I don't think you get the discount off of the extra cost. If these work as i think they do, our eldrazi lands don't help much cheating this thing. The only way this doesn't cost the full 4 is having urborg + eye + colorless land, otherwise it stills recquires 4 lands (B1 + 1C)... and part of the value we get from creature-spells is blocking...
What i DO like is can't be countered effect, but i'd play liliana over that guy any time.
So do we literally not need any non-creature spells outside possibly instants? This is turning into true madness.
Iok and Thoughtseize are REALLY good cards, and I'd be hesitant to give up map and relic.. but otherwise almost everything we need has been stapled to an undercosted and pushed creature in some way.
I'm still wondering if Eye reduces the cost on that 2/1 flying eldrazi's extra cost, though. I think it would still end up costing 3 cmc total to cast with the kicker effect.
It's a triggered ability, not an additional cost, so no. An additional cost would have a wording of "You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell." Reference: kicker
Are there any CURRENT (not OGW) tech cards people would like me to include on the front page? Any matchup changes that need to be made? I'll be doing a big addition post-OGW but I want to keep it as up to date until then.
For WWWWW:
I might add that Rest in Peace is a nonbo with Souls, sometimes people do ask about RiP without considering that.
Some people have tried Stonecloaker but I think that's pretty peripheral.
Maybe add Caves of Koilos since it provides C (relevant for Oath) and we don't usually need to tap one for color more than once or twice in a game, so it compares favorably to Godless Shrine.
Thanks much for the hard work to put everything together in such an effective form.
This is ridiculous. I've been on the deck for a while and always thought it had potential but I think these new cards make the deck extremely competitive. Thoughtseize on a creature and edict on a creature is bonkers
I wonder if other users might think it's a good idea to attach their preferred variant (seems to be Mono-B, BW, and BR) to their signatures? With all these different new cards, most of which are available to each deck variant, and the decks' respective strategies/needs being pretty different from each other, it might help to identify which users are addressing which deck perspective.
Or people might just as easily add the info in their comment text.
Excuse my presumption. Thanks for reading. Just a thought.
I wonder if other users might think it's a good idea to attach their preferred variant (seems to be Mono-B, BW, and BR) to their signatures? With all these different new cards, most of which are available to each deck variant, and the decks' respective strategies/needs being pretty different from each other, it might help to identify which users are addressing which deck perspective.
Or people might just as easily add the info in their comment text.
Excuse my presumption. Thanks for reading. Just a thought.
I've said before that we need separate threads for the different variants (Like Twin has). The cores of the decks are similar but the way they play out is a lot different. What might fit into one version of the deck might actually make another version worse....so trying to sift through stuff relevant to your version can be a pain sometimes.
I said this in the BW thread, but this new Bearer of Silence guy is really bad. He gets 0 benefit from our lands. Eye of Ugin only reduces his cost by 1, so its like a normal land drop. His ability isn't activated so temple doesn't help. Since he is 1B, you can't even tap temple to cast him since it would just be for the 1 mana. Outside of the fringe Eye+Urborg+Temple, case, he's not castable till you're paying full cost for him. And if you have Eye+Urborg+Temple, you could be getting 6 mana worth in value, not 4. He just really isn't that good.
I think it's a good 1-2 of in the sideboard for matchups where Strangler can't kill anything like Tron or Boggles, but I agree that it's probably not main deck material.
I wonder if other users might think it's a good idea to attach their preferred variant (seems to be Mono-B, BW, and BR) to their signatures? With all these different new cards, most of which are available to each deck variant, and the decks' respective strategies/needs being pretty different from each other, it might help to identify which users are addressing which deck perspective.
Or people might just as easily add the info in their comment text.
Excuse my presumption. Thanks for reading. Just a thought.
I've said before that we need separate threads for the different variants (Like Twin has). The cores of the decks are similar but the way they play out is a lot different. What might fit into one version of the deck might actually make another version worse....so trying to sift through stuff relevant to your version can be a pain sometimes.
I agree, but I suspect that it might be a while before such threads are developed. BW has one but it changes much more slowly. This thread tops the forum and is where all the action is right now. In the meantime maybe we could help each other keep all the comments matched to the color perspective.
As I said, just a thought. I appreciate your self-ID by the way
I said this in the BW thread, but this new Bearer of Silence guy is really bad. He gets 0 benefit from our lands. Eye of Ugin only reduces his cost by 1, so its like a normal land drop. His ability isn't activated so temple doesn't help. Since he is 1B, you can't even tap temple to cast him since it would just be for the 1 mana. Outside of the fringe Eye+Urborg+Temple, case, he's not castable till you're paying full cost for him. And if you have Eye+Urborg+Temple, you could be getting 6 mana worth in value, not 4. He just really isn't that good.
I think it's a good 1-2 of in the sideboard for matchups where Strangler can't kill anything like Tron or Boggles, but I agree that it's probably not main deck material.
Yeah, i do agree, side might be the better option for him
I said this in the BW thread, but this new Bearer of Silence guy is really bad. He gets 0 benefit from our lands. Eye of Ugin only reduces his cost by 1, so its like a normal land drop. His ability isn't activated so temple doesn't help. Since he is 1B, you can't even tap temple to cast him since it would just be for the 1 mana. Outside of the fringe Eye+Urborg+Temple, case, he's not castable till you're paying full cost for him. And if you have Eye+Urborg+Temple, you could be getting 6 mana worth in value, not 4. He just really isn't that good.
I think it's a good 1-2 of in the sideboard for matchups where Strangler can't kill anything like Tron or Boggles, but I agree that it's probably not main deck material.
Yeah, i do agree, side might be the better option for him
I disagree. For all of this deck's land mechanic it is NOT an eldrazi, it has ZERO upside in our deck. He is only being discussed because he has creature type "eldrazi" but this is completely irrelevant for all of this deck's purposes. If you are looking for an edict effect there are already a lot available that are just better. For bogles just pack a couple of spellskite plus ratchet bomb for mono black or engineered explosives for b/x and call it a day (and they also don't get screwed by the opponent fetching dryad arbor or just playing a second bogle).
The real question is would you play a 4 mana 2/1 that can't block and has an edict effect, but isn't an eldrazi?
Round 1 vs. Jund. In the first game, he knew the gig was up before I played a card. Inquisition of Kozilek too my only target in Path to Exile. I had trouble with not drawing anything to exile, but I had removal and discard. Then I landed Oblivion Sower. It was over once I landed 2 Blight Herder now and had an available Eye of Ugin with mana. In the next game, I kept on Temple of Silence and Eye of Ugin. I couldn't find a land until turn 6 and he built up a board that I could not come back from. By the time I could come back, he had removal for my blockers and when I was at 1 life, one of his cards in hand was Kolaghan's Command. In the final game, I just drew too many land. I Sowered 4 land with 2 Sowers from him, fetched all of my fetchable lands out. I could not draw Eye of Ugin or enough action and lost with still a Swamp in hand. 1-2.
Round 2 vs. Liege Rhino. This is basically Wilted Abzan without mana dorks. It is a fairly common deck at my LGS and this new guy was running it. I stop what he has in game 1 until I start activating Eye of Ugin every turn, saccing Eldrazi Scions after casting Blight Herders. I don't show Ulamog because I didn't know if the guy knew the deck or not. In the next game, he just rushed me with creatures. I killed a bunch, but was a Damnation or All is Dust short of winning easily. The last game is similar to the first. I make it to the late game and start activating Eye of Ugin. Since he was stuck on 4 land that late in the game, I got Ulamog and exiled 2 land. He did Path to Exile, his 7th of the 3 games and 2nd on Ulamogs, but I kept doing Eye every turn. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Kiki Chord. He went for the combo on turn 5. I did Go for the Throat, which he can't redirect to Spellskite. I should have killed Kiki instead of Resto Angel because he had another Resto next turn and all I had was Slaughter Pact redirected to the Skite. The next game, he swarms me with creatures and I fail to see 2 Damnation or All is Dust in a horribly long game. I swing with 1 creature too many. I lose next turn. Since I was paired down, he scooped to me. 2-0.
So technically I was 1-2. It was rough. I don't know if I should have mulliganed, but the Jund opponent playing Inquisition of Kozilek every turn 1 in all 3 games, followed by Dark Confidant on turn 2 in 2 of the games and just hitting his curve while I drew a million Eye of Ugin-less lands in a game and missed 4 straight land drops in another. Relic was drawn once in these 3 games, but I cracked it to try to draw a land.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I am much less enthusiastic about thought-knot seer than some people seem to be. The fact that they get to draw is way bigger than people are thinking. It is discard on legs, but that it turns terminate into card advantage is pretty painful. If there was anyway to wiggle out of it I might be on the hype train, but that is a heavy cost
Reality Smasher is a pretty solid card, though I am not making space for it just yet.
I am much less enthusiastic about thought-knot seer than some people seem to be. The fact that they get to draw is way bigger than people are thinking. It is discard on legs, but that it turns terminate into card advantage is pretty painful. If there was anyway to wiggle out of it I might be on the hype train, but that is a heavy cost
Reality Smasher is a pretty solid card, though I am not making space for it just yet.
It's a far less heavy cost then say, getting the card you picked back, probably the exact card they want as opposed to a random draw.
Also, when someone Terminates your Seer, it's not card advantage for them, it's simply parity. You exiled a card, they get a new one. Body for removal, exile for draw.
I do think Thought-Knot Seer is pretty reasonable, but not stellar. Maybe good in the aggro lists, and possibly Sideboard material for combo matchups too.
@Stubbe, I don't think you can go all in on creatures and skip out on the ramp and Scrabbling Claws. These decks can be inconsistent; the ramp and cantrip spell are pretty necessary it seems. You might get by with only a couple Scrabbling Claws and a handful of mindstones/maps, but I think you need a nonzero number of them. Not playing discard also seems very risky in this format. I think the aggro versions will be successful to some extent, but they will still need to share a similar core.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I said this in the BW thread, but this new Bearer of Silence guy is really bad. He gets 0 benefit from our lands. Eye of Ugin only reduces his cost by 1, so its like a normal land drop. His ability isn't activated so temple doesn't help. Since he is 1B, you can't even tap temple to cast him since it would just be for the 1 mana. Outside of the fringe Eye+Urborg+Temple, case, he's not castable till you're paying full cost for him. And if you have Eye+Urborg+Temple, you could be getting 6 mana worth in value, not 4. He just really isn't that good.
I think it's a good 1-2 of in the sideboard for matchups where Strangler can't kill anything like Tron or Boggles, but I agree that it's probably not main deck material.
Yeah, i do agree, side might be the better option for him
I disagree. For all of this deck's land mechanic it is NOT an eldrazi, it has ZERO upside in our deck. He is only being discussed because he has creature type "eldrazi" but this is completely irrelevant for all of this deck's purposes. If you are looking for an edict effect there are already a lot available that are just better. For bogles just pack a couple of spellskite plus ratchet bomb for mono black or engineered explosives for b/x and call it a day (and they also don't get screwed by the opponent fetching dryad arbor or just playing a second bogle).
The real question is would you play a 4 mana 2/1 that can't block and has an edict effect, but isn't an eldrazi?
Echoing my thoughts exactly. Just because he is an eldrazi, doesn't mean he deserves testing. He benefits 0 from the way our deck is set up. I think its a pretty easy auto non include.
I'm stoked that this deck is getting so many new tools, and really think variations of the archetype are going to be a powerhouse that rises through the tiers. I have to say though, I'm a little sad to see the monumental price increase on cards like Eye and temple. I already have my playsets of everything so it doesn't bother me too much, and I know this is just how modern works. But it seems like (much like Grixis post Kolaghan's command) what was formerly a fun and relatively cheap deck that you could buy into to get into the format is now yet another uber expensive modern deck. That's all I'm going to say about that, and now I can continue to be stoked about more awesome OGW spoilers
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
So what do you think Guys, is it better to preorder this new eldrazi now or to wait? Maybe some new eldrazi will go out and also I will play the prerelease in search of some copies of them. I'm afraid they may go up
I've been wondering this about Reality Smasher. I bought in earlier today at $15 for a playset on ebay and that doesn't feel like a bad deal (I think that's still what they're going for). It's a 5/5 haste/trample on-curve that has evasion / card advantage built in, plus it's colorless so a lot of decks can run it -- imo it's totally reasonable to think that it might become a thing in standard, so $3.50/card doesn't seem like a huge risk.
Thought-Knot Seer, though, seems pretty bad for standard. It's cute with the rhino flicker dude, but I don't think it's good enough without our sol lands. If you're casting it after T4 your opponent might just not have much value left in their hand to steal, and passing the bolt / abrupt decay tests isn't relevant in that format. I think it probably has room to drop from prerelease pricing, which is also about $15 for a playset atm. I could be wrong though.
Rhino flicker dude I just have no idea how to evaluate. Could be good for standard, could be terrible for standard, idk. He definitely flickers rhinos, so that's a thing.
Edit: I also agree with some of the other posters that Bearer of Silence is garbage for this deck, so um, don't buy that at prerelease.
Also, when someone Terminates your Seer, it's not card advantage for them, it's simply parity. You exiled a card, they get a new one. Body for removal, exile for draw.
I do think Thought-Knot Seer is pretty reasonable, but not stellar. Maybe good in the aggro lists, and possibly Sideboard material for combo matchups too.
@Stubbe, I don't think you can go all in on creatures and skip out on the ramp and Scrabbling Claws. These decks can be inconsistent; the ramp and cantrip spell are pretty necessary it seems. You might get by with only a couple Scrabbling Claws and a handful of mindstones/maps, but I think you need a nonzero number of them. Not playing discard also seems very risky in this format. I think the aggro versions will be successful to some extent, but they will still need to share a similar core.
I would even say you're up in parity, as you choose a card to exile(probably one that you can't deal with or a combo piece) and they draw a random card in place.
Also, with removal as sparse in modern as it is now, the only removals commonly played that can rid them of this card are path, dismember, roast, go for the throat, terminate.
Seems alright by me
Parity specifically means number of cards. Obviously parity isn't what matters here, but quality and selection. Path is not a parity card, but you trade a spell to turn their creature into a land. In the case of clique like effects, you take their best card and turn it into a random card. Its always pretty good.
Parity specifically means number of cards. Obviously parity isn't what matters here, but quality and selection. Path is not a parity card, but you trade a spell to turn their creature into a land. In the case of clique like effects, you take their best card and turn it into a random card. Its always pretty good.
I always thought of parity in terms of tug of war. A little here and a little there, kind of like how jund wins. Hence parity in terms of overall quality(random card drawn) not raw quantity(number of cards), but I guess we all agree on how the card should be evaulated
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What i DO like is can't be countered effect, but i'd play liliana over that guy any time.
It's a triggered ability, not an additional cost, so no. An additional cost would have a wording of "You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell." Reference: kicker
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I might add that Rest in Peace is a nonbo with Souls, sometimes people do ask about RiP without considering that.
I don't see Celestial Purge or Disenchant on the list.
Some people have tried Stonecloaker but I think that's pretty peripheral.
Maybe add Caves of Koilos since it provides C (relevant for Oath) and we don't usually need to tap one for color more than once or twice in a game, so it compares favorably to Godless Shrine.
Thanks much for the hard work to put everything together in such an effective form.
WZ is reading our demands, i'm sure about that !!!
That can't block could be a lifelink, or it could have the Tribute to Hunger effect on its sacrifice, well, guess this is asking to much ah lol
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
[EDIT]: Just noticed that the sac is a T3 play at the earliest. Tricky...
I wonder if other users might think it's a good idea to attach their preferred variant (seems to be Mono-B, BW, and BR) to their signatures? With all these different new cards, most of which are available to each deck variant, and the decks' respective strategies/needs being pretty different from each other, it might help to identify which users are addressing which deck perspective.
Or people might just as easily add the info in their comment text.
Excuse my presumption. Thanks for reading. Just a thought.
I've said before that we need separate threads for the different variants (Like Twin has). The cores of the decks are similar but the way they play out is a lot different. What might fit into one version of the deck might actually make another version worse....so trying to sift through stuff relevant to your version can be a pain sometimes.
As I said, just a thought. I appreciate your self-ID by the way
Yeah, i do agree, side might be the better option for him
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I disagree. For all of this deck's land mechanic it is NOT an eldrazi, it has ZERO upside in our deck. He is only being discussed because he has creature type "eldrazi" but this is completely irrelevant for all of this deck's purposes. If you are looking for an edict effect there are already a lot available that are just better. For bogles just pack a couple of spellskite plus ratchet bomb for mono black or engineered explosives for b/x and call it a day (and they also don't get screwed by the opponent fetching dryad arbor or just playing a second bogle).
The real question is would you play a 4 mana 2/1 that can't block and has an edict effect, but isn't an eldrazi?
Round 1 vs. Jund. In the first game, he knew the gig was up before I played a card. Inquisition of Kozilek too my only target in Path to Exile. I had trouble with not drawing anything to exile, but I had removal and discard. Then I landed Oblivion Sower. It was over once I landed 2 Blight Herder now and had an available Eye of Ugin with mana. In the next game, I kept on Temple of Silence and Eye of Ugin. I couldn't find a land until turn 6 and he built up a board that I could not come back from. By the time I could come back, he had removal for my blockers and when I was at 1 life, one of his cards in hand was Kolaghan's Command. In the final game, I just drew too many land. I Sowered 4 land with 2 Sowers from him, fetched all of my fetchable lands out. I could not draw Eye of Ugin or enough action and lost with still a Swamp in hand. 1-2.
Round 2 vs. Liege Rhino. This is basically Wilted Abzan without mana dorks. It is a fairly common deck at my LGS and this new guy was running it. I stop what he has in game 1 until I start activating Eye of Ugin every turn, saccing Eldrazi Scions after casting Blight Herders. I don't show Ulamog because I didn't know if the guy knew the deck or not. In the next game, he just rushed me with creatures. I killed a bunch, but was a Damnation or All is Dust short of winning easily. The last game is similar to the first. I make it to the late game and start activating Eye of Ugin. Since he was stuck on 4 land that late in the game, I got Ulamog and exiled 2 land. He did Path to Exile, his 7th of the 3 games and 2nd on Ulamogs, but I kept doing Eye every turn. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Kiki Chord. He went for the combo on turn 5. I did Go for the Throat, which he can't redirect to Spellskite. I should have killed Kiki instead of Resto Angel because he had another Resto next turn and all I had was Slaughter Pact redirected to the Skite. The next game, he swarms me with creatures and I fail to see 2 Damnation or All is Dust in a horribly long game. I swing with 1 creature too many. I lose next turn. Since I was paired down, he scooped to me. 2-0.
So technically I was 1-2. It was rough. I don't know if I should have mulliganed, but the Jund opponent playing Inquisition of Kozilek every turn 1 in all 3 games, followed by Dark Confidant on turn 2 in 2 of the games and just hitting his curve while I drew a million Eye of Ugin-less lands in a game and missed 4 straight land drops in another. Relic was drawn once in these 3 games, but I cracked it to try to draw a land.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Reality Smasher is a pretty solid card, though I am not making space for it just yet.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
It's a far less heavy cost then say, getting the card you picked back, probably the exact card they want as opposed to a random draw.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
I do think Thought-Knot Seer is pretty reasonable, but not stellar. Maybe good in the aggro lists, and possibly Sideboard material for combo matchups too.
@Stubbe, I don't think you can go all in on creatures and skip out on the ramp and Scrabbling Claws. These decks can be inconsistent; the ramp and cantrip spell are pretty necessary it seems. You might get by with only a couple Scrabbling Claws and a handful of mindstones/maps, but I think you need a nonzero number of them. Not playing discard also seems very risky in this format. I think the aggro versions will be successful to some extent, but they will still need to share a similar core.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Echoing my thoughts exactly. Just because he is an eldrazi, doesn't mean he deserves testing. He benefits 0 from the way our deck is set up. I think its a pretty easy auto non include.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I've been wondering this about Reality Smasher. I bought in earlier today at $15 for a playset on ebay and that doesn't feel like a bad deal (I think that's still what they're going for). It's a 5/5 haste/trample on-curve that has evasion / card advantage built in, plus it's colorless so a lot of decks can run it -- imo it's totally reasonable to think that it might become a thing in standard, so $3.50/card doesn't seem like a huge risk.
Thought-Knot Seer, though, seems pretty bad for standard. It's cute with the rhino flicker dude, but I don't think it's good enough without our sol lands. If you're casting it after T4 your opponent might just not have much value left in their hand to steal, and passing the bolt / abrupt decay tests isn't relevant in that format. I think it probably has room to drop from prerelease pricing, which is also about $15 for a playset atm. I could be wrong though.
Rhino flicker dude I just have no idea how to evaluate. Could be good for standard, could be terrible for standard, idk. He definitely flickers rhinos, so that's a thing.
Edit: I also agree with some of the other posters that Bearer of Silence is garbage for this deck, so um, don't buy that at prerelease.
I would even say you're up in parity, as you choose a card to exile(probably one that you can't deal with or a combo piece) and they draw a random card in place.
Also, with removal as sparse in modern as it is now, the only removals commonly played that can rid them of this card are path, dismember, roast, go for the throat, terminate.
Seems alright by me
WBGCompany
I always thought of parity in terms of tug of war. A little here and a little there, kind of like how jund wins. Hence parity in terms of overall quality(random card drawn) not raw quantity(number of cards), but I guess we all agree on how the card should be evaulated
WBGCompany