What do you think? seems pretty fun^^
Could try to replace Tarmo with Hooting Mandrills for trample and see if it could be easier to cast on Abbot.
More consistent than the Grixis version found on this forum?
I really want to make this deck, but with no goyfs or enemy fetches I've been pondering an alternative. One option is to go jeskai; I have one snapcaster, so the other slots could go to seeker of the way to max out on prowess. White gives us path, definitely an improvement over snag. Rancor could be distortion strike, which would synergize with my plan to replace goyf with kiln fiend. Nonbo with bauble, but otherwise very powerful:
4 fiend
4 swiftspear
4 abbot
3 seeker
1 snapcaster
4 bauble
4 bolt
4 serum visions
2 distortion strike
2 izzet charm
4 path
2 remand
4 probe
4 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
2 island
2 mountain
3 steam vents
1 sacred foundry
1 hallowed fountain
1 gemstone mine
Not necessarily budget, just a variation with the same game plan. In fact the prowess/pseudo prowess synergy is even higher. Mutagenic growth or stubborn denial could be tasty too. Thoughts?
The problem when you rely to much on prowess, is removals and blockers ... you loose to many card on a single well placed removal or a flashed/block Snap or just opponent board presence. Yes, he is playing Swiftspear and Abbot, but he does not rely only on it. That's why he is playing Rancor, this make +3/trample on a Swiftspear, that's really strong on turn 2 and later the opponent will have to block and it's hard for him to do it without taking any damage. The only replacement i could see for Goyf here is Hooting Mandrils. G, 4/4, trample, all good.
Your deck looks more like a slowest version of Shotgun elemental. You do not need white. Seeker is not an aggro card.
Trevor Holmes (of Modern Nexus) did a long work-up on the deck (http://modernnexus.com/evolving-temur-prowess/), came to some interesting conclusions. He suggested that the deck wants 3.5 snapcasters, which I generally agree with, based on my limited experience. Three snapcasters feels light on value, four snapcasters feels curve-clogging, so we're in a tough spot on this particular question. He also suggested that the deck needs 18 creatures (probably to maintain sufficient threat density against midrange/control/grindy attrition decks). This begs some fundamental questions:
- If we're going to run more than 16 creatures, what should the 17th or 18th creatures be?
- The deck relies on prowess (fundamentally, its a "grow" tempo deck) and therefore functions well on sorcery speed. Like every other tempo deck, it would benefit from good EARLY threats. We don't run enough instants/sorceries to run Delver. What other 1-drop options are there?
I find it criminal that this deck is not being played and developed. It's a great deck and deserves attention. As soon as I can buy the cards on mtgo, I am going to be testing the following list. Minor changes include Simic Charm for Izzet Charm - sweetness from the Monkey Grow thread which really shines in these kinds of strategies - and shaving the 18th land for Traverse the Ulvenwald, which increases the threat count whilst simultaneously increasing the non-creature count for prowess, and can grab a land if required. Another couple in the board allow us to play silver bullets for tougher matchups like Jund. I think something like this:
Obviously the silver bullet package would have to be geared to whatever metagame you're facing, but it looks potentially powerful on paper, and I really want to test it. Access to 5 Spellskites vs burn sounds hilarious, for example, especially when you don't have to lower your non-creature count.
I'm not going to have the cards for a while though as I'm on the process of selling my paper collection to buy in online, as there's no one local to play with regularly :(. So if anyone else is trying something similar, please let me know how your testing goes.
Edit: With twin out of the picture, maybe spellskites aren't so good. Getting revelry'd would hurt. Still fine against bogles and ok against burn if protected though. Point is the TTU board gives us options. Maybe even TITI - morphing into control postboard. A cheap creature with etb/sac damage trigger such as Mogg Fanatic could serve as tutorable removal. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, but this just seems so sweet. My inner Johnny is excited.
I find it criminal that this deck is not being played and developed. It's a great deck and deserves attention. As soon as I can buy the cards on mtgo, I am going to be testing the following list. Minor changes include Simic Charm for Izzet Charm - sweetness from the Monkey Grow thread which really shines in these kinds of strategies - and shaving the 18th land for Traverse the Ulvenwald, which increases the threat count whilst simultaneously increasing the non-creature count for prowess, and can grab a land if required. Another couple in the board allow us to play silver bullets for tougher matchups like Jund. I think something like this:
Obviously the silver bullet package would have to be geared to whatever metagame you're facing, but it looks potentially powerful on paper, and I really want to test it. Access to 5 Spellskites vs burn sounds hilarious, for example, especially when you don't have to lower your non-creature count.
I'm not going to have the cards for a while though as I'm on the process of selling my paper collection to buy in online, as there's no one local to play with regularly :(. So if anyone else is trying something similar, please let me know how your testing goes.
Edit: With twin out of the picture, maybe spellskites aren't so good. Getting revelry'd would hurt. Still fine against bogles and ok against burn if protected though. Point is the TTU board gives us options. Maybe even TITI - morphing into control postboard. Maybe I'm getting a head of myself a little, but my inner Johnny is excited.
Seems sick and I LOVED this deck when Chapin was doing work with it. I like the idea of Traverse, but I think a better enabler than Seal of Fire is Tarfire. Grows goyf, super turbos out delirium, less investment for the same damage at instant speed. Seems like all upside!
Yeah I considered Tarfire, as have some others, but I think the general consensus is that it isn't as good to hit off of Abbott. You can hit Seal when there are no targets in play and just have it sit there waiting for a creature, which messes with your opponent's plans. That said, Tarfire could probably replace a Vapor Snag in my build since I have extra bounce effects from the Simic Charms. I'll make that change.
And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of trying TITI in the board for grindier matchups. Being able to tutor it up and flip it quickly could just end games on the spot. Not necessarily what you want early game though, when you're tying to be aggressive.
Looks interesting, how is stubborn denial performing for you? Better than Remand? I'm a little curious as to how important it is to make sure very card in the main is castable with Abbot.
How are the TtUs working out main? I wasn't sure whether to go deep on that plan with the maindeck. Seems viable though, and it's nice to see someone else playing them. With 3 in the 75, have you tried more silver bullets in the side, or did the less narrow spells just work better?
Do you miss Probe at all? Works well with TtU, letting you know which threat is most appropiate.
Edit: I like Invasive Surgery - missed that one. For Scapeshift?
Ah ok. I'm not sold on stubborn denial in this list. I think it's great in monkey grow, where you have 8 4+ power threats to turn it on, but I imagine it would be underwhelming here. If you want a way to protect your threats while keeping your options open, I believe Simic charm to be stellar. Just a few of its applications:
Counter removal and abilities that target your permanents (including lands).
Pump a creature in combat to remove a threat (win goyf wars)
Pump an unblocked attacker for 3+prowess to the face (risky, but safer with probe)
Bounce an opponent's creature for tempo
Bounce your own for value or to save from a wrath
If you want hard counters maybe Deprive is worth checking out? In a 17 land list, the drawback isn't too noticeable. I personally don't think I want counters that nonbo with Abbot in the main, so I'll be keeping Remand for now.
I just want to be aggressive and consistent game 1, which I why I'm also holding back on TtU. The first one is great, letting us shave a land and up the threat count. After that they seem a little slow for game one. I really want to bring them in against grindy decks and decks where bullets help win games.
Thought scour could be correct when deep on Traverse, but I don't feel like we need it.
The graveyard fills up quickly without it, and the information from Probe is invaluable in some matchups. It's also a free hit from Abbot. Just seems great in this deck. And since I'm playing with Simic charm, it lets me know when I can be a little more greedy with the mode I pick. Obviously it's a liability against burn, but I think the general upside is worth it.
Invasive surgery looks worth trying and I'll definitely be checking it out.
All in all I'm excited to see where this deck ends up in a few months time and hopefully to see a few players picking it up and giving it a spin.
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What do you think? seems pretty fun^^
Could try to replace Tarmo with Hooting Mandrills for trample and see if it could be easier to cast on Abbot.
More consistent than the Grixis version found on this forum?
EDIT: For context, this is what I had thrown together. It was my Delver-less UR Delver deck, with Atarka's Command
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
3 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
Spells
4 Lava Spike
2 Shard Volley
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Remand
2 Vapor Snag
1 Dispel
4 Atarka's Command
Spirits
4 fiend
4 swiftspear
4 abbot
3 seeker
1 snapcaster
4 bauble
4 bolt
4 serum visions
2 distortion strike
2 izzet charm
4 path
2 remand
4 probe
4 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
2 island
2 mountain
3 steam vents
1 sacred foundry
1 hallowed fountain
1 gemstone mine
Not necessarily budget, just a variation with the same game plan. In fact the prowess/pseudo prowess synergy is even higher. Mutagenic growth or stubborn denial could be tasty too. Thoughts?
Your deck looks more like a slowest version of Shotgun elemental. You do not need white. Seeker is not an aggro card.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Vapor Snag
1 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Rancor
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
Curve:
0: 26
1: 20
2: 14
Trevor Holmes (of Modern Nexus) did a long work-up on the deck (http://modernnexus.com/evolving-temur-prowess/), came to some interesting conclusions. He suggested that the deck wants 3.5 snapcasters, which I generally agree with, based on my limited experience. Three snapcasters feels light on value, four snapcasters feels curve-clogging, so we're in a tough spot on this particular question. He also suggested that the deck needs 18 creatures (probably to maintain sufficient threat density against midrange/control/grindy attrition decks). This begs some fundamental questions:
- If we're going to run more than 16 creatures, what should the 17th or 18th creatures be?
- The deck relies on prowess (fundamentally, its a "grow" tempo deck) and therefore functions well on sorcery speed. Like every other tempo deck, it would benefit from good EARLY threats. We don't run enough instants/sorceries to run Delver. What other 1-drop options are there?
Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Kird Ape, Noble Hierarch, Vexing Devil, Cosi's Trickster(?), Experiment One(?), Gladecover Scout(?)
Holmes recommended Goblin Guide, which is what I'm currently running, but I'm wondering if Vexing Devil wouldn't be a better fit?
Otherwise, I've been super impressed by Rancor, and equally unimpressed with Izzet Charm. Maindeck list reflects the corresponding subsitutions.
I'm betting this deck makes Tier 2 by the next pro tour.
4 Abbott of Keral Keep
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (9)
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Artifact (4)
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instant (12)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Vapor Snag
2 Remand
2 Simic Charm
1 Tarfire
2 Rancor
1 Seal of Fire
Land (17)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Spellskite
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Natural State
2 Dispel
2 Deprive
Obviously the silver bullet package would have to be geared to whatever metagame you're facing, but it looks potentially powerful on paper, and I really want to test it. Access to 5 Spellskites vs burn sounds hilarious, for example, especially when you don't have to lower your non-creature count.
I'm not going to have the cards for a while though as I'm on the process of selling my paper collection to buy in online, as there's no one local to play with regularly :(. So if anyone else is trying something similar, please let me know how your testing goes.
Edit: With twin out of the picture, maybe spellskites aren't so good. Getting revelry'd would hurt. Still fine against bogles and ok against burn if protected though. Point is the TTU board gives us options. Maybe even TITI - morphing into control postboard. A cheap creature with etb/sac damage trigger such as Mogg Fanatic could serve as tutorable removal. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, but this just seems so sweet. My inner Johnny is excited.
Seems sick and I LOVED this deck when Chapin was doing work with it. I like the idea of Traverse, but I think a better enabler than Seal of Fire is Tarfire. Grows goyf, super turbos out delirium, less investment for the same damage at instant speed. Seems like all upside!
And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of trying TITI in the board for grindier matchups. Being able to tutor it up and flip it quickly could just end games on the spot. Not necessarily what you want early game though, when you're tying to be aggressive.
Might try a sideboard like this to begin with.
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Thing in the Ice
1 Spellskite
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Natural State
1 Send to Sleep
1 Pyroclasm
2 Dispel
2 Deprive
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Dodecapod
1 Sulfur Elemental
Looks interesting, how is stubborn denial performing for you? Better than Remand? I'm a little curious as to how important it is to make sure very card in the main is castable with Abbot.
How are the TtUs working out main? I wasn't sure whether to go deep on that plan with the maindeck. Seems viable though, and it's nice to see someone else playing them. With 3 in the 75, have you tried more silver bullets in the side, or did the less narrow spells just work better?
Do you miss Probe at all? Works well with TtU, letting you know which threat is most appropiate.
Edit: I like Invasive Surgery - missed that one. For Scapeshift?
Counter removal and abilities that target your permanents (including lands).
Pump a creature in combat to remove a threat (win goyf wars)
Pump an unblocked attacker for 3+prowess to the face (risky, but safer with probe)
Bounce an opponent's creature for tempo
Bounce your own for value or to save from a wrath
If you want hard counters maybe Deprive is worth checking out? In a 17 land list, the drawback isn't too noticeable. I personally don't think I want counters that nonbo with Abbot in the main, so I'll be keeping Remand for now.
I just want to be aggressive and consistent game 1, which I why I'm also holding back on TtU. The first one is great, letting us shave a land and up the threat count. After that they seem a little slow for game one. I really want to bring them in against grindy decks and decks where bullets help win games.
Thought scour could be correct when deep on Traverse, but I don't feel like we need it.
The graveyard fills up quickly without it, and the information from Probe is invaluable in some matchups. It's also a free hit from Abbot. Just seems great in this deck. And since I'm playing with Simic charm, it lets me know when I can be a little more greedy with the mode I pick. Obviously it's a liability against burn, but I think the general upside is worth it.
Invasive surgery looks worth trying and I'll definitely be checking it out.
All in all I'm excited to see where this deck ends up in a few months time and hopefully to see a few players picking it up and giving it a spin.