With the banning of Splinter Twin, a hole has been left in the meta game. This makes room for a more controlling version of the deck that makes better use of Kiki-Jiki than it's predecessor did of Splinter Twin. A more controlling version is likely better due to Kiki being harder to cast than Twin. We can't threaten to combo until a turn later which is significant. We also don't want 4 copies of a difficult to cast 5 drop so switching from a tempo plan to a more controlling one makes sense. The base deck is still UR, but both Grixis and UWR have their merits. Both have premium removal and card advantage engines, but UWR is much better positioned to interact with creatures decks and burn and has a better aggro plan while Grixis excels at picking apart combo decks and has the better card advantage engine.
The Cards
Card Selection Serum Visions Played in both builds, this is the best card selection spell in Modern and a staple of any blue deck.
Remand The cantrip on this is not negligible and this provides great value against delve spells, flashbacked spells, and things like Nourishing Shoals which require an additional cost to play. The fact that it doesn't actually answer whatever it counters makes it poor in matchups like burn and affinity where they can often just cast the spell again that turn. It also loses value in Grixis where your plan B is grind them out.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Due to Grixis having discard and suite of more powerful noncreature spells, this powerhouse is much better in the grixis build and is ommited from UWR. His looting ability is great at sculpting your hand early and he is capable of winning games almost single-handedly after he flips.
Wall of OmensThe cantrip attached to a solid defensive body is great against any offensive strategy.
Removal Lightning Bolt A pillar of Modern, either taking care of early drops or going to the face, it is great in both versions.
Path to Exile The ability to cleanly answer nearly any creature is great, but giving them a land can be a real drawback. This can also be used to get a land if one of your own creatures is about to die or you don't need that wall as a blocker.
Electrolyze This card is at worst a cantrip and at best a 3 for one against decks with 1 toughness creatures.
TerminateWhile it costs an extra mana and doesn't exile, this cleanly answers most creatures you're likely to face with no drawback.
Kloghan's Command A beating vs Affinity and almost always a 2 for 1, this becomes an engine when combined with Jace and Snapcaster.
Damnation, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict With the meta going more towards creature decks with the rise of the Eldrazi, these cards become more important. Both Wrath and Verdict has their positives and negitives, but I personally favor Wrath because my local meta has more regenerating creatures than counterspells.
Counterspells and Discard Mana Leak Great early, this loses value late when they can afford to play around it. Forcing them to tap out against us can clear the way for the combo.
Spell Snare There are a lot of 2 mana spells in modern, but this can be dead at times and you don't want too many of them.
Dispel The vast majority of decks play instants and answering them for 1 blue is great value.
Cryptic Command So versitile and usually a 2 for 1, access to this adds a lot to both builds.
Inquisition of Kozilek The discard spell of choice with no drawback most of the time, but not hitting spells 4 or more can be an issue at times.
Thoughtsieze This hits everything, but 2 life can be a big deal against some of the decks out there so this is often better out of the sideboard.
Utility Creatures Snapcaster Mage One of the best 2 drops ever printed and one of the biggest draws to blue.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar 3 Creatures for 1 card and 2 fly. The fact that the thopters are colorless comes up against Etched Champion. This almost always trades for 2 cards.
Vendillion Clique This guy is very versatile, providing a good flying clock, taking your opponent's best card, or cycling one of your own dead cards.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang He makes a good impression of Tarmogoyf while also having the ability to create card advantage.
Combo Creatures Deciever Exarch A good blocker that can also tap an attacker, deny mana to the opponent, or give you an extra mana for the turn. This makes your combo immune to spellskite.
Pestermite A better clock than Exarch and it can trade with most commonly played flyers, this is weak to spellskite.
Restoration Angel This is a better clock than the other two, is immune to Bolt, Abrupt Decay, and Spellskite and usually provides value when you play it either saving a creature or rebuying an ETB trigger on one of your other creatures.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker This is the Splinter Twin replacement, but while it makes the combo more vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and costs an extra red, it has several advantages over the recently banned card as well. This can be played and combo off with a creature that has Summoning Sickness, doesn't open you u to 2 for 1s, and can provide value even if you don't have your other combo piece. There are even times a 2/2 hasty attacker is enough to get there.
Affinity: Very good for Grixis as Kloghan's Command is very strong against them, decent for UWR.
Burn: Unfavorable for Grixis, but Favorable for UWR. Kor Firewalker and friends make all the difference.
Tron: They have many must answer threats that remand sometimes just didn't cut it against with mana leak being better until they hit 10 mana. The combo gives us an edge here being able to just win on the spot. Fullminator Mage out of the board is an all-star.
GBx: Unfavorable for Grixis as Abrupt Decay is very good against Jace, although Kiki is better against it than Twin was. I'd assume it's even for UWR although I don't have experiance there.
Aggro: Favorable for Grixis Jace/Snap + lots of removal gives us an edge against everything but the fastest aggro decks and the combo can steal wins. Very Favorable for UWR.
Other combo decks: Favorable for Grixis as Discard and counter spells make their lives quite difficult. Even for UWR as they don't have as much non removal interaction.
I played the deck at a small local tournament today going 3-0 vs Grixis Control, Knightfall with maindeck Thrun, and GW Elves. It seemed very strong and Jace was key to winning several of the games. It's interesting to note that Kiki won me 3 games where twin wouldn't have done it: vs Spellskite, a game where a hasty 2/2 was enough, and where I drew the pestermite and was dead on my opponent's turn. So far, this version actually feels like an improvement over the stock Grixis Twin list.
I'm on the fence about a couple of things. I don't like Spell Snare much, but consensus seems to be that it's good, especially against aggro. I don't have any pure draw spells right now since they seem to be dead and I don't usually need them to close out the game anyway, but I'm open to Sphinx's Revelation, Jace's Ingenuity, Tidings, and Thoughtflare. Finally, I like Restoration Angel a lot, but 4 could be too much. I could cut 1 for the fourth Snapcaster, but when I was on 4 they seemed to sit in my hand a lot.
Edit: Oh, and I'm thinking about swapping the mainboard Clique for a Pia and Kiran Nalaar when I get my hands on one, simply because that seems like good value.
Modern WU UWx Control variants RU Affinity
Commander WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no" WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
I'm on the fence about a couple of things. I don't like Spell Snare much, but consensus seems to be that it's good, especially against aggro. I don't have any pure draw spells right now since they seem to be dead and I don't usually need them to close out the game anyway, but I'm open to Sphinx's Revelation, Jace's Ingenuity, Tidings, and Thoughtflare. Finally, I like Restoration Angel a lot, but 4 could be too much. I could cut 1 for the fourth Snapcaster, but when I was on 4 they seemed to sit in my hand a lot.
Edit: Oh, and I'm thinking about swapping the mainboard Clique for a Pia and Kiran Nalaar when I get my hands on one, simply because that seems like good value.
I feel you on the hostility over at UWR control thread, I have been a UWR Control thread poster and player the last year. I still stick with the Kiki-less build, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I think running Snare as a 1-of is not a problem (this was a question you posted on the UWR Control Thread), it has its uses, but I have tested Kiki to see how I liked a more combo deck, an I found that the snare was not as valuable for a few reasons, (1) there is creatures in the build which means there is less demand to counter creature 2-drops. (2) I think that a Dispel might work better as I think all competitive removal in the format is instant speed and protecting your creatures is much more important.
To your question regarding your draw engines, I found that between 3x Wall of Omens, 4x Remand (which I would recommend in this list, as this build is very similar I think in play style as twin, and is more of a tempo-control; aggro-control game plan. This makes the "timewalk" of an early turn or mid-game remand fantastic, which mana leak cant do), blinking Wall with Resto, and Electrolyze make adequate and continuous Card Advantage.
I dont think that your deck as enough instatnt/sorcery to warrant 4 Snaps, I think 3 is the sweet spot. Resto I think has so many uses in this type of deck (all the creatures have great EtB abilities and it is the other half of the Kiki combo that it warrants 4-of.
I like PKN as it lets the deck go wide efficiently without being linger souls. I have only limited testing with PKN but I do like it more than Clique, but I will be honest Clique has never been a favorite of mine unless I was using it to draw a card myself. I know this is not a common opinion regarding Clique but most decks are so redundant that drawing a new card for decks in modern is not as powerful as I hope it would be when I play it.
Hope this helps. I will probably keep an eye on this thread for the time being, because I do think there is something to be learned from Kiki Control. I think the issue on the forum is that there is really 2 breeds of Kiki, one is a combo-control deck with visions, no Cryptic Commands, etc. and others are control with a possible instant finish. These two decks have very different philosophies that conflict with one another, thus the tension.
Hello everyone, first time poster here. I have been lurking around the UWR control thread because I decided to dive into the Jeskai archetype, more specifically the Resto-Kiki combo, after the Twin banning. (May Splinter Twin rest in peace ) Though it seems that many of the posters there want to keep the thread just focused on pure control, which is fine I guess.
Anyways, after testing this deck for about over a week at my LGS I think this type of deck has real potential. I played against a lot of different types of decks like; Burn, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Goblins, Elves, Abzan and etc. Did not play against Tron or Eldrazi yet so I am not sure how the match up is. I wouldn't say I am an expert at piloting this deck, but I did definitely learned a lot.
This is my deck list that I have testing and I think I am going to make some changes.
I think Wall of Omens is not that really good here. Yes, it cantrips and is a 0/4 blocker, but the thing is that it can only be a blocker. A lot of times when I was playing I cast wall of omens on turn 2 or 3 and then it just sits there doing nothing. There were so many instances where I wished Wall of Omens was something else just so that I can attack and progress the game or it can trade with a creature instead of just bouncing off each other. Cantripping is nice and blinking with Resto is nice too, but I think that its is just to slow and doesn't really progress the game.
So instead I think that maybe Kitchen Finks could replace Wall of Omens. Kitchen Finks does not cantrip, but it does gain you some life, which can be huge against aggressive decks, and its a resilient attacker and blocker that can put some pressure on the opponent. It also provides some nice synergy with Resto and/or Kiki. Though the double white could potentially be an issue.
Geist of Saint Traft is an option as well, since it can provide a fast clock, but I think Geist is more vulnerable than Kitchen Finks. It can easily be blocked by so many creatures and does not have an ETB effect, so it does not synergize well with Resto/Kiki. Because of this I think Kitchen Finks is the superior option.
Considering that I am going to lose some card draw without wall of omens I think I am going to cut Dispel and Sphinx and put in 2 Think Twice for some card advantage. Maybe cutting dispel is a mistake, but I seen a lot of successful lists without it so I am willing to try not playing it. Sphinx's Revelation is I think a fairly easy cut because it is such a late game card and often times it is just a dead card in my hand.
So, those are my thoughts about this deck after play testing for a short while. Any constructive criticism would be well appreciated. Thanks for reading.
Commenting about Wall of Omens and Finks. While I agree Finks is great, it's not a replacement for Omens. Omens is the Think Twice card in the deck. You need cantrips like Omens and Remand to pull the deck into the mid and late game.
Yeah, I seriously considered UWR, but I really love kologhans and discard + Jace, but both have their strengths and UWR is probably better for my aggro heavy meta. I'll expand the primer for both.
ctpnwright: I think I agree on your analysis for the most part. I'll run the Dispel over the Spell Snare, especially since the removal and creatures we get to run are hopefully sufficient to protect ourselves from 2-drop creatures. Regarding the counterspells, I can't make myself cut the Mana Leaks, as awkward as they are sometimes. I think I'll try flipping my 3-2 split in favor of Remand, and see how that works.
Voltage: Please don't think we're trying to hijack your thread! As we mentioned, it's getting a bit hairy over in the UWR Control thread, so we're trying to get some more action going on over here.
If you do update the primer, I highly recommend reading the articles by Shaun McLaren on the UWR version:
I like how your list seems to be the spiritual successor to Grixis Twin. Coming from the UWR perspective, I think we can get additional insight from both sides.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern WU UWx Control variants RU Affinity
Commander WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no" WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
lands are still a bit of a mess and i'm trying out reflector mage because it feels like she swings tempo so favorably for you, especially with resto. most of the one of creatures are for resto shenanigans. i think 2 electrolyze might be too much but if bw eldrazi is a thing, it'll be useful for lingering souls.
sideboard has a lot of one ofs as well which i am quite fond of because snapcaster gives us virtual extra copies and the creatures can get double value from resto and kiki. i want to fit a spellskite or two into it but don't know what to cut; maybe the finks?.
i really think that a deck can function similarly to how twin did in the tempo role with a combo back up. the new combo is in a similar position as the old imo. gets around spellskite and decay if using resto in exchange for it being more vulnerable to bolt. the big losses to the deck as a whole is that it's a turn slower and you can do less tricks with untapping your own mana but it's still almost all instant speed so it feels similar based on the testing, all be it not much, that i've been able to do.
The only thing I see is that everyone else is playing 2 and I just don't think you'll see Kiki often enough. Kiki-Chord plays 2, but they also havev 4 Chord. That said, it is easier playing more of them with Jace and Kloghan's Command as you can discard it early and get it back later.
Two may not be the right number. I suppose it depends on how fast you want to find him. The CMC, legendary status, and triple R, make drawing multiples in the wrong spot pretty bad though. I think with as much cycling cards, Wall, Remand, Electrolyze, Cryptic, and Snapcaster to flash them back, we should be able to dig through the deck pretty quickly. Later game, a decent Sphinx's Rev should do the trick.
Card explanation
3 colonnade - since i only have 24 lands, i want to reduce the probability of dropping 2 consecutive cipt lands
3 sulfur falls - dont hav cascade bluffs yet
3 exarch - while it is nice to have a card draw from wall of omens, i prefer to have a flash creature that taps attacker and can kill an x/1 creature. Also give em an earlier burden if i have em or not.
Tested it against gw hatebears and is favorable even postboard
Im not sure though if ill add a 25th land, or replace serum visions. Sideboard is still a work in progress
Ram3ses- While you are running the playset of Serum Visions to back it up, I'm a little wary of the Sphinx's Rev, especially with only 24 lands. I recommend swapping it for a mainboard sweeper- either Anger or Verdict. I think Rev is rather mediocre right now, and we don't need it as bad as dedicated control decks. I also recommend finding some room for Lightning Helix, as it's pretty good with all the aggro decks running around. Maybe cut a Leak and a Path, and maybe move Clique over to the sideboard? Oh, and you should really run at least 1 Ghost Quarter. -1 Sphinx's Revelation, -1 Mana Leak, -1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Sulfur Falls, maybe -1 Path to Exile, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Ghost Quarter +2 or 3 Lightning Helix seems right.
Your sideboard can probably be changed up a little. 2 Keranos is probably overkill, since Jeskai actually gives us ways to kill our opponent without the combo, as opposed to having to beat down with 2/1's and 1/4's. I also don't think you need 2 of both Engineered Explosives and Spellskite, and I don't like Hurkyl's Recall that much. Some number of Stony Silence and Crumble to Dust might be helpful. Also, I can't recommend Kitchen Finks enough, if you can ever find something else in your sideboard underperforming. Something like -1 Keranos, -1 or 2 Engineered Explosives, -1 Spellskite, -1 Hurkyl's Recall, -1 Surgical Extraction, maybe -1 Timely Reinforcements, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Stony Silence, +2 Crumble to Dust, maybe +2 Kitchen Finks.
I think your list is a good example of a Jeskai Kiki Control that has its roots more in Twin, like Voltage's, rather than in hard control. I like how Visions can make up for the lack of draw off Wall.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern WU UWx Control variants RU Affinity
Commander WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no" WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
I mentioned this in the UWR Control thread, but after watching the Pro Tour I'm actually getting pretty concerned about the amount of 4+ toughness creatures I'm seeing on extremely early turns. What are some good options for removal outside of or in addition to Path? Valorous Stance was mentioned, which is interesting because it could actually be relevant for protecting Kiki, as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern WU UWx Control variants RU Affinity
Commander WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no" WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
What about a one of dragon lord ojutai it swings giving a draw engine and a finisher?? possibly squeeze in a Minamo in the land base or a batterskull equip with ojutai to make a 9/8 flying hex proof vigilance?? I understand that batter is pushing it but u never know right??
The only thing I see is that everyone else is playing 2 and I just don't think you'll see Kiki often enough. Kiki-Chord plays 2, but they also havev 4 Chord. That said, it is easier playing more of them with Jace and Kloghan's Command as you can discard it early and get it back later.
..i second your thoughts. it feels horrible if you finally get to find a Kiki somewhere in the late game and see it hit the bin, just because the opponent had the time to accumulate 2 removals for the blow-out. I`d rather cast one early (even turn5 if i don`t have counters in hand) to see how honest they really are about having the removal and at the worst i get to cycle a wall or any other value creature.
Not sure how much he was expecting Eldrazi, so the build might need some updates.
..I`m testing a similar list atm, but only with 2 Walls and I really cannot see why Jelger chose to run the full amount. Maybe he was expecting more zoo and u/r Eldrazi. Also interesting is the Leyline in the SB - against heavy burn/discard I suppose.
I like 3x Wall. As with many things, you want one early, but not 2.
Leyline seems unnecessary now with Burn being pushed out by Eldrazi.
..thanks for clarifying my questions. Is there a good reason why we see almost no Exarch/Pestermite numbers in the current lists? I find it rather helpful to tap down any land/creature on T3 since there is not much we do during this turn, other than the same as turn 1 or 2.
This is what I am testing right now - the sideboard is a mess right now, still working on that
With the banning of Splinter Twin, a hole has been left in the meta game. This makes room for a more controlling version of the deck that makes better use of Kiki-Jiki than it's predecessor did of Splinter Twin. A more controlling version is likely better due to Kiki being harder to cast than Twin. We can't threaten to combo until a turn later which is significant. We also don't want 4 copies of a difficult to cast 5 drop so switching from a tempo plan to a more controlling one makes sense. The base deck is still UR, but both Grixis and UWR have their merits. Both have premium removal and card advantage engines, but UWR is much better positioned to interact with creatures decks and burn and has a better aggro plan while Grixis excels at picking apart combo decks and has the better card advantage engine.
The Cards
Card Selection
Serum Visions Played in both builds, this is the best card selection spell in Modern and a staple of any blue deck.
Remand The cantrip on this is not negligible and this provides great value against delve spells, flashbacked spells, and things like Nourishing Shoals which require an additional cost to play. The fact that it doesn't actually answer whatever it counters makes it poor in matchups like burn and affinity where they can often just cast the spell again that turn. It also loses value in Grixis where your plan B is grind them out.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Due to Grixis having discard and suite of more powerful noncreature spells, this powerhouse is much better in the grixis build and is ommited from UWR. His looting ability is great at sculpting your hand early and he is capable of winning games almost single-handedly after he flips.
Wall of OmensThe cantrip attached to a solid defensive body is great against any offensive strategy.
Removal
Lightning Bolt A pillar of Modern, either taking care of early drops or going to the face, it is great in both versions.
Path to Exile The ability to cleanly answer nearly any creature is great, but giving them a land can be a real drawback. This can also be used to get a land if one of your own creatures is about to die or you don't need that wall as a blocker.
Lightning Helix A real beating vs burn and Wild Nactyl decks, but weaker in other matchups.
Electrolyze This card is at worst a cantrip and at best a 3 for one against decks with 1 toughness creatures.
TerminateWhile it costs an extra mana and doesn't exile, this cleanly answers most creatures you're likely to face with no drawback.
Kloghan's Command A beating vs Affinity and almost always a 2 for 1, this becomes an engine when combined with Jace and Snapcaster.
Damnation, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict With the meta going more towards creature decks with the rise of the Eldrazi, these cards become more important. Both Wrath and Verdict has their positives and negitives, but I personally favor Wrath because my local meta has more regenerating creatures than counterspells.
Counterspells and Discard
Mana Leak Great early, this loses value late when they can afford to play around it. Forcing them to tap out against us can clear the way for the combo.
Spell Snare There are a lot of 2 mana spells in modern, but this can be dead at times and you don't want too many of them.
Dispel The vast majority of decks play instants and answering them for 1 blue is great value.
Cryptic Command So versitile and usually a 2 for 1, access to this adds a lot to both builds.
Inquisition of Kozilek The discard spell of choice with no drawback most of the time, but not hitting spells 4 or more can be an issue at times.
Thoughtsieze This hits everything, but 2 life can be a big deal against some of the decks out there so this is often better out of the sideboard.
Utility Creatures
Snapcaster Mage One of the best 2 drops ever printed and one of the biggest draws to blue.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar 3 Creatures for 1 card and 2 fly. The fact that the thopters are colorless comes up against Etched Champion. This almost always trades for 2 cards.
Vendillion Clique This guy is very versatile, providing a good flying clock, taking your opponent's best card, or cycling one of your own dead cards.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang He makes a good impression of Tarmogoyf while also having the ability to create card advantage.
Combo Creatures
Deciever Exarch A good blocker that can also tap an attacker, deny mana to the opponent, or give you an extra mana for the turn. This makes your combo immune to spellskite.
Pestermite A better clock than Exarch and it can trade with most commonly played flyers, this is weak to spellskite.
Restoration Angel This is a better clock than the other two, is immune to Bolt, Abrupt Decay, and Spellskite and usually provides value when you play it either saving a creature or rebuying an ETB trigger on one of your other creatures.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker This is the Splinter Twin replacement, but while it makes the combo more vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and costs an extra red, it has several advantages over the recently banned card as well. This can be played and combo off with a creature that has Summoning Sickness, doesn't open you u to 2 for 1s, and can provide value even if you don't have your other combo piece. There are even times a 2/2 hasty attacker is enough to get there.
Decklists
Grixis Kiki
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Pestermite
2 Deceiver Exarch
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Whirler Rogue
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
3 Kloghan's Command
1 Cryptic Command
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
2 Wandering Fumarole
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
UWR Kiki
4 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Wall of Omens
2 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Crumble to Dust
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
Matchups
Burn: Unfavorable for Grixis, but Favorable for UWR. Kor Firewalker and friends make all the difference.
Tron: They have many must answer threats that remand sometimes just didn't cut it against with mana leak being better until they hit 10 mana. The combo gives us an edge here being able to just win on the spot. Fullminator Mage out of the board is an all-star.
GBx: Unfavorable for Grixis as Abrupt Decay is very good against Jace, although Kiki is better against it than Twin was. I'd assume it's even for UWR although I don't have experiance there.
Aggro: Favorable for Grixis Jace/Snap + lots of removal gives us an edge against everything but the fastest aggro decks and the combo can steal wins. Very Favorable for UWR.
Other combo decks: Favorable for Grixis as Discard and counter spells make their lives quite difficult. Even for UWR as they don't have as much non removal interaction.
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: UW Spirits
2x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4x Restoration Angel
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Wall of Omens
Spells (22)
2x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
2x Remand
1x Spell Snare
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Cascade Bluffs
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Steam Vents
2x Crumble to Dust
1x Izzet Staticaster
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Negate
1x Spellskite
3x Stony Silence
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Vendilion Clique
I'm on the fence about a couple of things. I don't like Spell Snare much, but consensus seems to be that it's good, especially against aggro. I don't have any pure draw spells right now since they seem to be dead and I don't usually need them to close out the game anyway, but I'm open to Sphinx's Revelation, Jace's Ingenuity, Tidings, and Thoughtflare. Finally, I like Restoration Angel a lot, but 4 could be too much. I could cut 1 for the fourth Snapcaster, but when I was on 4 they seemed to sit in my hand a lot.
Edit: Oh, and I'm thinking about swapping the mainboard Clique for a Pia and Kiran Nalaar when I get my hands on one, simply because that seems like good value.
WU UWx Control variants
RU Affinity
Commander
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no"
WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare
URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
I feel you on the hostility over at UWR control thread, I have been a UWR Control thread poster and player the last year. I still stick with the Kiki-less build, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I think running Snare as a 1-of is not a problem (this was a question you posted on the UWR Control Thread), it has its uses, but I have tested Kiki to see how I liked a more combo deck, an I found that the snare was not as valuable for a few reasons, (1) there is creatures in the build which means there is less demand to counter creature 2-drops. (2) I think that a Dispel might work better as I think all competitive removal in the format is instant speed and protecting your creatures is much more important.
To your question regarding your draw engines, I found that between 3x Wall of Omens, 4x Remand (which I would recommend in this list, as this build is very similar I think in play style as twin, and is more of a tempo-control; aggro-control game plan. This makes the "timewalk" of an early turn or mid-game remand fantastic, which mana leak cant do), blinking Wall with Resto, and Electrolyze make adequate and continuous Card Advantage.
I dont think that your deck as enough instatnt/sorcery to warrant 4 Snaps, I think 3 is the sweet spot. Resto I think has so many uses in this type of deck (all the creatures have great EtB abilities and it is the other half of the Kiki combo that it warrants 4-of.
I like PKN as it lets the deck go wide efficiently without being linger souls. I have only limited testing with PKN but I do like it more than Clique, but I will be honest Clique has never been a favorite of mine unless I was using it to draw a card myself. I know this is not a common opinion regarding Clique but most decks are so redundant that drawing a new card for decks in modern is not as powerful as I hope it would be when I play it.
Hope this helps. I will probably keep an eye on this thread for the time being, because I do think there is something to be learned from Kiki Control. I think the issue on the forum is that there is really 2 breeds of Kiki, one is a combo-control deck with visions, no Cryptic Commands, etc. and others are control with a possible instant finish. These two decks have very different philosophies that conflict with one another, thus the tension.
Anyways, after testing this deck for about over a week at my LGS I think this type of deck has real potential. I played against a lot of different types of decks like; Burn, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Goblins, Elves, Abzan and etc. Did not play against Tron or Eldrazi yet so I am not sure how the match up is. I wouldn't say I am an expert at piloting this deck, but I did definitely learned a lot.
This is my deck list that I have testing and I think I am going to make some changes.
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Wall of Omens
Spells: 22
1 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Dispel
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarns
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Crumble to Dust
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Spellskite
1 Wear / Tear
I think Wall of Omens is not that really good here. Yes, it cantrips and is a 0/4 blocker, but the thing is that it can only be a blocker. A lot of times when I was playing I cast wall of omens on turn 2 or 3 and then it just sits there doing nothing. There were so many instances where I wished Wall of Omens was something else just so that I can attack and progress the game or it can trade with a creature instead of just bouncing off each other. Cantripping is nice and blinking with Resto is nice too, but I think that its is just to slow and doesn't really progress the game.
So instead I think that maybe Kitchen Finks could replace Wall of Omens. Kitchen Finks does not cantrip, but it does gain you some life, which can be huge against aggressive decks, and its a resilient attacker and blocker that can put some pressure on the opponent. It also provides some nice synergy with Resto and/or Kiki. Though the double white could potentially be an issue.
Geist of Saint Traft is an option as well, since it can provide a fast clock, but I think Geist is more vulnerable than Kitchen Finks. It can easily be blocked by so many creatures and does not have an ETB effect, so it does not synergize well with Resto/Kiki. Because of this I think Kitchen Finks is the superior option.
Considering that I am going to lose some card draw without wall of omens I think I am going to cut Dispel and Sphinx and put in 2 Think Twice for some card advantage. Maybe cutting dispel is a mistake, but I seen a lot of successful lists without it so I am willing to try not playing it. Sphinx's Revelation is I think a fairly easy cut because it is such a late game card and often times it is just a dead card in my hand.
So, those are my thoughts about this deck after play testing for a short while. Any constructive criticism would be well appreciated. Thanks for reading.
I suppose I'll throw my build in the mix.
3 Wall of Omens
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Restoration Angel
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Spells (21)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Remand
3 Mana Leak
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Dispel
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear // Tear
2 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Shatterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
Commenting about Wall of Omens and Finks. While I agree Finks is great, it's not a replacement for Omens. Omens is the Think Twice card in the deck. You need cantrips like Omens and Remand to pull the deck into the mid and late game.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: UW Spirits
Voltage: Please don't think we're trying to hijack your thread! As we mentioned, it's getting a bit hairy over in the UWR Control thread, so we're trying to get some more action going on over here.
If you do update the primer, I highly recommend reading the articles by Shaun McLaren on the UWR version:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28487_GP-Minneapolis-Kiki-Control-4th.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28671_Kiki-Control-in-Modern.html
I like how your list seems to be the spiritual successor to Grixis Twin. Coming from the UWR perspective, I think we can get additional insight from both sides.
WU UWx Control variants
RU Affinity
Commander
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no"
WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare
URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
4 restoration angel
1 deceiver exarch
4 snapcaster mage
1 reflector mage
1 pia and kiran nalaar
1 wall of omens
1 vendilion clique
4 serum visions
4 lightning bolt
4 remand
2 path to exile
1 dispel
1 think twice
2 cryptic command
2 spell snare
2 electrolyze
3 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
2 steam vents
2 hallowed fountain
1 sacred foundry
1 cascade bluffs
2 sulfur falls
4 islands
1 mountain
1 plains
2 desolate lighthouse
1 celestial purge
2 wear/tear
1 keranos, god of storms
1 pyroclasm
1 supreme verdict
2 stony silence
2 crumble to dust
1 timely reinforcements
2 izzet staticaster
1 dispel
1 kitchen finks
lands are still a bit of a mess and i'm trying out reflector mage because it feels like she swings tempo so favorably for you, especially with resto. most of the one of creatures are for resto shenanigans. i think 2 electrolyze might be too much but if bw eldrazi is a thing, it'll be useful for lingering souls.
sideboard has a lot of one ofs as well which i am quite fond of because snapcaster gives us virtual extra copies and the creatures can get double value from resto and kiki. i want to fit a spellskite or two into it but don't know what to cut; maybe the finks?.
i really think that a deck can function similarly to how twin did in the tempo role with a combo back up. the new combo is in a similar position as the old imo. gets around spellskite and decay if using resto in exchange for it being more vulnerable to bolt. the big losses to the deck as a whole is that it's a turn slower and you can do less tricks with untapping your own mana but it's still almost all instant speed so it feels similar based on the testing, all be it not much, that i've been able to do.
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: UW Spirits
Lands 24
2 island
1 plains
1 mountain
3 sulfur falls
3 celestial colonnade
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
2 hallowed fountain
2 steam vents
1 sacred foundry
1 desolate lighthouse
Creatures 14
3 kiki jiki
3 restoration angel
4 snapcaster mage
3 deceiver exarch
1 vendillion clique
Spells 22
3 mana leak
3 remand
1 dispel
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
2 electrolyze
1 sphinx revelation
4 serum visions
Sideboard
2 engineerd explosives
1 timely reinforcements
1 supreme verdict
2 negate
1 dispel
1 surgical extraction
1 hurklys recall
2 wear//tear
2 keranos god of storms
2 spellskite
Card explanation
3 colonnade - since i only have 24 lands, i want to reduce the probability of dropping 2 consecutive cipt lands
3 sulfur falls - dont hav cascade bluffs yet
3 exarch - while it is nice to have a card draw from wall of omens, i prefer to have a flash creature that taps attacker and can kill an x/1 creature. Also give em an earlier burden if i have em or not.
Tested it against gw hatebears and is favorable even postboard
Im not sure though if ill add a 25th land, or replace serum visions. Sideboard is still a work in progress
Any constructive feedback will be appreciated.
Your sideboard can probably be changed up a little. 2 Keranos is probably overkill, since Jeskai actually gives us ways to kill our opponent without the combo, as opposed to having to beat down with 2/1's and 1/4's. I also don't think you need 2 of both Engineered Explosives and Spellskite, and I don't like Hurkyl's Recall that much. Some number of Stony Silence and Crumble to Dust might be helpful. Also, I can't recommend Kitchen Finks enough, if you can ever find something else in your sideboard underperforming. Something like -1 Keranos, -1 or 2 Engineered Explosives, -1 Spellskite, -1 Hurkyl's Recall, -1 Surgical Extraction, maybe -1 Timely Reinforcements, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Stony Silence, +2 Crumble to Dust, maybe +2 Kitchen Finks.
I think your list is a good example of a Jeskai Kiki Control that has its roots more in Twin, like Voltage's, rather than in hard control. I like how Visions can make up for the lack of draw off Wall.
WU UWx Control variants
RU Affinity
Commander
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no"
WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare
URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
WU UWx Control variants
RU Affinity
Commander
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no"
WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare
URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
..i second your thoughts. it feels horrible if you finally get to find a Kiki somewhere in the late game and see it hit the bin, just because the opponent had the time to accumulate 2 removals for the blow-out. I`d rather cast one early (even turn5 if i don`t have counters in hand) to see how honest they really are about having the removal and at the worst i get to cycle a wall or any other value creature.
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Wall of Omens
Instant (20)
2 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
4 Arid Mesa
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Crumble to Dust
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
Not sure how much he was expecting Eldrazi, so the build might need some updates.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
..I`m testing a similar list atm, but only with 2 Walls and I really cannot see why Jelger chose to run the full amount. Maybe he was expecting more zoo and u/r Eldrazi. Also interesting is the Leyline in the SB - against heavy burn/discard I suppose.
Leyline seems unnecessary now with Burn being pushed out by Eldrazi.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
This is what I am testing right now - the sideboard is a mess right now, still working on that
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
2 Pestermite
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Wall of Omens
3 Kiki-Jiki, the Mirror Breaker
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
3 Mana Leak
2 Electrolyze
2 Lightning Helix
4 Serum Visions
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Celestial Purge
1 Pay No Heed
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Stony Silence
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ghost Quarter