I think we're currently getting fed a bunch of new Eldrazi that impress us one after the other, but in the end the deck will stabilize itself. The magical valueland cards that will prove too clunky to effectively work against an opponent doing something will be naturally excluded from the deck.
I agree, also, that <> should be considered a color on its own.
Personally the only two cards I can see being most likely to be played in multiple formats are Reality Smasher and Warping Wail (many people have pointed out that it will probably see heavy Vintage/Legacy play in addition to Modern). Wail can be had for $1.50 each right now. The next best cards that I am personally still on the fence about are Sea Gate Wreckage and Thought-Knot Seer. Sea Gate has potential to be played in non-rotating formats but likely as just a one or two-of and as several have mentioned it is very close to Library of Alexandria. Last I checked it was around $2-3 each so it might be just cheap enough to acquire a playset. Seer is really only viable in this archetype and may or may not even make the cut in the end; at $4 or so each that is a little too steep for my liking.
I think we're currently getting fed a bunch of new Eldrazi that impress us one after the other, but in the end the deck will stabilize itself. The magical valueland cards that will prove too clunky to effectively work against an opponent doing something will be naturally excluded from the deck.
I agree, also, that <> should be considered a color on its own.
Bingo. Anyone considering splashing a third color is getting way ahead of themselves. Anyone considering black to not be integral to the deck is getting ahead of themselves.
I actually really like this. Its kind of like a backwards Abbot of Keral Keep. This can even put lands into play. In a deck that wants to ramp, that seems pretty powerful. Its worse with things like Lingering Souls but does get better with things like Ashiok. Unfortunately it doesn't work super well with Eldrazi in general because of the CMC restriction. It does at least draw you a card though but how much better or worse is that than anything else you could be doing?
If you're trying to get to the optimal number of turn 1 plays in modern (~9), in BW eldrazi, it's likely that 3 manlands and 6 discard spells is going to be stronger than treating Relic like a virtual 2-drop that doesn't do much except fuel blight herder and strangler.
So, herder does something very good which is ramp you to Ulamog early. Strangler is basically just a hopefully 2-for-1 vs. aggro decks, but only if you've started with an exiler. I've seen it as consistently the worst card in the deck, as it's so conditional upon both putting cards in the yard and exiling them. This is especially bad vs. Merfolk (as it usually requires t1 discard, t2 relic, t3 strangler).
The problem is that strangler and herder provide a lot of your virtual card advantage in the deck, and are really solid against aggro strategies. You're far more likely to get ground out on cards without them.
One of the things I find really enticing about the UB color set is having two really playable sources of exiles (Delay and Ashiok), and more powerful processors (nullifier especially). It's possible that Thought-Knot Seer is enough to make that archetype viable (since it's a pretty likely turn 2-3 speed bump for aggro, when combined with discard and delay).
This is exactly why I play U/B instead of W/B. I feel like I stumble so often getting enough things to process into exile. Ashiok is SO good for that. People say s/he doesn't do enough/anything when s/he comes into play, and yeah, s/he doesn't actually effect the board but s/he immediately puts cards in exile and requires to be dealt with. That is a kind of impact. I often find that I wish I was running 3 Ashiok's instead of just the two. I really think the deck wants 6 minimum ways to put things in Exile and Path/Delay/Reality Shift don't really count because they don't put enough things in exile at a time to really count. They do help but are not enough on their own. This deck wants 6-8 in some combination of Ashiok, Bojuka Bog, Scrabbling Claws, Pyxis, Relic, or Nihil Spellbomb. I think, of those, Ashiok is the most powerful because it is a/can generate a threat all on its own. The others are just tools to power out your actual threats without themselves, also being a threat. I think U/B has a lot of things going for it that W doesn't and yet also has a comparable advantage to white. I couldnt think of a good way to compare my thoughts so I put together a little chart. It is super simple and I realize there are a lot of other things that go into this such as sideboards etc but it kind of illustrates my thoughts.
Also, regarding mana bases, I've been really tempted to put a single B/x Shock/Tango of every color into the deck to have a way to utilize opponent's fetches we get off of Sower. I happen to have all but the B/G one so its not like I'd have to go obtain the cards but I think it would stress the mana base too much. I generally play the U/B version and I think for any deck rocking a splash its too much but I could see it being feasible in the Mono-B version. Just a thought. I know Urborg takes care of that usually but still.
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I actually really like this. Its kind of like a backwards Abbot of Keral Keep. This can even put lands into play. In a deck that wants to ramp, that seems pretty powerful. Its worse with things like Lingering Souls but does get better with things like Ashiok. Unfortunately it doesn't work super well with Eldrazi in general because of the CMC restriction. It does at least draw you a card though but how much better or worse is that than anything else you could be doing?
If you're trying to get to the optimal number of turn 1 plays in modern (~9), in BW eldrazi, it's likely that 3 manlands and 6 discard spells is going to be stronger than treating Relic like a virtual 2-drop that doesn't do much except fuel blight herder and strangler.
So, herder does something very good which is ramp you to Ulamog early. Strangler is basically just a hopefully 2-for-1 vs. aggro decks, but only if you've started with an exiler. I've seen it as consistently the worst card in the deck, as it's so conditional upon both putting cards in the yard and exiling them. This is especially bad vs. Merfolk (as it usually requires t1 discard, t2 relic, t3 strangler).
The problem is that strangler and herder provide a lot of your virtual card advantage in the deck, and are really solid against aggro strategies. You're far more likely to get ground out on cards without them.
One of the things I find really enticing about the UB color set is having two really playable sources of exiles (Delay and Ashiok), and more powerful processors (nullifier especially). It's possible that Thought-Knot Seer is enough to make that archetype viable (since it's a pretty likely turn 2-3 speed bump for aggro, when combined with discard and delay).
This is exactly why I play U/B instead of W/B. I feel like I stumble so often getting enough things to process into exile. Ashiok is SO good for that. People say s/he doesn't do enough/anything when s/he comes into play, and yeah, s/he doesn't actually effect the board but s/he immediately puts cards in exile and requires to be dealt with. That is a kind of impact. I often find that I wish I was running 3 Ashiok's instead of just the two. I really think the deck wants 6 minimum ways to put things in Exile and Path/Delay/Reality Shift don't really count because they don't put enough things in exile at a time to really count. They do help but are not enough on their own. This deck wants 6-8 in some combination of Ashiok, Bojuka Bog, Scrabbling Claws, Pyxis, Relic, or Nihil Spellbomb. I think, of those, Ashiok is the most powerful because it is a/can generate a threat all on its own. The others are just tools to power out your actual threats without themselves, also being a threat. I think U/B has a lot of things going for it that W doesn't and yet also has a comparable advantage to white. I couldnt think of a good way to compare my thoughts so I put together a little chart. It is super simple and I realize there are a lot of other things that go into this such as sideboards etc but it kind of illustrates my thoughts.
Also, regarding mana bases, I've been really tempted to put a single B/x Shock/Tango of every color into the deck to have a way to utilize opponent's fetches we get off of Sower. I happen to have all but the B/G one so its not like I'd have to go obtain the cards but I think it would stress the mana base too much. I generally play the U/B version and I think for any deck rocking a splash its too much but I could see it being feasible in the Mono-B version. Just a thought. I know Urborg takes care of that usually but still.
2 things -
On Ashiok - Yes, Ashiok represents a later game threat, but Ashiok does not either cantrip OR hose graveyard strategies. In my opinion the exile enabling is the least important part of the exile enablers - we need the card draw and us getting to hose graveyards gives us INCREDIBLE game against many decks that otherwise a deck like this would have trouble against. We ruin all graveyard based combo decks, we ruin all graveyard based value cards, etc. This cannot be overstated, MUCH of the power of the deck comes from the fact that we get to just run these enablers as party of our gameplan. Huge.
On the shocks/tangolands - I've not had a problem with sower lands being useless. Sure, sometimes you'll exile like a Wooded Foothills or something, but the vast majority of the time I've got an Urborg out. Diluting the manabase or making it more painful is taking away one of the other things that makes version of this deck so strong in that our manabase is relatively painless.
im liking eldrazi skyspawner in the UB build. comes out early, soaks up damage, and provides incidental ramp for following turns. It doesnt need to process anything and can block problematic flyers. Makes having a turn 3-4 oblivion sower much more consistent. I am also on the fence whether ashiok can fit in the build. Maybe go down 1 graveyard exile effect and cut a strangler to fit in two ashioks. I do like how it immediately exiles 3, but am wary of how ineffective it is when you are behind.
The only real benefit of white over the other colors is Souls + Sideboard (I'm not sold on path as being essential or the best option, you're ramping them, and we don't care about big creatures because ours are bigger), so basically you're just getting some sideboard options if you use RIP. Is a more painful and awkward manabase worth that?
On Ashiok - Yes, Ashiok represents a later game threat, but Ashiok does not either cantrip OR hose graveyard strategies. In my opinion the exile enabling is the least important part of the exile enablers - we need the card draw and us getting to hose graveyards gives us INCREDIBLE game against many decks that otherwise a deck like this would have trouble against. We ruin all graveyard based combo decks, we ruin all graveyard based value cards, etc. This cannot be overstated, MUCH of the power of the deck comes from the fact that we get to just run these enablers as party of our gameplan. Huge.
On the shocks/tangolands - I've not had a problem with sower lands being useless. Sure, sometimes you'll exile like a Wooded Foothills or something, but the vast majority of the time I've got an Urborg out. Diluting the manabase or making it more painful is taking away one of the other things that makes version of this deck so strong in that our manabase is relatively painless.
Just some thoughts.
I'm by no means suggesting that s/he replace Relic. Relic is a staple as far as I am concerned. I am suggesting that she put in addition. (I assume you probably know this but thought I'd put it out there).
That said, I've seen a lot of non-Mono-B lists running only the 4 Relics and I don't think you can operate all of your processors when you need them on that little exile power. I really think the deck needs at LEAST 6 of some combination of Relic, Claws, Ashiok, Spellbomb, or Bog. I also like that Ashiok is NOT an artifact. I've played against a lot of matches where the opponent got down a turn 2 Stony Silence and shut down my ability to exile anything, outside of Sower, the rest of the game. It just slowed me down way too much. Ashiok gets around that while also requiring rather swift action before s/he starts to really hurt. That is why I advocate Ashiok over the other options. 1 Bog + Map is good but again, it gets shut down by Stony Silence unless you draw it naturally. Even then, do you really want to fetch a Bog off of a Map? That just feels so bad compared to grabbing an Eye, Urborg, Temple, or color fixing.
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On Ashiok - Yes, Ashiok represents a later game threat, but Ashiok does not either cantrip OR hose graveyard strategies. In my opinion the exile enabling is the least important part of the exile enablers - we need the card draw and us getting to hose graveyards gives us INCREDIBLE game against many decks that otherwise a deck like this would have trouble against. We ruin all graveyard based combo decks, we ruin all graveyard based value cards, etc. This cannot be overstated, MUCH of the power of the deck comes from the fact that we get to just run these enablers as party of our gameplan. Huge.
On the shocks/tangolands - I've not had a problem with sower lands being useless. Sure, sometimes you'll exile like a Wooded Foothills or something, but the vast majority of the time I've got an Urborg out. Diluting the manabase or making it more painful is taking away one of the other things that makes version of this deck so strong in that our manabase is relatively painless.
Just some thoughts.
I'm by no means suggesting that s/he replace Relic. Relic is a staple as far as I am concerned. I am suggesting that she put in addition. (I assume you probably know this but thought I'd put it out there).
That said, I've seen a lot of non-Mono-B lists running only the 4 Relics and I don't think you can operate all of your processors when you need them on that little exile power. I really think the deck needs at LEAST 6 of some combination of Relic, Claws, Ashiok, Spellbomb, or Bog. I also like that Ashiok is NOT an artifact. I've played against a lot of matches where the opponent got down a turn 2 Stony Silence and shut down my ability to exile anything, outside of Sower, the rest of the game. It just slowed me down way too much. Ashiok gets around that while also requiring rather swift action before s/he starts to really hurt. That is why I advocate Ashiok over the other options. 1 Bog + Map is good but again, it gets shut down by Stony Silence unless you draw it naturally. Even then, do you really want to fetch a Bog off of a Map? That just feels so bad compared to grabbing an Eye, Urborg, Temple, or color fixing.
Agreed - Mono black lists with only 4 relics as exilers aren't optimal at all. I'm running 4 Relic, 2 Spellbomb, 2 Surgical, and a Bog (the bog will probably just become a 1 of Wastes or SGW). I don't have any trouble with exilers AND everything is pulling at least double duty (exile/cantrip/graveyard hate).
(probably the final list will have something like 4 Iok and 2/3 seer )
This is where I am at in testing right now in Mono-B. Still subject to change, though.
Wait, are we saying Seer replaces Thoughtseize potentially? I must say I really don't love TS in B/W as it can be very painful for turn 1. Can go as high as 5 life (fetch+shock+TS) although usually 3 or 4. That is still a huge swing.
(probably the final list will have something like 4 Iok and 2/3 seer )
This is where I am at in testing right now in Mono-B. Still subject to change, though.
Wait, are we saying Seer replaces Thoughtseize potentially? I must say I really don't love TS in B/W as it can be very painful for turn 1. Can go as high as 5 life (fetch+shock+TS) although usually 3 or 4. That is still a huge swing.
It's certainly an option - I don't know I'd want to completely drop Thoughtseize though, currently I'm at 4 iok 2 TS, I might drop one TS for a Seer for testing purposes.
Well in Mono B, TS is better IMO since you have a painless manabase. But in B/W it's much more bittersweet to see a TS in your opening hand unless you have a swamp or Urborg as well. I'm not sure I would play Seer in Mono B but in BR/BW he might be a TS replacement for sure.
I don't think going bi-color is as stressful to the mana base as people make it out to be. This deck is quite new to Modern and the new colorless mechanics pose an interesting deck design challenge, but I'm certain the community will "solve" the manabase for each Mono-color and bi-color combination. Mono-black looks very strong right now, but I think Bw or Br will prevail because of the affinity match-up.
On Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: I think this card is not well-suited for this deck because it's main benefit is to offer inevitability. This deck already has inevitability against almost every fair deck in the meta by virtue of playing the biggest creatures around. Ultimately I think Ashiok is win-more.
Matter Reshaper looks like a decent option for the aggro version of the deck and a strong option for the midrange version. It doesn't have the same value as Lingering Souls, but the value is still good and it doesn't require white.
On a side note, is it possible to include a poll in the Primer? I would love to see what people think is the best configuration for this deck. Options could be:
Mono-Black Ramp/Control
Br Aggro
Br Control
Bw Midrange
Bw Control
Bu Control
etc
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You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
We're at the beginning of something Really Excellent here.
So I am thinking of a curve for this deck.
>Eldrazi Temple, pass
>Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer
> Urborg, Reality Smasher, Inquistion of Kozilek
You pull the 2 best cards out of their hand and stick a 5/5 with Trample and Haste that's going to further shrink their hand size to remove. Combine with Lilliana of the Veil and Sea Gate Wreckage and grind them out. Is the processor/Progenitus angle even required anymore?
I fully agree that this is first and foremost a TEMPO DECK. This deck does not excel at control-- the mana base is at odds with removal (An abundance of excellent colourless creatures, a lack of quality colorless removal ((Yes, Spatial Contortion, yes, Warping Wail, but really nothing that compares to the efficiency of Path, Bolt, Dismember)) as are the creatures themselves. What is a turn 3 Blight Herder, Oblivion Sower, et al. doing that any other curve topper can't? A trigger that can't be countered? True, but is sticking 3 1/1s or gaining 1 to 2 lands really what the control deck wants to be doing with it's "win con"? Even if you wanted to stick with the Processors, Wasteland Strangler is the definition of tempo- deconstructs your opponent's board while building your own. It's not efficient at either thing separately (3 mana for -3/-3 or 3 mana for a 3/2) but combined it's a powerful motion. Backed by cheap removal it plays much more like Delver, a tempo deck.
That said, I am getting the impression that the processing angle is not really valuable. Relic of Progenitus isn't a fantastic card in most matchups so you are running suboptimal cards to enable a so-so pay-off. Against Bloom for example, you're running nearly 8 dead cards and this is true for basically any combo match-up that doesn't use the graveyard (So Tron as well)
I like the direction of a <>B deck here and capitalizing on the turn-2 4 mana Eldrazi (That protect themselves/don't die to removal) to overtake the game before it begins.
Thank you for a post actually worth reading here!
What is the other 4-mana Eldrazi that's powerful? I haven't found one that isn't mediocre. Only Thought-Knot Seer makes the cut. Maybe you mean Endless One?
So you're advocating on Lili replacing the graveyard hate we currently play? Lili and what else? More removal? It's an interesting idea at least. I'm just worried that Reality Smasher and Seer aren't enough to really win the game — they're still vulnerable and don't possess the inevitability of things like Oblivion Sower and Blight Herder, which enable you to ramp into Ulamog.
A radically different vision of the deck, I think, and one that has its appeal. But I think we're not quite there yet in terms of creatures.
What about... Bearer of Silence? : )
4 mana for a 2/1 flyer that causes a sac seems strong enough, especially against the popular Zoo, Burn decks. If you land Urborb into Eye then he curves out no problem, otherwise you can just cast him on turn 3 instead.
If we can work our opponent into being hellbent, Reality Smasher is totally invulnerable. (Topdeck a Path, can't cast it without having something else to pitch, next turn: Inquisition of Kozilek)Thus, I think replacing the Processing angle with a hand disruption angle would be more beneficial match-up wise. Every deck that relies on it's graveyard is also susceptible to hand disruption. If you pull the Violet Outburst out of Living End's hand, your graveyard hate becomes that much less important. However, I agree that we can't exactly rely on the curve I demonstrated. I'd like to advocate for a compromise-styled deck that possibly runs Blight Herder (Or something similar) alongside Thought-Knot and Reality Smasher. Blight Herder seems fantastic for this deck, i just with that <>Black had a form of removal that also exiled things, or if we have to play Relic/splash white for Path. We definitely need more beaters to go alongside the hand disruption, and likely something to replace the removal of Wasteland Strangler as well.
Obviously this "new angle" needs a lot of retrofitting in order to come out into it's own but I really don't think the losses outweigh a nearly unbeatable curve backed by hand disruption and some removal elements.
We're at the beginning of something Really Excellent here.
So I am thinking of a curve for this deck.
>Eldrazi Temple, pass
>Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer
> Urborg, Reality Smasher, Inquistion of Kozilek
You pull the 2 best cards out of their hand and stick a 5/5 with Trample and Haste that's going to further shrink their hand size to remove. Combine with Lilliana of the Veil and Sea Gate Wreckage and grind them out. Is the processor/Progenitus angle even required anymore?
I fully agree that this is first and foremost a TEMPO DECK. This deck does not excel at control-- the mana base is at odds with removal (An abundance of excellent colourless creatures, a lack of quality colorless removal ((Yes, Spatial Contortion, yes, Warping Wail, but really nothing that compares to the efficiency of Path, Bolt, Dismember)) as are the creatures themselves. What is a turn 3 Blight Herder, Oblivion Sower, et al. doing that any other curve topper can't? A trigger that can't be countered? True, but is sticking 3 1/1s or gaining 1 to 2 lands really what the control deck wants to be doing with it's "win con"? Even if you wanted to stick with the Processors, Wasteland Strangler is the definition of tempo- deconstructs your opponent's board while building your own. It's not efficient at either thing separately (3 mana for -3/-3 or 3 mana for a 3/2) but combined it's a powerful motion. Backed by cheap removal it plays much more like Delver, a tempo deck.
That said, I am getting the impression that the processing angle is not really valuable. Relic of Progenitus isn't a fantastic card in most matchups so you are running suboptimal cards to enable a so-so pay-off. Against Bloom for example, you're running nearly 8 dead cards and this is true for basically any combo match-up that doesn't use the graveyard (So Tron as well)
I like the direction of a <>B deck here and capitalizing on the turn-2 4 mana Eldrazi (That protect themselves/don't die to removal) to overtake the game before it begins.
I keep seeing Eldrazi Mimic be undervalued and this example perfectly illustrates why it shouldn't be. You're talking about this as a tempo deck with no T1 first of all, so I'm going to add Mimic into this curve.
T1, Temple, Mimic
T2, Eye, Thought-Knot Seer, (Attack with Mimic for 4)
T3 Urborg, Reality Smasher, Inquisition (Attack with Smasher, Seer and Mimic for 14)
Thats attacking for a potential 18 damage on a not particularly unreasonable hand in monoBC, make Eye a T1 play to play as many Mimics and Endless Ones as your hand allows and then you're really cooking.
Good point! I think we should play Mimic with the "new angle" Eldrazi. I'm not sure how I feel about the Endless One still- Is a vanilla 4/4 really what we want to be doing? but at least it's flexible and it's certainly another beater. What about Hangarback Walker though? It's very similar but isn't as vulnerable to removal, albeit smaller overall.
We're at the beginning of something Really Excellent here.
So I am thinking of a curve for this deck.
>Eldrazi Temple, pass
>Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer
> Urborg, Reality Smasher, Inquistion of Kozilek
You pull the 2 best cards out of their hand and stick a 5/5 with Trample and Haste that's going to further shrink their hand size to remove. Combine with Lilliana of the Veil and Sea Gate Wreckage and grind them out. Is the processor/Progenitus angle even required anymore?
I am getting the impression that the processing angle is not really valuable. Relic of Progenitus isn't a fantastic card in most matchups so you are running suboptimal cards to enable a so-so pay-off. Against Bloom for example, you're running nearly 8 dead cards and this is true for basically any combo match-up that doesn't use the graveyard (So Tron as well)
I like the direction of a <>B deck here and capitalizing on the turn-2 4 mana Eldrazi (That protect themselves/don't die to removal) to overtake the game before it begins.
Maindeck graveyard hate is actually one of this deck's true strengths, though. And Processing for value is a key part of the game plan.
Not to say that a good relic-free build isn't possible (or maybe even better), but it won't be the same deck any more than Mono-U Tron is the same deck as RG Tron.
Quote this. Thanks to its only nature this deck shuts down: delve, snapcaster mage, kolaghan's command and decks like living end. Not bad at all
I think "shutting down" and having impact are very different things. You can turn of their Kolaghan's Command, but you haven't locked them out of the game. Not to mention the effect is worse in multiples. Now, if our graveyard hate came loaded on a relevant body then I think the Processing plan would be the strongest angle for the deck. Instead, it's a two-card combo that gives you bonuses on a few of your creatures- Twin's two-card combo wins them the game.
I'm not saying that Relic of Progenitus isn't good for the Processing version, but that it's probably not as strong as simply powering out evasive, difficult to deal with threats as early as turn 2. I agree with deaddrift that the two decks will be vastly different in design (Aside from the essential mana base) but I suspect a Relic-free deck is overall better. At the very least they will probably be in the sideboard.
I'm going to posit a prototype deck list for discussion's sake. Obviously, this deck is wrong, I just want to see what parts of it people are most opposed to so we can immediately scrub out the rough edges.
(Yes boys, we're running 7 Legendary Lands! I want to cut on the Urborb's but I feel letting our Eldrazi lands tap for black is important to get Lilliana out on curve, not to mention Bearer of Silence/Reality Smasher)
(Deck name: Dead Eldrazi Ale?)
Well in Mono B, TS is better IMO since you have a painless manabase. But in B/W it's much more bittersweet to see a TS in your opening hand unless you have a swamp or Urborg as well. I'm not sure I would play Seer in Mono B but in BR/BW he might be a TS replacement for sure.
Agreed - but I still think it's worth exploring the idea of having a TS attached to a 4/4 body - the idea seems very powerful.
If you're trying to get to the optimal number of turn 1 plays in modern (~9), in BW eldrazi, it's likely that 3 manlands and 6 discard spells is going to be stronger than treating Relic like a virtual 2-drop that doesn't do much except fuel blight herder and strangler.
So, herder does something very good which is ramp you to Ulamog early. Strangler is basically just a hopefully 2-for-1 vs. aggro decks, but only if you've started with an exiler. I've seen it as consistently the worst card in the deck, as it's so conditional upon both putting cards in the yard and exiling them. This is especially bad vs. Merfolk (as it usually requires t1 discard, t2 relic, t3 strangler).
I want to emphasize here that Relic is NOT just present to fuel Processing. That is a misunderstanding of the decks' intent. Relic is equally valuable as maindeck graveyard hate. That is a big deal in a meta full of Goyfs, Delve, Snapcaster, Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, Eternal Witness, plus peripheral decks like Grishoalbrand, Gifts, Dredgevine, etc.
Modern is largely a graveyard-reliant format. Many decks use the yard for value. Having this amount of game in G1 versus all these various builds is hugely synergistic with Processing for value.
It can't be emphasized enough how important the card draw is, either. It allows us to feel worry-free about late-game top decks or multiples and to get extra value from what already want to do with the yard and the exile zone.
Of course, "this deck" is rapidly becoming an even less useful concept than it was when were just trying to figure out the BFZ BR/BW/mono-B builds. Time will tell if Relic continues to hold a role in the best colorless/X builds.
I agree that Strangler is the worst card in the build. I rarely hit with it unless I get it late game and then I would rather it were something bigger and more impactful.
What do you think ? My principal meta is mostly agro, not only T1/T2 affinity or infect merkfolk, i play a lot with friend using tribals like Knights, Vampires, Gobling, Zombies and Werewolf, so a lot of agro, that my principal reason to go for BR and use Anger of the Gods in MB.
¿ Should i buy Shock/Fetchlands to change change to BW if the deck against im playing are mostly agro ? Path to exile and lingering souls are tempting against infect or affinity but i dont know if will be enough.
I want to emphasize here that Relic is NOT just present to fuel Processing. That is a misunderstanding of the decks' intent. Relic is equally valuable as maindeck graveyard hate. That is a big deal in a meta full of Goyfs, Delve, Snapcaster, Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, Eternal Witness, plus peripheral decks like Grishoalbrand, Gifts, Dredgevine, etc.
Modern is largely a graveyard-reliant format. Many decks use the yard for value. Having this amount of game in G1 versus all these various builds is hugely synergistic with Processing for value.
It can't be emphasized enough how important the card draw is, either. It allows us to feel worry-free about late-game top decks or multiples and to get extra value from what already want to do with the yard and the exile zone.
This is true, but Overmaster has a point. The last two benefits aren't specific to this deck - most other decks that don't use the graveyard as a resource don't run Relic maindeck because it isn't worth it otherwise. That being said, I can deal with that just because Relic is great when you put it all together; what is abhorrent are the other processing enablers. Nihil Spellbomb and especially Scrabbling Claws feel awful even as GY hosers, and one of the huge draws of the Path to Exile version is that you don't have to play them - and Path to Exile is normally a very sketchy card for a midrange deck to be playing, because you mainly lose by getting out-tempoed! Now that we have additional tools, going processor-less is appealing because then you don't have to play any of those cards. I posted a pretty rough processor-less version earlier, but I wonder if there's a middle ground. If Blight Herder was your only processor, could you get away with only running 4 Relics and some copies of Warping Wail and/or Thought-Knot Seer? Oblivion Sower could reasonably function as an additional fuel source in longer games.
4 MD Relic of Progenitus is a hell of a lot of game versus the GY decks. If you could get away with just that, I would be so pleased.
Anyone feel like this deck is being split in too many directions? I'm counting 7/8 different builds with no ones being added even today. Does anyone have a solution to this? Can ALL BW talk be taken exclusively to the other thread or is that not a good solution?
I do think ALL of the decks have promise and all have different potentially viable angles, it's just EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation when people are referencing so many different builds. Some cards being suggested are straight garbage in some shells and all upside/value in others.
Anyone feel like this deck is being split in too many directions? I'm counting 7/8 different builds with no ones being added even today. Does anyone have a solution to this? Can ALL BW talk be taken exclusively to the other thread or is that not a good solution?
I do think ALL of the decks have promise and all have different potentially viable angles, it's just EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation when people are referencing so many different builds. Some cards being suggested are straight garbage in some shells and all upside/value in others.
The only real solution I can see is posting lots of new threads (mono-B, BR, BW, etc) and then closing this one. If you don't close this one, newcomers may not know to post in the other one.
New threads would be good for organizing, but most information going into this one is relevant since its mainly the core aspects of the deck people are talking about. This early in the game, all ideas are relevant to the core of the new eldrazi archetype.
New threads would be good for organizing, but most information going into this one is relevant since its mainly the core aspects of the deck people are talking about. This early in the game, all ideas are relevant to the core of the new eldrazi archetype.
Kind of- I think the deck archetypes are becoming rapidly established, and it's frustrating for people to be talking about Ashiok and Lingering souls in the same thread where other people want to be talking about Kozilek's Return and Sea Gate Wreckage.
I agree, also, that <> should be considered a color on its own.
Personally the only two cards I can see being most likely to be played in multiple formats are Reality Smasher and Warping Wail (many people have pointed out that it will probably see heavy Vintage/Legacy play in addition to Modern). Wail can be had for $1.50 each right now. The next best cards that I am personally still on the fence about are Sea Gate Wreckage and Thought-Knot Seer. Sea Gate has potential to be played in non-rotating formats but likely as just a one or two-of and as several have mentioned it is very close to Library of Alexandria. Last I checked it was around $2-3 each so it might be just cheap enough to acquire a playset. Seer is really only viable in this archetype and may or may not even make the cut in the end; at $4 or so each that is a little too steep for my liking.
Bingo. Anyone considering splashing a third color is getting way ahead of themselves. Anyone considering black to not be integral to the deck is getting ahead of themselves.
I actually really like this. Its kind of like a backwards Abbot of Keral Keep. This can even put lands into play. In a deck that wants to ramp, that seems pretty powerful. Its worse with things like Lingering Souls but does get better with things like Ashiok. Unfortunately it doesn't work super well with Eldrazi in general because of the CMC restriction. It does at least draw you a card though but how much better or worse is that than anything else you could be doing?
This is exactly why I play U/B instead of W/B. I feel like I stumble so often getting enough things to process into exile. Ashiok is SO good for that. People say s/he doesn't do enough/anything when s/he comes into play, and yeah, s/he doesn't actually effect the board but s/he immediately puts cards in exile and requires to be dealt with. That is a kind of impact. I often find that I wish I was running 3 Ashiok's instead of just the two. I really think the deck wants 6 minimum ways to put things in Exile and Path/Delay/Reality Shift don't really count because they don't put enough things in exile at a time to really count. They do help but are not enough on their own. This deck wants 6-8 in some combination of Ashiok, Bojuka Bog, Scrabbling Claws, Pyxis, Relic, or Nihil Spellbomb. I think, of those, Ashiok is the most powerful because it is a/can generate a threat all on its own. The others are just tools to power out your actual threats without themselves, also being a threat. I think U/B has a lot of things going for it that W doesn't and yet also has a comparable advantage to white. I couldnt think of a good way to compare my thoughts so I put together a little chart. It is super simple and I realize there are a lot of other things that go into this such as sideboards etc but it kind of illustrates my thoughts.
Also, regarding mana bases, I've been really tempted to put a single B/x Shock/Tango of every color into the deck to have a way to utilize opponent's fetches we get off of Sower. I happen to have all but the B/G one so its not like I'd have to go obtain the cards but I think it would stress the mana base too much. I generally play the U/B version and I think for any deck rocking a splash its too much but I could see it being feasible in the Mono-B version. Just a thought. I know Urborg takes care of that usually but still.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
This is where I am at in testing right now in Mono-B. Still subject to change, though.
2 things -
On Ashiok - Yes, Ashiok represents a later game threat, but Ashiok does not either cantrip OR hose graveyard strategies. In my opinion the exile enabling is the least important part of the exile enablers - we need the card draw and us getting to hose graveyards gives us INCREDIBLE game against many decks that otherwise a deck like this would have trouble against. We ruin all graveyard based combo decks, we ruin all graveyard based value cards, etc. This cannot be overstated, MUCH of the power of the deck comes from the fact that we get to just run these enablers as party of our gameplan. Huge.
On the shocks/tangolands - I've not had a problem with sower lands being useless. Sure, sometimes you'll exile like a Wooded Foothills or something, but the vast majority of the time I've got an Urborg out. Diluting the manabase or making it more painful is taking away one of the other things that makes version of this deck so strong in that our manabase is relatively painless.
Just some thoughts.
Yes it does not cantrip, but it provides unlimited processing fuel, in short removing Lingering Souls for 2 Rest in Peace and 2 Flaying Tendrils with the standard 4 Relic of Progenitus, it should be enough.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
The only real benefit of white over the other colors is Souls + Sideboard (I'm not sold on path as being essential or the best option, you're ramping them, and we don't care about big creatures because ours are bigger), so basically you're just getting some sideboard options if you use RIP. Is a more painful and awkward manabase worth that?
I'm by no means suggesting that s/he replace Relic. Relic is a staple as far as I am concerned. I am suggesting that she put in addition. (I assume you probably know this but thought I'd put it out there).
That said, I've seen a lot of non-Mono-B lists running only the 4 Relics and I don't think you can operate all of your processors when you need them on that little exile power. I really think the deck needs at LEAST 6 of some combination of Relic, Claws, Ashiok, Spellbomb, or Bog. I also like that Ashiok is NOT an artifact. I've played against a lot of matches where the opponent got down a turn 2 Stony Silence and shut down my ability to exile anything, outside of Sower, the rest of the game. It just slowed me down way too much. Ashiok gets around that while also requiring rather swift action before s/he starts to really hurt. That is why I advocate Ashiok over the other options. 1 Bog + Map is good but again, it gets shut down by Stony Silence unless you draw it naturally. Even then, do you really want to fetch a Bog off of a Map? That just feels so bad compared to grabbing an Eye, Urborg, Temple, or color fixing.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Agreed - Mono black lists with only 4 relics as exilers aren't optimal at all. I'm running 4 Relic, 2 Spellbomb, 2 Surgical, and a Bog (the bog will probably just become a 1 of Wastes or SGW). I don't have any trouble with exilers AND everything is pulling at least double duty (exile/cantrip/graveyard hate).
It's certainly an option - I don't know I'd want to completely drop Thoughtseize though, currently I'm at 4 iok 2 TS, I might drop one TS for a Seer for testing purposes.
On Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: I think this card is not well-suited for this deck because it's main benefit is to offer inevitability. This deck already has inevitability against almost every fair deck in the meta by virtue of playing the biggest creatures around. Ultimately I think Ashiok is win-more.
Matter Reshaper looks like a decent option for the aggro version of the deck and a strong option for the midrange version. It doesn't have the same value as Lingering Souls, but the value is still good and it doesn't require white.
On a side note, is it possible to include a poll in the Primer? I would love to see what people think is the best configuration for this deck. Options could be:
Mono-Black Ramp/Control
Br Aggro
Br Control
Bw Midrange
Bw Control
Bu Control
etc
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
What about... Bearer of Silence? : )
4 mana for a 2/1 flyer that causes a sac seems strong enough, especially against the popular Zoo, Burn decks. If you land Urborb into Eye then he curves out no problem, otherwise you can just cast him on turn 3 instead.
If we can work our opponent into being hellbent, Reality Smasher is totally invulnerable. (Topdeck a Path, can't cast it without having something else to pitch, next turn: Inquisition of Kozilek)Thus, I think replacing the Processing angle with a hand disruption angle would be more beneficial match-up wise. Every deck that relies on it's graveyard is also susceptible to hand disruption. If you pull the Violet Outburst out of Living End's hand, your graveyard hate becomes that much less important. However, I agree that we can't exactly rely on the curve I demonstrated. I'd like to advocate for a compromise-styled deck that possibly runs Blight Herder (Or something similar) alongside Thought-Knot and Reality Smasher. Blight Herder seems fantastic for this deck, i just with that <>Black had a form of removal that also exiled things, or if we have to play Relic/splash white for Path. We definitely need more beaters to go alongside the hand disruption, and likely something to replace the removal of Wasteland Strangler as well.
Obviously this "new angle" needs a lot of retrofitting in order to come out into it's own but I really don't think the losses outweigh a nearly unbeatable curve backed by hand disruption and some removal elements.
Good point! I think we should play Mimic with the "new angle" Eldrazi. I'm not sure how I feel about the Endless One still- Is a vanilla 4/4 really what we want to be doing? but at least it's flexible and it's certainly another beater. What about Hangarback Walker though? It's very similar but isn't as vulnerable to removal, albeit smaller overall.
I think "shutting down" and having impact are very different things. You can turn of their Kolaghan's Command, but you haven't locked them out of the game. Not to mention the effect is worse in multiples. Now, if our graveyard hate came loaded on a relevant body then I think the Processing plan would be the strongest angle for the deck. Instead, it's a two-card combo that gives you bonuses on a few of your creatures- Twin's two-card combo wins them the game.
I'm not saying that Relic of Progenitus isn't good for the Processing version, but that it's probably not as strong as simply powering out evasive, difficult to deal with threats as early as turn 2. I agree with deaddrift that the two decks will be vastly different in design (Aside from the essential mana base) but I suspect a Relic-free deck is overall better. At the very least they will probably be in the sideboard.
I'm going to posit a prototype deck list for discussion's sake. Obviously, this deck is wrong, I just want to see what parts of it people are most opposed to so we can immediately scrub out the rough edges.
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Eye of Ugin
3x Tomb of Urborg
3x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Swamp
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtsieze
Creature:
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Eldrazi Mimic
4x Bearer of Silence
4x Endless One
4x Dismember
3x Warping Wail
3x Murderous Cut
Planeswalker:
4x Lilliana of the Veil
(Yes boys, we're running 7 Legendary Lands! I want to cut on the Urborb's but I feel letting our Eldrazi lands tap for black is important to get Lilliana out on curve, not to mention Bearer of Silence/Reality Smasher)
(Deck name: Dead Eldrazi Ale?)
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Agreed - but I still think it's worth exploring the idea of having a TS attached to a 4/4 body - the idea seems very powerful.
Modern is largely a graveyard-reliant format. Many decks use the yard for value. Having this amount of game in G1 versus all these various builds is hugely synergistic with Processing for value.
It can't be emphasized enough how important the card draw is, either. It allows us to feel worry-free about late-game top decks or multiples and to get extra value from what already want to do with the yard and the exile zone.
Of course, "this deck" is rapidly becoming an even less useful concept than it was when were just trying to figure out the BFZ BR/BW/mono-B builds. Time will tell if Relic continues to hold a role in the best colorless/X builds.
I agree that Strangler is the worst card in the build. I rarely hit with it unless I get it late game and then I would rather it were something bigger and more impactful.
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Eye of Ugin
4x Blood Crypt
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Sulfurous Springs
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bokuka Bog
2x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x All is Dust
2x Teminate
1x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Lightning Bolt
Artifacts
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Scrabbing claws
2x Expedition Map
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Void Winnower
4x Oblivion Sower
4x Blight Herder
4x Wasteland Strangler
What do you think ? My principal meta is mostly agro, not only T1/T2 affinity or infect merkfolk, i play a lot with friend using tribals like Knights, Vampires, Gobling, Zombies and Werewolf, so a lot of agro, that my principal reason to go for BR and use Anger of the Gods in MB.
¿ Should i buy Shock/Fetchlands to change change to BW if the deck against im playing are mostly agro ? Path to exile and lingering souls are tempting against infect or affinity but i dont know if will be enough.
Another question is that right now im running 4xRelic of Progenitus and 2x Scrabbing claws and im thining in change the Scrabbing claws and Void Winnower for 3x Thought-Knot Seer ¿ Will be 4xRelic of Progenitus enough?
Thx a lot
BWC Processors Eldrazi CWB
UBC Emerge EldraziCBU
C Tron Eldrazi C
RBC Meld Eldrazi CBR
GU Tokens Eldrazi UG
4 MD Relic of Progenitus is a hell of a lot of game versus the GY decks. If you could get away with just that, I would be so pleased.
I do think ALL of the decks have promise and all have different potentially viable angles, it's just EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation when people are referencing so many different builds. Some cards being suggested are straight garbage in some shells and all upside/value in others.
Kind of- I think the deck archetypes are becoming rapidly established, and it's frustrating for people to be talking about Ashiok and Lingering souls in the same thread where other people want to be talking about Kozilek's Return and Sea Gate Wreckage.
This deck needs it's own sub-forum.
4 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Wasteland Strangler
Instants (5)
3 Dismember
2 Slaughter Pact
Sorceries (6)
2 Flaying Tendrils
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Artifacts (12)
3 Expedition Map
2 Mind Stone
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scrabbling Claws
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Ghost Quarter
6 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Ruin Processor
2 Disfigure
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Memoricide
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW