Another mana-related question is basic Wastes. With only 4 TKS and 2 Warping Wail, do we care that much if we get shut off of <> by Blood Moon? I'm pretty sure it's necessary in the <>B builds that are also running Reality Smasher and 3-4 Warping Wail alongside TKS, but I don't know about this build.
Is vault that good, even without maps?? I think I could cut bojuka for it, so I will have 2 vents and one vault. Many times I was forced to play bojuka tapped on turn 1 only yo have that black mana, without exiling anything
Vault of the Archangel is amazing with tokens on the board. Nobody can swing into Spirit tokens backed by an untapped Vault; or if you swing with it open, you can pump your own life total and recover. Many times I have stabilized at low single digit life totals and Vault buys breathing room. I would have to have a very good reason to cut it in a tokens-heavy build. Sea Gate Wreckage does not look like a good enough reason to me, especially since I already have 6 cantrip artifacts in the deck for extra cards.
On another note: I am going to try split of 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Inquisition of Kozilek, and 2x Duress mainboard. IoK is bad against Twin, Tron, and Scapeshift; while Thoughseize is bad against Burn; and Duress is bad against Zoo, Merfolk, CoCo decks, etc. This way I have four solid disruption spells against any deck I might see, with two cards that are easy cuts for boarding out in G2/3.
I had 2x Seize and 3 IoK with one All is Dust. The sweeper goes to rebalance the hand disruption.
I want to point out the synergy between Vault and Eye, which I forgot to spell out above: If both are on the field then we have options for our mana sinks during an opponent's turn; and if we have cards in hand, then they have to assume we might be holding spot removal as well.
Eight open lands on the field, including an Eye and a Vault, is GREAT place to be during an opponent's turn.
Another mana-related question is basic Wastes. With only 4 TKS and 2 Warping Wail, do we care that much if we get shut off of <> by Blood Moon? I'm pretty sure it's necessary in the <>B builds that are also running Reality Smasher and 3-4 Warping Wail alongside TKS, but I don't know about this build.
G2 you have three cards that allows you to avoid moon: disenchant, celestial purge and Blight herder's scions. In all my games I really hadn't so much problems vs blood moon, I also could cast an Ulamog with 6 lands and 4 scions. I think fulminator Mage, for example, is much better against us
This is true, and if you don't run Warping Wail, I think you can get away with something like this:
I don't like the idea of cutting Marsh Flats entirely, but I could appreciate reducing the numbers to 2-3 to accommodate a 1-off Wastes.
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
I don't see the point. Your goal is to consistently get your B/W source on Turn 1-3 online. If you replace all 4 fetches with Cave of Kolios you (and I was running 2 Isolated Chapels that are going to be replaced with Godless Shrines) you still have that same chance. If you'd have a fetch in hand, you instead have a Cave which gives you all 3 "colors" you need. If you draw a natural godless shrine you have that as well. I don't think we need Fetches in this deck.
I don't like the idea of cutting Marsh Flats entirely, but I could appreciate reducing the numbers to 2-3 to accommodate a 1-off Wastes.
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
I don't see the point. Your goal is to consistently get your B/W source on Turn 1-3 online. If you replace all 4 fetches with Cave of Kolios you (and I was running 2 Isolated Chapels that are going to be replaced with Godless Shrines) you still have that same chance. If you'd have a fetch in hand, you instead have a Cave which gives you all 3 "colors" you need. If you draw a natural godless shrine you have that as well. I don't think we need Fetches in this deck.
I like fetches for a two main reasons. First, they allow you to greatly improve the chance that you have accces to an early basic land when trying to play around Blood Moon. This is huge and enough of a reason by itself. Second, they enable you to play fewer copies of Godless Shrine, which is good because past the first one, each Godless Shrine afterwards is an awful topdeck. You don't want to shock yourself if you can help it. So if you topdeck Marsh Flats instead, you can save yourself a damage and just get a basic. Or if you have Urborg in play and don't care about the white mana, you can just play it and never crack it, and not have to pay 2 life just to have it come into play untapped. The mana base I posted a few posts ago has only one Godless Shrine, and that is awesome.
Can we compile a list of cards that can be countered by Warping Wail? I mean things we're actually liable to encounter. I've only got: Serum Visions, Lava Spike, Living End, Scapeshift, Smallpox? I get that Wail's intended purpose is removal, but is it good enough to also bill as disruption?
edit: also counters Thoughtseize and IoK!
I don't like the idea of cutting Marsh Flats entirely, but I could appreciate reducing the numbers to 2-3 to accommodate a 1-off Wastes.
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
I don't see the point. Your goal is to consistently get your B/W source on Turn 1-3 online. If you replace all 4 fetches with Cave of Kolios you (and I was running 2 Isolated Chapels that are going to be replaced with Godless Shrines) you still have that same chance. If you'd have a fetch in hand, you instead have a Cave which gives you all 3 "colors" you need. If you draw a natural godless shrine you have that as well. I don't think we need Fetches in this deck.
I like fetches for a two main reasons. First, they allow you to greatly improve the chance that you have accces to an early basic land when trying to play around Blood Moon. This is huge and enough of a reason by itself. Second, they enable you to play fewer copies of Godless Shrine, which is good because past the first one, each Godless Shrine afterwards is an awful topdeck. You don't want to shock yourself if you can help it. So if you topdeck Marsh Flats instead, you can save yourself a damage and just get a basic. Or if you have Urborg in play and don't care about the white mana, you can just play it and never crack it, and not have to pay 2 life just to have it come into play untapped. The mana base I posted a few posts ago has only one Godless Shrine, and that is awesome.
I have never had a game where a Blood Moon really mattered against us. If fetches could get Waste as well then I'd agree with you. As it is, I think Blood Moon is a nice stall tactic but in the end we can still get to our mana and play most of our spells. Couple that with all the discard we run.. I just don't think they are as necessary as having more < > mana available to us. I find plenty of opportunities to play my shocks tapped if I wanted to and if you NEED it untapped.. it's worth the 2 life. It also makes a T1 Thoughtseize cost 3 life vs 5 and you can still have access to both colors if you need to play a path before you draw a non-pain source. Fetches are great in mana hungry decks that require dual lands to operate more effectively. The problem with our deck is colorless is one of those colors and you can't fetch it.
Can we compile a list of cards that can be countered by Warping Wail? I mean things we're actually liable to encounter. I've only got: Serum Visions, Lava Spike, Living End, Scapeshift, Smallpox? I get that Wail's intended purpose is removal, but is it good enough to also bill as disruption?
edit: also counters Thoughtseize and IoK!
It counters non Supreme Verdict wrath effects, Tooth and Nail, Ancient Stirrings, Sylvan Scrying, Day's Undoing, Search for Tomorrow, Maelstrom Pulse, Lingering Souls, Spectral Possession, Bring to Light... those are off the top of my head of Sorceries that sometimes see modern play.. in addition to all that you mentioned (and essentially all T1 discard spells)
This deck looks like it plays a lot like Jund. Does it? I'm after a deck that plays like Jund, but isn't Jund (long story short, Jund isn't how it use to be when I started Modern). I'm looking to get into the deck, and a midrange strategy like Jund would be great.
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
This deck looks like it plays a lot like Jund. Does it? I'm after a deck that plays like Jund, but isn't Jund (long story short, Jund isn't how it use to be when I started Modern). I'm looking to get into the deck, and a midrange strategy like Jund would be great.
It's just like Jund except with better top end. You see the decklists - discard, removal, and undercosted threats, just like it used to be.
It's just like Jund except you can play it better because you have money left over to buy snacks, keeping your blood sugar up and helping you concentrate.
Costs 4,fragile ,doesn't affect the board, can be bolted, does not get cost reductions, not an Eldrazi. I mean lots of reasons why it's not considered.
Multiple reasons.
1. Most of the creatures don't actually end up costing a lot. Temples are 2 for each of our dudes, Eyes are pseudo 2, sometimes 3, etc. The "ramp" it gives isn't super needed.
2. It's a 4 mana card that doesn't provide enough value for what it does. It will always cost 4 mana(and 4 straight mana sources), as it is not a colorless Eldrazi spell. It dies to the Lightning Bolt most of the creatures in the deck already avoid, and it provides no benefit upon casting if it's countered(The only creature in the pre-OGW base that doesn't is Wasteland Strangler who is cheaper).
This deck looks like it plays a lot like Jund. Does it? I'm after a deck that plays like Jund, but isn't Jund (long story short, Jund isn't how it use to be when I started Modern). I'm looking to get into the deck, and a midrange strategy like Jund would be great.
It's just like Jund except with better top end. You see the decklists - discard, removal, and undercosted threats, just like it used to be.
Alright you are getting me excited for this deck. I might actually pay the money for 3 Eye of Ugins even though it's stupidly at $30 now.
It's just like Jund except you can play it better because you have money left over to buy snacks, keeping your blood sugar up and helping you concentrate.
This made me laugh. I hate Tarmogoyf as a creature.
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
This deck looks like it plays a lot like Jund. Does it? I'm after a deck that plays like Jund, but isn't Jund (long story short, Jund isn't how it use to be when I started Modern). I'm looking to get into the deck, and a midrange strategy like Jund would be great.
It's just like Jund except with better top end. You see the decklists - discard, removal, and undercosted threats, just like it used to be.
Alright you are getting me excited for this deck. I might actually pay the money for 3 Eye of Ugins even though it's stupidly at $30 now.
It's just like Jund except you can play it better because you have money left over to buy snacks, keeping your blood sugar up and helping you concentrate.
This made me laugh. I hate Tarmogoyf as a creature.
I'd say this variant is closer to Junk than Jund (primarily because of Path and Lingering Souls) but yeah it plays like a midrange deck should and has a ridiculous end game that is miles better. The best part of this deck is beating up on those Goyf decks because with all the MB GY hate he is usually very very small and our creatures are very very large/many.
I've said it before, we're like the NicFit of modern: disrupt, ramp, play bomb. Only instead of SDT we have Relic
Let's talk practically, what are some of the cards in OGW that you might consider as part of a potential core? I.e. what new cards should I worry about gathering before they increase by 500%?
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On another note: I am going to try split of 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Inquisition of Kozilek, and 2x Duress mainboard. IoK is bad against Twin, Tron, and Scapeshift; while Thoughseize is bad against Burn; and Duress is bad against Zoo, Merfolk, CoCo decks, etc. This way I have four solid disruption spells against any deck I might see, with two cards that are easy cuts for boarding out in G2/3.
I want to point out the synergy between Vault and Eye, which I forgot to spell out above: If both are on the field then we have options for our mana sinks during an opponent's turn; and if we have cards in hand, then they have to assume we might be holding spot removal as well.
Eight open lands on the field, including an Eye and a Vault, is GREAT place to be during an opponent's turn.
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
This is 14/13/11 B/W/C count, which is good if your only C card is Thought-Knot Seer.
I don't see the point. Your goal is to consistently get your B/W source on Turn 1-3 online. If you replace all 4 fetches with Cave of Kolios you (and I was running 2 Isolated Chapels that are going to be replaced with Godless Shrines) you still have that same chance. If you'd have a fetch in hand, you instead have a Cave which gives you all 3 "colors" you need. If you draw a natural godless shrine you have that as well. I don't think we need Fetches in this deck.
edit: also counters Thoughtseize and IoK!
I have never had a game where a Blood Moon really mattered against us. If fetches could get Waste as well then I'd agree with you. As it is, I think Blood Moon is a nice stall tactic but in the end we can still get to our mana and play most of our spells. Couple that with all the discard we run.. I just don't think they are as necessary as having more < > mana available to us. I find plenty of opportunities to play my shocks tapped if I wanted to and if you NEED it untapped.. it's worth the 2 life. It also makes a T1 Thoughtseize cost 3 life vs 5 and you can still have access to both colors if you need to play a path before you draw a non-pain source. Fetches are great in mana hungry decks that require dual lands to operate more effectively. The problem with our deck is colorless is one of those colors and you can't fetch it.
It counters non Supreme Verdict wrath effects, Tooth and Nail, Ancient Stirrings, Sylvan Scrying, Day's Undoing, Search for Tomorrow, Maelstrom Pulse, Lingering Souls, Spectral Possession, Bring to Light... those are off the top of my head of Sorceries that sometimes see modern play.. in addition to all that you mentioned (and essentially all T1 discard spells)
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Am I actually the first person to think of this idea?
1. Most of the creatures don't actually end up costing a lot. Temples are 2 for each of our dudes, Eyes are pseudo 2, sometimes 3, etc. The "ramp" it gives isn't super needed.
2. It's a 4 mana card that doesn't provide enough value for what it does. It will always cost 4 mana(and 4 straight mana sources), as it is not a colorless Eldrazi spell. It dies to the Lightning Bolt most of the creatures in the deck already avoid, and it provides no benefit upon casting if it's countered(The only creature in the pre-OGW base that doesn't is Wasteland Strangler who is cheaper).
Standard
RWUAmerica TempoUWR
& More...
Modern
URXGrixis/Tarmo/Tempo TwinURX
Alright you are getting me excited for this deck. I might actually pay the money for 3 Eye of Ugins even though it's stupidly at $30 now.
This made me laugh. I hate Tarmogoyf as a creature.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
I'd say this variant is closer to Junk than Jund (primarily because of Path and Lingering Souls) but yeah it plays like a midrange deck should and has a ridiculous end game that is miles better. The best part of this deck is beating up on those Goyf decks because with all the MB GY hate he is usually very very small and our creatures are very very large/many.
Let's talk practically, what are some of the cards in OGW that you might consider as part of a potential core? I.e. what new cards should I worry about gathering before they increase by 500%?