Concept: Bounce your opponents lands and creatures and try to always have them with a near empty board and more cards in hand than you so that the Day's Undoing is more in your favor. Also with all the exiling from the free spells, Undoing is a great way to refill your hand.
Updated with a Shoal's Undoing decklist below as another approach:
Monastery Mentor: With an abundance of free/cheap spells, you can trigger Mentor many times in one turn. Mentor allows you to go wide and overwhelm your opponent on board much like Young Pyromancer does. His casting cost is high for this deck so I've reduced the amount to 3. I think with so many free spells he is safe to cast on turn 3, protect, then Undoing turns later. Delver of Secrets: Cheap and fast when trying to develop a board presence. Meddling Mage: Disruption on a clock, can lock them out of certain spells so after you cast Day's Undoing you have some protection from relevant spells. Myth Realized: New addition that lands earlier than Mentor but shares a vertical "prowess" ability in that he doesn't go wide like Mentor, but he grows/benefits from the same spells. Being an enchantment allows him to stay dormant and grow until you feel safe to activate and attack. In considering sideboard cards like Leyline of Sanctity and Stony Silence, I may run a few copies of Greater Auramancy since it would protect Myth Realized as well.
Shoals Undoing wants to cast free shoals/spells and play like a control deck. While burning the opponent out, really haven't tested, but feel its another angle to take the deck. Will probably try a few matches.
Thoughts?
Support: Disrupting Shoal: Free counterspell, all spells in the deck are blue save for the Baubles and Mentors. You will mostly be trying to interact early with your opponent to counter other counterspells or removal. Gitaxian Probe: Free cantrip, blue spell for Shoal. Boomerang: main target here would be opponents lands. Snapback:Free bounce for creatures. Cavern of Souls: All creatures are Human. Commandeer:New addition that fits the theme quite well. Would love to steal a Karn Liberated with this card!
interesting concept for sure - ive been trying to make UW mentor work with myth realized and day's undoing and stuff like vapor snag. I even gave nivmagus elemental a couple tries as a way to turn gitaxian probes and serum visions into damage when needed (still triggers myth and mentor too!)
Problem as always is breaking the symmetry on day's undoing. vapor snag and disrupting shoal do help but there are a lot of equally fast decks out there where undoing is just a pure gamble where even on t3 you both draw like same # of cards.
Would be cool if this deck works though!
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Yea, this deck tries to cast day undoing before the opponent plays out his initial 7.
So in a scenario where you cast undoing on turn 1 or 2, you've practically emptied your had and redrew 7. Where as your opponent didn't really draw 7, but exchanged their initial hand for 7 new cards. Considering that they kept their hand, they were pleased with it, now you just gave them 7 random cards.
4 foundry is almost certainly too many tho, they're useless in multiples and you're drawing tonnes of cards - I'd go down to at least 3 and maybe even 2, unless you wanted the full count as shoal fodder I guess. You do have a pretty low blue card count for those shoals - probe, undoing, foundry, and shoals themselves.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Yea, after some testing I realize this deck is going to need a major overhaul.
Revamped the list in the primer. With the previous deck it was alittle difficult to develop a solid board presence quick enough so that Undoing became viable. The "eggs" were also to underwhelming.
The new theme is to try and get pressure on the board with Delver, lock up key spells with Meddling Mage and go wide with Mentor. Also counter and bounce everything your opponent plays.
@Natejay: Totally forgot about Commandeer, will definitively try and fit a couple in.
@TheNoob: Quicken is a consideration, it would have to replace Serum Visions, which I think is better for delver flips. May test it later on.
@BadMc: Yea I got rid of the Thopter Foundry idea.
interesting concept for sure - ive been trying to make UW mentor work with myth realized and day's undoing and stuff like vapor snag. I even gave nivmagus elemental a couple tries as a way to turn gitaxian probes and serum visions into damage when needed (still triggers myth and mentor too!)
Problem as always is breaking the symmetry on day's undoing. vapor snag and disrupting shoal do help but there are a lot of equally fast decks out there where undoing is just a pure gamble where even on t3 you both draw like same # of cards.
Would be cool if this deck works though!
Myth Realized seems really good for this deck, wonder if its better to run than Mentor.
Will have to test.
Updated OP.
To be honest if you are playing Day's Undoing I think 4x Disrupting Shoal and at least 2x Snapback are auto includes.
Then clearly you've never played with Day's Undoing.
For a guy with many "ideas" you surely lack the art of criticism, either way, I blame myself for expecting more. I've actually been experimenting with the card in another deck: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/629547-mentors-undoing. Not my pet deck, but just an idea I had and wanted to experiment with, anyone with some constructive criticism is welcomed to chime in.
Don't want to derail the Tezz thread so I'll post this here. I am interested in discussing this build, but I seriously doubt you've done a lot of testing with it. Otherwise, I'd assume you'd have come to the same conclusions as me.
I've been testing various Undoing shells since the card was spoiled and have realized a few things. The big issue here: Undoing only cares about the board and the damage race (it ignores hand advantage). The best way to impact either of these axes is with creatures. You're pretty threat-light. Do you like casting Undoing when you don't have guys? In a format full of one- and two-mana beaters, I'm assuming you frequently have Undoing "live" while your opponents are ahead on the board. Am I wrong?
Snapback and (especially) Commandeer are cards that become much worse when you don't find your namesake card. What happens when you don't draw a Day's Undoing?
How are your aggro matchups? Specifically, Burn, Affinity, and Zoo? The biggest struggle with iGrow was finding a build (esp. sideboard) that could handle these decks, but testing suggests that I've gotten there. I've found Lighting Bolt crucial to victory against them, but you don't run that card. Very obviously, Living End is a bye for Day's Undoing decks in general. It would be interesting to see if this build can tangle with archetypes that don't get randomly hosed by the card.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
...Don't want to derail the Tezz thread so I'll post this here. I am interested in discussing this build, but I seriously doubt you've done a lot of testing with it. Otherwise, I'd assume you'd have come to the same conclusions as me.
I've been testing various Undoing shells since the card was spoiled and have realized a few things. The big issue here: Undoing only cares about the board and the damage race (it ignores hand advantage). The best way to impact either of these axes is with creatures. You're pretty threat-light.
Fair enough. I've only been testing for about two days, so nothing extensive. I do agree that Day's Undoing only cares about board presence and cheap powerful threats are necessary. The current version of this deck runs 4x Delver of Secrets (the most aggressive blue creature in the format) and 3x Myth Realized (a card I hadn't considered before).
In a format full of one- and two-mana beaters, I'm assuming you frequently have Undoing "live" while your opponents are ahead on the board. Am I wrong?
True, I try and resolve this by bouncing/countering/commadeering the relevant threats. The idea is play a few threats, bounce a few of theirs, play Meddling Mage and name something relevant (Gitaxian Probe helps in this aspect), then cast Undoing. Ideally, I want to cast Undoing when I have 2-3 threats on board, my opponent has 6-7 cards in hand and I have 1-2.
Snapback and (especially) Commandeer are cards that become much worse when you don't find your namesake card. What happens when you don't draw a Day's Undoing?
This is a much welcomed question as the builds I've seen running Undoing tend to not really need the card. While I do think iGrow is the best implementation I've come across so far, I feel you are trying to play the card like Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. URx Aggro/Midrange/Control seldom suffer from card advantage imho. I could be wrong, but when you have access to cards like Snapcaster Mage, Electrolyze, Kolaghan's Command, Remand, Cryptic Command why play Day's Undoing? So you cast it on an opponent that is "accruing incremental advantage", but you end up giving them a full grip with only Disrupting Shoal to "protect" you on the opposing turn. The point I'm trying to make is that, take Undoing out of your deck and it functions as if the card never existed because the other cards more than make up for it.
My build "needs" the card and 4x of it. As you elude to, cards like Snapback, Shoal and Commandeer require you have lots and lots of cards in hand. Naturally you start the game with atleast seven cards, so I'm fine there. As the game progresses, I empty my hand fairly quick and fast enough to where my opponent still has close to a full grip. Five cards to my one isn't bad if that one is Day's Undoing. Then after casting Day's Undoing, I will potentially have another hand full of cards I can still cast on my opponents turn even if I'm tapped out.
How are your aggro matchups? Specifically, Burn, Affinity, and Zoo? The biggest struggle with iGrow was finding a build (esp. sideboard) that could handle these decks, but testing suggests that I've gotten there. I've found Lighting Bolt crucial to victory against them, but you don't run that card. Very obviously, Living End is a bye for Day's Undoing decks in general. It would be interesting to see if this build can tangle with archetypes that don't get randomly hosed by the card.
As of yet I haven't really run into these decks and my list have been very much influx in my two days of testing. White is a color known for its sideboard options and I will try and exploit that in this build as much as I can. Cards like Leyline of Sanctity, Stony Silence, Path to Exile and Kor Firewalker come to mind for the matchups you mention.
Living End may be considered a "bye", but that particular game wasn't won because of Days Undoing...
Thank you for the solid critiques, I like you want this card to work and will be experimenting with this build. Hopefully, it draws enough interest and can be fully developed into something competitive.
Fair enough. I've only been testing for about two days, so nothing extensive. I do agree that Day's Undoing only cares about board presence and cheap powerful threats are necessary. The current version of this deck runs 4x Delver of Secrets (the most aggressive blue creature in the format) and 3x Myth Realized (a card I hadn't considered before).
My friend built a Jeskai iGrow deck with Mentors and ran Myth Realized, but gave up on the deck for the same reasons I think you'll have to. Myth seems great on paper, but costing mana every turn is a huge deal in decks like these, which want to maximize velocity and number of spells played per turn without going so all-in on the "Undoing plan" that they just lose when they don't have Undoing. Myth is still a step in the right direction, since it's another threat, which you need direly. But it's not a great threat. And every nonblue card you include makes Commandeer significantly worse.
True, I try and resolve this by bouncing/countering/commadeering the relevant threats. The idea is play a few threats, bounce a few of theirs, play Meddling Mage and name something relevant (Gitaxian Probe helps in this aspect), then cast Undoing. Ideally, I want to cast Undoing when I have 2-3 threats on board, my opponent has 6-7 cards in hand and I have 1-2.
...Which is exactly why you want more threats. If that's your plan - and that is the plan in iGrow decks - you need 15+ threats to get there enough of the time. They also need to be cheap, so they can resolve reliably before you Undo, and ideally so you can play multiples every turn. Mentor and Myth, which cost 3+ mana (in Myth's case, even more over the case of a game), are bad threats for the strategy, while Swiftspear and Goyf, which pack a ton of punch for cost, are great.
Snapback and (especially) Commandeer are cards that become much worse when you don't find your namesake card. What happens when you don't draw a Day's Undoing?
This is a much welcomed question as the builds I've seen running Undoing tend to not really need the card. While I do think iGrow is the best implementation I've come across so far, I feel you are trying to play the card like Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. URx Aggro/Midrange/Control seldom suffer from card advantage imho. I could be wrong, but when you have access to cards like Snapcaster Mage, Electrolyze, Kolaghan's Command, Remand, Cryptic Command why play Day's Undoing? So you cast it on an opponent that is "accruing incremental advantage", but you end up giving them a full grip with only Disrupting Shoal to "protect" you on the opposing turn. The point I'm trying to make is that, take Undoing out of your deck and it functions as if the card never existed because the other cards more than make up for it.
My build "needs" the card and 4x of it. As you elude to, cards like Snapback, Shoal and Commandeer require you have lots and lots of cards in hand. Naturally you start the game with atleast seven cards, so I'm fine there. As the game progresses, I empty my hand fairly quick and fast enough to where my opponent still has close to a full grip. Five cards to my one isn't bad if that one is Day's Undoing. Then after casting Day's Undoing, I will potentially have another hand full of cards I can still cast on my opponents turn even if I'm tapped out.
That your build "needs" the card doesn't make it better. Basically you're forcing the archetype by playing too many "combos with Undoing" cards. So when you don't have Undoing - and, with Serum Visions as your only digger, that should happen quite a bit - you're playing an exceptionally horrible deck.
And Commandeer, even with two blue cards and an Undoing, is far too narrow to see Modern play. What do you want to steal with it? Liliana? Karn? These cards are lynchpins of decks that autolose to effective Undoing strategies anyway. Bolt? You want to spend three cards on a Bolt? That's even if you have two blue cards, PLUS a Day's Undoing, PLUS Commandeer in hand. And you have to be willing to trade all of that for the Bolt (or whatever it is you're Commandeering, but since Modern spells are so cheap in general, you'll be lucky to snag something as comparitively high-impact as Bolt). I think it's much sounder to slot Undoing into a deck that naturally spends all its cards very quickly while attacking and controlling the opponent's board, like UR Delver.
It's true that URx has card advantage tools in Modern. Cryptic Command, Snapcaster, and Electrolyze are all great examples. But grow decks don't want these cards. If you don't know the difference between tempo and midrange, you can read about it here.
As of yet I haven't really run into these decks and my list have been very much influx in my two days of testing. White is a color known for its sideboard options and I will try and exploit that in this build as much as I can. Cards like Leyline of Sanctity, Stony Silence, Path to Exile and Kor Firewalker come to mind for the matchups you mention.
Living End may be considered a "bye", but that particular game wasn't won because of Days Undoing...
Thank you for the solid critiques, I like you want this card to work and will be experimenting with this build. Hopefully, it draws enough interest and can be fully developed into something competitive.
Well, not only are aggressive decks tougher matchups for iGrow strategies, they're also some of the most heavily represented in the format. If you're serious about your deck's success, you need to play against them to see where you're at. (Prediction: you'll beg for a Lightning Bolt. You'll do anything for a Lightning Bolt. Outside of Commandeer one!) Path is sweet but it will never get you there against aggro decks by itself, and you can't run it in the main because giving your opponents permanents on an Undoing plan is so bad.
Lastly: you have no way to reach out your opponents. iGrow generally wins the turn after Undoing. Opponents play Goyf, Scooze, Huntmaster, whatever. We play Swiftspear, Snag, a bunch of cantrips, a Bolt, and attack for like, 10. Your deck has no way to close out games right after it draws seven cards. You need to already represent lethal. Counting on a resolved Mentor (the turn before Undoing? IDK) sticking after you pass the turn to your opponent is unrealistic, especially if you also plan to have enough Swiftspear tokens to carry you next turn. That's why red is so crucial to the archetype.
Hope this helps. I also don't see how it's useful to have 8000000 different Undoing Delver threads. I suggest we continue the discussion over here. In my opinion, you're not playing a "different deck;" you're playing a worse version of that deck. I've seen lots of MTGS posts with users saying "this is bad," "how is this not just a worse Jund," etc. about decks they've never tested or played with. Just for the record, I'm not "theorycrafting" (seriously Magic players, this is not a word) here; I like free spells more than just about anyone and have tried Commandeer in a variety of Undoing shells, including iGrow. It's bad. Same with Mentor, same with Myth, and same with multiple Snapback (I started with 3, went to 2, went to 1, moved it to the sideboard). All the advice I give in this post is based on testing experience.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Just a point for Commandeer can steal if resolved; any Planeswalker, Enchantment, none creature artifact, and can be used as a counterspell essentially stopping a loss. I run controll so its something I have used alot and tested alot.
Updated OP with a Shoal's Undoing idea, needs work but interested in thoughts.
Have you thought about a Tallowisp engine? Permanents that negate your opponent's, i.e. Temporal Isolation, can be really sweet with Undoing. Not to mention Tallowisp triggers put Shoal food into your hand.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think Meddling Mage is probably one of the best cards to run with Day's Undoing because you can see whats in their deck and make some of the cards you shuffle back into their library irrelevant. Another thought I had was to do something with Dissipate, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, and/or Path to Exile. As many people mention you have to find a way to break the parity with Day's Undoing. One of the best ways to do this is to exile any relevant threats the opponent has and then Day's Undoing refills their deck/hand with only cards you don't care about them having but you also get to restock your answers. Otherwise anything you counter/kill goes into your opponent's graveyard and then Day's cycles it all back into their deck. That means that their threat density is the same as yours. That isn't breaking parity. You now have to remove/answer those threats again.
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Path to Exile is pretty bad if you're planning on Undoing; giving your opponent the first crack at their fresh 7 with 2~3 more mana available than you (off of lands that you gave them) isn't great. Pressing a mana advantage through an Undoing can have a huge impact. I'd definitely rather exile than not, but not at the cost of giving them a land.
Path to Exile is pretty bad if you're planning on Undoing; giving your opponent the first crack at their fresh 7 with 2~3 more mana available than you (off of lands that you gave them) isn't great. Pressing a mana advantage through an Undoing can have a huge impact. I'd definitely rather exile than not, but not at the cost of giving them a land.
Well, it's imperative to press either a board or a damage imperative with Undoing. Path makes it very difficult to press a board advantage, because as you said, lands are permanents that stay on the board. They can be fine in a deck running plenty of hyper-aggressive creatures, but you need a pretty good reason to not run Vapor Snag instead.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
It just occurred to me that Threads of Disloyalty could be amazing with Undoing. It generates "card advantage" in that it's cleanly a 2-for-1, but that advantage is entirely on the board, not cards sitting in your hand, so you maintain that advantage through an Undoing. It would also work with the idea of a Tallowisp engine that you mentioned (though I think it could be strong without that extra synergy), and Threads does pitch to Shoal / Snapback.
On the other hand, it's a bit expensive and shares the 3-spot with Undoing, and ofc some decks don't have good targets for it. It would probably be best with Shoal & maybe some number of Snapbacks, to keep it from sitting in your hand.
It just occurred to me that Threads of Disloyalty could be amazing with Undoing. It generates "card advantage" in that it's cleanly a 2-for-1, but that advantage is entirely on the board, not cards sitting in your hand, so you maintain that advantage through an Undoing. It would also work with the idea of a Tallowisp engine that you mentioned (though I think it could be strong without that extra synergy), and Threads does pitch to Shoal / Snapback.
On the other hand, it's a bit expensive and shares the 3-spot with Undoing, and ofc some decks don't have good targets for it. It would probably be best with Shoal & maybe some number of Snapbacks, to keep it from sitting in your hand.
If you click the iGrow link in my signature, you'll see that Undoing Delver decks have been playing this card since Undoing was spoiled.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Been awhile since I visited this idea. Never got to test the white Shoals Undoing version but I feel it has some potential. Will try to get some games in and test if I get a chance. But please keep the ideas coming. Tallowisp engine is definitely intriguing.
I'm curious why Threads of Disloyalty is so good with Day's Undoing. I don't understand the synergy. Is it because its a card that you are not getting back when you shuffle your graveyard? I think I'd rather have a card go to my yard and put it back in my deck as gas.
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I'm curious why Threads of Disloyalty is so good with Day's Undoing. I don't understand the synergy. Is it because its a card that you are not getting back when you shuffle your graveyard? I think I'd rather have a card go to my yard and put it back in my deck as gas.
It was literally explained three posts above yours.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm curious why Threads of Disloyalty is so good with Day's Undoing. I don't understand the synergy. Is it because its a card that you are not getting back when you shuffle your graveyard? I think I'd rather have a card go to my yard and put it back in my deck as gas.
It was literally explained three posts above yours.
That post is literally the reason i'm asking. I disagree with it. Having your removal stay on board is not card advantage except thats its a control spell. I'd rather have a Path, Bolt, or Leak back in my library and eventually my hand. Its like having more than 4 copies of that spell in your deck.
What am I missing about leaving the removal spell on board that makes it so good?
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Updated with a Shoal's Undoing decklist below as another approach:
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Shining Shoal
4 Snapback
2 Sunscour
2 Commandeer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Serum Visions
4 Day's Undoing
4 Vapor Snag
2 Azorius Charm
2 Boomerang
2 Myth Realized
Lands (18)
10 Other Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Meddling Mage
1 Monastery Mentor
Spells (26)
4 Day's Undoing
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Snapback
4 Serum Visions
2 Commandeer
2 Vapor Snag
2 Boomerang
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Myth Realized
Lands (18)
13 Other Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
2 Greater Auramancy
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Remand
1 Myth Realized
vs Gifts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gB0pSBybd0
vs Loam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOoMBG-MpPY (3x Myth Realized and only 1 Mentor)
vs Living End: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wtQ96kf3hA&feature=youtu.be (this list had 4 Mentor's and no Myth Realized)
Delver of Secrets: Cheap and fast when trying to develop a board presence.
Meddling Mage: Disruption on a clock, can lock them out of certain spells so after you cast Day's Undoing you have some protection from relevant spells.
Myth Realized: New addition that lands earlier than Mentor but shares a vertical "prowess" ability in that he doesn't go wide like Mentor, but he grows/benefits from the same spells. Being an enchantment allows him to stay dormant and grow until you feel safe to activate and attack. In considering sideboard cards like Leyline of Sanctity and Stony Silence, I may run a few copies of Greater Auramancy since it would protect Myth Realized as well.
Thoughts?
Support:
Disrupting Shoal: Free counterspell, all spells in the deck are blue save for the Baubles and Mentors. You will mostly be trying to interact early with your opponent to counter other counterspells or removal.
Gitaxian Probe: Free cantrip, blue spell for Shoal.
Boomerang: main target here would be opponents lands.
Snapback:Free bounce for creatures.
Cavern of Souls: All creatures are Human.
Commandeer:New addition that fits the theme quite well. Would love to steal a Karn Liberated with this card!
All constructive feedback welcomed, thanks!
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Problem as always is breaking the symmetry on day's undoing. vapor snag and disrupting shoal do help but there are a lot of equally fast decks out there where undoing is just a pure gamble where even on t3 you both draw like same # of cards.
Would be cool if this deck works though!
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
So in a scenario where you cast undoing on turn 1 or 2, you've practically emptied your had and redrew 7. Where as your opponent didn't really draw 7, but exchanged their initial hand for 7 new cards. Considering that they kept their hand, they were pleased with it, now you just gave them 7 random cards.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Revamped the list in the primer. With the previous deck it was alittle difficult to develop a solid board presence quick enough so that Undoing became viable. The "eggs" were also to underwhelming.
The new theme is to try and get pressure on the board with Delver, lock up key spells with Meddling Mage and go wide with Mentor. Also counter and bounce everything your opponent plays.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
-2 Shoals for 2 Remand
-4 Snapbacks for 3 Commandeer and 1 Mana leak.
-2 Vapor Snags for 2 Snapcaster
-1 Days Undoing -1 serum vision for 2 paths.
Nice idea I'm play with it.
@TheNoob: Quicken is a consideration, it would have to replace Serum Visions, which I think is better for delver flips. May test it later on.
@BadMc: Yea I got rid of the Thopter Foundry idea.
Its all about free spells then refueling.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Will have to test.
Updated OP.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I've been testing various Undoing shells since the card was spoiled and have realized a few things. The big issue here: Undoing only cares about the board and the damage race (it ignores hand advantage). The best way to impact either of these axes is with creatures. You're pretty threat-light. Do you like casting Undoing when you don't have guys? In a format full of one- and two-mana beaters, I'm assuming you frequently have Undoing "live" while your opponents are ahead on the board. Am I wrong?
Snapback and (especially) Commandeer are cards that become much worse when you don't find your namesake card. What happens when you don't draw a Day's Undoing?
How are your aggro matchups? Specifically, Burn, Affinity, and Zoo? The biggest struggle with iGrow was finding a build (esp. sideboard) that could handle these decks, but testing suggests that I've gotten there. I've found Lighting Bolt crucial to victory against them, but you don't run that card. Very obviously, Living End is a bye for Day's Undoing decks in general. It would be interesting to see if this build can tangle with archetypes that don't get randomly hosed by the card.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
True, I try and resolve this by bouncing/countering/commadeering the relevant threats. The idea is play a few threats, bounce a few of theirs, play Meddling Mage and name something relevant (Gitaxian Probe helps in this aspect), then cast Undoing. Ideally, I want to cast Undoing when I have 2-3 threats on board, my opponent has 6-7 cards in hand and I have 1-2.
This is a much welcomed question as the builds I've seen running Undoing tend to not really need the card. While I do think iGrow is the best implementation I've come across so far, I feel you are trying to play the card like Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. URx Aggro/Midrange/Control seldom suffer from card advantage imho. I could be wrong, but when you have access to cards like Snapcaster Mage, Electrolyze, Kolaghan's Command, Remand, Cryptic Command why play Day's Undoing? So you cast it on an opponent that is "accruing incremental advantage", but you end up giving them a full grip with only Disrupting Shoal to "protect" you on the opposing turn. The point I'm trying to make is that, take Undoing out of your deck and it functions as if the card never existed because the other cards more than make up for it.
My build "needs" the card and 4x of it. As you elude to, cards like Snapback, Shoal and Commandeer require you have lots and lots of cards in hand. Naturally you start the game with atleast seven cards, so I'm fine there. As the game progresses, I empty my hand fairly quick and fast enough to where my opponent still has close to a full grip. Five cards to my one isn't bad if that one is Day's Undoing. Then after casting Day's Undoing, I will potentially have another hand full of cards I can still cast on my opponents turn even if I'm tapped out.
As of yet I haven't really run into these decks and my list have been very much influx in my two days of testing. White is a color known for its sideboard options and I will try and exploit that in this build as much as I can. Cards like Leyline of Sanctity, Stony Silence, Path to Exile and Kor Firewalker come to mind for the matchups you mention.
Living End may be considered a "bye", but that particular game wasn't won because of Days Undoing...
Thank you for the solid critiques, I like you want this card to work and will be experimenting with this build. Hopefully, it draws enough interest and can be fully developed into something competitive.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
And Commandeer, even with two blue cards and an Undoing, is far too narrow to see Modern play. What do you want to steal with it? Liliana? Karn? These cards are lynchpins of decks that autolose to effective Undoing strategies anyway. Bolt? You want to spend three cards on a Bolt? That's even if you have two blue cards, PLUS a Day's Undoing, PLUS Commandeer in hand. And you have to be willing to trade all of that for the Bolt (or whatever it is you're Commandeering, but since Modern spells are so cheap in general, you'll be lucky to snag something as comparitively high-impact as Bolt). I think it's much sounder to slot Undoing into a deck that naturally spends all its cards very quickly while attacking and controlling the opponent's board, like UR Delver.
It's true that URx has card advantage tools in Modern. Cryptic Command, Snapcaster, and Electrolyze are all great examples. But grow decks don't want these cards. If you don't know the difference between tempo and midrange, you can read about it here. Well, not only are aggressive decks tougher matchups for iGrow strategies, they're also some of the most heavily represented in the format. If you're serious about your deck's success, you need to play against them to see where you're at. (Prediction: you'll beg for a Lightning Bolt. You'll do anything for a Lightning Bolt. Outside of Commandeer one!) Path is sweet but it will never get you there against aggro decks by itself, and you can't run it in the main because giving your opponents permanents on an Undoing plan is so bad.
Lastly: you have no way to reach out your opponents. iGrow generally wins the turn after Undoing. Opponents play Goyf, Scooze, Huntmaster, whatever. We play Swiftspear, Snag, a bunch of cantrips, a Bolt, and attack for like, 10. Your deck has no way to close out games right after it draws seven cards. You need to already represent lethal. Counting on a resolved Mentor (the turn before Undoing? IDK) sticking after you pass the turn to your opponent is unrealistic, especially if you also plan to have enough Swiftspear tokens to carry you next turn. That's why red is so crucial to the archetype.
Hope this helps. I also don't see how it's useful to have 8000000 different Undoing Delver threads. I suggest we continue the discussion over here. In my opinion, you're not playing a "different deck;" you're playing a worse version of that deck. I've seen lots of MTGS posts with users saying "this is bad," "how is this not just a worse Jund," etc. about decks they've never tested or played with. Just for the record, I'm not "theorycrafting" (seriously Magic players, this is not a word) here; I like free spells more than just about anyone and have tried Commandeer in a variety of Undoing shells, including iGrow. It's bad. Same with Mentor, same with Myth, and same with multiple Snapback (I started with 3, went to 2, went to 1, moved it to the sideboard). All the advice I give in this post is based on testing experience.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
On the other hand, it's a bit expensive and shares the 3-spot with Undoing, and ofc some decks don't have good targets for it. It would probably be best with Shoal & maybe some number of Snapbacks, to keep it from sitting in your hand.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
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Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
That post is literally the reason i'm asking. I disagree with it. Having your removal stay on board is not card advantage except thats its a control spell. I'd rather have a Path, Bolt, or Leak back in my library and eventually my hand. Its like having more than 4 copies of that spell in your deck.
What am I missing about leaving the removal spell on board that makes it so good?
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