Unsure how needed the map is. The lingering souls puts this deck over the top. The eye of ugin is such a strong card but obviously sucks in multiples. I think its worth it because for a few reasons:
1. With three Eyes I'm running 24 lands. So that's 21 real lands to cast my non-eldrazi spells. These are 4 lingering souls, 1 slaughter pact, 2 go for throats, and single mana spells. 21 lands for those spells should be fine.
2. If I draw multiple that's fine, it's as if I drew two normal lands that make one mana each. Plus it's not unlikely the Eye is the first land my opponent's want to kill off with Ghost Quarter or Tect Edge.
For Tron Pithing needle seems really good, as does Mindcensor. I've actually been having a lot of success w/ GQ and and Exteripate[/card/Surgical Extraction. It's not even really card disadvantage because you take out their 4 tron lands. Another option is stony silence out of the board, we probably want this for affinity anyway, and turning off our own relics isn't a huge deal since tron generally doesn't use it's gy as much (barring academy ruins recursion which we still have GQ/Extirpate for) I have only had the chance to play the monoU variant so far but I have found MD GQ to be enough.
Personal card preference: I don't think this variant needs mindstone or expedition map since we are slower and more controlling than monoB and BR. It may be a meta call but I think we can better use that spot for spot removal or discard.
@VrynsMindMage: Tormod's is probably ok, but the big benefit of relic is that it cantrips. Also exiling everyone's yard is a good way to shrink Goyfs.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
For Tron Pithing needle seems really good, as does Mindcensor. I've actually been having a lot of success w/ GQ and and Exteripate[/card/Surgical Extraction. It's not even really card disadvantage because you take out their 4 tron lands. Another option is stony silence out of the board, we probably want this for affinity anyway, and turning off our own relics isn't a huge deal since tron generally doesn't use it's gy as much (barring academy ruins recursion which we still have GQ/Extirpate for) I have only had the chance to play the monoU variant so far but I have found MD GQ to be enough.
Personal card preference: I don't think this variant needs mindstone or expedition map since we are slower and more controlling than monoB and BR. It may be a meta call but I think we can better use that spot for spot removal or discard.
@VrynsMindMage: Tormod's is probably ok, but the big benefit of relic is that it cantrips. Also exiling everyone's yard is a good way to shrink Goyfs.
As you said against tron probably the best and faster way to deal with it is Ghost Quarter + a grave/library exiler like Surgical Extraction/Extirpate. This play just slows them down so you can develop your game faster than they could recover. Not counting that your Oblivion Sower will just ramp 4 mana if you steal the lands you Extirpated. If they assemble tron you will have serious problem trying to deal with Karn Liberated/Oblivion Stone and their own Eye of Ugin.
Love it! I think the cards on display give a good picture of what the BW version is all about.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
For Tron Pithing needle seems really good, as does Mindcensor. I've actually been having a lot of success w/ GQ and and Exteripate[/card/Surgical Extraction. It's not even really card disadvantage because you take out their 4 tron lands. Another option is stony silence out of the board, we probably want this for affinity anyway, and turning off our own relics isn't a huge deal since tron generally doesn't use it's gy as much (barring academy ruins recursion which we still have GQ/Extirpate for) I have only had the chance to play the monoU variant so far but I have found MD GQ to be enough.
curiously, for stony silence, do you board out relics or keep them in?\
Depends on the matchup. Against Tron, we don't need the gy hate and there aren't many strangler targets (e.g. we don't need early exile as much) so I tend to board out all the relics. Against affinity, where you have a lot of good strangler targets, I tend to leave in 1-2 relic as an additional exile source. Reducing the number means you can potentially draw it early, and play and pop before Stony comes down. This also makes it so that if you draw Stony first you've reduced your chances of drawing a dead card.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Depends on the matchup. Against Tron, we don't need the gy hate and there aren't many strangler targets (e.g. we don't need early exile as much) so I tend to board out all the relics. Against affinity, where you have a lot of good strangler targets, I tend to leave in 1-2 relic as an additional exile source. Reducing the number means you can potentially draw it early, and play and pop before Stony comes down. This also makes it so that if you draw Stony first you've reduced your chances of drawing a dead card.
if you don't leave relic in, wouldn't it be detrimental to blight herder not having enough processing targets?
if you don't leave relic in, wouldn't it be detrimental to blight herder not having enough processing targets?
Between Path, Sculler, Extirpate, O-Ring, and O-Sower in the mid to late game you generally have more than enough things exiled to feed herder. A single extirpate or surgical extraction is enough to set up a herder on its' own.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Thanks for the clarification, MD ghost quarter works really well i feel you can get jam 25 lands no problem if you're running 1-2 maps, with ghost quarter, bojuka bog and Miren, the Moaning Well to tutor up in some of the worse match ups isn't the worst in the world. Sculler is powerful I'll have to test it out in paper to see how often BW on turn 2 is a problem. I like Celestial Purge as a 2 of in the board it pulls overtime in twin and Jund. I've begun to move away from MD surgical in favor of maps and cutting my cantrip artifacts down to 4 because of the MD PtE and Bog.
Really enjoyed your stream the other night with the deck. After having played and watched this on multiple streams, I think the match up against Ad Nauseam was worse in theory than in practice and paper, same can be said for the merfolk match up.
I think if you run a utility land suite of MD ghost quarter, Bojuka Bog & Miren, the moaning well, map is well positioned. Souls does in fact put this deck over the top PtE is great but the reason you run white is for souls and sideboard options. I too have moved up to 3 eye for the same reasons you state in addition to having a Urborg out and an eye in play if need be you can always "mox opal" it.
if budget reasons on modo wasn't an issue what would you're SB look right? Here is my current build and SB.
Hi guys! I am currently working with this:
Lands 25(not sure to run 24 or 25, what's your opinion on this?)
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter (I like 2, because I also like the surgical extraction/extirpate in the MD)
3 Caves of Koilos (Also slightly in preparation for the new set)
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Feels too good to pass up on with 3 Eye's)
4/5 land slots left (split between marsh flats/godless shrine so far, how is Bojuka Bog and Miren, the Moaning Well working for you?)
Creatures 13(standard 4+4+4+1)
Spells 22
4 Lingering Souls
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Path to Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 All is Dust
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 open (going between Slaughter Pact or perhaps cut one land and run 2 expedition map with the bojuka bog and miren, the moaning well?)
I can see the appeal of Brain maggot (prefer this over sculler) but not sure how to make room for them. Sideboard has been changing a lot since I'm not sure about the meta in my area atm.
lately I've been on 25 because of 3 man lands & 3 utility because if you flood out it isn't the worst because of Eye and man lands. Miren has worked out well, occasionally you'll be in a position with a resolved blight herder or sower at 3-4 life and your opponent on the top deck where you're dead to a burn spell and you can move beyond that by sacing and keeping board with 3 1/1s, its as if you hit your SB rest for the weary.
I feel the core of the deck is quickly coming together; 13 creatures as you've listed, 4 PtE, 4 Souls, 4 Relic, 3 IoK 2 TS and the rest is open depending on how you want to build your mana base and if you want to be on the map plan.
Of course the main draw for relic is that it cantrips but shrinking goyfs comes up occasionally and it's nice to have the ability to do so.
@Beautox: a few questions, how good/reliable have manlsnds and the third eye been? I'm leery about reducing my number of basics because of how much blood moon i see, but they seem like good utility. Also, i remember you were also testing w/ Utter End, would you say it is better than o-ring? Worse? A mix should be played? Lastly, I'm curious as to why you want to drop the extirpate package, do you just prefer the map angle and there's only so much space? Decklist and sb look good btw, i agree that the core list is really starting to take form
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
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List: http://puu.sh/m659r/9780047eda.jpg
Unsure how needed the map is. The lingering souls puts this deck over the top. The eye of ugin is such a strong card but obviously sucks in multiples. I think its worth it because for a few reasons:
1. With three Eyes I'm running 24 lands. So that's 21 real lands to cast my non-eldrazi spells. These are 4 lingering souls, 1 slaughter pact, 2 go for throats, and single mana spells. 21 lands for those spells should be fine.
2. If I draw multiple that's fine, it's as if I drew two normal lands that make one mana each. Plus it's not unlikely the Eye is the first land my opponent's want to kill off with Ghost Quarter or Tect Edge.
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Caves of Kolios
3 Godless Shrine
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Shambling Vent
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Spellskite
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
4 Oblivion Sower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
1 Expedition Map
1 Mind Stone
4 Lingering Souls
1 Oblivion Ring
1 All is Dust
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Celestial Purge
1 Wrath of God
2 Rest for the Weary
1 Ruin Processor
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Vampiric Link
My spin at the deck. I beat Jund 6-0 today. But how do we beat tron?
I'm thinking of Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker
I don't have the most experience, so if it's not a good choice, could someone explain why?
Aven Mindcensor is super underrated. I highly recommend it against Tron.
Personal card preference: I don't think this variant needs mindstone or expedition map since we are slower and more controlling than monoB and BR. It may be a meta call but I think we can better use that spot for spot removal or discard.
@VrynsMindMage: Tormod's is probably ok, but the big benefit of relic is that it cantrips. Also exiling everyone's yard is a good way to shrink Goyfs.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
As you said against tron probably the best and faster way to deal with it is Ghost Quarter + a grave/library exiler like Surgical Extraction/Extirpate. This play just slows them down so you can develop your game faster than they could recover. Not counting that your Oblivion Sower will just ramp 4 mana if you steal the lands you Extirpated. If they assemble tron you will have serious problem trying to deal with Karn Liberated/Oblivion Stone and their own Eye of Ugin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
curiously, for stony silence, do you board out relics or keep them in?\
WBGCompany
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
if you don't leave relic in, wouldn't it be detrimental to blight herder not having enough processing targets?
WBGCompany
Between Path, Sculler, Extirpate, O-Ring, and O-Sower in the mid to late game you generally have more than enough things exiled to feed herder. A single extirpate or surgical extraction is enough to set up a herder on its' own.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Thanks for the tip; I didn't even think about needing to get rid of my own yard because of Goyfs.
I think if you run a utility land suite of MD ghost quarter, Bojuka Bog & Miren, the moaning well, map is well positioned. Souls does in fact put this deck over the top PtE is great but the reason you run white is for souls and sideboard options. I too have moved up to 3 eye for the same reasons you state in addition to having a Urborg out and an eye in play if need be you can always "mox opal" it.
if budget reasons on modo wasn't an issue what would you're SB look right? Here is my current build and SB.
2 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Shambling Vent
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
4 Oblivion Sower
4 Blight Herder
4 Wasteland Strangler
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant 7
4 Path to Exile
2 Go For the Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
Sorcery 9
4 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts 6
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Expedition Map
2 Rest for the Weary
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Stony Silence
1 Revoke Existence
1 Disenchant
2 Celestial Purge
2 Duress
2 Spellskite
1 Ratchet Bomb
Lands 25(not sure to run 24 or 25, what's your opinion on this?)
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter (I like 2, because I also like the surgical extraction/extirpate in the MD)
3 Caves of Koilos (Also slightly in preparation for the new set)
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Feels too good to pass up on with 3 Eye's)
4/5 land slots left (split between marsh flats/godless shrine so far, how is Bojuka Bog and Miren, the Moaning Well working for you?)
Creatures 13(standard 4+4+4+1)
Spells 22
4 Lingering Souls
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Path to Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 All is Dust
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 open (going between Slaughter Pact or perhaps cut one land and run 2 expedition map with the bojuka bog and miren, the moaning well?)
I can see the appeal of Brain maggot (prefer this over sculler) but not sure how to make room for them. Sideboard has been changing a lot since I'm not sure about the meta in my area atm.
I feel the core of the deck is quickly coming together; 13 creatures as you've listed, 4 PtE, 4 Souls, 4 Relic, 3 IoK 2 TS and the rest is open depending on how you want to build your mana base and if you want to be on the map plan.
@Beautox: a few questions, how good/reliable have manlsnds and the third eye been? I'm leery about reducing my number of basics because of how much blood moon i see, but they seem like good utility. Also, i remember you were also testing w/ Utter End, would you say it is better than o-ring? Worse? A mix should be played? Lastly, I'm curious as to why you want to drop the extirpate package, do you just prefer the map angle and there's only so much space? Decklist and sb look good btw, i agree that the core list is really starting to take form
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"