and didn't think to try Bant charm (which I am not sure is good enough)
I don't think it is either. Seems a little slow and clunky. I'd really want to be playing Knight or Retreat with those 3 mana. I am enjoying all the information in this thread.
What would you all suggest to replace Goyf in a more budget minded deck? Thanks.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
So one comment on some of these ideas -- in many ways it is bad to grab a bunch of lands out of your deck before playing Knight, but on the same token Coralhelm generates a lot of value if you hit your land drops (and you can straight up fill your yard with lands au natural sometimes). Because of the scry from hitting your land drops (or tapping dudes) just grabbing 3 lands for one card like with Gift of Estates can net a ton of value with Coralhelm.
Wayfarer, specifically is only cool because of the interaction with Knight -- you can, if you search while you have a knight trigger on the stack, be down one land and yet end at parity, getting a free wayfarer activation out of the deal. If you generate multiple untaps or mana off of fetchlands you can net even more wayfarer activations. (He is pretty cool with Coralhelm on his own, since you can get double or even triple activations on occasion by grabbing a fetchland)
and didn't think to try Bant charm (which I am not sure is good enough)
I don't think it is either. Seems a little slow and clunky. I'd really want to be playing Knight or Retreat with those 3 mana. I am enjoying all the information in this thread.
What would you all suggest to replace Goyf in a more budget minded deck? Thanks.
While we can't discuss budget options in here, a lot of discussion has gone on over whether Voice or Goyf is best in the 2-drop slot, but two other solid two-drops worth considering imho - Thalia and Anafenza. Fenza puts some serious constraints on the manabase, but she's super, super good with Glen Elendra and Kitchen Finks, if you choose to go the value route.
I've been experimenting with a version that runs a lot of 2-drops (Skite, anafenza, thalia, voice) and Ojutai's Command as a value engine, and it's pretty neat if not anywhere near primetime:
this list looks like it has potential. Realms Uncharted is hilarious and I would love to brew with it. I also like the looks of Ojutai's Command in the value based deck.
With all this talk of incorporating retreat to coralhelm into zoo, I honestly am wondering whether incorporating thassa, god of the sea, is almost a better idea. You don't get an instant win with knight, but you get pretty close with unblockable Knights and geists. You get guaranteed scry 1 each turn instead of being dependent on landfall. You can also grab it off of coco. I realize this is obviously not in the nature of what this thread is trying to do (knight combo), but Im pretty sure that posting this in the zoo thread wouldn't get much traction. Is it really that crazy?
and didn't think to try Bant charm (which I am not sure is good enough)
I don't think it is either. Seems a little slow and clunky. I'd really want to be playing Knight or Retreat with those 3 mana. I am enjoying all the information in this thread.
What would you all suggest to replace Goyf in a more budget minded deck? Thanks.
While we can't discuss budget options in here, a lot of discussion has gone on over whether Voice or Goyf is best in the 2-drop slot, but two other solid two-drops worth considering imho - Thalia and Anafenza. Fenza puts some serious constraints on the manabase, but she's super, super good with Glen Elendra and Kitchen Finks, if you choose to go the value route.
I've been experimenting with a version that runs a lot of 2-drops (Skite, anafenza, thalia, voice) and Ojutai's Command as a value engine, and it's pretty neat if not anywhere near primetime:
Thanks. I think I'd rather go with Anafenza given those choices. I will keep searching as well.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I really think for the deck to be good we need to be looking at leveraging coralhelm for the mid-game. Cast some bigger spells by having a fetchland generate 2 extra mana off of hierarch, leverage some card quality from the scrying, etc.
Pokken, I'm very aligned with this way of thinking and I like a lot of the posts you've been making. I tried some zoo stuff with CoCo but I felt it was just good not broken which is what I'm aiming for. I felt if I wanted to have a more competitive combo deck id rather take my Kiki-Chord deck. I prefer taking things to the longer game, in fact I prefer winning by beating down with resilient threats but having an 'oops i win' combo to get out of jams and being able to interact with the other person.
I've envisioned a deck with this philosophy and heres the thought process behind brewing it. The backbone of the deck is obviously 4 knights and 3-4 retreats and I picked 23 lands because both like lands.
So that leaves us 29 slots to fill. The next most important part of the deck that I feel are unchangeable truths are the ramp and interaction being playsets of paths, hierarchs, and voices.
Thats 42/60 cards. Now I looked at adding those resilient threats I'm so fond of. My favourite pair as a long time pod player and kiki-chord player is the duo of Finks and Resto, Finks gains life, has to be killed twice, or again and again with resto and is almost invincible with a gavony. Resto generally is able to either save guys from removal, rebuy ETB triggers, play the ambush viper, end step for value and overall is a great evasive threat. Playing with resto means there should be some number of proper resto targets as well. so the first card to add in there is eternal witness, the green snapcaster and it also brought me to thinking we have the second coolest persisting creature to rebuy with flickers, Glen elendra. Those additions bring the deck here.
This brings the number up to what I consider a fairly tight 52 in terms of how I want to be playing the deck with the last 8 spots being fairly open. There is a lot of strength here as well for dromokas command to reset both finks and glen elendra. as well as i like the thought of gideon as a fog and extra removal, coralhelm can make any creature a valid target with its tap down. Geist and Courser of kruphix are the next ones to consider, although i feel Geist looses a small bit of its appeal outside of the full-on agro of the zoo shell. Most of the remaining slots i think should be dedicated to the early game, mainly helping fill in the 2 CMC slot to make a nice looking curve. The list I'm playing with now, and by no means is this final, is as such:
Anyways this is what I'm currently testing, would love to hear thoughts and opinions, i think there is a lot of fleshing out to do in a more midrange style.
I don't like leak, pierce probably better? But damn we are on the same page
For sure, me either, haha Its one of those 8 slots. Theyve been remands, and negates and peirces and coiling oracles and wall of omens and scoozes. Ill probably try familiars ruse and deprive (at least it helps land fall) but those are the last 8 spots i dont know what i want to fill with yet
Keep it on the cards, and realize EVERYONE has a valid point, until we see the deck is dead and not good, or it starts to have results to back it up. As much as I dont want to agree with it, the flood gates are open until there because its just theory. As soon as the deck gets actual testing behind it, I can guarantee you a new thread will be made for it, and the talk will start to be more focused.
Ruse might be good with all those value critters. Rusing with almost any of those creatures is a pretty big blowout (except Voice, really). I'd definitely try that out.
I don't like leak, pierce probably better? But damn we are on the same page
For sure, me either, haha Its one of those 8 slots. Theyve been remands, and negates and peirces and coiling oracles and wall of omens and scoozes. Ill probably try familiars ruse and deprive (at least it helps land fall) but those are the last 8 spots i dont know what i want to fill with yet
I really like Negate in those spots personally. Dead against creatures is less annoying than (mostly) dead late game and vs big mana at the moment I think.
Another interaction that is pretty cute (thanks pokken ^) Realms Uncharted + Sakura-Tribe Scout. I haven't tested it out yet but with all of the untapping gear we have, it may work, as it also fuels knight.
I dont know, feels like too much work. Even a Turn 1 play of a Dork still sits uncomfortably with me, if its Hierarch, its got benefits, and there are edge cases, but a whole bunch of stuff just to add value isnt going to get us there.
I like the breakdown from Maty78, I think I'll go through that on my own once I'm done this OT for the day, but I'm not convinced on this other path yet. :]
Harmonic sliver is not a may trigger and we play maindecked enchantments. You do not want to be in the situation where you need to play your second harmonic sliver to win and there're two targets out - coralhelm and a ghostly prison (or similar).
Reclamation sage is the duder of choice there if you're gonna try that
I like the breakdown from Maty78, I think I'll go through that on my own once I'm done this OT for the day, but I'm not convinced on this other path yet. :]
Thanks, it at least helps show why certain cards are included and were the various cards rank in the game plan. If you did decide for familiar's ruse than use reclamation sage over the sliver, hits the same things but has a may clause. Ive played with ruse before though and found it sorta too big of a tempo kill. id rather return a land with deprive than a creature with ruse.
I don't think it is either. Seems a little slow and clunky. I'd really want to be playing Knight or Retreat with those 3 mana. I am enjoying all the information in this thread.
What would you all suggest to replace Goyf in a more budget minded deck? Thanks.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Dudes that Tap
Put land into play
Take advantage of landfalls
Goofy Combo Stuff
Fringe digging + value stuff
So one comment on some of these ideas -- in many ways it is bad to grab a bunch of lands out of your deck before playing Knight, but on the same token Coralhelm generates a lot of value if you hit your land drops (and you can straight up fill your yard with lands au natural sometimes). Because of the scry from hitting your land drops (or tapping dudes) just grabbing 3 lands for one card like with Gift of Estates can net a ton of value with Coralhelm.
Wayfarer, specifically is only cool because of the interaction with Knight -- you can, if you search while you have a knight trigger on the stack, be down one land and yet end at parity, getting a free wayfarer activation out of the deal. If you generate multiple untaps or mana off of fetchlands you can net even more wayfarer activations. (He is pretty cool with Coralhelm on his own, since you can get double or even triple activations on occasion by grabbing a fetchland)
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
While we can't discuss budget options in here, a lot of discussion has gone on over whether Voice or Goyf is best in the 2-drop slot, but two other solid two-drops worth considering imho - Thalia and Anafenza. Fenza puts some serious constraints on the manabase, but she's super, super good with Glen Elendra and Kitchen Finks, if you choose to go the value route.
I've been experimenting with a version that runs a lot of 2-drops (Skite, anafenza, thalia, voice) and Ojutai's Command as a value engine, and it's pretty neat if not anywhere near primetime:
http://deckbox.org/sets/1212204
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
this list looks like it has potential. Realms Uncharted is hilarious and I would love to brew with it. I also like the looks of Ojutai's Command in the value based deck.
I dont think fishfolks will target a sacable land with seas. I mean,i sure as hell wouldnt.
Also, i love dromokas. Its both reactive and proactive.
Yes it prevents removal.
Yes its removal.
Its not the best card but i wouldnt call it "bad".
Unless you have a very specific meta, it's a card that's never dead. So versatile.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/knight-of-the-coralhelm/
Here's a Tappedout list, since it's late and I'm honestly too tired to reformat it. I'm on an extra Birds of paradise, Eternal Witness, and full 4 Voice of Resurgence, though I could see some Scavenging Ooze in the main too.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Thanks. I think I'd rather go with Anafenza given those choices. I will keep searching as well.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Pokken, I'm very aligned with this way of thinking and I like a lot of the posts you've been making. I tried some zoo stuff with CoCo but I felt it was just good not broken which is what I'm aiming for. I felt if I wanted to have a more competitive combo deck id rather take my Kiki-Chord deck. I prefer taking things to the longer game, in fact I prefer winning by beating down with resilient threats but having an 'oops i win' combo to get out of jams and being able to interact with the other person.
I've envisioned a deck with this philosophy and heres the thought process behind brewing it. The backbone of the deck is obviously 4 knights and 3-4 retreats and I picked 23 lands because both like lands.
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 retreat to coralhelm
23 lands
So that leaves us 29 slots to fill. The next most important part of the deck that I feel are unchangeable truths are the ramp and interaction being playsets of paths, hierarchs, and voices.
4 Noble hierarch
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 retreat to coralhelm
Thats 42/60 cards. Now I looked at adding those resilient threats I'm so fond of. My favourite pair as a long time pod player and kiki-chord player is the duo of Finks and Resto, Finks gains life, has to be killed twice, or again and again with resto and is almost invincible with a gavony. Resto generally is able to either save guys from removal, rebuy ETB triggers, play the ambush viper, end step for value and overall is a great evasive threat. Playing with resto means there should be some number of proper resto targets as well. so the first card to add in there is eternal witness, the green snapcaster and it also brought me to thinking we have the second coolest persisting creature to rebuy with flickers, Glen elendra. Those additions bring the deck here.
4 Noble hierarch
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 kitchen finks
2 eternal witness
2 glen elendra archmage
3 restoration angel
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 retreat to coralhelm
23 lands
This brings the number up to what I consider a fairly tight 52 in terms of how I want to be playing the deck with the last 8 spots being fairly open. There is a lot of strength here as well for dromokas command to reset both finks and glen elendra. as well as i like the thought of gideon as a fog and extra removal, coralhelm can make any creature a valid target with its tap down. Geist and Courser of kruphix are the next ones to consider, although i feel Geist looses a small bit of its appeal outside of the full-on agro of the zoo shell. Most of the remaining slots i think should be dedicated to the early game, mainly helping fill in the 2 CMC slot to make a nice looking curve. The list I'm playing with now, and by no means is this final, is as such:
4 Path to exile
2 Dromoka's command
3 Mana leak
1 Gideon Jura
4 retreat to coralhelm
4 Noble hierarch
2 Qasali pridemage
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the reliquary
3 Kitchen finks
2 Eternal witness
2 Glen elendra archmage
3 Restoration angel
Anyways this is what I'm currently testing, would love to hear thoughts and opinions, i think there is a lot of fleshing out to do in a more midrange style.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
For sure, me either, haha Its one of those 8 slots. Theyve been remands, and negates and peirces and coiling oracles and wall of omens and scoozes. Ill probably try familiars ruse and deprive (at least it helps land fall) but those are the last 8 spots i dont know what i want to fill with yet
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I really like Negate in those spots personally. Dead against creatures is less annoying than (mostly) dead late game and vs big mana at the moment I think.
Familiar's Ruse and Meddling Mage along with Phyrexian Revoker. Not to mention all the etb value. I might consider Harmonic Sliver over Qasali Pridemage if ruse were to be the counterspell of choice in this deck. I agree that ruse and Negate are a lot more live than Mana Leak if we are a more midrange than combo deck. I have also considered Voidslime for its versatility, but it is quite expensive
Another interaction that is pretty cute (thanks pokken ^)
Realms Uncharted + Sakura-Tribe Scout. I haven't tested it out yet but with all of the untapping gear we have, it may work, as it also fuels knight.
Any thoughts?
I like the breakdown from Maty78, I think I'll go through that on my own once I'm done this OT for the day, but I'm not convinced on this other path yet. :]
Spirits
Harmonic sliver is not a may trigger and we play maindecked enchantments. You do not want to be in the situation where you need to play your second harmonic sliver to win and there're two targets out - coralhelm and a ghostly prison (or similar).
Reclamation sage is the duder of choice there if you're gonna try that
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Thanks, it at least helps show why certain cards are included and were the various cards rank in the game plan. If you did decide for familiar's ruse than use reclamation sage over the sliver, hits the same things but has a may clause. Ive played with ruse before though and found it sorta too big of a tempo kill. id rather return a land with deprive than a creature with ruse.
Thought I'd add some levity...I haven't kept up with the deck, so please feel free to disregard if this has already come up.