fortunately the local store is moving to a new shop with tons of AC soon.
To be honest, I never considered taking them out in games 2-3....i'll blame it on the heat and a long week I guess. Will try again Monday noght and see if I don't play better.
So I have been testing a build that is similar to the standard framework created within this topic and after testing it on MTGO leagues and going 5-0, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, and 3-1-1 (I threw a match to let someone live his 5-0 dream in a G3 deadlocked boardstate while I was at 2-1), I am ready to submit it for the approval of the demigods in this topic :).
Something that bothers me about this list is Chalice of the Void. Do not get me wrong, it is a decent card, but it is not as strong as some would like to believe in the current Modern meta. Chalice on 1:
Does nothing against Eldrazi Tron
Is an annoyance to Grixis Death's Shadow, but we usually still need a Bridge to ensure we do not get overtaken by Gurmags and Tasigur. Not to mention a good player will be conservative with his life total once we drop the Chalice.
Is a minor annoyance against CoCo-based decks, and without removal, we are very soft to their combos.
Does nothing of significance against Dredge.
Does stop a lot of Storm's cantrips, but we will get destroyed if we cannot take Baral/Electromancer off the field.
In my eyes, the opportunity cost of running Chalice outweighs the benefits of including it; therefore, I created my own build based upon my Skred Red roots.
4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Skred--In a world where small creatures fuel the combos of two Tier 1 decks, instant-speed removal in the CMC 1 slot is so important. We can run Sweltering Suns, but it does not matter if Collected Company fetches a Devoted Druid at the end of our turn. Skred has the additional upside of being able to kill larger creatures as the game progresses, with Lightning Bolt providing game against opposing PWs and providing burn vs Death's Shadow. Both of these also work well with our overall gameplan, being easy to cast after turboing out something with mana acceleration of Turns 1 and 2.
4 Relic of Progenitus--Such a low opportunity cost to run with a huge upside if it functions as a hoser. Can provides emergency fuel to Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the pinch.
2 Faithless Looting--Works well with Ensnaring Bridge and does better filtering than Tormenting Voice for 1 fewer mana, although it is indeed card disadvantage (which is why I settled on 2).
The manabase--I like at least 19 snow lands to work with Skred, but I would rather opt for mana consistency than risk swapping out a mountain for Scrying Sheets.
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
3 Anger of the Gods (SB)--Against creature swarms, Goblin Rabblemaster is a card we do not really want. Instead, we replace it with this and grind out our opponent with our superior suite of removal and prison pieces. It also serves as collateral hate vs Kitchen Finks and Dredge.
4 Dragon Claw (SB)--It might be overkill, but it is a good card against Storm's gameplan, as well as being excellent against Burn.
2 Magus of the Moon (SB)--This is more of a personal choice, since I am adverse to having 4 Moon effects in the deck in Game 1. These get sided in for the matchups in which my opponent knows that it is coming, but is still greatly hindered by its presence.
Losing Chalice is not something many people find attractive, but I have enjoyed the new tools made available by excluding it from the list.
Hello and welcome! First let me say, you made a great case against Chalice, and I really like your list. Knowing what I know about Skred and obviously Pyro Prison, it's definitely a strong deck that's a problem for a big chunk of the meta. I hope you continue to do well with it!
As for your evaluation of Chalice.. you come in our house and slander our damned cup?? They're $70 a piece!! I'm joking. There's one thing about our deck that makes Chalice a whole lot better than most decks that could utilize it, and that's the cumulative effect of our power suite of lock pieces. It can protect Moon or Bridge by dropping it on 2, with a few exceptions, and a Cup on 1 followed by a Cup on 2 is tough for alot of decks to beat. Moon and Bridge lock things down, and are hard outs for many many decks, but following up with Chalice often seals the deal, slams the door and queues the fat lady.
Another huge plus is how strong Rabblemaster becomes when he's supported by Chalice on 1. A very high percentage of removal spells commonly played in modern are 1 drops. We all know that if an early Rabblemaster is allowed to continue rabbling, it can end the game in a hurry. A Cup on 1, a Rabblemaster, and a song by Led Zeppelin plays in my head.. 'Rabble On'
Thanks for sharing your list, We're all Mountianfolk here!
here's one thing about our deck that makes Chalice a whole lot better than most decks that could utilize it, and that's the cumulative effect of our power suite of lock pieces. It can protect Moon or Bridge by dropping it on 2, with a few exceptions, and a Cup on 1 followed by a Cup on 2 is tough for alot of decks to beat. Moon and Bridge lock things down, and are hard outs for many many decks, but following up with Chalice often seals the deal, slams the door and queues the fat lady.
Another huge plus is how strong Rabblemaster becomes when he's supported by Chalice on 1. A very high percentage of removal spells commonly played in modern are 1 drops. We all know that if an early Rabblemaster is allowed to continue rabbling, it can end the game in a hurry. A Cup on 1, a Rabblemaster, and a song by Led Zeppelin plays in my head.. 'Rabble On'
Thanks for sharing your list, We're all Mountianfolk here!
I know that Chalice is indeed a strong card, and it is likely replacing Dragon's Claw in my SB due to its ability to be effective against Ad Nauseam (X=0 or 1), Affinity (X=0), and Living End (X=0) while still doing work against Burn (X=1) and Storm (X=2).
I dislike relying on Chalice for two reasons:
Chalice alone does not "win the game", unlike Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, or an early Goblin Rabblemaster against some matchups. Yes, it helps to support these cards, but Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge provide support to each other, as well.
Many decks do not care about any of these 4 prison pieces to win the game, including two top-tier decks in Company and Storm. OK, so Storm does care about Chalice on 2, but one Remand immediately spells game over if this is our only defense against the deck. Against Vizier/Druid, we just die, and the same holds true against many Storm scenarios and Dredge.
In my games thus far, the primary threat to Ensnaring Bridge has been Kolaghan's Command (infeasible to protect against with Chalice) with Lightning Bolt/Skred providing more than reasonable backup in the event that I lose it and Blood Moon usually protects itself in the games that I can cheat it out on Turns 1 and 2.
In paper, I have about 30 Chalices from buying collections over the years, and online, I have a playset, so my prerogative is not a budget concern. The presence of two Tier 1 decks that rely on 2 CMC spells, use creature-based engines, and are resilient to both Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon caused me to rethink Chalice's place in my maindeck.
So I have been testing a build that is similar to the standard framework created within this topic and after testing it on MTGO leagues and going 5-0, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, and 3-1-1 (I threw a match to let someone live his 5-0 dream in a G3 deadlocked boardstate while I was at 2-1), I am ready to submit it for the approval of the demigods in this topic :).
Something that bothers me about this list is Chalice of the Void. Do not get me wrong, it is a decent card, but it is not as strong as some would like to believe in the current Modern meta. Chalice on 1:
Does nothing against Eldrazi Tron
Is an annoyance to Grixis Death's Shadow, but we usually still need a Bridge to ensure we do not get overtaken by Gurmags and Tasigur. Not to mention a good player will be conservative with his life total once we drop the Chalice.
Is a minor annoyance against CoCo-based decks, and without removal, we are very soft to their combos.
Does nothing of significance against Dredge.
Does stop a lot of Storm's cantrips, but we will get destroyed if we cannot take Baral/Electromancer off the field.
In my eyes, the opportunity cost of running Chalice outweighs the benefits of including it; therefore, I created my own build based upon my Skred Red roots.
4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Skred--In a world where small creatures fuel the combos of two Tier 1 decks, instant-speed removal in the CMC 1 slot is so important. We can run Sweltering Suns, but it does not matter if Collected Company fetches a Devoted Druid at the end of our turn. Skred has the additional upside of being able to kill larger creatures as the game progresses, with Lightning Bolt providing game against opposing PWs and providing burn vs Death's Shadow. Both of these also work well with our overall gameplan, being easy to cast after turboing out something with mana acceleration of Turns 1 and 2.
4 Relic of Progenitus--Such a low opportunity cost to run with a huge upside if it functions as a hoser. Can provides emergency fuel to Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the pinch.
2 Faithless Looting--Works well with Ensnaring Bridge and does better filtering than Tormenting Voice for 1 fewer mana, although it is indeed card disadvantage (which is why I settled on 2).
The manabase--I like at least 19 snow lands to work with Skred, but I would rather opt for mana consistency than risk swapping out a mountain for Scrying Sheets.
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
3 Anger of the Gods (SB)--Against creature swarms, Goblin Rabblemaster is a card we do not really want. Instead, we replace it with this and grind out our opponent with our superior suite of removal and prison pieces. It also serves as collateral hate vs Kitchen Finks and Dredge.
4 Dragon Claw (SB)--It might be overkill, but it is a good card against Storm's gameplan, as well as being excellent against Burn.
2 Magus of the Moon (SB)--This is more of a personal choice, since I am adverse to having 4 Moon effects in the deck in Game 1. These get sided in for the matchups in which my opponent knows that it is coming, but is still greatly hindered by its presence.
Losing Chalice is not something many people find attractive, but I have enjoyed the new tools made available by excluding it from the list.
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alpha mox emerald
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4 goyfs received
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So I have been testing a build that is similar to the standard framework created within this topic and after testing it on MTGO leagues and going 5-0, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, and 3-1-1 (I threw a match to let someone live his 5-0 dream in a G3 deadlocked boardstate while I was at 2-1), I am ready to submit it for the approval of the demigods in this topic :).
Something that bothers me about this list is Chalice of the Void. Do not get me wrong, it is a decent card, but it is not as strong as some would like to believe in the current Modern meta. Chalice on 1:
Does nothing against Eldrazi Tron
Is an annoyance to Grixis Death's Shadow, but we usually still need a Bridge to ensure we do not get overtaken by Gurmags and Tasigur. Not to mention a good player will be conservative with his life total once we drop the Chalice.
Is a minor annoyance against CoCo-based decks, and without removal, we are very soft to their combos.
Does nothing of significance against Dredge.
Does stop a lot of Storm's cantrips, but we will get destroyed if we cannot take Baral/Electromancer off the field.
In my eyes, the opportunity cost of running Chalice outweighs the benefits of including it; therefore, I created my own build based upon my Skred Red roots.
4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Skred--In a world where small creatures fuel the combos of two Tier 1 decks, instant-speed removal in the CMC 1 slot is so important. We can run Sweltering Suns, but it does not matter if Collected Company fetches a Devoted Druid at the end of our turn. Skred has the additional upside of being able to kill larger creatures as the game progresses, with Lightning Bolt providing game against opposing PWs and providing burn vs Death's Shadow. Both of these also work well with our overall gameplan, being easy to cast after turboing out something with mana acceleration of Turns 1 and 2.
4 Relic of Progenitus--Such a low opportunity cost to run with a huge upside if it functions as a hoser. Can provides emergency fuel to Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the pinch.
2 Faithless Looting--Works well with Ensnaring Bridge and does better filtering than Tormenting Voice for 1 fewer mana, although it is indeed card disadvantage (which is why I settled on 2).
The manabase--I like at least 19 snow lands to work with Skred, but I would rather opt for mana consistency than risk swapping out a mountain for Scrying Sheets.
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
3 Anger of the Gods (SB)--Against creature swarms, Goblin Rabblemaster is a card we do not really want. Instead, we replace it with this and grind out our opponent with our superior suite of removal and prison pieces. It also serves as collateral hate vs Kitchen Finks and Dredge.
4 Dragon Claw (SB)--It might be overkill, but it is a good card against Storm's gameplan, as well as being excellent against Burn.
2 Magus of the Moon (SB)--This is more of a personal choice, since I am adverse to having 4 Moon effects in the deck in Game 1. These get sided in for the matchups in which my opponent knows that it is coming, but is still greatly hindered by its presence.
Losing Chalice is not something many people find attractive, but I have enjoyed the new tools made available by excluding it from the list.
Relic is not great against Company, but Lightning Bolt and Skred definitely are; Devoted Druid eats instant-speed removal on sight to prevent the combo, and our gameplan tends to favor us in the long-term provided we can stick either a Bridge to keep creatures at bay or a Moon to prevent Township from working. Anger after sticking a Moon usually sets them back so far that it is nearly impossible for them to win, and while they can theoretically Chord for silver bullets (Rec Sage and Selfless Spirit against Bridge/Moon and Anger respectively), we have far more targets than they have bullets.
I find Rabblemaster to be pretty bad in this matchup; it nonbos with Anger of the Gods and trades too easily with the likes of Eternal Witness and Kitchen Finks.
This has been a helpful discussion as someone who plays w/o Chalice due to budget
Given their current price, I should really be trying to move them. Keep in mind that a meta full of Affinity, Burn, and Death's Shadow benefits far more from the Chalice plan. However, Storm is a large part of the MTGO meta due to the deck's relatively-low price, and so is Company, so I prefer the 1 CMC package.
To the New voices in the Great Hall under the Mountain - Welcome. Demilich brings spells from our cousin deck, Skred. It seems odd that we haven't had more crossover thus far. Skred, eh.....
Well, you've put up some sound reasoning for going without the cup, and opting for the lightning: (7) Bolts. It seems like just yesterday Lightning Bolt fell off the map. Once the #1 played card in Modern, it was rendered worthless in a world of Eldrazi/Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf/Tussledfur, the Hidden Wang/Gurmag Angler & Swarm Decks. Is the bolt back, as Demilich proposes? Is he ahead of the curve here?
Huh. That's a lot of Affinity and Small White. Bolt would do well here. Buuuuut, Sweltering Suns might do even better. As for the assessments of Chalice of the Void, I will keep an open mind in the ongoing discussion. You do a very good job of detailing its scale of effectiveness. Ultimately, it's a question of denying ourselves immediate gratification (1-drops) [bolts/relic of progenitus] in exchange for higher cost spells. Lastly, Chalice does wreck a very prevalent deck: Burn, and there was a Naya Burn in the top 8 in Vegas.
Quote from DemilichKodin »
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
Another fan of Sin Prodder? I gotta do some more testing with this li'l fella! As for the 'weak/grindy' matchups, I would think Goblin Rabblemaster would be more effective? He's certainly a faster clock: (7) damage on the turn after he comes into play. But, I get where you're coming from: Grixis Control favors Prodder and Ad Nauseam favors Rabble.
To the New voices in the Great Hall under the Mountain - Welcome. Demilich brings spells from our cousin deck, Skred. It seems odd that we haven't had more crossover thus far. Skred, eh.....
Well, you've put up some sound reasoning for going without the cup, and opting for the lightning: (7) Bolts. It seems like just yesterday Lightning Bolt fell off the map. Once the #1 played card in Modern, it was rendered worthless in a world of Eldrazi/Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf/Tussledfur, the Hidden Wang/Gurmag Angler & Swarm Decks. Is the bolt back, as Demilich proposes? Is he ahead of the curve here?
Huh. That's a lot of Affinity and Small White. Bolt would do well here. Buuuuut, Sweltering Suns might do even better. As for the assessments of Chalice of the Void, I will keep an open mind in the ongoing discussion. You do a very good job of detailing its scale of effectiveness. Ultimately, it's a question of denying ourselves immediate gratification (1-drops) [bolts/relic of progenitus] in exchange for higher cost spells. Higher cost spells are usually more impactful. Lastly, Chalice does wreck a very prevalent deck that you didn't mention: Burn, and there was a Naya Burn in the top 8 in Vegas.
Quote from DemilichKodin »
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
Another fan of Sin Prodder? I gotta do some more testing with this li'l fella! As for the 'weak/grindy' matchups, I would think Goblin Rabblemaster would be more effective? He's certainly a faster clock: (7) damage on the turn after he comes into play.
The inclusion of Bolt and Skred is interesting, since it does have the limitations that are well-documented (well, Skred CAN eventually grow to kill the 4 and 5-toughness threats). However, this is exactly why we have Ensnaring Bridge, and Relic or Progenitus can be used to keep a deck like Death's Shadow off of Delve for a turn or two (which usually makes a difference). It is a little bit weaker against Grixis Shadow than the Chalice version, although I have pulled off a couple of game steals with double-Bolt to a 6 life opponent.
However, Bolt and Skred are not here for the big beefy beaters that plague Modern, but the annoying insects that are too dangerous to let live even one turn early in the game. The Barals, Electromancers, Devoted Druids, Thalias, Dark Confidants, Devoted Druids, Steel Overseers, and Devoted Druids of the world all provide a threat that presents a barrier to winning a match, and they all cost 2 mana. Chalice on X-2 is doable, but it is very hard to pull off before one of these hits the table, and Magma Jet does not take care of all of these. Sweltering Suns does, but at sorcery speed, we are dead to the dreaded EOT Chord for Druid, cast Vizier next turn for the win...not to mention the fact that it eats an entire turn for us.
I have been relying heavily on Dragon's Claw to make games 2 and 3 favorable against Burn, and it is successful when it lands, even if it means eating a Destructive Revelry instead of a Blood Moon.
Chalice makes the deck better against the likes of Living End (I would rather have Chalice than Relic), Ad Nauseam, Burn, and slightly Grixis Shadow, and you can safely use more Gemstone Caverns not needing to worry about a snow quota. The 1 CMC package does a better job against Storm, Company, Hatebears, and Dredge (and is cheaper :P). I am not sure which package gets the edge against Jund Shadow and Affinity, since both sets of hosers do excellent work here. This is definitely not a case of me saying, "Chalice is $70 toilet paper, don't use it", it is an excellent card in the deck's framework. I just cannot let go of the inskredible (ugh, did I really just type that?) job that the Bolt/Skred/Relic utility package has provided me for a couple of months now against some of the meta's big contributors.
Sin Prodder is interesting, since it dies to as much removal as Rabblemaster, yet seems much slower than his goblin counterpart. When I think of "grindy" matchups, I think of matchups that employ one or more big creatures capable of trading with Rabblemaster for days (Jund is the best example). Rabblemaster does very little if it is not allowed to attack, since it just poops out tokens that get chumped (unless you build a bridge barrier)...but Sin Prodder is the grindy deck's worst nightmare. That big creature wall suddenly cannot block alone, while Prodder provides either extra cards, extra damage, or land filtration (e.g. your opponent sending a Mountain to the graveyard for 0 life). Against control decks, 4 extra threats instead of a card like Ensnaring Bridge is a welcome addition, too. Overall, I fancy Sin Prodder as the "inverse" of Rabblemaster; Rabble wants to end the game quickly, whereas Sin Prodder punishes the opponent who wants to drag it out. I am not sure if Prodder is better than Outpost Siege in this role, but I favored him because Blood Moon usually lures enchantment hate out of sideboards, anyway.
Of course, this is all just food for thought. Congratulations on taking down the 1K!
@Raystack: Hey congrats on the finish! Success is getting serious. What's the next goal?
Also I just saw the switch toward Tormenting Voice which indeed looks like it fits the curve perfectly, effect and cost. Also saw that it pushed the CMC-3 Crystal Ball out of the deck. Then on topic of CMC-2 card advantage and selection cards, have you seen the new Hour of Devastation spoiler of Sunset Pyramid?
In a modern environment, it seems like an arguably better and faster Crystal Ball to me! Just a heads up. What do you think?
Keep on mountainin', folks!
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Ahhhh, the ambassador of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas , Radouf, pops in with a hello and a backslap on our win --- Thx & you're intuition is on target: Sunset Pyramid. Indeed, I was running Crystal Ball for a good while. Seems daft, but consider that after casting this Sphere, you can go: scry, untap - scry, draw. You've just dug (5) cards deep. Five. That's more than any Red or Colorless card available to us. But Now, you're talking about Triangles, dude?!
I think I like your suggestion of Sunset Pyramid. It avoids the paint-yourself-into-a-corner plays of Tormenting Voice, and offers yet another Proliferate target. It's true: Tezzeret's Gambit is back in my sideboard against nebulous, long-term opponent strategies. Can you believe it?!? D'arrrrggghhh, I just can't quit Tezz, buddy!
No surprise. After all, the single best card in all of Magic is that gnarled up old codger with an ill-temper and a dynamite handshake. Oh, speaking of.....I gotta share my latest Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas brew. I'll just tuck it into a spoiler tab since this isn't the place for its discussion. As a switch-up, I will be taking this out on the FNM dance floor this week, and then put a report up in either your:
As for the next goal of Pyro Prison , since you asked, I did tweet out to Frank LePore. I asked if he would consider showcasing our deck in his 'Modern Monday' feature. No word yet. Disclosure: I've been pretty regularly googling: Ray Karkman Pyro Prison. I want to see what kind of traction we're getting out there. There have been some interesting hits here and overseas. In case anyone was wondering, Pyro Prison is currently .04% of the Modern competitive meta. https://www.manatraders.com/buy-mtgo-cards/shop?cheap=1&id=54269
Of course, Demelich is bringing some seasoned experience to the discussion - I love his in-depth understanding of the archetype - who the Koth has (30) Chalice of the Void!!?!? So, the next goal? Maybe we'll just know it when we see it...
As for the next goal of Pyro Prison , since you asked, I did tweet out to Frank LePore. I asked if he would consider showcasing our deck in his 'Modern Monday' feature. No word yet. Disclosure: I've been pretty regularly googling: Ray Karkman Pyro Prison. I want to see what kind of traction we're getting out there. There have been some interesting hits here and overseas. In case anyone was wondering, Pyro Prison is currently .04% of the Modern competitive meta.
I would definitely send a tweet/e-mail to SaffronOlive and MTGGoldfish to feature this deck, since he LOVES his Free Win Red and this is so close to his list and has the credibility of taking down a competitive event.
From there? Our decklists have flourished independently, and I'd love to hear what he thinks of Pyro Prison - what we've accomplished from tweaking his uniquely effective prison archetype!
It may sound crazy but what if we put a playset of Bolts in SB and keep switching them with Chalice if needed to deal with something pesky. I mean our SB is just a mix of one offs mainly because our maindeck is a solid combination of hate cards of any kind. I agree the main thing missing is the access to Bolts (Jet is nowhere near to it even with the scry effect). I started considering Incinerate or Searing Spear just to deal with fellas like Baral, Queller or Displacer. I don't want to remove Chalices since they hose so many decks (Burn for 1, Affinity for 0, Bogles for 1, Storm for 1/2) but I will gladly keep switching them with Bolts for decks like Shadow or Merfolk f.e). Thoughts?
1-for-1 vs. Sweepers. Since we have some of the fastest mana in Modern, I feel like the extra mana cost for a sweeper is minor. But, yes, sweepers are sorcery speed which leaves us open to Chord/CoCo and Affinity tricks. I'm fine with the Affinity matchup, but the Abzan/U with Spell Queller...good gawd. There's a chap that runs that deck at my LGS, and it's a juggernaut. First, Queller should be capped at a 3-cmc spell that it can eat, but w/e. Second, it's definitely one of our top 2 worst matchups. I believe that it will eventually overwhelm any kind of 1-for-1 kill that we throw at it. Grafdigger's Cage / Torpor Orb / Anger of the Gods are the silver bullets. You gotta moon them and then kill a dork or chalice/moon...their 2-for-1 effects are vexing.
As for the 4 Bolt-in-the-sideboard thought, Amok: I suppose you could do -4 chalice and bring in 4 bolts and 2 grafdigger's cage. It would allow for the thinking to add more 1 drops in the sideboard with the expectation that there are cases where chalice comes out.
Right now, I have 2 Sweltering Suns and 1 Magma Jet in the main (of course Ensnaring Bridge does most of the work). The sideboard offers up 3 anger of the gods and 1 ratchet bomb, but no 1-for-1 kill. The lack of 1-for-1 kill is tough against many of the named threats as well as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I guess I would just say that if the bolts are mainly there for Abzan/U, then I would rather hope for the early moon and subsequent sweeps. Of course, the bolts are there for more -- Demilich did a superb job of listing that out in a previous post.
@Raystack - congrats on the win. This is a deck I've dabbled with on the side a bit (between playing Sun and Moon and Lantern in modern, and Dragon Stompy in legacy it does a lot of what I like).
How've you found Dredge to be? I'm waffling on Sweltering Suns instead of Anger mainboard; but I imagine you can swap that for G2, and Bridge is the big hail mary game 1 (before they have artifact removal online). Am I misreading the situation?
Hey Walked! Sure, I've seen your stuff out there - good to hear you've slung our cardboard around as well. It's not uncommon to see faces coming over from Sun and Moon as well as Lantern since they're also prison decks, but why so many Legacy Dragon Stompy players?? Must be the intoxicating allure of igneous - the smell of magma in the morning. Smells like.....Victory.
Dredge is certainly a favorable matchup, and a highly effective deck these days. This dredge decklist beat out a field of 2,800 people to come in 2nd place last month. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15693&d=295988&f=MO
So, let's break this motherhumper down, shall we?
They win by A) Attack or B) Conflagrate.
Attack: Bridge = Game Over || Conflagrate: Blood Moon = Game Over [the engine to fill their hand for the fireball is Life from the Loam & he has no forests]
Beyond that, Anger of the Gods is tremendously powerful, like you mentioned. I prefer leaving them in the sideboard, but can see cause to split the count in the main with Sweltering Suns. Grafdigger's Cage ends their party in a heartbeat: no recurring creatures and no conflagrate or ancient grudge from the sideboard. Dont'cha just love seeing grudge getting peeled off the library and into the graveyard from a dredge maneuver after you've got the cage out So, beyond 4 Bridge / 2 Sweltering Sun main, I'm packing 3 Anger and 2 Grafdigger's cage in the sideboard. And for allll the sideboard removal this fella has coming at me in Games 2/3, he has no basic lands - None. So, I count (9) disruption spells getting sideboarded in against me, and if there's a moon on the table, he can cast only one of those (9) and not with flashback - 1 Ancient Grudge.
So, if I was facing this deck, here's how I would sideboard:
Couple notes: Conflagrate can't be stopped by Chalice. The X cost inflates the CMC. Tormenting Voice is dangerous here. They run a ton of 1-power creatures, so hope you can dodge a hellbent situation in game 1 (whilst digging hard for the bridge that you may not have found otherwise), and get it out of the maindeck for subsequent games.
A little birdy told me...it's already in the works. A discussion between Saffron Olive and one of our principal contributors has begun.
I believe that could be me. :-P
Some months ago, I had written to Saffron Olive to let him know about this thread, and how the deck had evolved.
Then in the same week that Ray pulled off his big win, Saffron mentioned during a stream that he may revisit Free Win Red soon, but that it needed some tweaking. The timing felt right to share Ray's list and the accomplishment!
I'll get back to you guys shortly with a detailed report soon, but I've had good success with Pyro Prison on my end for the last few weeks. I went 3-1 and my last two FNMs, but most importantly, in both cases came up "1 game short" of landing "absolute first place" (instead ending up "tied for 1st place" with multiple other players). The latest iteration of the deck is very, very solid.
It may sound crazy but what if we put a playset of Bolts in SB and keep switching them with Chalice if needed to deal with something pesky. I mean our SB is just a mix of one offs mainly because our maindeck is a solid combination of hate cards of any kind. I agree the main thing missing is the access to Bolts (Jet is nowhere near to it even with the scry effect). I started considering Incinerate or Searing Spear just to deal with fellas like Baral, Queller or Displacer. I don't want to remove Chalices since they hose so many decks (Burn for 1, Affinity for 0, Bogles for 1, Storm for 1/2) but I will gladly keep switching them with Bolts for decks like Shadow or Merfolk f.e). Thoughts?
I've considered something similar, although I think it would be tough to fit a whole playset in. While I can definitely see where instant speed removal could be helpful in some matchups, especially Abzan, I'm not sure I'm siding out all 4 Chalices, especially on the play. Chalice on 1 for dorks, Moon and Cage makes it tough for them, and Torpor Orb helps. A great deal of matchups involving creatures favor us anyway, but in the case of weenie decks, where we side out Tormenting Voice, it would be nice to side in some removal.. I just can't get myself to spend SB slots on Magma Jets.
A new card that was previewed has potential to fill this void; Abrade Hmmmm..
Also, the previously mentioned Sunset Pyramid could be a perfect fit
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To be honest, I never considered taking them out in games 2-3....i'll blame it on the heat and a long week I guess. Will try again Monday noght and see if I don't play better.
Something that bothers me about this list is Chalice of the Void. Do not get me wrong, it is a decent card, but it is not as strong as some would like to believe in the current Modern meta. Chalice on 1:
In my eyes, the opportunity cost of running Chalice outweighs the benefits of including it; therefore, I created my own build based upon my Skred Red roots.
2 Faithless Looting
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Skred
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Gemstone Caverns
19 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sin Prodder
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
4 Dragon's Claw
2 Magus of the Moon
The rationale behind my choices:
4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Skred--In a world where small creatures fuel the combos of two Tier 1 decks, instant-speed removal in the CMC 1 slot is so important. We can run Sweltering Suns, but it does not matter if Collected Company fetches a Devoted Druid at the end of our turn. Skred has the additional upside of being able to kill larger creatures as the game progresses, with Lightning Bolt providing game against opposing PWs and providing burn vs Death's Shadow. Both of these also work well with our overall gameplan, being easy to cast after turboing out something with mana acceleration of Turns 1 and 2.
4 Relic of Progenitus--Such a low opportunity cost to run with a huge upside if it functions as a hoser. Can provides emergency fuel to Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the pinch.
2 Faithless Looting--Works well with Ensnaring Bridge and does better filtering than Tormenting Voice for 1 fewer mana, although it is indeed card disadvantage (which is why I settled on 2).
The manabase--I like at least 19 snow lands to work with Skred, but I would rather opt for mana consistency than risk swapping out a mountain for Scrying Sheets.
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
3 Anger of the Gods (SB)--Against creature swarms, Goblin Rabblemaster is a card we do not really want. Instead, we replace it with this and grind out our opponent with our superior suite of removal and prison pieces. It also serves as collateral hate vs Kitchen Finks and Dredge.
4 Dragon Claw (SB)--It might be overkill, but it is a good card against Storm's gameplan, as well as being excellent against Burn.
2 Magus of the Moon (SB)--This is more of a personal choice, since I am adverse to having 4 Moon effects in the deck in Game 1. These get sided in for the matchups in which my opponent knows that it is coming, but is still greatly hindered by its presence.
Losing Chalice is not something many people find attractive, but I have enjoyed the new tools made available by excluding it from the list.
As for your evaluation of Chalice.. you come in our house and slander our damned cup?? They're $70 a piece!! I'm joking. There's one thing about our deck that makes Chalice a whole lot better than most decks that could utilize it, and that's the cumulative effect of our power suite of lock pieces. It can protect Moon or Bridge by dropping it on 2, with a few exceptions, and a Cup on 1 followed by a Cup on 2 is tough for alot of decks to beat. Moon and Bridge lock things down, and are hard outs for many many decks, but following up with Chalice often seals the deal, slams the door and queues the fat lady.
Another huge plus is how strong Rabblemaster becomes when he's supported by Chalice on 1. A very high percentage of removal spells commonly played in modern are 1 drops. We all know that if an early Rabblemaster is allowed to continue rabbling, it can end the game in a hurry. A Cup on 1, a Rabblemaster, and a song by Led Zeppelin plays in my head.. 'Rabble On'
Thanks for sharing your list, We're all Mountianfolk here!
actually this
I dislike relying on Chalice for two reasons:
In my games thus far, the primary threat to Ensnaring Bridge has been Kolaghan's Command (infeasible to protect against with Chalice) with Lightning Bolt/Skred providing more than reasonable backup in the event that I lose it and Blood Moon usually protects itself in the games that I can cheat it out on Turns 1 and 2.
In paper, I have about 30 Chalices from buying collections over the years, and online, I have a playset, so my prerogative is not a budget concern. The presence of two Tier 1 decks that rely on 2 CMC spells, use creature-based engines, and are resilient to both Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon caused me to rethink Chalice's place in my maindeck.
Care to lend a playset? lol
This has been a helpful discussion as someone who plays w/o Chalice due to budget
If chalice of the void is being cut, I think you want some amount of grafdigger's cage against the anafenza combo deck. I feel that its much stronger than relic of progenitus against them.
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snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Relic is not great against Company, but Lightning Bolt and Skred definitely are; Devoted Druid eats instant-speed removal on sight to prevent the combo, and our gameplan tends to favor us in the long-term provided we can stick either a Bridge to keep creatures at bay or a Moon to prevent Township from working. Anger after sticking a Moon usually sets them back so far that it is nearly impossible for them to win, and while they can theoretically Chord for silver bullets (Rec Sage and Selfless Spirit against Bridge/Moon and Anger respectively), we have far more targets than they have bullets.
I find Rabblemaster to be pretty bad in this matchup; it nonbos with Anger of the Gods and trades too easily with the likes of Eternal Witness and Kitchen Finks.
Given their current price, I should really be trying to move them. Keep in mind that a meta full of Affinity, Burn, and Death's Shadow benefits far more from the Chalice plan. However, Storm is a large part of the MTGO meta due to the deck's relatively-low price, and so is Company, so I prefer the 1 CMC package.
Well, you've put up some sound reasoning for going without the cup, and opting for the lightning: (7) Bolts. It seems like just yesterday Lightning Bolt fell off the map. Once the #1 played card in Modern, it was rendered worthless in a world of Eldrazi/Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf/Tussledfur, the Hidden Wang/Gurmag Angler & Swarm Decks. Is the bolt back, as Demilich proposes? Is he ahead of the curve here?
Well, let's turn to the Interwebs. This is the top 8 list at Las Vegas Grand Prix from just 3 days ago.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplv17-modern/top-8-decklists-2017-06-18
Huh. That's a lot of Affinity and Small White. Bolt would do well here. Buuuuut, Sweltering Suns might do even better. As for the assessments of Chalice of the Void, I will keep an open mind in the ongoing discussion. You do a very good job of detailing its scale of effectiveness. Ultimately, it's a question of denying ourselves immediate gratification (1-drops) [bolts/relic of progenitus] in exchange for higher cost spells. Lastly, Chalice does wreck a very prevalent deck: Burn, and there was a Naya Burn in the top 8 in Vegas.
Another fan of Sin Prodder? I gotta do some more testing with this li'l fella! As for the 'weak/grindy' matchups, I would think Goblin Rabblemaster would be more effective? He's certainly a faster clock: (7) damage on the turn after he comes into play. But, I get where you're coming from: Grixis Control favors Prodder and Ad Nauseam favors Rabble.
The inclusion of Bolt and Skred is interesting, since it does have the limitations that are well-documented (well, Skred CAN eventually grow to kill the 4 and 5-toughness threats). However, this is exactly why we have Ensnaring Bridge, and Relic or Progenitus can be used to keep a deck like Death's Shadow off of Delve for a turn or two (which usually makes a difference). It is a little bit weaker against Grixis Shadow than the Chalice version, although I have pulled off a couple of game steals with double-Bolt to a 6 life opponent.
However, Bolt and Skred are not here for the big beefy beaters that plague Modern, but the annoying insects that are too dangerous to let live even one turn early in the game. The Barals, Electromancers, Devoted Druids, Thalias, Dark Confidants, Devoted Druids, Steel Overseers, and Devoted Druids of the world all provide a threat that presents a barrier to winning a match, and they all cost 2 mana. Chalice on X-2 is doable, but it is very hard to pull off before one of these hits the table, and Magma Jet does not take care of all of these. Sweltering Suns does, but at sorcery speed, we are dead to the dreaded EOT Chord for Druid, cast Vizier next turn for the win...not to mention the fact that it eats an entire turn for us.
I have been relying heavily on Dragon's Claw to make games 2 and 3 favorable against Burn, and it is successful when it lands, even if it means eating a Destructive Revelry instead of a Blood Moon.
Chalice makes the deck better against the likes of Living End (I would rather have Chalice than Relic), Ad Nauseam, Burn, and slightly Grixis Shadow, and you can safely use more Gemstone Caverns not needing to worry about a snow quota. The 1 CMC package does a better job against Storm, Company, Hatebears, and Dredge (and is cheaper :P). I am not sure which package gets the edge against Jund Shadow and Affinity, since both sets of hosers do excellent work here. This is definitely not a case of me saying, "Chalice is $70 toilet paper, don't use it", it is an excellent card in the deck's framework. I just cannot let go of the inskredible (ugh, did I really just type that?) job that the Bolt/Skred/Relic utility package has provided me for a couple of months now against some of the meta's big contributors.
Sin Prodder is interesting, since it dies to as much removal as Rabblemaster, yet seems much slower than his goblin counterpart. When I think of "grindy" matchups, I think of matchups that employ one or more big creatures capable of trading with Rabblemaster for days (Jund is the best example). Rabblemaster does very little if it is not allowed to attack, since it just poops out tokens that get chumped (unless you build a bridge barrier)...but Sin Prodder is the grindy deck's worst nightmare. That big creature wall suddenly cannot block alone, while Prodder provides either extra cards, extra damage, or land filtration (e.g. your opponent sending a Mountain to the graveyard for 0 life). Against control decks, 4 extra threats instead of a card like Ensnaring Bridge is a welcome addition, too. Overall, I fancy Sin Prodder as the "inverse" of Rabblemaster; Rabble wants to end the game quickly, whereas Sin Prodder punishes the opponent who wants to drag it out. I am not sure if Prodder is better than Outpost Siege in this role, but I favored him because Blood Moon usually lures enchantment hate out of sideboards, anyway.
Of course, this is all just food for thought. Congratulations on taking down the 1K!
Also I just saw the switch toward Tormenting Voice which indeed looks like it fits the curve perfectly, effect and cost. Also saw that it pushed the CMC-3 Crystal Ball out of the deck. Then on topic of CMC-2 card advantage and selection cards, have you seen the new Hour of Devastation spoiler of Sunset Pyramid?
In a modern environment, it seems like an arguably better and faster Crystal Ball to me! Just a heads up. What do you think?
Keep on mountainin', folks!
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I think I like your suggestion of Sunset Pyramid. It avoids the paint-yourself-into-a-corner plays of Tormenting Voice, and offers yet another Proliferate target. It's true: Tezzeret's Gambit is back in my sideboard against nebulous, long-term opponent strategies. Can you believe it?!? D'arrrrggghhh, I just can't quit Tezz, buddy!
No surprise. After all, the single best card in all of Magic is that gnarled up old codger with an ill-temper and a dynamite handshake. Oh, speaking of.....I gotta share my latest Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas brew. I'll just tuck it into a spoiler tab since this isn't the place for its discussion. As a switch-up, I will be taking this out on the FNM dance floor this week, and then put a report up in either your:
Tezzeret U/B/x Control Thread in "Developing Competitive"
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/773189-ubx-tezzeret-agent-of-bolas-control
OR
My largely defunct thread: Iron Souldiers // Robots with Black Belts (Affinity Enabled)
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/641720-iron-souldiers-robots-with-black-belts-affinity
That'll depend upon performance and interest level. So, here's the latest iteration of my 5-Color 5/5 Bruce Lee-bot Kickin' Machine
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Creatures (19)
4 Bomat Courier
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vault Skirge
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Hulkamaniacs (5)
4 Ensoul Artifact
1 Tezzeret's Touch
Artifacts (8)
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
Utility (5)
4 Galvanic Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
Land (17)
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
4 Spire of Industry
3 Mana Confluence
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Mountain
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Torpor Orb
1 Whipflare
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Rest in Peace
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Searing Blood
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Shrapnel Blast
1 Anathemancer
As for the next goal of Pyro Prison , since you asked, I did tweet out to Frank LePore. I asked if he would consider showcasing our deck in his 'Modern Monday' feature. No word yet. Disclosure: I've been pretty regularly googling: Ray Karkman Pyro Prison. I want to see what kind of traction we're getting out there. There have been some interesting hits here and overseas. In case anyone was wondering, Pyro Prison is currently .04% of the Modern competitive meta.
https://www.manatraders.com/buy-mtgo-cards/shop?cheap=1&id=54269
Of course, Demelich is bringing some seasoned experience to the discussion - I love his in-depth understanding of the archetype - who the Koth has (30) Chalice of the Void!!?!? So, the next goal? Maybe we'll just know it when we see it...
I would definitely send a tweet/e-mail to SaffronOlive and MTGGoldfish to feature this deck, since he LOVES his Free Win Red and this is so close to his list and has the credibility of taking down a competitive event.
Extraordinary.
The 'Maverick of Modern' has put eyes on our laboratory.
Let's recount: The first published version of Saffron's 'Free Win Red' deck came out in December 2015.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-about-nothing-modern-free-win-red
That document is published in our Official Primer as a primary inspiration for Pyro Prison. We launched this thread (1) month after Saffron's post with this decklist as a touchstone.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/663335-pyro-prison-mono-red-the-sideboard-deck-1st-place?comment=23
From there? Our decklists have flourished independently, and I'd love to hear what he thinks of Pyro Prison - what we've accomplished from tweaking his uniquely effective prison archetype!
As for the 4 Bolt-in-the-sideboard thought, Amok: I suppose you could do -4 chalice and bring in 4 bolts and 2 grafdigger's cage. It would allow for the thinking to add more 1 drops in the sideboard with the expectation that there are cases where chalice comes out.
Right now, I have 2 Sweltering Suns and 1 Magma Jet in the main (of course Ensnaring Bridge does most of the work). The sideboard offers up 3 anger of the gods and 1 ratchet bomb, but no 1-for-1 kill. The lack of 1-for-1 kill is tough against many of the named threats as well as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I guess I would just say that if the bolts are mainly there for Abzan/U, then I would rather hope for the early moon and subsequent sweeps. Of course, the bolts are there for more -- Demilich did a superb job of listing that out in a previous post.
Eidolon of the Great Revel will smoke Storm but I don't know if it's got enough other uses...Anti-Tron?
How've you found Dredge to be? I'm waffling on Sweltering Suns instead of Anger mainboard; but I imagine you can swap that for G2, and Bridge is the big hail mary game 1 (before they have artifact removal online). Am I misreading the situation?
Dredge is certainly a favorable matchup, and a highly effective deck these days. This dredge decklist beat out a field of 2,800 people to come in 2nd place last month.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15693&d=295988&f=MO
So, let's break this motherhumper down, shall we?
They win by A) Attack or B) Conflagrate.
Attack: Bridge = Game Over || Conflagrate: Blood Moon = Game Over [the engine to fill their hand for the fireball is Life from the Loam & he has no forests]
Beyond that, Anger of the Gods is tremendously powerful, like you mentioned. I prefer leaving them in the sideboard, but can see cause to split the count in the main with Sweltering Suns. Grafdigger's Cage ends their party in a heartbeat: no recurring creatures and no conflagrate or ancient grudge from the sideboard. Dont'cha just love seeing grudge getting peeled off the library and into the graveyard from a dredge maneuver after you've got the cage out So, beyond 4 Bridge / 2 Sweltering Sun main, I'm packing 3 Anger and 2 Grafdigger's cage in the sideboard. And for allll the sideboard removal this fella has coming at me in Games 2/3, he has no basic lands - None. So, I count (9) disruption spells getting sideboarded in against me, and if there's a moon on the table, he can cast only one of those (9) and not with flashback - 1 Ancient Grudge.
So, if I was facing this deck, here's how I would sideboard:
Creatures (8)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Siege-Gang Commander
Accelerators (12)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
3 Tormenting Voice
Enchantments (4)
4 Blood Moon
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
Artifacts (8)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
Disruption (3)
2 Sweltering Suns
1 Magma Jet
Lands (21)
17 Mountains
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Torpor Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Spellskite
IN: 2 Grafdigger's Cage / 3 Anger of the Gods / 1 Witchbane Orb / 1 Spellskite / 1 Hazoret the Fervent
OUT: 3 Tormenting Voice / 1 Siege-Gang Commander / 4 Goblin Rabblemaster
Couple notes: Conflagrate can't be stopped by Chalice. The X cost inflates the CMC. Tormenting Voice is dangerous here. They run a ton of 1-power creatures, so hope you can dodge a hellbent situation in game 1 (whilst digging hard for the bridge that you may not have found otherwise), and get it out of the maindeck for subsequent games.
I believe that could be me. :-P
Some months ago, I had written to Saffron Olive to let him know about this thread, and how the deck had evolved.
Then in the same week that Ray pulled off his big win, Saffron mentioned during a stream that he may revisit Free Win Red soon, but that it needed some tweaking. The timing felt right to share Ray's list and the accomplishment!
I'll get back to you guys shortly with a detailed report soon, but I've had good success with Pyro Prison on my end for the last few weeks. I went 3-1 and my last two FNMs, but most importantly, in both cases came up "1 game short" of landing "absolute first place" (instead ending up "tied for 1st place" with multiple other players). The latest iteration of the deck is very, very solid.
I've considered something similar, although I think it would be tough to fit a whole playset in. While I can definitely see where instant speed removal could be helpful in some matchups, especially Abzan, I'm not sure I'm siding out all 4 Chalices, especially on the play. Chalice on 1 for dorks, Moon and Cage makes it tough for them, and Torpor Orb helps. A great deal of matchups involving creatures favor us anyway, but in the case of weenie decks, where we side out Tormenting Voice, it would be nice to side in some removal.. I just can't get myself to spend SB slots on Magma Jets.
A new card that was previewed has potential to fill this void; Abrade Hmmmm..
Also, the previously mentioned Sunset Pyramid could be a perfect fit