@Caligula: That's some inspired prose & a raucous report. I'm surprised that you received as much guff as you did from your opponents. First, how is Lantern completely unable to handle a Chalice on 1??? Dude, when I face lantern, I slam down a chalice on 1, and then I do it again! They should be running at least 3 abrupt decay. And, why would the finals opponent not sit down? That's ridonc - I'd serve him up a DQ. So, he'd face Lantern, but not Pyro Prison?? We're a walk in the park compared to facing off against that mousetrap.
You know, I've been wondering about the lantern player myself, maybe he was just having a bad day..? He wasn't a very nice guy though, and I don't think he even stayed to play a 3rd match. The final match, I think, was more a case of the guy wanting to take his prize and go, rather than not wanting to play me specifically. I offered to play for a 24-12 split of the box but he still wanted to chop it, so I said ok. I just wanted to play another match, but I wasn't going to make him play.
As for the other matches, clamoring for bannings is very common at that store lol, I heard people calling for bannings of SSG, Chalice, Blood Moon, Ad Nauseum and even Snapcaster! I didn't take anything personally! Except for the first match everyone was friendly and complimented the deck, curious as to what exactly I was playing. It wasn't nearly as bad as my "psychiatrist" story made it seem.
Do these things still exist? I recall my LGS in Massachusetts banning Hymn to Tourach and Goblin Grenade shortly after Fallen Empires was released. Shortly thereafter, when I was studying abroad in Scotland, my new LGS regularly banned whatever card kicked ass for 2 weeks in a row. You know things were getting out of hand when Elemental Augury and Millstone were put on the chopping block.
@Raystack Thankyou! Yes it was MTGO competitive league here is the link. MTGO is all I play these days. Arc trail I'll have to test, I recently changed up my list to not run skred and run one anger/pyretic ritual in it's place with two magus MD and one less Relic/Koth and little sideboard shakeup with grafdiggers and a torpor orb. I've gone 4-1 twice in competitive league setting with the list, again really only losing not because of not having the right answers in the deck but to mana problems(flooding or not getting enough lands) the loses were to favorable matches in eldrazi tron and grixis deathshadow(I lick my chops when I get this matchup too). But coming back to arc trail I'll have to test it, I like the versatility of it but I've also been eyeing abrade in the slot so I'll be testing that card out too when it gets released (Plus it's an instant!).
PS in the 3 competitive leagues I've gone through I've gotten enough tickets from my winnings to buy 1 chalice and enough points to play several free leagues, so the deck has been really paying off.
Pleased to report a grand 4-0 finish this evening. Admittedly, one of those wins was a bye, but I played a match against my friend's lantern control and won it, so I'm willing to say I went 4-0 and earned it.
Took Ray's advice RE Pyroclasm over Magma Jet. It's just a 1-of so can't say it made a huge change but hey. Chalice of the Void certainly did make a pretty big difference. I think I can solidly say that it is better than Bolts in that it answers a lot more plays and is more back-breaking in the right matchup. Still, the two cards are so different that in the right meta Bolt might be better.
As for the matches, since we all love hearing stories, here you go:
Round 1 against Lantern Control: I get the bye put play against my friend's Lantern deck just for fun. First game we both mulligan to 5. My 5 are Mountain, 3 Simian Spirit Guide and Koth of the Hammer. So I go turn 1 Koth and hope for the best. No Pithing Needle means I win this, though kind of slowly. Second game Magus of the Moon holds down his mana and planeswalkers carry me to victory against a lot of Ensnaring Bridges. It is nice to have non-creature win-cons.
Round 2 against a 4-color Scapeshift deck: He was using some spell with converge that would tutor-and-cast as copies 4-8 of Scapeshift. Game one I mulligan to 5, go turn 1 Rabblemaster, but it gets bolted and I don't put much together before combos out. Game two I go turn 1 or 2 Blood Moon and just win off Chandra quickly afterward. Last game goes similarly, with a Chalice on 2 shutting down a lot of his random spells and Witchbane Orb turning off his combo. Played a few more after the match and won one of those, lost one as well.
Round 3 against Abzan Creature Combos: game one goes slow. I try to get him with Rabblemasters but he slows me down and stabilizes, though he doesn't have any combos. I drop Ensnaring Bridge and a Chalice on 2. He's attacking me with a Birds of Paradise for 1 after exalted triggers for a while. I drop Koth of the Hammer and he turns to attack Koth instead. Meanwhile he is also tutoring a few things, though oddly not the combo. Eventually I Sweltering Suns to get rid of the birds, hit Koth's ultimate, and win off it. After the game it became clear that he could have probably won if he had tutored Rhonas the Indomitable to do more damage through the bird, but hey. Game two I pick off his guys early game with added pressure from Pia and Kiran Nalaar and keep him off Chord mana with Blood Moon. P&K only go so far, and eventually I drop bridge and hide behind it. Chandra's ultimate ends up carrying the day. I felt unsure in this matchup whether I should attempt to be the aggressor or play the more controlling game. It seems that the aggressive strategy is not hugely effective, as they are better at that than we are, so maybe in the future I'll board out the Rabblemasters? At the same time, however, we need pressure since given the time they will just assemble their combos and blow us out.
Round 4 against Burn: this was the guy I lost to last week, so maybe a bit of a grudge match, and I was eager to see how the Chalices performed. They did not disappoint. First game sees a Chalice at 1 followed soon after by a Chalice at 2 and he just scoops. Game 2 I drop Chalice, Moon, and Witchbane Orb. He has Destructive Revelry for the first two but not the last one. We played a few more games after this with the decks both before and after board and I won all of them for a total of 5 wins against burn - feels good man.
Anyway, not that anyone asked for a long story like this, but I enjoy reading other people's so I thought I'd share in case y'all felt the same.
My list is not particularly edgy or fresh; perhaps the only remarkable thing is that I kept Faithless Looting in despite the presence of Chalice of the Void. My thinking is that I won't always draw Chalice, nor will I always set it at 1, and in some matches I might even side it out. I felt the deck could use just a touch of card-drawing, and I liked Looting more than Tormenting Voice for having flashback, and not having negative synergy with the Ensnaring Bridge. It is also nice in that you can play it turn 1 and occasionally draw into an explosive turn 2.
"Ask yourself, why do you seek the Cup of Koth? Is it for His glory, or for yours?"
― Kazim / Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade [alt.]
It seems Aslid chose.....wisely. The addition of Chalice of the Void = 4-0. Well done and well written. I see some unique approaches to the deck, and that Jehovah the Fervent has slipped into your main list. I can get behind that as she was a thunderclap of power in my wins last night as well. The one question that you posed had to do with siding in/siding out the Moons vs. Abzan Creature Combos. Honestly, I never know. It depends on if you're on the play/draw and how strongly you feel about your sweepers.
Speaking of sweepers, I brought back an old gem and me likey: Arc Trail. So, first, I went 3-1 losing to Grixis Delver which is baffling since we love this matchup...actually, he had absolute nut draws in both of his wins, which he readily admitted, leveraging my 2 least favorite cards against me: Kolaghan's Command and Engineered Explosives.
Back to Arc Trail: it's basically a 1-sided mini-pyroclasm that catches critters that snuck out before the moon / chalice got dropped, and it doesn't kill my horde: Goblin Rabblemaster, Pia and Kiran + Tokens, Magus of the Moon, Siege-Gang Commander. Unlike Sweltering Suns / Anger of the Gods, it can go to the face or knock a planeswalker in the belly, and it only costs 2-cmc. I can't believe that it was forgotten for so long - prob. due to the rise of phat beaters. Give it a try!
Tourney Report
Round 1 - Esper Gifts Goryo: 2-0 // I open with a Turn 1 Rabble-Rabble and start to charge. He goes turn 2 mini-Jace 0/2. If I was holding a sweeper=boned. But, arc trail it off the board and continue charging (obviously magma jet would do well here as well). Locks fell upon the board and attack took game 1. In game 2, I mull into an interesting hand that almost has a Turn 1 Iahovah the Fervent. Instead it develops into a turn 2 God and Chandra +1 beats. Luckily, he whiffed on not getting Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into the graveyard.
Round 2 - Grixis Death's Shadow: 0-2 // These games follow typical arcs. They try to get in early discard, a timely stubborn denial, and hope for Kolaghan's Commands doubled through Snapcaster Mage to knock out bridges for an attacking win. Favorability in this matchup for us is 75%+. In game 1, the Kommand knocked out Magus and a chalice on 1. In game 2, I fan open a hand with 2 mountain, 1 SSG, 1 Goblin Rabblemaster, and 3 Bridge. Bridge = victory (unless liliana), so sure. He rips one from the hand and then E.E. the other 2 alongside a Blood Moon. Tussledfur attack for the win. This is one of those instances where I wonder about Phyrexian Metamorph. Since it dodges E.E. shenanigans and can drop as a double chalice on "0" against Living End decks, is this a viable card to keep in the 75? Obviously, it can be the 5th Rabblemaster as well...at the moment, I'm thinking that I like it more than siege-gang commander in this slot.
Round 3 - Bogles: 2-0 // This is perhaps our best matchup?? I will say say that in game 1, I was desperately looking for a bridge whilst chump blocking. I tore off (3) Tormenting Voices in a row. Threeeeeeeee. Bridge Located and Deployed. Try this card, mountainfolk. I implore you. In game 2, I did a turn 2 spellskite, and began a waiting game for the bridge - it came and that was the game. But, I did note that he plays worship. We don't have 'loss of life' effects, so the saving grace here would be ratchet bomb. I'd never run a 75 without this silver bullet.
Round 4 - Grixis Death's Shadow 2-0 // I play this opponent often, and he told me that he has kept track: he has only beat my Pyro Prison deck once. Not for the round...a single game. I went turn 1 Blood Moon in game 1 which had him quickly discarding down to 7 during his end step. Turn 1 Chalice occurred in Game 2. Collect my 8 packs for the night and head home.
Here's the decklist & I feel like I'm pretty well settled on the design:
The sideboard lost Ricochet Trap and Tezzeret's Gambit. Trap is just too situational. Again, I'd rather play a threat than hope that I have a clever answer. And, Tezzeret's Gambit can be a surprise play, but perhaps just a bit too clever for its own good. Eidolon of the Great Revel comes in - testing it out against decks that don't deliver much damage to me in their development and I added Dragon's Claw...well, c'mon - that's easy.
The maindeck picked up a couple arc trail in lieu of sweltering suns. Mostly? I don't have to knock my own critters off the board and it costs 1 less. Unlike Suns, arc trail always has some sort of application, and I don't miss the cycling that much. I swapped the Magma Jet for a single Phyrexian Revoker: it better disrupts our opponents aims.
Lastly, I thought it might be neat to see the Decklist mapped out as Game Development:
Anyway, not that anyone asked for a long story like this, but I enjoy reading other people's so I thought I'd share in case y'all felt the same.
I definitely love reading well written, detailed tournament reports, Aslid, keep them coming! Congrats on the W!
Congrats to Ray as well! Some interesting changes as of late.. Pyroclasm; played a few matches with 2 'clasm MD last night, and I'm definitely in.. I thumbed through my collection and was shocked to find I don't own any Arc Trail, they're in the mail now. They might be the better option.
Phyrexian Metamorph; I'm surprised this hasn't been thought of before! I love the idea, this guy is in the mail as well.
Hazoret the Fervent; my God, I love this card. She has been moved to the starting 60 for me as well, not only for her body, but also as a discard outlet, which comes in handy. Although she DOES have an excellent body!
Abrade and Hour of Devistation are a couple new cards I'm looking forward to testing, although the former has lost some of its appeal after trying 'clasm.
Good catch and Raystack has been moving the community in that direction saying, "hey looky I solved the next three problems with the deck." But, for the most part, we are not as deep winded to catch up to Raystack. I'm not anyways - yet. lol Hense so much talk about Raystacks choice draw card...can't recall the name of it. But, we as a control deck have to have access to some deck thining. Chandra does this and anything else is great, so long as it doesn't cost us the match via spinning our wheels.
-With chalices: Some decks can't just play around a chalice with 1-2 counters, Boggles, burn, lantern, storm, delver suffers, goblins, Mono W taxes, Mill, Living end, Death Shadow...
B U T I's only relevant on the first 4 turns from my testing, after the first turns they can fight it easily.
I'm not sure I 100% agree here. Obviously Chalice is better the sooner you get it. But the decks you mention will also be significantly hurt by it later in the game, provided you're stabilizing. Admittedly at that point Chalice will not help you stabilize or dig you out of any hole you're in, but it will seal the deal so to speak. So while not great in the late game it is not always a dead draw.
Also I'm not sure how much of a problem the need for speed as, as a lot of highly playable cards are only good in the early game. If you can play a card that can win you the game on its own if it resolves on turns 1-3 then I'd run it. But then again, Chalice doesn't exactly win entirely on it's own. Which brings me to your next point...
We're running 4 moons and 4 chalices which are your prison elements, but both of them 90% of the times are only relevant on the first four turns and my feelings playing this deck are that after jamming the prison cards, you have to draw bombs turn after turn or get wrecked.
I will confess there have been a number of games where I have locked things down and then just sat there hoping to draw something that will win the game for me. So you're completely correct that you need some kind of pressure to push through the win. And in fact, if you look at my list in #449 you'll see it has every-so-slightly more threats than other lists around here. Chandra, Torch of Defiance is an all-star in this role since she is both a source of pressure and she helps you dig to the next threat. I also like Faithless Looting since it can help even in the very early game to make sure the lock happens fast.
But there are two other things that I want to note on this heading. First, there is a 3rd prison element you haven't listed, which does not rely so heavily on being played in the early game: Ensnaring Bridge. That one comes down best in the mid-game, and it's another one that many decks will have only 1-2 outs against (if any). It also drags the game on to the point where you can take your sweet time drawing your bombs.
Second, if any of the above prison elements are played effectively (early Moon or Chalice, or a hellbent Bridge), then you should really only need 1-2 'bombs' to pull through. Both Moon and Chalice aim to stop your opponent from adequately answering your bombs, so that you don't need to draw them turn after turn, but just one or two should do the trick. If no one can cast Fatal Push or Path to Exile, a single Rabblemaster can dominate the field. If creatures can't attack, a single planeswalker can go the distance.
Anyway, just some thoughts on the issues you raise. I think the problems you point to are real ones, but in my experience they haven't been as serious as you seem to be finding them. And I'm definitely not in the Chalice-or-bust camp, as the deck can operate fairly well without it. I do think Chalice adds something worth having though, and definitely helps some matchups (I'm looking at you, Burn)
Well, First of all: I know I don't know a lot about this pyro prison deck, but I am a very experienced player in some other decks (with good results). I tested the deck in cocka with and without chalices and have some interesting arguments here:
-With chalices: Some decks can't just play around a chalice with 1-2 counters, Boggles, burn, lantern, storm, delver suffers, goblins, Mono W taxes, Mill, Living end, Death Shadow...
B U T I's only relevant on the first 4 turns from my testing, after the first turns they can fight it easily.
We're running 4 moons and 4 chalices which are your prison elements, but both of them 90% of the times are only relevant on the first four turns and my feelings playing this deck are that after jamming the prison cards, you have to draw bombs turn after turn or get wrecked.
Probably I'm wrong, but that something I think.
Aslid explained things well. I think you should play a little more with the deck, as you seem to be judging from a very small sample. The deck is alot more consistent than it seems on paper, and alot of times you can feel behind most of the game but grind out a win. Sometimes you just win on turn 2.
Aslid covered the topic well, and Caligula notes that you really do have to play the deck to see how it can pivot & successively grow in board control to create havoc for traditional deck styles.
So, the question from WolfJulio is that Pyro Prison has lock elements that need to hit within 4 turns or they're rendered far less useful. Your quick citation of how the locks work and your experience in Lantern reveals that you know this game well & our shared tactics well, but Lantern develops without creatures nor planeswalkers - different animal. Keeping this relatively brief, a couple notes:
On a natural draw, our locks will appear in our hands 50% of the time. They statistically appear in 1 in 15 cards and our opening hand is 7-8 cards.
They do irritate in mid-game as well: If a chalice on 1 is irksome to an opponent, then it's a safe bet that a chalice on 2 will be vexing as well.
Multiple bridges, when they are needed, are certainly welcome
Multiple Moons (6) answers this concern about not having it early [1 in 10 cards].
A lot of that is restating what Aslid already did. As for 'The Lull', I wrote about that early in the thread's development. It's a natural game mechanic in a deck style like ours, but the power lock suite, Chalice/Moon/Bridge, is so golrammed effective that the clock almost stops ticking (unless it's abzan/x or a swelling tron board that will supercede it's need for Urza lands). And, that's why we have sideboards: furthering an unfavorable matchup for them into a straight up bad matchup.
As for battling 'The Lull', I use - as I often mention - Tormenting Voice. Some prefer Faithless Looting, but I have watched online games, and witnessed how the non-bo with chalice can be self-crippling. Also, in the blind, it's hard to know what to toss away to a faithless looting on turn 1 in a negative card-economy play. I'm not ignorant to FL's benefits: my prototype deck, listed in the official primer, has a single copy. It's just that you want to put down a chalice on 1 right away (scapeshift/titanshift/eldrazi are exceptions....not too many), which directly steps in the way of looting faithlessly.
In sum, I just don't agree that late draws of supplemental lock pieces is all that problematic - give it a spin. If the chalices aren't in the cards for your start due to a budget, then look to some of demelichkodin's writeups a couple pages ago for guidance. Good luck, and let us know how you fare - better than you may think you will, methinks.
I unfortunately do not have good news to report as I got the snot kicked out of me last night playing our beloved Pyro Prison deck. I managed a 1 - 3 record and I feel it's the first time I have viewed how fragile our lock pieces are and how heavily we rely on them.
Match 1 - Merfolk
Game 1 - Ended up mulling to 4 as I just kept getting flooded. Couldn't do much and got run over with only a chalice on 1 and 6 basic mountains to show for my efforts.
Game 3 - Mulled to 4, couldn't find a lock piece, died turn 4 to a god hand and a hand full of counter spells. I guess merfolk has changed their deck list because I certainly did not expect as many counters that hit me from this deck. Found the bridge when I was at 2 health but he Spell Pierced it and I tapped out.
0 - 1
Match 2 - Eldrazi Tron
Game 1 - God hand. I am on the draw. He plays a tron land, I blood moon turn 1. Turn 2 I rabble on and he has no answers.
Game 2 - Opening hand has blood moon, ensnaring bridge, chandra, mountain, desperate ritual, and something else but it didn't matter. I top deck a simian, turn 1 blood moon, Chandra ends up beating him down and the emblem finishes the job.
1 - 1
Match 3 - Blue Moon
I have never played against this deck but it seems that they have an answer for everything we're doing. I couldn't find any fast ramp after mulling to 5 and every hand did not have a single lock piece. I can't remember the exact details but game one I know he countered 6 (can you believe it) spells of mine in a row followed by serum visions to just help him smash through his deck and drooped a platinum emperion through madcap experiment which we have absolutely no answer to mainboard. The only way I could think of doing anything to change the game state is we get extremely lucky and can chandra into chandra to give that creature 8 damage. Second game was filled with a bunch of "draw, go, counter" plays from him but I ran out of gas and he did not. Platinum Emperion showed his face again through a madcap experiment and that was that. For the record, this deck only has 1 artifact and thats Platinum Emperion and once that hits the board, it negates all damage from the madcap experiment. Food for thought if any of you have the misfortune of sitting across the table from this deck, it feels almost as hopeless as U - Tron. Not sure what we can do other than get lucky with an opening hand and race but chances are they will find the madcap experiment before we do enough damage.
1 - 2
Match 4 - UW control
Countered everything I did, never ran out of gas and I was essentially playing solitare with my graveyard. Died both games to that flying 4/4 land.
1 - 3.
Miserable games and the worst performance I have experienced with our deck. I will have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what to do against a very control heavy meta at a new store. Bad luck had a lot to do with it because many of my games went, draw seven, 6 lands, mull, draw 6, no or 1 land with no ramp, mull, draw 5 and if you mull again you're pretty much dead already due to card disadvantage. Hopefully next week goes a little better but last night left a real salty taste in my mouth and I might switch to my GW tron deck to see if that's better at the new store.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
Hey....chin up there, Vegitas. A streak of bad luck at the card tables - it happens, gambler & let's be honest, Tier 1 decks don't go 1-3 on occasion? Anyhoo, ya gotta share your decklist alongside the performance, so we can get the full picture. Nevertheless........
Round 1 -- Merfolk? Yeeha, buckaroo. That's a good matchup. It's true that they have splashed white lately, but it's as linear as it gets for the shutdown. Bridge = Win. And, the neat thing is that Blood Moon, heretofore pretty useless except for mutavault, now has the ability shut down the multi-colored portion of their deck and their sideboard bring-ins. The merfolk fellas at my LGS dreads our matchups. I have lost exactly one round to merfolk - remember it vividly. You snagged a win with Goblin Rabblemaster - sharp - I usually take them out.
Sideboard:
+3 Anger of the Gods / +1 Torpor Orb / +1 Ratchet Bomb / +1 Witchbane Orb
- 4 Goblin Rabblemaster / -1 Magus of the Moon / -1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Question for the Thread: After Sideboarding, To Goblin Rabblemaster or Not To Goblin Rabblemaster? Secondly, I think I want to bring in the Phyrexian Revoker (2nd one) for early blocks & shut off of Mutavault/Aether Vial.....Shattering Spree as well???
Round 2 -- EldraziTron: 2-0 Win = Royal Flush
Round 3 -- Blue Moon: Alright, Game 1: You mull to 5 and have 6 spells counterspelled in a row? That's abuse. And, the next game turns into draw-go where he has the answers again? That's cruel and unusual. Platinum Emperion is outrageous - agreed. Modern has a new Show and Tell auto-win play. And, against decks like ours, it's even better than Emrakul, the Aeons Torn....in game 1. Sideboard! Referencing the following deck list by Nick Des Marais https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-madcap-moon-modern
>> In: 2 grafdigger's cage // 2 shattering spree // 1 ratchet bomb // 1 eidolon of the great revel // Hazoret the Fervent // Anger of the Gods
>> Out: 4 Blood Moon // 1 Ensnaring Bridge // 3 Tormenting Voice
Now, according to your synopsis, the word 'hopeless' was used in a matchup against the metalman. Nay, mountainman. Nay. There are 2 cards coming in which will demonstrate what happens when an Unstoppable Force meets an Immovable Object. Simply wait out the game until you draw Shattering Spree and fire it into the face of Emperion on replicate. Like Mr. Miyagi once remarked, "if done correctly, no can defend". Bonus might be knocking out our own bridge to spill pent up goblins across the battlefield for an alpha strike.
Round 4 - U/W control: Not much to go on here, so I'll just leave it on the high note of visualizing that Shattering Spree set to lethal: replicaaaaaaate.
I unfortunately do not have good news to report as I got the snot kicked out of me last night playing our beloved Pyro Prison deck. I managed a 1 - 3 record and I feel it's the first time I have viewed how fragile our lock pieces are and how heavily we rely on them.
Match 1 - Merfolk
Game 1 - Ended up mulling to 4 as I just kept getting flooded. Couldn't do much and got run over with only a chalice on 1 and 6 basic mountains to show for my efforts.
Game 3 - Mulled to 4, couldn't find a lock piece, died turn 4 to a god hand and a hand full of counter spells. I guess merfolk has changed their deck list because I certainly did not expect as many counters that hit me from this deck. Found the bridge when I was at 2 health but he Spell Pierced it and I tapped out.
0 - 1
Match 2 - Eldrazi Tron
Game 1 - God hand. I am on the draw. He plays a tron land, I blood moon turn 1. Turn 2 I rabble on and he has no answers.
Game 2 - Opening hand has blood moon, ensnaring bridge, chandra, mountain, desperate ritual, and something else but it didn't matter. I top deck a simian, turn 1 blood moon, Chandra ends up beating him down and the emblem finishes the job.
1 - 1
Match 3 - Blue Moon
I have never played against this deck but it seems that they have an answer for everything we're doing. I couldn't find any fast ramp after mulling to 5 and every hand did not have a single lock piece. I can't remember the exact details but game one I know he countered 6 (can you believe it) spells of mine in a row followed by serum visions to just help him smash through his deck and drooped a platinum emperion through madcap experiment which we have absolutely no answer to mainboard. The only way I could think of doing anything to change the game state is we get extremely lucky and can chandra into chandra to give that creature 8 damage. Second game was filled with a bunch of "draw, go, counter" plays from him but I ran out of gas and he did not. Platinum Emperion showed his face again through a madcap experiment and that was that. For the record, this deck only has 1 artifact and thats Platinum Emperion and once that hits the board, it negates all damage from the madcap experiment. Food for thought if any of you have the misfortune of sitting across the table from this deck, it feels almost as hopeless as U - Tron. Not sure what we can do other than get lucky with an opening hand and race but chances are they will find the madcap experiment before we do enough damage.
1 - 2
Match 4 - UW control
Countered everything I did, never ran out of gas and I was essentially playing solitare with my graveyard. Died both games to that flying 4/4 land.
1 - 3.
Miserable games and the worst performance I have experienced with our deck. I will have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what to do against a very control heavy meta at a new store. Bad luck had a lot to do with it because many of my games went, draw seven, 6 lands, mull, draw 6, no or 1 land with no ramp, mull, draw 5 and if you mull again you're pretty much dead already due to card disadvantage. Hopefully next week goes a little better but last night left a real salty taste in my mouth and I might switch to my GW tron deck to see if that's better at the new store.
I feel your pain man.. I played a match against the dreaded U-Tron last night, and I can definitely say, counter heavy decks are especially tough when our locks don't really effect their game plan.. this was a Jeskai variant playing weird things like Sundial of the Infinite and pacts. At one point in G2 he went Mana Leak, Snap/Mana Leak, Disallow, Cryptic, Torrential Gearhulk/Cryptic. Not much I could do with that.. U-Tron isn't very common though, so I'm not too worried about that matchup.
On the other hand, Esper draw-go type control is much more commonly played, and can be middling as well, depending on the speed of our hand. Because of this and any counter heavy matchups, I'm trying to find a way to squeeze in 2 Defense Grid in the SB, as it should buy us enough time to build our pillow fort if we can land one early.
Another troubling matchup I've discovered, RW Prison/Nahiri. Moon and Chalice are no good, Bridge keeps us from getting Emrakul'd, but it seriously inhibits our ability to interact with their diverse array of Planeswalkers, making a Gideon of the Trials emblem unbeatable, and if that's still not enough, they have Cast Out MD to deal with Bridge or Chandra/Koth.
With that said, we have U-Tron, RW Prison, and sometimes draw-go control as matchups I'd rate less than 50-50 for us.. but there's not many more, my fellow Mountainfolk. In a format as diverse as modern, it's tough, if not impossible, to be the favorite everytime, and even if we are, probability is an untamable beast. Here's an example;
In my early 20's, online poker was extremely profitable, and I made a job out of it 07-08, making 26k and 29k tax claims those years. Texas Hold-em was the game, and this particular hand I was looking at KK, and I had $268.. I'll never forget it. The flop was KKJ, 2 diamonds. I check, he bets, I smooth call. The turn was 2 of diamonds, I'm guessing he hit his flush and I lead out, he raises. I just call, not wanting to scare him away if he had a lesser flush. The river was the 10 of diamonds, and he shoves all-in over the top of my bet. I snap-call to see Q9 of diamonds, straight flush. I lose that hand 1/200 times. .5 percent. Way longer odds than us losing to Merfolk, but it just happens that way once in a while.
Hey....chin up there, Vegitas. A streak of bad luck at the card tables - it happens, gambler. First, ya gotta share your decklist alongside the performance, so we can get the full picture. Nevertheless........
Round 1 -- Merfolk? Yeeha, buckaroo. That's a good matchup. It's true that they have splashed white lately, but it's as linear as it gets for the shutdown. Bridge = Win. And, the neat thing is that Blood Moon, heretofore pretty useless except for mishra's factory, now has the ability shut down the multi-colored portion of their deck and their sideboard bring-ins. The merfolk fellas at my LGS dreads our matchups. I have lost exactly one round to merfolk - remember it vividly. You snagged a win with Goblin Rabblemaster - sharp - I usually take them out.
Sideboard:
+3 Anger of the Gods / +1 Torpor Orb / +1 Ratchet Bomb / +1 Witchbane Orb
- 4 Goblin Rabblemaster / -1 Magus of the Moon / -1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Question for the Thread: After Sideboarding, To Goblin Rabblemaster or Not To Goblin Rabblemaster?
Round 2 -- EldraziTron: 2-0 Win = Royal Flush
Round 3 -- Blue Moon: Alright, Game 1: You mull to 5 and have 6 spells counterspelled in a row? That's abuse. And, the next game turns into draw-go where he has the answers again? That's cruel and unusual. Platinum Emperion is outrageous - agreed. Modern has a new Show and Tell auto-win play. And, against decks like ours, it's even better than Emrakul, the Aeons Torn....in game 1. Sideboard! Referencing the following deck list by Nick Des Marais https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-madcap-moon-modern
>> In: 2 grafdigger's cage // 2 shattering spree // 1 ratchet bomb // 1 eidolon of the great revel // Hazoret the Fervent // Anger of the Gods
>> Out: 4 Blood Moon // 1 Ensnaring Bridge // 3 Tormenting Voice
Now, according to your synopsis, the word 'hopeless' was used in a matchup against the metalman. Nay, mountainman. Nay. There are 2 cards coming in which will demonstrate what happens when an Unstoppable Force meets an Immovable Object. Simply wait out the game until you draw Shattering Spree and fire it into the face of Emperion on replicate. Like Mr. Miyagi once remarked, "if done correctly, no can defend". Bonus might be knocking out our own bridge to spill pent up goblins across the battlefield for an alpha strike.
Round 4 - U/W control: Not much to go on here, so I'll just leave it on the high note of visualizing that Shattering Spree set to lethal: replicaaaaaaate.
Excellent advice Ray, thank you for taking the time to break it all down. Your sideboarding advice will definitely be taken into consideration. It's very refreshing to have someone as experienced as you to bounce idea's off of.
Merfolk - I play this guy a lot and he's in my wedding party so I know it inside and out. If you never draw into a bridge or chalice after mulling to 4 then there's nothing this deck can do for you. Just the way she goes unfortunately. Hopefully next week I will have better luck but more than half of my matches I flooded out and I'm playing with 21 lands.
Madcap moon - Definitely the deck list I was playing against last night but he had 4 remand because I got hit with three in a row along with spell pierce and mana leak haha. I didn't see any snapcaster mage's or cryptic command but he hand me under his thumb for most of the match so he could have been sandbagging them.
UW Control - This list was using as foretold so they're dropping crazy card draw for free with Ancestral Vision and serum visions every turn (yours and theirs) as well as the previous suite of counterspells and bounce spells. Celestial Colonnade is a beast that just eats our planeswalkers in 1 hit. Unfortunately the bridge is irrelevant because it can easily be bounced or countered or snapcaster will pick up a relevant spell up that they've already used. We can't play around their counters because they're drawing substantially more cards than us right out of the gate and any respecting UW player will always leave up 2 mana even if they have nothing. I find the only way to combat them is to just run into their spells and hope that we have more gas than them.
I feel like the turn 1 blood moon is the best way to stop them from establishing their plan and allowing us enough time to get our pieces into place. I also feel that Shattering spree has no place here as they don't use any artifacts in their main deck.
**Edit** - Big thanks to Caligula as well for his insight. All of this is helping me be a better warden for our pyro prison.
Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
Well, I cheekily like to say that a 'Sideboard Deck' doesn't have a bad matchup It's progressive of us to start recognizing that youthful indestructibility passes into mindful adult conversations. I aggrandize. I know. Yes, U Tron is a bad matchup. Abzan/x [coco/chord] with Spell queller. Yup, that one too. But, Caligula's poker story exemplifies the law of averages - we're still extraordinarily well positioned.
Facing Counterspell/Control Decks
You nailed it Vegitas: "just run into their spells and hope we have more gas than them". Some discussion on this topic: card economy. First, your mulliganning has got to be frustrating, and although I readily do it once (7 cards is about the same as 6 with a scry), I rarely drop below 6 cards, because land distribution becomes dicey. So, try to keep card counts high, and trust in the draws and dig. You mentioned merfolk: Bridge - sure, but sweepers will reset the game. And, what's your removal: Magma Jet, Sweltering Suns or my combo card: Arc Trail.
Threat density. It's all about presenting 'must counterspell' cards to the opponent where finally they run out of gas. Honestly, if we don't get out ahead of them with a chalice or moon to slow their development, then they can start to pick off our principal threats with draw-go shenanigans. Again and again, I say it: Tormenting Voice. It's a win-win if it's countered or it isn't.
Facing R/W Sun and Moon decks
As for the commentary on R/W sun and moon decks with Gideon Jura emblems and pillow fort archetypes. I get the allure. They can answer everything, but what are they offering - Exclusive Planeswalker wins? Diplomatically speaking...it's a shield deck that turtles up even harder in games 2 and 3 behind some terrific white enchantments. Hey, it's had some strong showings, and I respect the hell out of the archetype. But, it's a readily identifiable, linear formula which can be sideboarded against. Games 2/3 become wars of answer cards - shield size. I prefer to sharpen the spear.
I was talking to an experienced Sun and Moon player at a 1k while we were watching another Sun and Moon player slowly lose ground to an eldrazi deck. He talked about cast out and banishing light and journey to nowhere -- He mixes the types, so he's not vulnerable to maelstrom pulse. 1-for-1 answer cards is not how you win a tournament, mountainfolk. What deck is the undisputed king of 1-for-1 answer cards? Jund. Where is Jund today? It has slipped from Tier 1 down to Tier 2 down to Developing Competitive.
Obviously, there is waaaay more to their deck than 1-for-1 responses, and I don't want to underestimate the power of their planeswalkers. Just saying, that folks know how to react in games 2/3. But, folks struggle with how to best answer our deck after sideboarding. They aren't naturally prepared and they can't do things like 'take out all the creature kill'.
Speaking to Caligula's thoughts on Defense Grid, and this predilection to turtle up. Fight it. Rage...Rage against it.
Hey all, gonna be heading to a Modern PPTQ this weekend with the deck. I'm not too heart-set on winning since I think the thing you qualify for is a Standard tourney (i don't play standard and don't really want to) but thought it would fun to play in a little more competitive environment, as my home store is fairly casual. With that in mind, I thought I'd run my decklist by y'all in case you had any suggestions:
Just a few notes:
- decided to take Rays' advice on the Tormenting Voices
- the removal suite is kind of random, so many pros and cons on everything. want to try out Abrade as it does seem pretty good, and I like the idea of having an out in the Madcap Empyrion situation. plus it smashes Aether Vial. Pyroclasm and Sweltering Suns are both solid in different ways.
- Ratchet Bomb could be something else I guess, maybe another aggressive creature, as I feel a little light on those. but it's nice to have a silver bullet, just sometimes it shows up at the wrong time.
- I'm at 22 lands, the 21-land version was running a little lean for me, but I could be talked into it again
- thinking of sticking a Trinisphere on the sideboard, as it shuts down Storm and As Foretold to some degree, and isn't bad against Affinity either if you get it early enough
Well, I cheekily like to say that a 'Sideboard Deck' doesn't have a bad matchup It's progressive of us to start recognizing that youthful indestructibility passes into mindful adult conversations. I aggrandize. I know. Yes, U Tron is a bad matchup. Abzan/x [coco/chord] with Spell queller. Yup, that one too. But, Caligula's poker story exemplifies the law of averages - we're still extraordinarily well positioned.
While we're talking about our "bad" matchups..I have a real concern; Solemnity.
Our problems here are two-fold; first of all, this deck looks great. I would go as far as saying it's possibly better than Abzan, even without CoCo, because the double enchantment lock is incredibly tough to deal with for most decks. But we don't care about most decks, we only care about Pyro Prison. So, since I he combo also shuts off Ratchet Bomb.. we have no outs. Zero.
The second concern I have with this combo is, both pieces only cost 1w, so almost anything splashing white could presumably slot it in. Even if the above deck doesn't take off, but other decks run this combo to a point where a considerable chunk of the meta is running it.. we could be in a far less desirable spot.
Well, I cheekily like to say that a 'Sideboard Deck' doesn't have a bad matchup It's progressive of us to start recognizing that youthful indestructibility passes into mindful adult conversations. I aggrandize. I know. Yes, U Tron is a bad matchup. Abzan/x [coco/chord] with Spell queller. Yup, that one too. But, Caligula's poker story exemplifies the law of averages - we're still extraordinarily well positioned.
While we're talking about our "bad" matchups..I have a real concern; [c.ard]Solemnity[/card].
Our problems here are two-fold; first of all, this deck looks great. I would go as far as saying it's possibly better than Abzan, even without CoCo, because the double enchantment lock is incredibly tough to deal with for most decks. But we don't care about most decks, we only care about Pyro Prison. So, since I he combo also shuts off Ratchet Bomb.. we have no outs. Zero.
The second concern I have with this combo is, both pieces only cost 1w, so almost anything splashing white could presumably slot it in. Even if the above deck doesn't take off, but other decks run this combo to a point where a considerable chunk of the meta is running it.. we could be in a far less desirable spot.
Bouncing off of this, and this is all speculation under the assumption that this two card combo becomes a thing; we may need to splash a small amount of white or green so that we finally have enchantment removal. I have felt for quite some time that our complete lack of enchantment removal has been our greatest weakness.
**EDIT** - Crazy thought. Splashing white so that we may incorporate this into our own prison and also have access to enchantment removal in the sideboard.
Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
I've also considered splashing white, but that's a complete overhaul, and the current RW Prison list uses Gideon in place of the 8 enchantments, which might be more efficient overall. The idea of using nevermore to protect our lock has always intrigued me though.
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You know, I've been wondering about the lantern player myself, maybe he was just having a bad day..? He wasn't a very nice guy though, and I don't think he even stayed to play a 3rd match. The final match, I think, was more a case of the guy wanting to take his prize and go, rather than not wanting to play me specifically. I offered to play for a 24-12 split of the box but he still wanted to chop it, so I said ok. I just wanted to play another match, but I wasn't going to make him play.
As for the other matches, clamoring for bannings is very common at that store lol, I heard people calling for bannings of SSG, Chalice, Blood Moon, Ad Nauseum and even Snapcaster! I didn't take anything personally! Except for the first match everyone was friendly and complimented the deck, curious as to what exactly I was playing. It wasn't nearly as bad as my "psychiatrist" story made it seem.
Do these things still exist? I recall my LGS in Massachusetts banning Hymn to Tourach and Goblin Grenade shortly after Fallen Empires was released. Shortly thereafter, when I was studying abroad in Scotland, my new LGS regularly banned whatever card kicked ass for 2 weeks in a row. You know things were getting out of hand when Elemental Augury and Millstone were put on the chopping block.
PS in the 3 competitive leagues I've gone through I've gotten enough tickets from my winnings to buy 1 chalice and enough points to play several free leagues, so the deck has been really paying off.
Decklist, since why not:
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Koth of the Hammer
4 Blood Moon
2 Sweltering Suns
1 Pyroclasm
2 Faithless Looting
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Gemstone Caverns
19 Mountain
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Pyroclasm
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 By Force
1 Vandalblast
Took Ray's advice RE Pyroclasm over Magma Jet. It's just a 1-of so can't say it made a huge change but hey. Chalice of the Void certainly did make a pretty big difference. I think I can solidly say that it is better than Bolts in that it answers a lot more plays and is more back-breaking in the right matchup. Still, the two cards are so different that in the right meta Bolt might be better.
As for the matches, since we all love hearing stories, here you go:
Round 1 against Lantern Control: I get the bye put play against my friend's Lantern deck just for fun. First game we both mulligan to 5. My 5 are Mountain, 3 Simian Spirit Guide and Koth of the Hammer. So I go turn 1 Koth and hope for the best. No Pithing Needle means I win this, though kind of slowly. Second game Magus of the Moon holds down his mana and planeswalkers carry me to victory against a lot of Ensnaring Bridges. It is nice to have non-creature win-cons.
Round 2 against a 4-color Scapeshift deck: He was using some spell with converge that would tutor-and-cast as copies 4-8 of Scapeshift. Game one I mulligan to 5, go turn 1 Rabblemaster, but it gets bolted and I don't put much together before combos out. Game two I go turn 1 or 2 Blood Moon and just win off Chandra quickly afterward. Last game goes similarly, with a Chalice on 2 shutting down a lot of his random spells and Witchbane Orb turning off his combo. Played a few more after the match and won one of those, lost one as well.
Round 3 against Abzan Creature Combos: game one goes slow. I try to get him with Rabblemasters but he slows me down and stabilizes, though he doesn't have any combos. I drop Ensnaring Bridge and a Chalice on 2. He's attacking me with a Birds of Paradise for 1 after exalted triggers for a while. I drop Koth of the Hammer and he turns to attack Koth instead. Meanwhile he is also tutoring a few things, though oddly not the combo. Eventually I Sweltering Suns to get rid of the birds, hit Koth's ultimate, and win off it. After the game it became clear that he could have probably won if he had tutored Rhonas the Indomitable to do more damage through the bird, but hey. Game two I pick off his guys early game with added pressure from Pia and Kiran Nalaar and keep him off Chord mana with Blood Moon. P&K only go so far, and eventually I drop bridge and hide behind it. Chandra's ultimate ends up carrying the day. I felt unsure in this matchup whether I should attempt to be the aggressor or play the more controlling game. It seems that the aggressive strategy is not hugely effective, as they are better at that than we are, so maybe in the future I'll board out the Rabblemasters? At the same time, however, we need pressure since given the time they will just assemble their combos and blow us out.
Round 4 against Burn: this was the guy I lost to last week, so maybe a bit of a grudge match, and I was eager to see how the Chalices performed. They did not disappoint. First game sees a Chalice at 1 followed soon after by a Chalice at 2 and he just scoops. Game 2 I drop Chalice, Moon, and Witchbane Orb. He has Destructive Revelry for the first two but not the last one. We played a few more games after this with the decks both before and after board and I won all of them for a total of 5 wins against burn - feels good man.
Anyway, not that anyone asked for a long story like this, but I enjoy reading other people's so I thought I'd share in case y'all felt the same.
My list is not particularly edgy or fresh; perhaps the only remarkable thing is that I kept Faithless Looting in despite the presence of Chalice of the Void. My thinking is that I won't always draw Chalice, nor will I always set it at 1, and in some matches I might even side it out. I felt the deck could use just a touch of card-drawing, and I liked Looting more than Tormenting Voice for having flashback, and not having negative synergy with the Ensnaring Bridge. It is also nice in that you can play it turn 1 and occasionally draw into an explosive turn 2.
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
It seems Aslid chose.....wisely. The addition of Chalice of the Void = 4-0. Well done and well written. I see some unique approaches to the deck, and that Jehovah the Fervent has slipped into your main list. I can get behind that as she was a thunderclap of power in my wins last night as well. The one question that you posed had to do with siding in/siding out the Moons vs. Abzan Creature Combos. Honestly, I never know. It depends on if you're on the play/draw and how strongly you feel about your sweepers.
Speaking of sweepers, I brought back an old gem and me likey: Arc Trail. So, first, I went 3-1 losing to Grixis Delver which is baffling since we love this matchup...actually, he had absolute nut draws in both of his wins, which he readily admitted, leveraging my 2 least favorite cards against me: Kolaghan's Command and Engineered Explosives.
Back to Arc Trail: it's basically a 1-sided mini-pyroclasm that catches critters that snuck out before the moon / chalice got dropped, and it doesn't kill my horde: Goblin Rabblemaster, Pia and Kiran + Tokens, Magus of the Moon, Siege-Gang Commander. Unlike Sweltering Suns / Anger of the Gods, it can go to the face or knock a planeswalker in the belly, and it only costs 2-cmc. I can't believe that it was forgotten for so long - prob. due to the rise of phat beaters. Give it a try!
Tourney Report
Round 1 - Esper Gifts Goryo: 2-0 // I open with a Turn 1 Rabble-Rabble and start to charge. He goes turn 2 mini-Jace 0/2. If I was holding a sweeper=boned. But, arc trail it off the board and continue charging (obviously magma jet would do well here as well). Locks fell upon the board and attack took game 1. In game 2, I mull into an interesting hand that almost has a Turn 1 Iahovah the Fervent. Instead it develops into a turn 2 God and Chandra +1 beats. Luckily, he whiffed on not getting Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into the graveyard.
Round 2 - Grixis Death's Shadow: 0-2 // These games follow typical arcs. They try to get in early discard, a timely stubborn denial, and hope for Kolaghan's Commands doubled through Snapcaster Mage to knock out bridges for an attacking win. Favorability in this matchup for us is 75%+. In game 1, the Kommand knocked out Magus and a chalice on 1. In game 2, I fan open a hand with 2 mountain, 1 SSG, 1 Goblin Rabblemaster, and 3 Bridge. Bridge = victory (unless liliana), so sure. He rips one from the hand and then E.E. the other 2 alongside a Blood Moon. Tussledfur attack for the win. This is one of those instances where I wonder about Phyrexian Metamorph. Since it dodges E.E. shenanigans and can drop as a double chalice on "0" against Living End decks, is this a viable card to keep in the 75? Obviously, it can be the 5th Rabblemaster as well...at the moment, I'm thinking that I like it more than siege-gang commander in this slot.
Round 3 - Bogles: 2-0 // This is perhaps our best matchup?? I will say say that in game 1, I was desperately looking for a bridge whilst chump blocking. I tore off (3) Tormenting Voices in a row. Threeeeeeeee. Bridge Located and Deployed. Try this card, mountainfolk. I implore you. In game 2, I did a turn 2 spellskite, and began a waiting game for the bridge - it came and that was the game. But, I did note that he plays worship. We don't have 'loss of life' effects, so the saving grace here would be ratchet bomb. I'd never run a 75 without this silver bullet.
Round 4 - Grixis Death's Shadow 2-0 // I play this opponent often, and he told me that he has kept track: he has only beat my Pyro Prison deck once. Not for the round...a single game. I went turn 1 Blood Moon in game 1 which had him quickly discarding down to 7 during his end step. Turn 1 Chalice occurred in Game 2. Collect my 8 packs for the night and head home.
Here's the decklist & I feel like I'm pretty well settled on the design:
Creatures (9)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Accelerators (12)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Blood Moon
Planeswalker (4)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
Artifacts (8)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
Disruption (2)
2 Arc Trail
Lands (21)
17 Mountains
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Torpor Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Dragon's Claw
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Spellskite
Changes:
The sideboard lost Ricochet Trap and Tezzeret's Gambit. Trap is just too situational. Again, I'd rather play a threat than hope that I have a clever answer. And, Tezzeret's Gambit can be a surprise play, but perhaps just a bit too clever for its own good. Eidolon of the Great Revel comes in - testing it out against decks that don't deliver much damage to me in their development and I added Dragon's Claw...well, c'mon - that's easy.
The maindeck picked up a couple arc trail in lieu of sweltering suns. Mostly? I don't have to knock my own critters off the board and it costs 1 less. Unlike Suns, arc trail always has some sort of application, and I don't miss the cycling that much. I swapped the Magma Jet for a single Phyrexian Revoker: it better disrupts our opponents aims.
Lastly, I thought it might be neat to see the Decklist mapped out as Game Development:
Turn 1: (4) Simian Spirit Guide // (3) Gemstone Caverns
Turn 2: (5) Rituals // (3) Tormenting Voice // (4) Chalice of the Void // (2) Arc Trail // (1) Phyrexian Revoker
Turn 3: (6) Blood Moon // (4) Ensnaring Bridge // (4) Goblin Rabblemaster // (5th) Mystery Metamorph
Turn 4: (3) Chandra, Torch of Defiance // (1) Koth of the Hammer // (1) Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Now, I ask you....How about that?
I definitely love reading well written, detailed tournament reports, Aslid, keep them coming! Congrats on the W!
Congrats to Ray as well! Some interesting changes as of late..
Pyroclasm; played a few matches with 2 'clasm MD last night, and I'm definitely in.. I thumbed through my collection and was shocked to find I don't own any Arc Trail, they're in the mail now. They might be the better option.
Phyrexian Metamorph; I'm surprised this hasn't been thought of before! I love the idea, this guy is in the mail as well.
Hazoret the Fervent; my God, I love this card. She has been moved to the starting 60 for me as well, not only for her body, but also as a discard outlet, which comes in handy. Although she DOES have an excellent body!
Abrade and Hour of Devistation are a couple new cards I'm looking forward to testing, although the former has lost some of its appeal after trying 'clasm.
And this.. this is beautiful. Keep chuckin cardboard Mountainfolk!
YOUTUBE CHANNEL: GOBOTS
I'm not sure I 100% agree here. Obviously Chalice is better the sooner you get it. But the decks you mention will also be significantly hurt by it later in the game, provided you're stabilizing. Admittedly at that point Chalice will not help you stabilize or dig you out of any hole you're in, but it will seal the deal so to speak. So while not great in the late game it is not always a dead draw.
Also I'm not sure how much of a problem the need for speed as, as a lot of highly playable cards are only good in the early game. If you can play a card that can win you the game on its own if it resolves on turns 1-3 then I'd run it. But then again, Chalice doesn't exactly win entirely on it's own. Which brings me to your next point...
I will confess there have been a number of games where I have locked things down and then just sat there hoping to draw something that will win the game for me. So you're completely correct that you need some kind of pressure to push through the win. And in fact, if you look at my list in #449 you'll see it has every-so-slightly more threats than other lists around here. Chandra, Torch of Defiance is an all-star in this role since she is both a source of pressure and she helps you dig to the next threat. I also like Faithless Looting since it can help even in the very early game to make sure the lock happens fast.
But there are two other things that I want to note on this heading. First, there is a 3rd prison element you haven't listed, which does not rely so heavily on being played in the early game: Ensnaring Bridge. That one comes down best in the mid-game, and it's another one that many decks will have only 1-2 outs against (if any). It also drags the game on to the point where you can take your sweet time drawing your bombs.
Second, if any of the above prison elements are played effectively (early Moon or Chalice, or a hellbent Bridge), then you should really only need 1-2 'bombs' to pull through. Both Moon and Chalice aim to stop your opponent from adequately answering your bombs, so that you don't need to draw them turn after turn, but just one or two should do the trick. If no one can cast Fatal Push or Path to Exile, a single Rabblemaster can dominate the field. If creatures can't attack, a single planeswalker can go the distance.
Anyway, just some thoughts on the issues you raise. I think the problems you point to are real ones, but in my experience they haven't been as serious as you seem to be finding them. And I'm definitely not in the Chalice-or-bust camp, as the deck can operate fairly well without it. I do think Chalice adds something worth having though, and definitely helps some matchups (I'm looking at you, Burn)
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
Aslid explained things well. I think you should play a little more with the deck, as you seem to be judging from a very small sample. The deck is alot more consistent than it seems on paper, and alot of times you can feel behind most of the game but grind out a win. Sometimes you just win on turn 2.
So, the question from WolfJulio is that Pyro Prison has lock elements that need to hit within 4 turns or they're rendered far less useful. Your quick citation of how the locks work and your experience in Lantern reveals that you know this game well & our shared tactics well, but Lantern develops without creatures nor planeswalkers - different animal. Keeping this relatively brief, a couple notes:
- On a natural draw, our locks will appear in our hands 50% of the time. They statistically appear in 1 in 15 cards and our opening hand is 7-8 cards.
- They do irritate in mid-game as well: If a chalice on 1 is irksome to an opponent, then it's a safe bet that a chalice on 2 will be vexing as well.
- Multiple bridges, when they are needed, are certainly welcome
- Multiple Moons (6) answers this concern about not having it early [1 in 10 cards].
A lot of that is restating what Aslid already did. As for 'The Lull', I wrote about that early in the thread's development. It's a natural game mechanic in a deck style like ours, but the power lock suite, Chalice/Moon/Bridge, is so golrammed effective that the clock almost stops ticking (unless it's abzan/x or a swelling tron board that will supercede it's need for Urza lands). And, that's why we have sideboards: furthering an unfavorable matchup for them into a straight up bad matchup.As for battling 'The Lull', I use - as I often mention - Tormenting Voice. Some prefer Faithless Looting, but I have watched online games, and witnessed how the non-bo with chalice can be self-crippling. Also, in the blind, it's hard to know what to toss away to a faithless looting on turn 1 in a negative card-economy play. I'm not ignorant to FL's benefits: my prototype deck, listed in the official primer, has a single copy. It's just that you want to put down a chalice on 1 right away (scapeshift/titanshift/eldrazi are exceptions....not too many), which directly steps in the way of looting faithlessly.
In sum, I just don't agree that late draws of supplemental lock pieces is all that problematic - give it a spin. If the chalices aren't in the cards for your start due to a budget, then look to some of demelichkodin's writeups a couple pages ago for guidance. Good luck, and let us know how you fare - better than you may think you will, methinks.
I unfortunately do not have good news to report as I got the snot kicked out of me last night playing our beloved Pyro Prison deck. I managed a 1 - 3 record and I feel it's the first time I have viewed how fragile our lock pieces are and how heavily we rely on them.
Match 1 - Merfolk
Game 1 - Ended up mulling to 4 as I just kept getting flooded. Couldn't do much and got run over with only a chalice on 1 and 6 basic mountains to show for my efforts.
Game 2 - Landed a turn 1 Goblin Rabblemaster and he missed his turn 1 Aether Vial. Dropped blood moon on turn 2 with a chalice of the void on 2 turn 3. He misplayed and didn't block my rabblemaster because he wanted to blast off on my end step with merrow reejerey and aether vial but my magma jet got him.
Game 3 - Mulled to 4, couldn't find a lock piece, died turn 4 to a god hand and a hand full of counter spells. I guess merfolk has changed their deck list because I certainly did not expect as many counters that hit me from this deck. Found the bridge when I was at 2 health but he Spell Pierced it and I tapped out.
0 - 1
Match 2 - Eldrazi Tron
Game 1 - God hand. I am on the draw. He plays a tron land, I blood moon turn 1. Turn 2 I rabble on and he has no answers.
Game 2 - Opening hand has blood moon, ensnaring bridge, chandra, mountain, desperate ritual, and something else but it didn't matter. I top deck a simian, turn 1 blood moon, Chandra ends up beating him down and the emblem finishes the job.
1 - 1
Match 3 - Blue Moon
I have never played against this deck but it seems that they have an answer for everything we're doing. I couldn't find any fast ramp after mulling to 5 and every hand did not have a single lock piece. I can't remember the exact details but game one I know he countered 6 (can you believe it) spells of mine in a row followed by serum visions to just help him smash through his deck and drooped a platinum emperion through madcap experiment which we have absolutely no answer to mainboard. The only way I could think of doing anything to change the game state is we get extremely lucky and can chandra into chandra to give that creature 8 damage. Second game was filled with a bunch of "draw, go, counter" plays from him but I ran out of gas and he did not. Platinum Emperion showed his face again through a madcap experiment and that was that. For the record, this deck only has 1 artifact and thats Platinum Emperion and once that hits the board, it negates all damage from the madcap experiment. Food for thought if any of you have the misfortune of sitting across the table from this deck, it feels almost as hopeless as U - Tron. Not sure what we can do other than get lucky with an opening hand and race but chances are they will find the madcap experiment before we do enough damage.
1 - 2
Match 4 - UW control
Countered everything I did, never ran out of gas and I was essentially playing solitare with my graveyard. Died both games to that flying 4/4 land.
1 - 3.
Miserable games and the worst performance I have experienced with our deck. I will have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what to do against a very control heavy meta at a new store. Bad luck had a lot to do with it because many of my games went, draw seven, 6 lands, mull, draw 6, no or 1 land with no ramp, mull, draw 5 and if you mull again you're pretty much dead already due to card disadvantage. Hopefully next week goes a little better but last night left a real salty taste in my mouth and I might switch to my GW tron deck to see if that's better at the new store.
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
Round 1 -- Merfolk? Yeeha, buckaroo. That's a good matchup. It's true that they have splashed white lately, but it's as linear as it gets for the shutdown. Bridge = Win. And, the neat thing is that Blood Moon, heretofore pretty useless except for mutavault, now has the ability shut down the multi-colored portion of their deck and their sideboard bring-ins. The merfolk fellas at my LGS dreads our matchups. I have lost exactly one round to merfolk - remember it vividly. You snagged a win with Goblin Rabblemaster - sharp - I usually take them out.
Sideboard:
+3 Anger of the Gods / +1 Torpor Orb / +1 Ratchet Bomb / +1 Witchbane Orb
- 4 Goblin Rabblemaster / -1 Magus of the Moon / -1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Question for the Thread: After Sideboarding, To Goblin Rabblemaster or Not To Goblin Rabblemaster? Secondly, I think I want to bring in the Phyrexian Revoker (2nd one) for early blocks & shut off of Mutavault/Aether Vial.....Shattering Spree as well???
Round 2 -- EldraziTron: 2-0 Win = Royal Flush
Round 3 -- Blue Moon: Alright, Game 1: You mull to 5 and have 6 spells counterspelled in a row? That's abuse. And, the next game turns into draw-go where he has the answers again? That's cruel and unusual. Platinum Emperion is outrageous - agreed. Modern has a new Show and Tell auto-win play. And, against decks like ours, it's even better than Emrakul, the Aeons Torn....in game 1. Sideboard! Referencing the following deck list by Nick Des Marais
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-madcap-moon-modern
>> In: 2 grafdigger's cage // 2 shattering spree // 1 ratchet bomb // 1 eidolon of the great revel // Hazoret the Fervent // Anger of the Gods
>> Out: 4 Blood Moon // 1 Ensnaring Bridge // 3 Tormenting Voice
Now, according to your synopsis, the word 'hopeless' was used in a matchup against the metalman. Nay, mountainman. Nay. There are 2 cards coming in which will demonstrate what happens when an Unstoppable Force meets an Immovable Object. Simply wait out the game until you draw Shattering Spree and fire it into the face of Emperion on replicate. Like Mr. Miyagi once remarked, "if done correctly, no can defend". Bonus might be knocking out our own bridge to spill pent up goblins across the battlefield for an alpha strike.
Round 4 - U/W control: Not much to go on here, so I'll just leave it on the high note of visualizing that Shattering Spree set to lethal: replicaaaaaaate.
I feel your pain man.. I played a match against the dreaded U-Tron last night, and I can definitely say, counter heavy decks are especially tough when our locks don't really effect their game plan.. this was a Jeskai variant playing weird things like Sundial of the Infinite and pacts. At one point in G2 he went Mana Leak, Snap/Mana Leak, Disallow, Cryptic, Torrential Gearhulk/Cryptic. Not much I could do with that.. U-Tron isn't very common though, so I'm not too worried about that matchup.
On the other hand, Esper draw-go type control is much more commonly played, and can be middling as well, depending on the speed of our hand. Because of this and any counter heavy matchups, I'm trying to find a way to squeeze in 2 Defense Grid in the SB, as it should buy us enough time to build our pillow fort if we can land one early.
Another troubling matchup I've discovered, RW Prison/Nahiri. Moon and Chalice are no good, Bridge keeps us from getting Emrakul'd, but it seriously inhibits our ability to interact with their diverse array of Planeswalkers, making a Gideon of the Trials emblem unbeatable, and if that's still not enough, they have Cast Out MD to deal with Bridge or Chandra/Koth.
With that said, we have U-Tron, RW Prison, and sometimes draw-go control as matchups I'd rate less than 50-50 for us.. but there's not many more, my fellow Mountainfolk. In a format as diverse as modern, it's tough, if not impossible, to be the favorite everytime, and even if we are, probability is an untamable beast. Here's an example;
In my early 20's, online poker was extremely profitable, and I made a job out of it 07-08, making 26k and 29k tax claims those years. Texas Hold-em was the game, and this particular hand I was looking at KK, and I had $268.. I'll never forget it. The flop was KKJ, 2 diamonds. I check, he bets, I smooth call. The turn was 2 of diamonds, I'm guessing he hit his flush and I lead out, he raises. I just call, not wanting to scare him away if he had a lesser flush. The river was the 10 of diamonds, and he shoves all-in over the top of my bet. I snap-call to see Q9 of diamonds, straight flush. I lose that hand 1/200 times. .5 percent. Way longer odds than us losing to Merfolk, but it just happens that way once in a while.
Abrade, Abrade, Abrade
Excellent advice Ray, thank you for taking the time to break it all down. Your sideboarding advice will definitely be taken into consideration. It's very refreshing to have someone as experienced as you to bounce idea's off of.
Merfolk - I play this guy a lot and he's in my wedding party so I know it inside and out. If you never draw into a bridge or chalice after mulling to 4 then there's nothing this deck can do for you. Just the way she goes unfortunately. Hopefully next week I will have better luck but more than half of my matches I flooded out and I'm playing with 21 lands.
Madcap moon - Definitely the deck list I was playing against last night but he had 4 remand because I got hit with three in a row along with spell pierce and mana leak haha. I didn't see any snapcaster mage's or cryptic command but he hand me under his thumb for most of the match so he could have been sandbagging them.
UW Control - This list was using as foretold so they're dropping crazy card draw for free with Ancestral Vision and serum visions every turn (yours and theirs) as well as the previous suite of counterspells and bounce spells. Celestial Colonnade is a beast that just eats our planeswalkers in 1 hit. Unfortunately the bridge is irrelevant because it can easily be bounced or countered or snapcaster will pick up a relevant spell up that they've already used. We can't play around their counters because they're drawing substantially more cards than us right out of the gate and any respecting UW player will always leave up 2 mana even if they have nothing. I find the only way to combat them is to just run into their spells and hope that we have more gas than them.
I feel like the turn 1 blood moon is the best way to stop them from establishing their plan and allowing us enough time to get our pieces into place. I also feel that Shattering spree has no place here as they don't use any artifacts in their main deck.
**Edit** - Big thanks to Caligula as well for his insight. All of this is helping me be a better warden for our pyro prison.
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
Facing Counterspell/Control Decks
You nailed it Vegitas: "just run into their spells and hope we have more gas than them". Some discussion on this topic: card economy. First, your mulliganning has got to be frustrating, and although I readily do it once (7 cards is about the same as 6 with a scry), I rarely drop below 6 cards, because land distribution becomes dicey. So, try to keep card counts high, and trust in the draws and dig. You mentioned merfolk: Bridge - sure, but sweepers will reset the game. And, what's your removal: Magma Jet, Sweltering Suns or my combo card: Arc Trail.
Threat density. It's all about presenting 'must counterspell' cards to the opponent where finally they run out of gas. Honestly, if we don't get out ahead of them with a chalice or moon to slow their development, then they can start to pick off our principal threats with draw-go shenanigans. Again and again, I say it: Tormenting Voice. It's a win-win if it's countered or it isn't.
Facing R/W Sun and Moon decks
As for the commentary on R/W sun and moon decks with Gideon Jura emblems and pillow fort archetypes. I get the allure. They can answer everything, but what are they offering - Exclusive Planeswalker wins? Diplomatically speaking...it's a shield deck that turtles up even harder in games 2 and 3 behind some terrific white enchantments. Hey, it's had some strong showings, and I respect the hell out of the archetype. But, it's a readily identifiable, linear formula which can be sideboarded against. Games 2/3 become wars of answer cards - shield size. I prefer to sharpen the spear.
I was talking to an experienced Sun and Moon player at a 1k while we were watching another Sun and Moon player slowly lose ground to an eldrazi deck. He talked about cast out and banishing light and journey to nowhere -- He mixes the types, so he's not vulnerable to maelstrom pulse. 1-for-1 answer cards is not how you win a tournament, mountainfolk. What deck is the undisputed king of 1-for-1 answer cards? Jund. Where is Jund today? It has slipped from Tier 1 down to Tier 2 down to Developing Competitive.
Obviously, there is waaaay more to their deck than 1-for-1 responses, and I don't want to underestimate the power of their planeswalkers. Just saying, that folks know how to react in games 2/3. But, folks struggle with how to best answer our deck after sideboarding. They aren't naturally prepared and they can't do things like 'take out all the creature kill'.
Speaking to Caligula's thoughts on Defense Grid, and this predilection to turtle up. Fight it. Rage...Rage against it.
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Pyroclasm
1 Abrade
2 Tormenting Voice
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mutavault
19 Mountain
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Pyroclasm
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Shattering Spree
Just a few notes:
- decided to take Rays' advice on the Tormenting Voices
- the removal suite is kind of random, so many pros and cons on everything. want to try out Abrade as it does seem pretty good, and I like the idea of having an out in the Madcap Empyrion situation. plus it smashes Aether Vial. Pyroclasm and Sweltering Suns are both solid in different ways.
- Ratchet Bomb could be something else I guess, maybe another aggressive creature, as I feel a little light on those. but it's nice to have a silver bullet, just sometimes it shows up at the wrong time.
- I'm at 22 lands, the 21-land version was running a little lean for me, but I could be talked into it again
- thinking of sticking a Trinisphere on the sideboard, as it shuts down Storm and As Foretold to some degree, and isn't bad against Affinity either if you get it early enough
Any advice welcome, thank you!
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
While we're talking about our "bad" matchups..I have a real concern; Solemnity.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-solemnity-modern
Against this deck, we're the ones 'against the odds'.
Our problems here are two-fold; first of all, this deck looks great. I would go as far as saying it's possibly better than Abzan, even without CoCo, because the double enchantment lock is incredibly tough to deal with for most decks. But we don't care about most decks, we only care about Pyro Prison. So, since I he combo also shuts off Ratchet Bomb.. we have no outs. Zero.
The second concern I have with this combo is, both pieces only cost 1w, so almost anything splashing white could presumably slot it in. Even if the above deck doesn't take off, but other decks run this combo to a point where a considerable chunk of the meta is running it.. we could be in a far less desirable spot.
Bouncing off of this, and this is all speculation under the assumption that this two card combo becomes a thing; we may need to splash a small amount of white or green so that we finally have enchantment removal. I have felt for quite some time that our complete lack of enchantment removal has been our greatest weakness.
**EDIT** - Crazy thought. Splashing white so that we may incorporate this into our own prison and also have access to enchantment removal in the sideboard.
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade