Greater Gargadon is pretty silly. It's an un-counterable sac outlet for R. When the villain gets fancy and wants to remand it, you re-suspend and get 9 more sac outlets!
RiotInferno posted it two days before Dos_rouge and i missed it!
Did I miss the post by Dos_rouge, or is that a different thread?
Edit: Nevermind, found it here
Yea, I think this thread is more towards what I want the deck to run like, I tried the Dangerous Wager and Greater Gargadon idea shortly and wasn't satisfied. It forces too many "to dredge or not to dredge" scenarios. Maybe I'm just not patient enough with it or my build wasn't optimized.
Updated my list to remove the 2x Hangarback Walker, they were too cute. Instead I added the 4th Bloodghast and trying out Mystic Retrieval again. I figure its a way to get Postmortem Lunge back, so the deck feels alittle more consistent and I can focus on dredging as hard and early as possible. The list does feel like it wants 2-3x Street Wraith. Maybe, I'll take out the Magmatic Insight and something else. Still working on the manabase.
Instead of Postmortem Lunge, you could increase the number of Golgari Thugs in the list. Thug + Tymaret lets you bring back any creature you want to cast ( Seer / Jace ). You don't need to Lunge the GGT, as you can just dredge -> cast it.
I've found that every time I get to about 3 mana, I go into "all dredge, all the time" mode, and don't think about "do I, don't I".
Instead of Postmortem Lunge, you could increase the number of Golgari Thugs in the list. Thug + Tymaret lets you bring back any creature you want to cast ( Seer / Jace ). You don't need to Lunge the GGT, as you can just dredge -> cast it.
I've found that every time I get to about 3 mana, I go into "all dredge, all the time" mode, and don't think about "do I, don't I".
True, the Postmortem aspect is not that critical to the functioning of the deck. It was originally there as a way to recur Hangarback Walker for zero mana with a few Bridges in the yard. Now its just there to grab Jace/Seer. I have removed a Lunge and Magmatic Insight to add 2x Street Wraith.
The problem with the Thug "recursion" is that its extremely slow as you have to atleast cast the Thug, then lose an opportunity to dredge in order to draw the card. You also have to have some way of killing the Thug short of blocking or having your opponent Bolt him etc. What I like about Postmortem Lunge is that it gives haste, so if they don't have removal, Jace transforms 99% of the time and you have a planeswalker. Also, with Lunge you don't necessarily need blue mana to get Jace in play. I can also get it back with Mystic Retrieval, which itself has flashback. So far, I've mostly used Thug's trigger to put Nacromoeba back into my library.
In the last month or so, I've switched to Bridge-less dredge, because it feels less frail and more explosive. I keep my eyes open for Bridge fodder though, because I really want it to work in modern.
Why would it work with Gemstone at zero counters? Gemstone has to be sacrificed when it runs out of them.
I know why people love Tymaret, but I just hate the cost and the fact that he's so underwhelming as a board presence. This deck is gonna need new cards to keep the engine running. I still think Dangerous Wager is a must but that's just me.
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
I figured it was an honest mistake. I do that all the time with cards that have obvious nonbos. I used to think Flayer of the Hatebound worked with Living End for example. Heh.
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
I figured it was an honest mistake. I do that all the time with cards that have obvious nonbos. I used to think Flayer of the Hatebound worked with Living End for example. Heh.
I hear you there. My latest non-bo was [card]Undead Servant[\card] in my standard Rally list.
Why would it work with Gemstone at zero counters? Gemstone has to be sacrificed when it runs out of them.
I know why people love Tymaret, but I just hate the cost and the fact that he's so underwhelming as a board presence. This deck is gonna need new cards to keep the engine running. I still think Dangerous Wager is a must but that's just me.
I don't use Tymaret as a board presence at all, he's purely used as a 2-mana sac outlet. Mostly with Golgari Thug.
I really like Magus of the Bazaar. If you can untap with it, it's very powerful.
@Riot, Im really interested in adopting manabase. Did you find yourself losing too much life and was Reflecting Pool on most of the time?
Also why no love for Bloodghast in that list, Dakmor allows you to dregde and trigger when needed..
Bloodghast is great! I didn't feel like spending the extra $20-$25 to get some on MTGO, which is where I do a majority of my testing before I go to paper tournaments.
Typically in this list, I've been cycling gravecrawler in and out, especially when including Purphorous. I think the deck can support one or the other, but not both.
I really enjoy the manabase, but I think 16 land is too few. Even with multiple Life from the Loam, you need to hit 2-3 land to really get going.
I would also recommend 1 Gnaw to the Bone mainboard to help out with the pain lands and to shore up game 1 against Burn.
You might want to keep 1 Flame-Kin Zealot in the list, as hitting it with Unburial Rites usually locks up the game.
Well played with the above list on mtgo for about 2hrs and just found it too inconsistent and extremely slow. Gonna just tweak my other list more and try and fine tune. Also really not sure on Reflecting Pool, had games where it was the only land in my opener.
what are your thoughts on mulldrifter? it draws cards for dredge and immediately you get some zombies from bridge. has anyone tried that yet?
The only thing about Mulldrifter is the cost. So far the biggest obstacle to creating a proper dredge deck is mana. If you're not playing Life from the Loam, it's hard to play three colors. Since this isn't Legacy, you can't play land-free.
The thing about Loam is that it belongs in a different deck. Being able to play lands doesn't do much for you. I know it sounds like I'm contradicting myself but Loam is a card that assists the deck's parity, but not its velocity. That's why Dakmor Salvage is so perfect conceptually. It's not great in practice, but it gets the job done. But playing with Salvage restricts your manabase. So you really have to pick between R/B, U/R, or some other combination.
I'm only talking in the context of competitive playing. The deck gets to three mana consistently thanks to Dakmor, but Mulldrifter needs to hit right away in order to really pop off.
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
If you can cast Loam once, you are usually in good shape land wise for the rest of the game. This list has been somewhat consistent as far as Modern Dredge goes. I do miss Rotting Rats, might try and find space for one. Sideboard is up in the air. Gnaw to the Bone does alot of work!
It's great to see other people working on Bridge!
I've also spent most of my summer wrenching on different dredge builds. Here's what I've ran into:
....
Evoking Mulldrifter with Bridge in the GY is one of the best feelings in magic, but a little too cute for a 4-of.
It's great to see other people working on Bridge!
I've also spent most of my summer wrenching on different dredge builds. Here's what I've ran into:
....
1 Gnaw to the Bone mainboard really helps against Burn, and bringing in more from the board really sticks it to 'fair' creature decks.
Feed the Clan is very good when gaining 10 life. Gnaw -> Flashback Gnaw can put games out of reach for some 'fair' decks.
Edit: I just realized that Lootsmith wasn't asking me about Gnaw. I'll leave the comment for posterity.
@Toppor, think I agree. Loam is a trap, it forces green, which then forces an extremely painful manabase.
I think the deck needs more enablers and less land.
Turn one is in my opinion the most crucial turn for this deck, we want to get a Dredger in the yard or start milling ourselves immediately. Red and Blue provide the most efficient ways of doing this with Faithless Looting and Thought Scour. Thinking about revisiting some previous options and removing the green "splash".
So -1 Land (will redo the manabase), -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Gnaw to the Bone and +3x some combination of the cards below.
Thoughts on these turn 1 enablers: Dream Twist: The best in my opinion since it has flashback. Its a "dredge" 3. And with Dakmor, we will potentially get to 2 lands throughout the game. Hedron Crab: Not as good without fetchlands, but can "combo" with Dakmor. Problem is that its not immediate and will most likely eat a bolt. Horrifying Revelation: "Dredge 2" and allows you to toss a dredger, Bridge or Bloodghast. Merrow Witsniper: "Dredge 1" and is immediate. Not good enough in my opinion. Tome Scour: "Dredge 5", goes pretty deep. Drowned Rusalka: Nice engine that allows us to discard first then draw. Starts late and like Crab will likely eat a bolt. Magmatic Insight: Does combo well with Dakmor, but in a low land deck can sit in the hand for awhile. One with Nothing: Ehh, would be nice if it had some additional effect.
It is important to remember enablers aren't to be judged on their lack recurrablity. I know this isn't Legacy dredge so comparisons are somewhat futile, but in looking at a list like this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10274&d=258952&f=LE, they run 15 non-recurrable enablers (All but the Street Wraiths are illegal in Modern):
Modern is alot "slower" than Legacy despite some of the fast decks in this format.
-So I feel its safe to say we try and run +17-18 enablers minimum?
-They run 12 lands, so we run minimum 16? Too many lands have been really getting in the way of Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, Dredgers and Bridges.
-Full set of Thugs? Really need the consistency, I know we run Dakmor, but it dredges extremely weak.
Anyway, just some thoughts, again I know Legacy is a completely different beast, but just thinking out loud.
Dream Twist looks best there; first turn three and third turn six outside of the draw-dredge mechanic allowing both to occur on the same turn. Hedron carb is working in a deck that is going around though.
I like Tormenting Voice / Wild Guess that require discard as additional costs. I'm not a fan of random discards ala Desperate Ravings or Goblin Lore, as I usually end up binning the wrong things.
Did I miss the post by Dos_rouge, or is that a different thread?
Edit: Nevermind, found it here
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Updated my list to remove the 2x Hangarback Walker, they were too cute. Instead I added the 4th Bloodghast and trying out Mystic Retrieval again. I figure its a way to get Postmortem Lunge back, so the deck feels alittle more consistent and I can focus on dredging as hard and early as possible. The list does feel like it wants 2-3x Street Wraith. Maybe, I'll take out the Magmatic Insight and something else. Still working on the manabase.
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Shivan Reef
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Steam Vents
1 Mana Confluence
1 Mountain
Creatures (22)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
2 Golgari Thug
1 Viscera Seer
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Rotting Rats
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
4 Postmortem Lunge
2 Burning Inquiry
1 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Magmatic Insight
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Rending Volley
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Waste Not
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I've found that every time I get to about 3 mana, I go into "all dredge, all the time" mode, and don't think about "do I, don't I".
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The problem with the Thug "recursion" is that its extremely slow as you have to atleast cast the Thug, then lose an opportunity to dredge in order to draw the card. You also have to have some way of killing the Thug short of blocking or having your opponent Bolt him etc. What I like about Postmortem Lunge is that it gives haste, so if they don't have removal, Jace transforms 99% of the time and you have a planeswalker. Also, with Lunge you don't necessarily need blue mana to get Jace in play. I can also get it back with Mystic Retrieval, which itself has flashback. So far, I've mostly used Thug's trigger to put Nacromoeba back into my library.
Do you have a list you can share?
Updated list:
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Shivan Reef
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Steam Vents
1 Mana Confluence
1 Mountain
Creatures (24)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
2 Golgari Thug
2 Street Wraith
1 Viscera Seer
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Rotting Rats
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
3 Postmortem Lunge
2 Burning Inquiry
1 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
1 Mystic Retrieval
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Rending Volley
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Waste Not
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Bridge from Below
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Magus of the Bazaar
2 Monastery Siege
1 Mulldrifter
4 Narcomoeba
1 Shriekmaw
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Thought Scour
3 Faithless Looting
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
2 Unburial Rites
In the last month or so, I've switched to Bridge-less dredge, because it feels less frail and more explosive. I keep my eyes open for Bridge fodder though, because I really want it to work in modern.
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Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Why would it work with Gemstone at zero counters? Gemstone has to be sacrificed when it runs out of them.
I know why people love Tymaret, but I just hate the cost and the fact that he's so underwhelming as a board presence. This deck is gonna need new cards to keep the engine running. I still think Dangerous Wager is a must but that's just me.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
It works pretty well with City of Brass, and Gemstone Mine works well with Life from the Loam.
I hear you there. My latest non-bo was [card]Undead Servant[\card] in my standard Rally list.
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I don't use Tymaret as a board presence at all, he's purely used as a 2-mana sac outlet. Mostly with Golgari Thug.
I really like Magus of the Bazaar. If you can untap with it, it's very powerful.
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Also why no love for Bloodghast in that list, Dakmor allows you to dregde and trigger when needed..
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Reflecting Pool
Creatures (26)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
3 Golgari Thug
2 Greater Gargadon
2 Street Wraith
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Phantasmagorian
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
2 Life from the Loam
2 Burning Inquiry
1 Unburial Rites
1 Darkblast
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ray of Revelation
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Bloodghast is great! I didn't feel like spending the extra $20-$25 to get some on MTGO, which is where I do a majority of my testing before I go to paper tournaments.
Typically in this list, I've been cycling gravecrawler in and out, especially when including Purphorous. I think the deck can support one or the other, but not both.
I really enjoy the manabase, but I think 16 land is too few. Even with multiple Life from the Loam, you need to hit 2-3 land to really get going.
I would also recommend 1 Gnaw to the Bone mainboard to help out with the pain lands and to shore up game 1 against Burn.
You might want to keep 1 Flame-Kin Zealot in the list, as hitting it with Unburial Rites usually locks up the game.
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Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
The only thing about Mulldrifter is the cost. So far the biggest obstacle to creating a proper dredge deck is mana. If you're not playing Life from the Loam, it's hard to play three colors. Since this isn't Legacy, you can't play land-free.
The thing about Loam is that it belongs in a different deck. Being able to play lands doesn't do much for you. I know it sounds like I'm contradicting myself but Loam is a card that assists the deck's parity, but not its velocity. That's why Dakmor Salvage is so perfect conceptually. It's not great in practice, but it gets the job done. But playing with Salvage restricts your manabase. So you really have to pick between R/B, U/R, or some other combination.
I'm only talking in the context of competitive playing. The deck gets to three mana consistently thanks to Dakmor, but Mulldrifter needs to hit right away in order to really pop off.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
4 Dakmor Salvage
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Shivan Reef
2 Reflecting Pool
2 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
1 Darkslick Shores
Creatures (25)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
3 Golgari Thug
3 Greater Gargadon
2 Street Wraith
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
2 Burning Inquiry
1 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Gnaw to the Bone
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Feed the Clan is very good when gaining 10 life. Gnaw -> Flashback Gnaw can put games out of reach for some 'fair' decks.
Edit: I just realized that Lootsmith wasn't asking me about Gnaw. I'll leave the comment for posterity.
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I think the deck needs more enablers and less land.
Turn one is in my opinion the most crucial turn for this deck, we want to get a Dredger in the yard or start milling ourselves immediately. Red and Blue provide the most efficient ways of doing this with Faithless Looting and Thought Scour. Thinking about revisiting some previous options and removing the green "splash".
So -1 Land (will redo the manabase), -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Gnaw to the Bone and +3x some combination of the cards below.
Thoughts on these turn 1 enablers:
Dream Twist: The best in my opinion since it has flashback. Its a "dredge" 3. And with Dakmor, we will potentially get to 2 lands throughout the game.
Hedron Crab: Not as good without fetchlands, but can "combo" with Dakmor. Problem is that its not immediate and will most likely eat a bolt.
Horrifying Revelation: "Dredge 2" and allows you to toss a dredger, Bridge or Bloodghast.
Merrow Witsniper: "Dredge 1" and is immediate. Not good enough in my opinion.
Tome Scour: "Dredge 5", goes pretty deep.
Drowned Rusalka: Nice engine that allows us to discard first then draw. Starts late and like Crab will likely eat a bolt.
Magmatic Insight: Does combo well with Dakmor, but in a low land deck can sit in the hand for awhile.
One with Nothing: Ehh, would be nice if it had some additional effect.
It is important to remember enablers aren't to be judged on their lack recurrablity. I know this isn't Legacy dredge so comparisons are somewhat futile, but in looking at a list like this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10274&d=258952&f=LE, they run 15 non-recurrable enablers (All but the Street Wraiths are illegal in Modern):
4 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
2 Street Wraith
2 Putrid Imp
Modern is alot "slower" than Legacy despite some of the fast decks in this format.
-So I feel its safe to say we try and run +17-18 enablers minimum?
-They run 12 lands, so we run minimum 16? Too many lands have been really getting in the way of Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, Dredgers and Bridges.
-Full set of Thugs? Really need the consistency, I know we run Dakmor, but it dredges extremely weak.
Anyway, just some thoughts, again I know Legacy is a completely different beast, but just thinking out loud.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I like Tormenting Voice / Wild Guess that require discard as additional costs. I'm not a fan of random discards ala Desperate Ravings or Goblin Lore, as I usually end up binning the wrong things.
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4 Dakmor Salvage
3 Steam Vents
2 Shivan Reef
2 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
Creatures (26)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
3 Greater Gargadon
2 Street Wraith
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
2 Dream Twist
2 Burning Inquiry
1 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Darkblast
1 Conflagrate
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant