Charm
2 Wear // Tear
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Celestial Purge|Textless
1 Negate|Textless
1 Dispel
1 Pay No Heed
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Stony Silence
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus