I like utility lands a lot in this deck, so Im happy to see people branching out into some options. Tapping for colorless hurts us very very little. Im running Vault myself, but I could see Miren in a B list for the wretched burn matchup.
Has anyone tried a 1-of Miren, The Moaning Well in the side? We have some REAL big butts on our side that could help to stabilize us against a lot of decks that blocking might not necessarily help. Because we effectively run multiple copies of any land because of map it's really like boarding 3 copies in.
I am thinking Map makes a ton of sense as a 1-of to double the odds of finding things like Miren or Vault, as well as to have a slightly easier time getting out from under Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon. I don't often feel I need it for the lands we run in multiples, but it probably couldn't hurt that much, either.
Strangler oftentimes feels like a wasted T2 play because it is so rare to find a target on the field and one in exile that early on. Everything has to go just right for it to work T2. So there is room for Map in our curve, I think. However anything I cut feels like a mistake, too.
Might have to save my pennies for a couple Crucibles.
Forgive me for not reading the thread but i saw in the OP the deck is black and doesn't use leyline of the void? Why? Its a sometimes free black Rest in Peace
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We don't use Leyline because it is only good in the opening hand, which means we need several of them; but multiples in hand are terrible, and it is such a bad topdeck, that it doesn't actually work. The artifacts cantrip, which is very important and actually leads to pretty serious card advantage possibilities.
Rest in Peace is not an option in builds running Lingering Souls. Souls is an unbelievably good card in this build, helping to make the early game stall out, and we cannot afford to nerf it.
Forgive me for not reading the thread but i saw in the OP the deck is black and doesn't use leyline of the void? Why? Its a sometimes free black Rest in Peace
Drawing into it is quite bad and it doesn't draw a card to replace itself.
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Doesn't stop though because Relic of Progenitus burns all graveyards without targeting. Also, path and Sower puts cards in the yard too. I don't think it is a great card against us. I mean if it was BGx would have had to deal with it for a long time with their discard suite, bolt and lily, but they don't see it. I think it would be unexpected to see it brought in from the board against us.
In the games where he dropped Leyline, I didn't have the opportunity to process anything with Strangler or Herder. Ad Naus doesn't run any creatures, so the only way to Strangle would be to Strangle one of my own guys, and he didn't have two cards in exile for Herder. A lot of what they do doesn't put cards into the yard to Relic away, Phyrexian Unlife buys him extra turn(s), and he was cautious not to put two Lotus Bloom in exile at the same time.
But honestly, even worse than the fact that Leyline stops Relic/Claws' first abilities is the fact that it stops Duress, Thoughtseize, and Inquisition of Kozilek. In both games two and three I had multiple of those cards in hand by the time I died, and being able to cast even one would have made a world of difference.
Think I need more? I figured the 2 spellskites plus the discard from inquisition, kolaghans, and lili could slow them down. Admittedly none of my friends use burn so haven't/wont get to playtest it. Could add something like sun droplet to sideboard.
I like 2 Ruin Processor in the 75. I ran one main and one side, but if you're not running Conduit of Ruin a 0/2 split is fine too.
But yeah, we run enough discard that burn isn't an awful matchup.
Forgive me for not reading the thread but i saw in the OP the deck is black and doesn't use leyline of the void? Why? Its a sometimes free black Rest in Peace
I dislike Leyline because you *have* to run 4 of it to make it any good, and it's an awful topdeck that is also anti-linear with any other grave exile cards you might run. With Relic/Claws, I don't mind seeing multiples, as you can easily keep two or even three around to churn through graveyards and keep up permanent processor fuel (plus occasionally be able to counter double Goryo's Vengeance or something). With Relic/Claws/Spellbomb, all three can cantrip when you don't need any more of the effect. Surgical Extraction almost always can do something useful, especially since you can process a target back into their yard if it's been previously exiled. But Leyline of the Void not only blanks Claws and Surgical entirely (while reducing Relic to just cycling), it also blanks additional copies of itself.
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Yup my Day 1 loses were to burn and tron. Day 2 I lost to Todd Stevens on Naya company. I have tested BW BR and BU. I like BW the best because path has some synergy over bolt. I like cards like slaughter games for a lot of match ups out of the red. Anyone on red should look into play vile aggregate to help the curve, it is also an ingester and hits hard if you curve into blight herder.
That's a quote from a reddit user who I assume is Dilks. I checked the SCG pairings lists, and Dilks did play Stevens in Round 14 on Sunday. I would note that Stevens made it to the Semifinals before losing to Jeff Hoogland.
So those loses look to be in line with what most people have said can be the difficult match-ups for the deck.I asked the poster to consider writing up a tournament report, explaining card choices, match-ups, etc. If he follows through, I'll link it back here.
Man, I watched the mono black version that was showed on camera and expect a lot more interest in this deck.
Game 1 showed turn 5 Ulamog, followed by Ulamog next turn.
Game 2 showed him stare down a turn 2 bitter blossom, turn 3 value snap and turn 4 crumble on a temple and just proceeded to out value Grixis with Herders and Sowers.
Commentators were kind of stunned.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
I haven't seen the BW on camera, or mention of it.
Eldrazi Displacer is certainly interesting, not sure where it fits into the deck. If it was just until end of turn that would be nasty to combine with another processor.
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Flicker Scullers with their ETB on the stack to perma-exile something out of their hand and, exile something else under the Sculler, then flicker a Strangler to process the card under the Strangler and kill something?
It still seems like a great get out of jail card for the midgame. Your opponent can't go for an infect/affinity kill easily, flicker their twin target, shut down Emrakul or Wurmcoil, etc.
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Flicker Scullers with their ETB on the stack to perma-exile something out of their hand and, exile something else under the Sculler, then flicker a Strangler to process the card under the Strangler and kill something?
It still seems like a great get out of jail card for the midgame. Your opponent can't go for an infect/affinity kill easily, flicker their twin target, shut down Emrakul or Wurmcoil, etc.
Both good points that I didn't think about. Definitely a nasty defense tool. The Sculler-Strangler combo sounds a bit magical Christmas land, but that could be back breaking.
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Displacer is also better to run out turn 2-3 with no exiled cards than Strangler, both because you won't waste a process trigger and because it's just a better body. More lower CMC Eldrazi is nice just to buy us time until we can drop Sowers and Herders if we have a slower hand. I'm liking the look of this guy a lot.
It still seems like a great get out of jail card for the midgame. Your opponent can't go for an infect/affinity kill easily, flicker their twin target, shut down Emrakul or Wurmcoil, etc.
seems at most sideboard tech for aggro(affinity/infect/reliquary zoo) and some combo(twin/emrakul based decks) but nothing here that spellskite doesn't already do well though. Worth a look but ultimately my guess would be that the lack of "until end of turn" clause makes it undesirable, but a fine budget substitute for spellskite
seems at most sideboard tech for aggro(affinity/infect/reliquary zoo) and some combo(twin/emrakul based decks) but nothing here that spellskite doesn't already do well though. Worth a look but ultimately my guess would be that the lack of "until end of turn" clause makes it undesirable, but a fine budget substitute for spellskite
The only decks that it does *nothing* against are the uninteractive combo decks that don't put creatures on the board - Ad Naus and Storm primarily. Oh, and it's not great versus Bloom Titan, though flickering the titan and giving them more lands is probably preferable to eating 16 to the face.
The fact that it's a proactive creature that also has some crazy combo potential with Sculler makes it very attractive IMO.
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seems at most sideboard tech for aggro(affinity/infect/reliquary zoo) and some combo(twin/emrakul based decks) but nothing here that spellskite doesn't already do well though. Worth a look but ultimately my guess would be that the lack of "until end of turn" clause makes it undesirable, but a fine budget substitute for spellskite
The only decks that it does *nothing* against are the uninteractive combo decks that don't put creatures on the board - Ad Naus and Storm primarily. Oh, and it's not great versus Bloom Titan, though flickering the titan and giving them more lands is probably preferable to eating 16 to the face.
The fact that it's a proactive creature that also has some crazy combo potential with Sculler makes it very attractive IMO.
hmm a point i saw above being brought up is that you can drop this in place of a strangler to save removal.
I wonder what we are going to cut for this, or if we have to re-design our deck list by main decking 4 tidehollow.
Seems logical to test, since the deck is still new and Oath is bringing us SO many new toys.
I haven't seen the BW on camera, or mention of it.
Crazy the 10th place deck wasn't on camera with all the hype surrounding the archetype... oh well, thanks for the link! Do we know where Baugh ended up placement wise?
Both good points that I didn't think about. Definitely a nasty defense tool. The Sculler-Strangler combo sounds a bit magical Christmas land, but that could be back breaking.
It's not even that hard to pull off. Sure, doing the whole sequence in one turn is a bit unlikely but any one of those interactions is pure value, and the sculler ETB/flicker trick is the only one that's time sensitive so you can split it up over a few turns. T3 drop Displacer, T4 play Temple, drop Sculler, flicker Sculler is a totally reasonable line of play, and the end result is 1 card's gone forever, one more under the sculler that can be processed any time as long as it survives, and you still have a 3/3 and a 2/2 sitting around that can repeat the combo later. That's like a free -2 to your opponent.
Both good points that I didn't think about. Definitely a nasty defense tool. The Sculler-Strangler combo sounds a bit magical Christmas land, but that could be back breaking.
It's not even that hard to pull off. Sure, doing the whole sequence in one turn is a bit unlikely but any one of those interactions is pure value, and the sculler ETB/flicker trick is the only one that's time sensitive so you can split it up over a few turns. T3 drop Displacer, T4 play Temple, drop Sculler, flicker Sculler is a totally reasonable line of play, and the end result is 1 card's gone forever, one more under the sculler that can be processed any time as long as it survives, and you still have a 3/3 and a 2/2 sitting around that can repeat the combo later. That's like a free -2 to your opponent.
oh, and it interacts with strangler as well as strangler is etb not on cast.
oh, and it interacts with strangler as well as strangler is etb not on cast.
Hm, I thought all of the processors were ETB. I guess just Herder/Sower/Conduit/Ruin Processor/Ulamog are. Interesting. So Torpor Orb isn't 100% dead against us (though I still laughed when my Affinity opponent cast it, then read Blight Herder, then groaned).
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oh, and it interacts with strangler as well as strangler is etb not on cast.
Hm, I thought all of the processors were ETB. I guess just Herder/Sower/Conduit/Ruin Processor/Ulamog are. Interesting. So Torpor Orb isn't 100% dead against us (though I still laughed when my Affinity opponent cast it, then read Blight Herder, then groaned).
Torpor Orb doesn't stop Blight Herder. And Strangler is ETB. All the others are on cast.
Strangler oftentimes feels like a wasted T2 play because it is so rare to find a target on the field and one in exile that early on. Everything has to go just right for it to work T2. So there is room for Map in our curve, I think. However anything I cut feels like a mistake, too.
Might have to save my pennies for a couple Crucibles.
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Rest in Peace is not an option in builds running Lingering Souls. Souls is an unbelievably good card in this build, helping to make the early game stall out, and we cannot afford to nerf it.
Drawing into it is quite bad and it doesn't draw a card to replace itself.
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In the games where he dropped Leyline, I didn't have the opportunity to process anything with Strangler or Herder. Ad Naus doesn't run any creatures, so the only way to Strangle would be to Strangle one of my own guys, and he didn't have two cards in exile for Herder. A lot of what they do doesn't put cards into the yard to Relic away, Phyrexian Unlife buys him extra turn(s), and he was cautious not to put two Lotus Bloom in exile at the same time.
But honestly, even worse than the fact that Leyline stops Relic/Claws' first abilities is the fact that it stops Duress, Thoughtseize, and Inquisition of Kozilek. In both games two and three I had multiple of those cards in hand by the time I died, and being able to cast even one would have made a world of difference.
I like 2 Ruin Processor in the 75. I ran one main and one side, but if you're not running Conduit of Ruin a 0/2 split is fine too.
But yeah, we run enough discard that burn isn't an awful matchup.
I dislike Leyline because you *have* to run 4 of it to make it any good, and it's an awful topdeck that is also anti-linear with any other grave exile cards you might run. With Relic/Claws, I don't mind seeing multiples, as you can easily keep two or even three around to churn through graveyards and keep up permanent processor fuel (plus occasionally be able to counter double Goryo's Vengeance or something). With Relic/Claws/Spellbomb, all three can cantrip when you don't need any more of the effect. Surgical Extraction almost always can do something useful, especially since you can process a target back into their yard if it's been previously exiled. But Leyline of the Void not only blanks Claws and Surgical entirely (while reducing Relic to just cycling), it also blanks additional copies of itself.
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That's a quote from a reddit user who I assume is Dilks. I checked the SCG pairings lists, and Dilks did play Stevens in Round 14 on Sunday. I would note that Stevens made it to the Semifinals before losing to Jeff Hoogland.
So those loses look to be in line with what most people have said can be the difficult match-ups for the deck.I asked the poster to consider writing up a tournament report, explaining card choices, match-ups, etc. If he follows through, I'll link it back here.
Game 1 showed turn 5 Ulamog, followed by Ulamog next turn.
Game 2 showed him stare down a turn 2 bitter blossom, turn 3 value snap and turn 4 crumble on a temple and just proceeded to out value Grixis with Herders and Sowers.
Commentators were kind of stunned.
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/33284673 at 1:54.
I haven't seen the BW on camera, or mention of it.
Eldrazi Displacer is certainly interesting, not sure where it fits into the deck. If it was just until end of turn that would be nasty to combine with another processor.
Yeah, that sounds like a deck to me.
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Both good points that I didn't think about. Definitely a nasty defense tool. The Sculler-Strangler combo sounds a bit magical Christmas land, but that could be back breaking.
seems at most sideboard tech for aggro(affinity/infect/reliquary zoo) and some combo(twin/emrakul based decks) but nothing here that spellskite doesn't already do well though. Worth a look but ultimately my guess would be that the lack of "until end of turn" clause makes it undesirable, but a fine budget substitute for spellskite
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The only decks that it does *nothing* against are the uninteractive combo decks that don't put creatures on the board - Ad Naus and Storm primarily. Oh, and it's not great versus Bloom Titan, though flickering the titan and giving them more lands is probably preferable to eating 16 to the face.
The fact that it's a proactive creature that also has some crazy combo potential with Sculler makes it very attractive IMO.
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hmm a point i saw above being brought up is that you can drop this in place of a strangler to save removal.
I wonder what we are going to cut for this, or if we have to re-design our deck list by main decking 4 tidehollow.
Seems logical to test, since the deck is still new and Oath is bringing us SO many new toys.
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It's not even that hard to pull off. Sure, doing the whole sequence in one turn is a bit unlikely but any one of those interactions is pure value, and the sculler ETB/flicker trick is the only one that's time sensitive so you can split it up over a few turns. T3 drop Displacer, T4 play Temple, drop Sculler, flicker Sculler is a totally reasonable line of play, and the end result is 1 card's gone forever, one more under the sculler that can be processed any time as long as it survives, and you still have a 3/3 and a 2/2 sitting around that can repeat the combo later. That's like a free -2 to your opponent.
oh, and it interacts with strangler as well as strangler is etb not on cast.
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Hm, I thought all of the processors were ETB. I guess just Herder/Sower/Conduit/Ruin Processor/Ulamog are. Interesting. So Torpor Orb isn't 100% dead against us (though I still laughed when my Affinity opponent cast it, then read Blight Herder, then groaned).
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Torpor Orb doesn't stop Blight Herder. And Strangler is ETB. All the others are on cast.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
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UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW