I've been so busy since the open, I haven't even gotten a single match on mtgo since then. I was thinking about a third walking ballista, but honestly, as much as pia isn't like...wow, this is good....I'm really struggling to find a replacement. It's 4 power for 4 mana, gets under bridge, creates three bodies, and can ping stuff. Theres a lot going on there to replace. Problem is they are too slow when I want to go aggro and doesn't control enough when I need the control suite. Problem with a third ballista is the same. pia and Kiran presents a faster clock, maybe we can petition wizards to let us play 5 rabblemasters. There's a thought.
I really like 2 Koth in the deck, as he is a great clock if allowed unchecked behind a fast Moon. I’ve always been happy to see on early and had upped to 2 in the deck i played last summer. A third Ballista is an option for sure.
Welcome back Mike! I was just wondering where you've been lately. I agree on the second Koth for sure, he's great when we need to be aggressive, and can end a game quickly from behind a bridge, along with being the perfect answer to things like Worship and a Gideon emblem. On the flip side, P&K provide the perfect protection for him, since ideally we want to be able to swing with our mountain, so I'm on the fence about the swap.
I'm also shaky on Ballista, again. It's a great card late in the game behind a Bridge, but early on it feels a bit anemic, and I never want to start with one in my hand.. It's a fine 2-of, but I wouldn't go higher. I may drop to a singleton in favor of a second Koth.
I've won many a games by casting a ballista with just one counter to tag a steel overseer, bird, or Bob. Don't underestimate just using it as a 2 mana removal spell
Thanks Caligula, i had to brush the dust off the card case after no playing with physical cards in about 3 months. Wishing i had the deck online so i could get games in when i had time in the evenings...may do that as i get closer to the 1/6 event. If any Pyro Prison players are heading to Columbus in Jan, please let me know and we can compare notes and such,
I’ll likly stick with 2x Koth at this point unless something better is uncovered for the lone Pia in the deck.
On mobile so I can’t get too detailed. I used Russ’ exact list except a relic in place of a shatter. I don’t remember what I sided out but I remember what I put in.
Round 1: Vizier Elves
Game 1, I get a quick blood moon off a guide and ritual, then slowly build a Chandra. Hit a bridge and he scoops.
+2 anger, +2 spyglass, +2 cage
Game 2, I anger twice and slagstorm, have a blood moon out. He decides that he won’t scoop and play it out. He finds removal and ezuri destroys me.
Game 3, I get an early moon and chalice on 1, but never find the bridge.
0-1
Round 2: 5 color humans
Game 1, I Start with a chalice on 1 and he leads on cavern of souls on human. A slagstorm slows him down, but he quickly wins.
+2 anger, +2 eidolon, , +1 torpor orb
Game 2, I drop a blood moon and chalice and he scoops after I abrade his vial and put chalice on 1.
Game 3, I land a blood moon and bridge early but he has out 2 nobles to get under and pressures my Chandra. I finally hit an eidolon and slowly kill his nobles. Chandra ultimate seals the deal.
1-1
Round 3: GB Tron
Game 1, I land a chalice on 1 then 1 followed by a turn 2 moon, and turn 3 rabble to pressure, he scoops.
+1 hazoret, +1 shattering spree, +2 eidolon
Game 2, I miss on moon and he turn 3 trons.
Game 3, I mull to 6 and drop a turn 2 hazoret, followed by a turn 3 moon, and turn 4 eidolon, he scoops from my clock.
2-1
Round 4: Counters Company
Game 1, I drop a quick blood moon and chalice on 1, but company.
+2 anger, +2 cage, +1 spellskite, +2 spyglass
Game 2, I mull to 6 and land a spyglass naming druid but I see a putrefy. I land a bridge and a spellskite, but he destroys the bridge and uses creature beats. Never see an anger.
2-2
Round 5: Amulet Titan
Game 1, I land a turn 2 blood moon and a turn 3 bridge. Follow that with a Chandra that ultimates and I get the ggs.
+1 shattering spree, +1 torpor orb
Game 2, on the draw i gemstone for the first time today, and land a turn 1 blood moon and he rage scoops.
3-2
Round 6: affinity
Game 1 a bridge and koth ultimate win.
+1 spree, +2 spyglass
Game 2, I miss on bridge and he overruns me.
Game 3, i get a bridge and Chandra out. I am at 3 life with a spellskite out. I go to chalice on 1 with 2 mana left and he spell pierces me. I have to decide on paying or trying to empty my hand for bridge, so I don’t pay, and play my spyglass. He has a wear tear and gal blast. Gg.
3-3
Round 7: UG Merfolk
Game 1 I land a blood moon that hits him (had non basics out) and a bridge. Chandra gets the win.
+1 torpor orb, +1 boil, +2 anger
Game 2, I land a fast bridge and Chandra, boil his islands, but he blows up my bridge. Mutavault saves Chandra and she hits a bridge. I chalice on 1 then 2 quickly and he scoops.
4-3
Round 8: Counters company
Game 1, he gets a quick infinite life while I durdle with a bridge and moon out.
+2 anger, +2 cage, + 1 relic
Game 2, I land a bridge and moon, he combos out with infinite life again and I scoop.
Overall, I didn’t see any decks I wanted to see. Druid related combos are impossible to beat. We need matrix and hope they miss their decays. I was surprised at beating tron with a turn 2 hazoret on a mull to 6. I was expecting more valakut and death shadow.
That's a fair point Russ, Ballista has come in handy a few times as such. Birds and Hierarch HAVE to die, of course, I guess maybe I'm being too greedy with it.. knowing how sick Ballista can get late game, (especially AGAINST me) using it as a 2 mana removal spell, no matter how important the play is at the time, makes it seem like he's not reaching his full potential in our deck, since his primary utility IS a 2 mana removal spell.
With that said, perhaps it's my line of thought that's flawed. As a two drop removal spell, obviously we have plenty of important targets. Instead of thinking of Ballista as a wincon that I occasionally have to pitch to kill a stupid bird, maybe I should think of him as a bird killer that occasionally takes over the game.
Finally found a moment to enter a competitive league on MTGO. Made some changes...took out ONE shattering spree for a damping matrix. took out pia and kiran nalaar for a hammer or bogardan.
Round 1 vs UW Control.
Game one, I'm on the play. Mountain pass. He plays Island, serum visions, pass, I play mountain, guide, ritual, Chandra, tick up, chalice on one. next turn blood moon seals it up.
Game two. Aggro package comes in. Bridge, slag, and abrade out. Eidolins, hazoret, spellskite, torpor orb, spyglasses in. Open with Gemstone Caverns, exiling walking ballista. turn one, magus of the moon, turn two chalice on one. His turn three detention sphere my magus, My tuen three, play the real thing, blood moon. He tries to search to Azcanta, but I play eidolin and that does so much damage it's not even funny. WIN 2-0
Round 2 vs storm.
Game one. I'm on the play, mountain pass, he plays spirebluff canal and passes. I play mountain and ALMOST play a chalice on one, then I'm like, this doesn't need to be played now. Let's wait a tun and see what's up. well, his second turn is a goblin electromancer and I get rewarded for my patience and drop a turn three chalice on two via a ritual.
Game two: Aggro packago comes in. YES, the aggro package. If you give them enough time, they will win. You need pressue and lots of it. Out...2 Magus, Three blood moon (keep one in because there's nothing better in your board), and the 4 bridges. In comes the 4 creautres (hazoret, 3 eidolins), 2 grafdigger's cage, spellskite, and two anger. Game starts with turn one cage, turn two eidolin. eidolin does serious work. by the time I get to turn three, he's lready down to 13 with a goblin and Baral in play to my lone Revel. I attempt to Hammer his face because at 10 life, he's got 4 more spells he can cast, but that gets remanded and he's down to 11. He tries to start attacking, but that's too little to late. He plays a third goblin and passes. This time, hanner is going at the goblin to clear the way, which it does. goblin down, eidolin in. He's down to 7...3 spells left. He tried to gifts ungiven, but cage makes sure nothing crazy happens. Eventually, mutavault gets frisky and he can't play anything else for the rest of the game. WIN 2-0
Round 3 vs Eldrazi and Taxes
Game one. Bridge resolves and he can't get it off the table. Hammer almost goes the distance, but he main decks relic i guess for processors. Doesn't matter, he dies to chandra enblem.
Game two. Control package in, aggro out. Rabblemasters and maguses out. 2 anger, 2 spyglass, 1 torpor orb, 1 spellskite in. Game two, On the draw, I have two lands and a hand of all gas. It's so gas that one of my lands was a gemstone caveerns and I choose NOT to paly it. turn two torpor orb completely shuts down his deck. Turn three moon, turn 4 chandra plus chalice on one. then tuen 6 walking ballista on 4 using chandra mana. WIN 2-0
Round 4 vs. Grixis shadow.
Game one, we lose this game an early thought seize takes a bridge, then he plays an angular on turn two. don't see another bridge.
Game two. Midrange package comes in. Out: 2 Abrade, 2 Slagstorm, one rabblemaster and 2 ballista. In. Hazoret, spellskite, torpor orb, boil, and 3 eidolins. He turn one thought seizes me and decides to take a rabblemaster and leave me with three lands and hazoret. So, two turns later, I draw a ritual and power him out, despite that he cannot attack or block. He fetches for swamp, Island, and then a watery grave. I guess he figures I'm gonna give him red mana. well, nope. I drop bridge and he can't get it offthe table. Hazoret goes to work and we're off to game three. I love it when a deck does half the work for you.
Game three. On the draw, my opponent passes with two lands up, So I cast a ritual and then play a chalice on one to play around stubborn denial. next turn, my opponent fetches up thrid land, 2 watery grave and a steam vents, taps them all to play an angualr. You know what those three land have in common? If you guessed they are all islands, you're right! I untap, play a third land, ritual, boil. BOOM! he plays a basic island and I drop a bridge and the game ends. chandra joins the pary and he scoops. Win 2-1
Round 5 vs goblins.
Game one, he gets an early legion loyalist followed by a turn two goblin piledriver. I have to cringe and play a ritual into hammer to take out the piledriver. He plays two more golbins and I get a slagstorm off the top...thank you deck...I am still sitting at 15 life when I play a bridge with no cards in hand.
Game two. Calling all moons....get outta here. 6 moons and a Koth out. 2 anger, 1 spellskite, 1 torpor orb, 2 eidolin in (just for blocking). I find angers, slags, chandras, bridges, torpor orbs, basically everytihng but a chalice in game two. Win 2-0
So, that was another undefeated competitive league, 5-0 in matched and 10-1 in games. I didn't have a need to side in damping matrix. hammer was really good. It was able to take out a creature in the eldrazi and taxes match. It saved my butt vs goblins, as we all know how outta hand goblin piledriver can get, and it was able to shorten the clock and/or tag a creature vs storm. More testing is necessary, but so far, hammer has been good. I got to recur it a few times vs the eldrazi taxes deck, but then he found a relic and hammertime was over. thanks for reading everybody!
A quick sideboarding note...Eidolin. They come in when you need to be the aggressor and also when you have dead cards and just need to fill a slot, but mostly if one comes in, they all come in. Don't be putting them in vs the creature heavy matches, like counters company or humans. Stick to 100% control in those matches. I see some posts above where people are siding in Eidolin vs humans or not siding in all three vs decks with no creatures like Big tron. Stick to the plan and remember, this deck changes considerably after board. Also, during the extremely aggressive matches, like affinity and goblins, take out Koth. He's too slow and paying 4 mana for a planeswalker that can't kill something is a recipie for disaster. Yes, he ultimates in two turns, but you'll be dead in one if you spend an entire turn to set him up. Koth is great vs decks that cannot pressure him and like to go long, like UW control.
I write about my matches because My computer is old and until I get a new one, I cannot stream this deck. I want everyone to do well with it and cringe when I hear someone went 4-4. Yes, variance is a thing, but I'm hoping that some different decisions could have led to some different outcomes.
I am not sold on replacing a shattering spree for a damping matrix. In an FNM that might work, but in a 15 round event, you are going to see affinity probably more than once and you are going to need all the shattering sprees you can get. I also thought about taking out spyglass for a matrix. both fill similar roles. just that matrix cannot hit lands, enchantments, or planeswalks. Also shuts down your own spellskites and ballistaS, SO I'm not sold on it yet.
Jury is still out on Hammer of Bogardan, yes, it was great in my matches, but pia and kiran would have been better vs the death and taxes match and I didn't face affinity. easy to say something is better than pia and kiran when you don't play vs affinity.
You are taking like you are the best magic player ever... I seriously doubt that. You are getting really lucky, that is it. I have been on this deck on and off for over a year now. There is always a spree of having it all and making the deck look unbeatable. Then it loses to itself more than that.
I mulliganed aggressively for a ramp hand that gets a relevant lock fast every game. Company decks are atrocious matchups to beat because they can search for an answer at instant speed at end of turn and we only have 2 instant speed removals. They have abrupt decay, pridemage, selfless spirit, eternal witness, and the ability to either dome us for infinite and scry any card they want to the top as well as the ability to get under bridge to pressure walkers. I open on a chalice on 1 and the elves player opened on cavern of souls. I drop a blood moon turn 2 on an open board and the company players drop basics.
Absolutely no play I made made me later think taking a different route would change anything in those games. Being on the play only once against affinity is the real factor in my loss. Being on the play game 1 and 3 would have made all the difference. People were ready with artifact hate and people were ready for blood moons. See the top 8.
EFro's article essentially echoed my official primer, and for both SCG and ChannelFireball to make no mention of the proper name of Russ' deck is....well, what are you gonna do? But, to be clear: about a year ago, as the strength and popularity of this archetype grew, I fostered an open discussion about the branding. What should we be called? It was put to a vote on the thread. Originally, I nebulously called the deck RED Prison. Now, that worked in print, but in speech it was too vague. I think it was Caligula who came up with 'Pyro Prison'.
Mountain hugs for the new contributor Moush who mentioned Batterskull. If there was a bigger pound-for-pound house with a huge back porch, but its power waxes and wanes in the shifting tides of the meta. If we were to dip our toes into the pool of 5-CMC and lifegain wasn't paramount, I'd go back to Siege-Gang Commander. It fits in thematically, doesn't conflict with Bridge, and provides a faster clock.
I had some time to go back to Stickballruss' tourney report on post #771. It might be one of the best tournament reports out there. Take a second gander, folks.
Some old souls have returned to the campfire: Skia_Aop and MVilla! Skia spoke to his dissatisfaction with Tormenting Voice. I get it. It's always been a filler card. We similarly toyed with Mishra's Bauble in an attempt to streamline/dig. As I said in the Primer, "an underwhelming starting 7 can be saved by a single Tormenting Voice. Of course, it's not without its faults. So, if the meta shifts from large creature attack (Eldrazi/Death's Shadow/Tarmo) to more of a lingering souls/affinity theme, then consider a pivot." It's a roll of the dice. My June 1K winning deck had (3) Tormenting Voice. Not once did they create an Ensnaring Bridge fiasco, but they did foster wins that may have otherwise not happened.
My current build has exactly (1) Tormenting Voice and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Like a moth to the flame, I know I'm playing with fire: a hellbent draw into this card while facing a 1/1 horde turtled behind a bridge is suicide But, if it's mid-game and you're holding a useless extra land or ritual. And, you ponder, "what is the best top deck draw?" the answer is simple: [i]2 top deck draws[/i]. Tormenting Voice = 2 cards. We have no filter/search/dig, so for now it's still pulling weight in the 60th slot. That said, I totally get where [i]Skia_Aop and Vegitas[/i] are coming from when they say that it has smoked out a loss for them.
Similarly, I am drawn to the potentially self-lethal play of Tezzeret's Gambit, and the knowledge that it will provide losing scenarios. But, will it provide even more winning scenarios? Safe play is not winning play. Decks full of Stream of Life and Fog don't take down tournaments.
Another poster, can't recall who, did bring up Damping Matrix in the past. I've tried it sporadically. If indeed Eldrazi Tron is our worst matchup, and Matrix slaps it silly, then it's back on the table. And, I do think it's got better impact potential than Boil. When you re-introduced it into your sideboard, I asked if a 4th Eidolon of the Great Revel might be better? It can go either way, but how badass is the 2nd game when you flay open an opening hand of Eidolon and Rabbles against Combo/Control --- Especially if they never put you on creature aggro. It is essentially.....channelfireball.
Lastly, it really is an Xmas homecoming to see Michael Villa back on the thread! I won't be joining you in Columbus for the StarCityGames IQ on January 6th, but am anxious to hear about your upcoming success. Quick reminder of your prowess, Tex: you said, "[I] like the addition of Walking Ballista to the deck". My man, you done already played Walking Ballista in your 1st/2nd place split winning Pyro Prison deck at an earlier Columbus StarCityGames IQ back in March.
FLASHBACK to May 24th - As for a recounting of a previous conversation - IM - here is my initial win-over on the inclusion of Tormenting Voice. It's with longtime playtest partner and fellow MTGsalvation poster dcovino.......
dcovino:
You could take pyro prison to an open and probably do very well. three tormenting voice huh??
seems like it would be at odds w needing to turtle up, but given you're bridging more against huge things these days, rather than weenie 1/1 assaults, i can see you being able to sandbag a card in hand and not be totally hellbent.
Raystack:
Regarding Tormenting Voice, there's too much to write to get to how it operates. I do just keep learning about this deck - it's fascinating. Like Scapeshift or Ad Nauseam or Titan Breach or Gifts/Storm, these guys spend a long haul - the life of their game - attempting to reach a single goal. So, it's all-in. Mana acceleration. Dig. Dorks. Artifacts: they win or lose. No walls or counterspells or lifegain.
Raystack:
Similarly, Pyro Prison attempts to reach 2 of about 3 very specific, singular goals as fast as possible. And, I don't need an extra Pia and Kiran Nalaar or a Kargan Dragonlord mucking up the works. So, I'm obviously blasting ahead with acceleration. The trick is to find the right Lock and recover after an acceleration. At 2-cmc, T. Voice can dig and ditch the duplicate lock-piece in hand.
Raystack:
But, the 'next level' reveals that Tormenting Voice and gemstone caverns achieve the same thing at a similar cost.
Like those other decks, I am so focused on my own channel/fireball play that I don't care if I'm losing a resource on having a Tormenting Voice countered [I run 6 Blood Moons for Koth's Sake!]. Obviously, the tossed card is the least needed, and I've at least drawn out a counterspell from the opponent. Nearing hellbent, I might hold an unneeded land and hope for a Tormenting Voice. Truthfully, there aren't that many decks where 1-powered weenies will get me. So, it's all about card consolidation and mini-channel/fireballs for the win.
dcovino:
"I am so focused on my own channel/fireball that I don't care if I'm losing a resource on having a Tormenting Voice countered." This is the absolute key to modern.
You can't afford the mid-rangey flexibility cards in a Pyro Prison - Just like those decks you mentioned, they don't use them either. You need to be focused and execute bc if you don't, the actual midrange decks will tear you apart.
Raystack:
Correct. The other decks need lightning storm or scapeshift and little else.
dcovino:
Say you're ditching a ritual to Tormenting Voice when you have 3 land on board - who cares - and depending on what you face, any one of those lock pieces is nearly game over already.
Raystack:
I need Moon, chalice, bridge. and that's it. Flamewalkers follow. Or, maybe the opponent's deck is creatureless. O.K., let's go Turn 1 goblin rabblemaster and plow Tron right off the f***ing board. It's all about getting over the fear of Tormenting Voice getting either A) countered or B) Hellbent stuck-in-hand.
dcovino:
three T. Voice seems appropriate. as a 1-of you could sandbag some card for 30 turns to use it, and still not draw it! You want to be able to use asap
Raystack:
Either of those cases [ A. or B. ] are O.K. as long as you've put your sights on the right goal that occurred before or after the oh-so-feared event [ A. or B. ]. Neither is all that bad. Card Economy works in very funny ways when you play all-in tactics like Ad Nauseam or Scapshift. You think they give a f*** how many cards are in their hands or were countered before they won??
dcovino:
yep
Raystack:
Yeah, If I Turn 1 chalice and Turn 2 tormenting voice, I'm golden.
If I turn 2-3 a Chandra and then +1 for 2 red mana and then tormenting voice, again, golden.
So much of the deck is duplicate/redundant and the rest is acceleration. You will draw the 'wrong half', so you have to lose ground to gain ground.
I wonder if this is revelatory or just known but not spoken.
dcovino:
nope, the sheer amount of rituals and air to make it work in your early iterations were my primary complaint, so this all makes sense to mitigate it.
Raystack:
Cool! You were very against T. Voice otherwise. Similarly, I was very relieved when one of the posters agreed that he also wanted to go up to 3 Tormenting Voice when I said that 'once you go 1, you almost can't help but see the logic in going 3.' When he agreed, I knew he knew what the s*** was going on. {{that poster was Amok}}
dcovino:
if you dont ritual out some prison piece by t2 then you're way behind - but if you have 12 ritual effects then half your spells do nothing.
Raystack:
The other thing not mentioned is that Tormenting Voice will purposely fail against decks which actually serves to help me. Take blue counterspell decks. Sometimes they see me as 'threat light' - they can pick/choose their counter targets. But, you think they can resist countering a tormenting voice? Nope, and it don't matter to Jesus. When I draw out their counterspell and then drop a Rabble or Moon or Planeswalker after they've exhausted their counterspells, it's on.
>>> End Conversation <<<
Critical Deck Perspective Note regarding Mana Ramp: My deck runs (18) 3-CMC spells and (9) Rituals and (3) Gemstone Caverns. This creates a seeming spare-tire, middle bulge in the mana scheme. You can only cast so many 3-CMC spells, right? Nonetheless, our lack of any 1-cmc spells and lowered counts of 2-cmc is enviable. 3-cmc spells are simply better, pound-for-pound.
That's one more reason why Tormenting Voice works. I can clear out that extra clutter for 2 mana. This frees up more lines of play once I engage the 3-CMC spectrum of spells. Magma Jet helps forecast and manipulate future draws, but it doesn't streamline problematic assemblages of cards in your hand.
Nevertheless, (18) 3-CMC spells...hmmm...is my Jenga tower getting shaky? Alright, take it for what it's worth, Mountainfolk. Some of the talk is loose and not set in stone. Just think how often you'll comment on a line of strategy or card value, and then change your mind the next day. Sufficed to say, I'm in on (3) Tormenting Voice.
Ray, I love it when you post stuff on here. Always a great read. Thank you.
Abzan, I'm just trying to help. I apologize if anything I mentioned feel like an attack. I've gone 19-1 in my last 20 online league matches and did considerably well at the open with this deck. Could it be that I've gotten really lucky? Yeah, could be. In that run online, I played eldrazi Tron exactly zero times and only once in my open top 4 performance. I post here so that others can get a sense of what I'm thinking about when I'm making decisions. I want everyone to do well, otherwise I would have not joined in the discussion.
Anyway, sorry if I didn't come across as genuinely trying to help.
Russ
Thanks Ray...glad to be back and talking about the deck...upping to multiple Balista seems solid to me and glad others have found the same. That day seems like so long ago in the evolution of the deck and the Modern metagame....wow.
And so add some spice to the deck, Santa just dropped off a package from SCG contains some beautiful Brand new Un-mountains that are getting sleeved up for the deck after i hit send on this post.
Can’t wait to get the cards flying again.
Hello everyone my friends and i are looking at this deck to potentially take to the team modern GP in Sydney. i have a couple of questions regarding i guess flex slots ?
My friends and i have been playing the deck with snow lands and scrying sheets as a way to dig without altering the deck to much, through testing so far i have found mutavault to be less impressive, once the lock is established and you are looking for threats scrying during your opponents end step to rip a mountain off the top has been a great way to get rid of that dead draw, ive also main boarded hazoret into the build giving a consistent discard outlet and damage dealer.
wondering if i could get some more information about the use of mutavault ?
I started playing this deck with snow lands and they had one major effect...telling my opponent blood moon is coming. See, with ponza, they have to set up blood moon and give the opponent a window to find a basic. With our deck, we drop moon so fast, they don't have time to adjust. Turn one snow mountain....blood moon is coming. Turn one regular mountain, could be burn, jeskai, scapeshift, jund, or anything else. In testing with your friends, they know what you're playing. At a grand Prix, nobody knows what's up until it's too late.
Mutavault has many uses,. The first is what I mentioned above. Turn one mutavault means your playing Merfolk. No risk in searching for fetches...ha ha... Second use for mutavault is with goblin rabblemaster. A rabblemaster off an mutavault is a three turn clock. Rabble math without mutavault is 1-6-8-dead. With mutavault, it's 1-9-dead. Also, it's another attacker when you don't find a blood moon and a surprise blocker that people usually forget about when they kill a moon or Magus.
Mutavault is not the best card in the deck, not at all,. It the ability to kill a turn faster while at the same time disgeising what your doing has been huge. When you play in a large event, take note how many people fetch a shock lands game one when your first turn is mutavault, pass.
I'm trying to improve my deck assessment and role evaluation game so I would love to hear some input on the topic. I think these two aspects are key to piloting Pyro-Prison. I believe Russ for instance, is currently doing so well, not necessarily because he's choosing the correct lines of play (obviously that's important), but has more to do with his understanding of different roles that we can take and knowing the capabilities of other decks. He can then sb accordingly and as we all know, this deck completely changes when side boarding.
So I think that it's important to gain a clear understanding of what Pyro-Prison is, along with fully knowing what the role of other decks are. In theory, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Pyro-Prison is, at its core, a midrange deck as it shifts towards control or aggro based on the match up. Or it at least has elements of a midrange deck. Pyro-prison isn't a deck that you can just pick up and start 5-0ing leagues. Anyone can pick the deck up and play out their hand on curve, but this is simply not enough. We have elements of aggro and control, but are not dedicated to either. A lot of this might seem obvious and pointless to mention, but I think it really is paramount that it be clear what we are. I think that if we ask ourselves the right questions, our success rate will improve substantially. And with that, I think our first question should be Realizing that I cannot beat X deck at its own game, what role should I be taking here? This obviously doesn't pertain to insta scoop lock plays, but actual games of magic where wins can still be salvaged for opponents. But this isn't always so clear cut as some decks are more difficult to assess than others. Affinity? Easy, they are hyper aggro with tons of 0-1 drops. But even against affinity there are unique questions. For instance, when you need to bring the pain, Eidolons are often brought in. Typically you wouldn't want aggro against affinity though, but an Eidolon on board with 100% of affinity cards triggering Eidolon can be a strong thing. But is it worth it? Do they flood the board before that would even matter? For these unique cases, I think it's good to use sb guides that have been presented. But the purpose of my post is to find out what others think are the crucial questions that must be asked and answered in order to help master the deck. (Side question, how do you guys handle chalice and Eidolon together?) They seem like they don't play well together as chalice is turning off a 4th of eidolon's triggers (cmc 0-3)
Some decks, however, are not so clear cut. For instance, other midrange decks. What role do we take there? It really seems to come down to knowing the other decks in the meta. I'm ready to start keeping notes on just how you should handle any given deck. Not so much a card for card list of what should be brought in and out, but notes on the roles and overall assessment of other decks relative to Pyro-Prison. Because if you know how to handle a deck, you will instinctively know what to bring in and what to focus on, instead of needing to memorize or look at a sb guide that changes as Pyro-Prison and the meta evolve.
I like where your head it at and you are 100% correct. My friends who watched me in the Open told me about the mistakes i made in EVERY MATCH, however, I was flawless in the big picture view of the deck, and that's what led me to victory. This is why I am so big on making sure you sideboard and choose your role accordingly, because getting the big picture right will allow you to make a few mistakes while playing and still end up victorious.
for example, you brought up affinity. that is a match where you are the control player, 100%. Eidolins DO NOT come in vs them. Eidolin is an aggro player and serves no purpose in the affinity match. Also, knowing how affinity beats you is huge. I recall my match I played vs alex Bertoncini where I was on the draw and had two chalices in my opening hand. everyone watching said they would have put a chalice on zero and one the first chance they got, but in playing the match a lot online, you really need chalice on one and two. One stops drum, pest, and blast, and chalice on two stops ancient grudge. Don't care about anything else except for ancient grudge. Take that out and they have no outs. I held that second chalice for around 6 turns before I got to 4 mana to play it. That's thinking big picture and using your knowledge of the format to win. there was another affinity match where I had a chalice on one and later in the game, drew a spyglass. I played it naming Aether Grid because that was one of the only ways they were going to beat me. Keep in mind, this was game three and I had yet to see a grid in this game nor the prior one. He scooped immediately because that was his only out (guess he didn't have ancient grudge in his board).
For midrange, I usually take out the abrades and slagstorms. Their creatures, like tarmgoyf and tasigur, are usually too big for either. Spellskite ALWAYS comes in vs the midrange decks and I'm surprised how often a rabblemaster gets the job done. If you're in a position game one to win or lose and you don't have to show them rabblemaster or magus, then don't. I won a game vs burn because I won with planeswalkers only and he assumed that I was playing some crazy creatureless build of prison. Game two, he sides out all his removal, like searing blaze, and then rabblemaster just takes over. the other midrange decks are the same way. Don't reveal creatures unless you have to game one, because as they are taking out creature removal, you'll just destroy them with rabblemaster. Aside from spellskite, vs midrange, I usually side in all three eidolins, hazoret, definitely hazoret, and maybe a torpor orb depending on what type of midrange you are looking at. you can afford to also cut a magus if you need to.
So, yes, knowledge of the format is a must and you need to get your reps in. Play on MTGO and get real familiar with how your opponent kills you. Think big picture and not in details. UW control doesn't win with planeswalkers or collonade. They win by getting to the late game and doing much more powerful stuff than you can. Kill them early and don't let them get there. Affinity wins not with little creatures or 8/1 flying lifelink dudes, but by ending the game by turn 4 before you can do anything. Gotta extend those games longer and take away their power.
Let me know if there's anything I didn't cover or I need to elaborate on.
In beginning to document my notes, I think I will start a little series like "Let's beat X!", if people are interested. This kind of info definitely helps me if others would like a compiled list. So far I have:
Affinity: Dedicated aggro. They do it better, period. We must forget our aggro and control them.
Affinity's goal: Win quickly. Artifact based.
Pyro's goal: The opposite. Stall the game. Don't try to win. Try to not lose. Once we are in control, we can win at our own pace.
*Review what helps this game plan. Does rabblemaster help us stall? No. Koth? Eidolon? No.
How about Anger of the gods? Shattering Spree? Yes! Whatever interrupts them will gain us turns.
Once controlled, we simply win with one of our slower win cons.
Does blood moon stall enough? My vote would be no as they don't need specific colors aside from maybe red for blast.
For anyone interested or that wants to chime in, I will be creating a list to hit most of the meta.
So next up, I would like to hear others thoughts on:
Let's beat Merfolk!
Merfolk: Aggro, vial, tempo. U or UG.
Merfolk's goal: Pump up army with lords to win quickly. Disruption through bouncing creatures. Slight land disruption.
Pyro's goal: Stall. Merfolk is very susceptible to bridge. Chalice on 2 hits their only outs (Echoing Truth/Hurkyl's). Render their creature bounce spells ineffectual by removing our aggro plan.
*How effective is blood moon? It hits UG Merfolk quite hard. Mutavault is also hit in mono U. Are moons worth the slot? Shattering Spree worth bringing in just for vials?
As you can see, I know the general ideas behind decks but there are nuances that should be considered when deciding how to handle them. Any input would be great as i'd like to make this as helpful as possible, even if it ends up being just for myself.
Now we're just taking this to the next level and I love it! Lets add a line to your chart for specifics. We can start with affinity. High level, you're spot on. After that, you need to get into the nitty gritty. Specifically now, how does affinity win? By using two black mana to instant equip cranial plating, by going all in on a ravager, and by attacking with 0 power creatures. I usually keep in three blood moons to turn off their man-lands and access to double black. chalice on one also stops drum, halting their access to double black. Post board, gotta watch out for ancient grudge and Ghirapur Aether Grid. both are DEVASTATING and usually win the game on the spot, so you gotta play either assuming that your bridge will get blown up at any time or assuming that a grid will come down and make playing the long game a non-starter.
Merfolk is one of our easier matchups. Game one, if you resolve a bridge, it's over. their lords actively work against them and there's no outs. UG merfolk DOES NOT run Hurkyl's Recall. Chalice on one always first. If you have one chalice, it's on one. Stops nature's claim and ceremounious refection. Blood moon also shuts down their ability to nature's claim because they run zero forests. Actually, you'd be surprised how often a moon just shuts them down completely. like affinity, goal is staying alive. This means magus and rabble out and angers, spyglass, BOIL (hell yeah) and maybe a torpor orb in. Walking Ballista behind a bridge should be enough to get the job done here. Koth can stay since you lose this match if bridge doesn't show up. Yeah, you can kill some stuff with abrade and anger, but at the end of the day, if you don't have a bridge, you will lose.
I'm also shaky on Ballista, again. It's a great card late in the game behind a Bridge, but early on it feels a bit anemic, and I never want to start with one in my hand.. It's a fine 2-of, but I wouldn't go higher. I may drop to a singleton in favor of a second Koth.
I’ll likly stick with 2x Koth at this point unless something better is uncovered for the lone Pia in the deck.
Round 1: Vizier Elves
Game 1, I get a quick blood moon off a guide and ritual, then slowly build a Chandra. Hit a bridge and he scoops.
+2 anger, +2 spyglass, +2 cage
Game 2, I anger twice and slagstorm, have a blood moon out. He decides that he won’t scoop and play it out. He finds removal and ezuri destroys me.
Game 3, I get an early moon and chalice on 1, but never find the bridge.
0-1
Round 2: 5 color humans
Game 1, I Start with a chalice on 1 and he leads on cavern of souls on human. A slagstorm slows him down, but he quickly wins.
+2 anger, +2 eidolon, , +1 torpor orb
Game 2, I drop a blood moon and chalice and he scoops after I abrade his vial and put chalice on 1.
Game 3, I land a blood moon and bridge early but he has out 2 nobles to get under and pressures my Chandra. I finally hit an eidolon and slowly kill his nobles. Chandra ultimate seals the deal.
1-1
Round 3: GB Tron
Game 1, I land a chalice on 1 then 1 followed by a turn 2 moon, and turn 3 rabble to pressure, he scoops.
+1 hazoret, +1 shattering spree, +2 eidolon
Game 2, I miss on moon and he turn 3 trons.
Game 3, I mull to 6 and drop a turn 2 hazoret, followed by a turn 3 moon, and turn 4 eidolon, he scoops from my clock.
2-1
Round 4: Counters Company
Game 1, I drop a quick blood moon and chalice on 1, but company.
+2 anger, +2 cage, +1 spellskite, +2 spyglass
Game 2, I mull to 6 and land a spyglass naming druid but I see a putrefy. I land a bridge and a spellskite, but he destroys the bridge and uses creature beats. Never see an anger.
2-2
Round 5: Amulet Titan
Game 1, I land a turn 2 blood moon and a turn 3 bridge. Follow that with a Chandra that ultimates and I get the ggs.
+1 shattering spree, +1 torpor orb
Game 2, on the draw i gemstone for the first time today, and land a turn 1 blood moon and he rage scoops.
3-2
Round 6: affinity
Game 1 a bridge and koth ultimate win.
+1 spree, +2 spyglass
Game 2, I miss on bridge and he overruns me.
Game 3, i get a bridge and Chandra out. I am at 3 life with a spellskite out. I go to chalice on 1 with 2 mana left and he spell pierces me. I have to decide on paying or trying to empty my hand for bridge, so I don’t pay, and play my spyglass. He has a wear tear and gal blast. Gg.
3-3
Round 7: UG Merfolk
Game 1 I land a blood moon that hits him (had non basics out) and a bridge. Chandra gets the win.
+1 torpor orb, +1 boil, +2 anger
Game 2, I land a fast bridge and Chandra, boil his islands, but he blows up my bridge. Mutavault saves Chandra and she hits a bridge. I chalice on 1 then 2 quickly and he scoops.
4-3
Round 8: Counters company
Game 1, he gets a quick infinite life while I durdle with a bridge and moon out.
+2 anger, +2 cage, + 1 relic
Game 2, I land a bridge and moon, he combos out with infinite life again and I scoop.
Overall, I didn’t see any decks I wanted to see. Druid related combos are impossible to beat. We need matrix and hope they miss their decays. I was surprised at beating tron with a turn 2 hazoret on a mull to 6. I was expecting more valakut and death shadow.
With that said, perhaps it's my line of thought that's flawed. As a two drop removal spell, obviously we have plenty of important targets. Instead of thinking of Ballista as a wincon that I occasionally have to pitch to kill a stupid bird, maybe I should think of him as a bird killer that occasionally takes over the game.
Round 1 vs UW Control.
Game one, I'm on the play. Mountain pass. He plays Island, serum visions, pass, I play mountain, guide, ritual, Chandra, tick up, chalice on one. next turn blood moon seals it up.
Game two. Aggro package comes in. Bridge, slag, and abrade out. Eidolins, hazoret, spellskite, torpor orb, spyglasses in. Open with Gemstone Caverns, exiling walking ballista. turn one, magus of the moon, turn two chalice on one. His turn three detention sphere my magus, My tuen three, play the real thing, blood moon. He tries to search to Azcanta, but I play eidolin and that does so much damage it's not even funny. WIN 2-0
Round 2 vs storm.
Game one. I'm on the play, mountain pass, he plays spirebluff canal and passes. I play mountain and ALMOST play a chalice on one, then I'm like, this doesn't need to be played now. Let's wait a tun and see what's up. well, his second turn is a goblin electromancer and I get rewarded for my patience and drop a turn three chalice on two via a ritual.
Game two: Aggro packago comes in. YES, the aggro package. If you give them enough time, they will win. You need pressue and lots of it. Out...2 Magus, Three blood moon (keep one in because there's nothing better in your board), and the 4 bridges. In comes the 4 creautres (hazoret, 3 eidolins), 2 grafdigger's cage, spellskite, and two anger. Game starts with turn one cage, turn two eidolin. eidolin does serious work. by the time I get to turn three, he's lready down to 13 with a goblin and Baral in play to my lone Revel. I attempt to Hammer his face because at 10 life, he's got 4 more spells he can cast, but that gets remanded and he's down to 11. He tries to start attacking, but that's too little to late. He plays a third goblin and passes. This time, hanner is going at the goblin to clear the way, which it does. goblin down, eidolin in. He's down to 7...3 spells left. He tried to gifts ungiven, but cage makes sure nothing crazy happens. Eventually, mutavault gets frisky and he can't play anything else for the rest of the game. WIN 2-0
Round 3 vs Eldrazi and Taxes
Game one. Bridge resolves and he can't get it off the table. Hammer almost goes the distance, but he main decks relic i guess for processors. Doesn't matter, he dies to chandra enblem.
Game two. Control package in, aggro out. Rabblemasters and maguses out. 2 anger, 2 spyglass, 1 torpor orb, 1 spellskite in. Game two, On the draw, I have two lands and a hand of all gas. It's so gas that one of my lands was a gemstone caveerns and I choose NOT to paly it. turn two torpor orb completely shuts down his deck. Turn three moon, turn 4 chandra plus chalice on one. then tuen 6 walking ballista on 4 using chandra mana. WIN 2-0
Round 4 vs. Grixis shadow.
Game one, we lose this game an early thought seize takes a bridge, then he plays an angular on turn two. don't see another bridge.
Game two. Midrange package comes in. Out: 2 Abrade, 2 Slagstorm, one rabblemaster and 2 ballista. In. Hazoret, spellskite, torpor orb, boil, and 3 eidolins. He turn one thought seizes me and decides to take a rabblemaster and leave me with three lands and hazoret. So, two turns later, I draw a ritual and power him out, despite that he cannot attack or block. He fetches for swamp, Island, and then a watery grave. I guess he figures I'm gonna give him red mana. well, nope. I drop bridge and he can't get it offthe table. Hazoret goes to work and we're off to game three. I love it when a deck does half the work for you.
Game three. On the draw, my opponent passes with two lands up, So I cast a ritual and then play a chalice on one to play around stubborn denial. next turn, my opponent fetches up thrid land, 2 watery grave and a steam vents, taps them all to play an angualr. You know what those three land have in common? If you guessed they are all islands, you're right! I untap, play a third land, ritual, boil. BOOM! he plays a basic island and I drop a bridge and the game ends. chandra joins the pary and he scoops. Win 2-1
Round 5 vs goblins.
Game one, he gets an early legion loyalist followed by a turn two goblin piledriver. I have to cringe and play a ritual into hammer to take out the piledriver. He plays two more golbins and I get a slagstorm off the top...thank you deck...I am still sitting at 15 life when I play a bridge with no cards in hand.
Game two. Calling all moons....get outta here. 6 moons and a Koth out. 2 anger, 1 spellskite, 1 torpor orb, 2 eidolin in (just for blocking). I find angers, slags, chandras, bridges, torpor orbs, basically everytihng but a chalice in game two. Win 2-0
So, that was another undefeated competitive league, 5-0 in matched and 10-1 in games. I didn't have a need to side in damping matrix. hammer was really good. It was able to take out a creature in the eldrazi and taxes match. It saved my butt vs goblins, as we all know how outta hand goblin piledriver can get, and it was able to shorten the clock and/or tag a creature vs storm. More testing is necessary, but so far, hammer has been good. I got to recur it a few times vs the eldrazi taxes deck, but then he found a relic and hammertime was over. thanks for reading everybody!
I write about my matches because My computer is old and until I get a new one, I cannot stream this deck. I want everyone to do well with it and cringe when I hear someone went 4-4. Yes, variance is a thing, but I'm hoping that some different decisions could have led to some different outcomes.
I am not sold on replacing a shattering spree for a damping matrix. In an FNM that might work, but in a 15 round event, you are going to see affinity probably more than once and you are going to need all the shattering sprees you can get. I also thought about taking out spyglass for a matrix. both fill similar roles. just that matrix cannot hit lands, enchantments, or planeswalks. Also shuts down your own spellskites and ballistaS, SO I'm not sold on it yet.
Jury is still out on Hammer of Bogardan, yes, it was great in my matches, but pia and kiran would have been better vs the death and taxes match and I didn't face affinity. easy to say something is better than pia and kiran when you don't play vs affinity.
I mulliganed aggressively for a ramp hand that gets a relevant lock fast every game. Company decks are atrocious matchups to beat because they can search for an answer at instant speed at end of turn and we only have 2 instant speed removals. They have abrupt decay, pridemage, selfless spirit, eternal witness, and the ability to either dome us for infinite and scry any card they want to the top as well as the ability to get under bridge to pressure walkers. I open on a chalice on 1 and the elves player opened on cavern of souls. I drop a blood moon turn 2 on an open board and the company players drop basics.
Absolutely no play I made made me later think taking a different route would change anything in those games. Being on the play only once against affinity is the real factor in my loss. Being on the play game 1 and 3 would have made all the difference. People were ready with artifact hate and people were ready for blood moons. See the top 8.
Thanks to the folks who chirped up (lindonmichael & fluffywolf) on the message boards of channelfireball.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-red-prison-modern/
EFro's article essentially echoed my official primer, and for both SCG and ChannelFireball to make no mention of the proper name of Russ' deck is....well, what are you gonna do? But, to be clear: about a year ago, as the strength and popularity of this archetype grew, I fostered an open discussion about the branding. What should we be called? It was put to a vote on the thread. Originally, I nebulously called the deck RED Prison. Now, that worked in print, but in speech it was too vague. I think it was Caligula who came up with 'Pyro Prison'.
Mountain hugs for the new contributor Moush who mentioned Batterskull. If there was a bigger pound-for-pound house with a huge back porch, but its power waxes and wanes in the shifting tides of the meta. If we were to dip our toes into the pool of 5-CMC and lifegain wasn't paramount, I'd go back to Siege-Gang Commander. It fits in thematically, doesn't conflict with Bridge, and provides a faster clock.
I had some time to go back to Stickballruss' tourney report on post #771. It might be one of the best tournament reports out there. Take a second gander, folks.
Some old souls have returned to the campfire: Skia_Aop and MVilla! Skia spoke to his dissatisfaction with Tormenting Voice. I get it. It's always been a filler card. We similarly toyed with Mishra's Bauble in an attempt to streamline/dig. As I said in the Primer, "an underwhelming starting 7 can be saved by a single Tormenting Voice. Of course, it's not without its faults. So, if the meta shifts from large creature attack (Eldrazi/Death's Shadow/Tarmo) to more of a lingering souls/affinity theme, then consider a pivot." It's a roll of the dice. My June 1K winning deck had (3) Tormenting Voice. Not once did they create an Ensnaring Bridge fiasco, but they did foster wins that may have otherwise not happened.
My current build has exactly (1) Tormenting Voice and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Like a moth to the flame, I know I'm playing with fire: a hellbent draw into this card while facing a 1/1 horde turtled behind a bridge is suicide But, if it's mid-game and you're holding a useless extra land or ritual. And, you ponder, "what is the best top deck draw?" the answer is simple: [i]2 top deck draws[/i]. Tormenting Voice = 2 cards. We have no filter/search/dig, so for now it's still pulling weight in the 60th slot. That said, I totally get where [i]Skia_Aop and Vegitas[/i] are coming from when they say that it has smoked out a loss for them.
Similarly, I am drawn to the potentially self-lethal play of Tezzeret's Gambit, and the knowledge that it will provide losing scenarios. But, will it provide even more winning scenarios? Safe play is not winning play. Decks full of Stream of Life and Fog don't take down tournaments.
Speaking of Phyrexian Mana, Russ - in the search to replace Pia and Kiran Nalaar - mentioned the though of asking Wizards to allow for a 5th Goblin Rabblemaster. Well, there is always Phyrexian Metamorph
Another poster, can't recall who, did bring up Damping Matrix in the past. I've tried it sporadically. If indeed Eldrazi Tron is our worst matchup, and Matrix slaps it silly, then it's back on the table. And, I do think it's got better impact potential than Boil. When you re-introduced it into your sideboard, I asked if a 4th Eidolon of the Great Revel might be better? It can go either way, but how badass is the 2nd game when you flay open an opening hand of Eidolon and Rabbles against Combo/Control --- Especially if they never put you on creature aggro. It is essentially.....channel fireball.
Lastly, it really is an Xmas homecoming to see Michael Villa back on the thread! I won't be joining you in Columbus for the StarCityGames IQ on January 6th, but am anxious to hear about your upcoming success. Quick reminder of your prowess, Tex: you said, "[I] like the addition of Walking Ballista to the deck". My man, you done already played Walking Ballista in your 1st/2nd place split winning Pyro Prison deck at an earlier Columbus StarCityGames IQ back in March.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112406
FLASHBACK to May 24th - As for a recounting of a previous conversation - IM - here is my initial win-over on the inclusion of Tormenting Voice. It's with longtime playtest partner and fellow MTGsalvation poster dcovino.......
dcovino:
You could take pyro prison to an open and probably do very well. three tormenting voice huh??
seems like it would be at odds w needing to turtle up, but given you're bridging more against huge things these days, rather than weenie 1/1 assaults, i can see you being able to sandbag a card in hand and not be totally hellbent.
Raystack:
Regarding Tormenting Voice, there's too much to write to get to how it operates. I do just keep learning about this deck - it's fascinating. Like Scapeshift or Ad Nauseam or Titan Breach or Gifts/Storm, these guys spend a long haul - the life of their game - attempting to reach a single goal. So, it's all-in. Mana acceleration. Dig. Dorks. Artifacts: they win or lose. No walls or counterspells or lifegain.
Raystack:
Similarly, Pyro Prison attempts to reach 2 of about 3 very specific, singular goals as fast as possible. And, I don't need an extra Pia and Kiran Nalaar or a Kargan Dragonlord mucking up the works. So, I'm obviously blasting ahead with acceleration. The trick is to find the right Lock and recover after an acceleration. At 2-cmc, T. Voice can dig and ditch the duplicate lock-piece in hand.
Raystack:
But, the 'next level' reveals that Tormenting Voice and gemstone caverns achieve the same thing at a similar cost.
Like those other decks, I am so focused on my own channel/fireball play that I don't care if I'm losing a resource on having a Tormenting Voice countered [I run 6 Blood Moons for Koth's Sake!]. Obviously, the tossed card is the least needed, and I've at least drawn out a counterspell from the opponent. Nearing hellbent, I might hold an unneeded land and hope for a Tormenting Voice. Truthfully, there aren't that many decks where 1-powered weenies will get me. So, it's all about card consolidation and mini-channel/fireballs for the win.
dcovino:
"I am so focused on my own channel/fireball that I don't care if I'm losing a resource on having a Tormenting Voice countered." This is the absolute key to modern.
You can't afford the mid-rangey flexibility cards in a Pyro Prison - Just like those decks you mentioned, they don't use them either. You need to be focused and execute bc if you don't, the actual midrange decks will tear you apart.
Raystack:
Correct. The other decks need lightning storm or scapeshift and little else.
dcovino:
Say you're ditching a ritual to Tormenting Voice when you have 3 land on board - who cares - and depending on what you face, any one of those lock pieces is nearly game over already.
Raystack:
I need Moon, chalice, bridge. and that's it. Flamewalkers follow. Or, maybe the opponent's deck is creatureless. O.K., let's go Turn 1 goblin rabblemaster and plow Tron right off the f***ing board. It's all about getting over the fear of Tormenting Voice getting either A) countered or B) Hellbent stuck-in-hand.
dcovino:
three T. Voice seems appropriate. as a 1-of you could sandbag some card for 30 turns to use it, and still not draw it! You want to be able to use asap
Raystack:
Either of those cases [ A. or B. ] are O.K. as long as you've put your sights on the right goal that occurred before or after the oh-so-feared event [ A. or B. ]. Neither is all that bad. Card Economy works in very funny ways when you play all-in tactics like Ad Nauseam or Scapshift. You think they give a f*** how many cards are in their hands or were countered before they won??
dcovino:
yep
Raystack:
Yeah, If I Turn 1 chalice and Turn 2 tormenting voice, I'm golden.
If I turn 2-3 a Chandra and then +1 for 2 red mana and then tormenting voice, again, golden.
So much of the deck is duplicate/redundant and the rest is acceleration. You will draw the 'wrong half', so you have to lose ground to gain ground.
I wonder if this is revelatory or just known but not spoken.
dcovino:
nope, the sheer amount of rituals and air to make it work in your early iterations were my primary complaint, so this all makes sense to mitigate it.
Raystack:
Cool! You were very against T. Voice otherwise. Similarly, I was very relieved when one of the posters agreed that he also wanted to go up to 3 Tormenting Voice when I said that 'once you go 1, you almost can't help but see the logic in going 3.' When he agreed, I knew he knew what the s*** was going on. {{that poster was Amok}}
dcovino:
if you dont ritual out some prison piece by t2 then you're way behind - but if you have 12 ritual effects then half your spells do nothing.
Raystack:
The other thing not mentioned is that Tormenting Voice will purposely fail against decks which actually serves to help me. Take blue counterspell decks. Sometimes they see me as 'threat light' - they can pick/choose their counter targets. But, you think they can resist countering a tormenting voice? Nope, and it don't matter to Jesus. When I draw out their counterspell and then drop a Rabble or Moon or Planeswalker after they've exhausted their counterspells, it's on.
>>> End Conversation <<<
Critical Deck Perspective Note regarding Mana Ramp: My deck runs (18) 3-CMC spells and (9) Rituals and (3) Gemstone Caverns. This creates a seeming spare-tire, middle bulge in the mana scheme. You can only cast so many 3-CMC spells, right? Nonetheless, our lack of any 1-cmc spells and lowered counts of 2-cmc is enviable. 3-cmc spells are simply better, pound-for-pound.
That's one more reason why Tormenting Voice works. I can clear out that extra clutter for 2 mana. This frees up more lines of play once I engage the 3-CMC spectrum of spells. Magma Jet helps forecast and manipulate future draws, but it doesn't streamline problematic assemblages of cards in your hand.
Nevertheless, (18) 3-CMC spells...hmmm...is my Jenga tower getting shaky? Alright, take it for what it's worth, Mountainfolk. Some of the talk is loose and not set in stone. Just think how often you'll comment on a line of strategy or card value, and then change your mind the next day. Sufficed to say, I'm in on (3) Tormenting Voice.
Abzan, I'm just trying to help. I apologize if anything I mentioned feel like an attack. I've gone 19-1 in my last 20 online league matches and did considerably well at the open with this deck. Could it be that I've gotten really lucky? Yeah, could be. In that run online, I played eldrazi Tron exactly zero times and only once in my open top 4 performance. I post here so that others can get a sense of what I'm thinking about when I'm making decisions. I want everyone to do well, otherwise I would have not joined in the discussion.
Anyway, sorry if I didn't come across as genuinely trying to help.
Russ
And so add some spice to the deck, Santa just dropped off a package from SCG contains some beautiful Brand new Un-mountains that are getting sleeved up for the deck after i hit send on this post.
Can’t wait to get the cards flying again.
My friends and i have been playing the deck with snow lands and scrying sheets as a way to dig without altering the deck to much, through testing so far i have found mutavault to be less impressive, once the lock is established and you are looking for threats scrying during your opponents end step to rip a mountain off the top has been a great way to get rid of that dead draw, ive also main boarded hazoret into the build giving a consistent discard outlet and damage dealer.
wondering if i could get some more information about the use of mutavault ?
excited to see this deck develop !
Mutavault has many uses,. The first is what I mentioned above. Turn one mutavault means your playing Merfolk. No risk in searching for fetches...ha ha... Second use for mutavault is with goblin rabblemaster. A rabblemaster off an mutavault is a three turn clock. Rabble math without mutavault is 1-6-8-dead. With mutavault, it's 1-9-dead. Also, it's another attacker when you don't find a blood moon and a surprise blocker that people usually forget about when they kill a moon or Magus.
Mutavault is not the best card in the deck, not at all,. It the ability to kill a turn faster while at the same time disgeising what your doing has been huge. When you play in a large event, take note how many people fetch a shock lands game one when your first turn is mutavault, pass.
So I think that it's important to gain a clear understanding of what Pyro-Prison is, along with fully knowing what the role of other decks are. In theory, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Pyro-Prison is, at its core, a midrange deck as it shifts towards control or aggro based on the match up. Or it at least has elements of a midrange deck. Pyro-prison isn't a deck that you can just pick up and start 5-0ing leagues. Anyone can pick the deck up and play out their hand on curve, but this is simply not enough. We have elements of aggro and control, but are not dedicated to either. A lot of this might seem obvious and pointless to mention, but I think it really is paramount that it be clear what we are. I think that if we ask ourselves the right questions, our success rate will improve substantially. And with that, I think our first question should be Realizing that I cannot beat X deck at its own game, what role should I be taking here? This obviously doesn't pertain to insta scoop lock plays, but actual games of magic where wins can still be salvaged for opponents. But this isn't always so clear cut as some decks are more difficult to assess than others. Affinity? Easy, they are hyper aggro with tons of 0-1 drops. But even against affinity there are unique questions. For instance, when you need to bring the pain, Eidolons are often brought in. Typically you wouldn't want aggro against affinity though, but an Eidolon on board with 100% of affinity cards triggering Eidolon can be a strong thing. But is it worth it? Do they flood the board before that would even matter? For these unique cases, I think it's good to use sb guides that have been presented. But the purpose of my post is to find out what others think are the crucial questions that must be asked and answered in order to help master the deck. (Side question, how do you guys handle chalice and Eidolon together?) They seem like they don't play well together as chalice is turning off a 4th of eidolon's triggers (cmc 0-3)
Some decks, however, are not so clear cut. For instance, other midrange decks. What role do we take there? It really seems to come down to knowing the other decks in the meta. I'm ready to start keeping notes on just how you should handle any given deck. Not so much a card for card list of what should be brought in and out, but notes on the roles and overall assessment of other decks relative to Pyro-Prison. Because if you know how to handle a deck, you will instinctively know what to bring in and what to focus on, instead of needing to memorize or look at a sb guide that changes as Pyro-Prison and the meta evolve.
for example, you brought up affinity. that is a match where you are the control player, 100%. Eidolins DO NOT come in vs them. Eidolin is an aggro player and serves no purpose in the affinity match. Also, knowing how affinity beats you is huge. I recall my match I played vs alex Bertoncini where I was on the draw and had two chalices in my opening hand. everyone watching said they would have put a chalice on zero and one the first chance they got, but in playing the match a lot online, you really need chalice on one and two. One stops drum, pest, and blast, and chalice on two stops ancient grudge. Don't care about anything else except for ancient grudge. Take that out and they have no outs. I held that second chalice for around 6 turns before I got to 4 mana to play it. That's thinking big picture and using your knowledge of the format to win. there was another affinity match where I had a chalice on one and later in the game, drew a spyglass. I played it naming Aether Grid because that was one of the only ways they were going to beat me. Keep in mind, this was game three and I had yet to see a grid in this game nor the prior one. He scooped immediately because that was his only out (guess he didn't have ancient grudge in his board).
For midrange, I usually take out the abrades and slagstorms. Their creatures, like tarmgoyf and tasigur, are usually too big for either. Spellskite ALWAYS comes in vs the midrange decks and I'm surprised how often a rabblemaster gets the job done. If you're in a position game one to win or lose and you don't have to show them rabblemaster or magus, then don't. I won a game vs burn because I won with planeswalkers only and he assumed that I was playing some crazy creatureless build of prison. Game two, he sides out all his removal, like searing blaze, and then rabblemaster just takes over. the other midrange decks are the same way. Don't reveal creatures unless you have to game one, because as they are taking out creature removal, you'll just destroy them with rabblemaster. Aside from spellskite, vs midrange, I usually side in all three eidolins, hazoret, definitely hazoret, and maybe a torpor orb depending on what type of midrange you are looking at. you can afford to also cut a magus if you need to.
So, yes, knowledge of the format is a must and you need to get your reps in. Play on MTGO and get real familiar with how your opponent kills you. Think big picture and not in details. UW control doesn't win with planeswalkers or collonade. They win by getting to the late game and doing much more powerful stuff than you can. Kill them early and don't let them get there. Affinity wins not with little creatures or 8/1 flying lifelink dudes, but by ending the game by turn 4 before you can do anything. Gotta extend those games longer and take away their power.
Let me know if there's anything I didn't cover or I need to elaborate on.
Russ
Affinity: Dedicated aggro. They do it better, period. We must forget our aggro and control them.
Affinity's goal: Win quickly. Artifact based.
Pyro's goal: The opposite. Stall the game. Don't try to win. Try to not lose. Once we are in control, we can win at our own pace.
*Review what helps this game plan. Does rabblemaster help us stall? No. Koth? Eidolon? No.
How about Anger of the gods? Shattering Spree? Yes! Whatever interrupts them will gain us turns.
Once controlled, we simply win with one of our slower win cons.
Does blood moon stall enough? My vote would be no as they don't need specific colors aside from maybe red for blast.
For anyone interested or that wants to chime in, I will be creating a list to hit most of the meta.
So next up, I would like to hear others thoughts on:
Let's beat Merfolk!
Merfolk: Aggro, vial, tempo. U or UG.
Merfolk's goal: Pump up army with lords to win quickly. Disruption through bouncing creatures. Slight land disruption.
Pyro's goal: Stall. Merfolk is very susceptible to bridge. Chalice on 2 hits their only outs (Echoing Truth/Hurkyl's). Render their creature bounce spells ineffectual by removing our aggro plan.
*How effective is blood moon? It hits UG Merfolk quite hard. Mutavault is also hit in mono U. Are moons worth the slot? Shattering Spree worth bringing in just for vials?
As you can see, I know the general ideas behind decks but there are nuances that should be considered when deciding how to handle them. Any input would be great as i'd like to make this as helpful as possible, even if it ends up being just for myself.
Merfolk is one of our easier matchups. Game one, if you resolve a bridge, it's over. their lords actively work against them and there's no outs. UG merfolk DOES NOT run Hurkyl's Recall. Chalice on one always first. If you have one chalice, it's on one. Stops nature's claim and ceremounious refection. Blood moon also shuts down their ability to nature's claim because they run zero forests. Actually, you'd be surprised how often a moon just shuts them down completely. like affinity, goal is staying alive. This means magus and rabble out and angers, spyglass, BOIL (hell yeah) and maybe a torpor orb in. Walking Ballista behind a bridge should be enough to get the job done here. Koth can stay since you lose this match if bridge doesn't show up. Yeah, you can kill some stuff with abrade and anger, but at the end of the day, if you don't have a bridge, you will lose.