I can't advocate for this deck at higher levels right now, since Modern is so linear after the bans. Time will introduce policing interactive decks and that's when iGrow will shine. Until then, RUG Delver is just better. THAT SAID, you should definitely see success with that deck at the local level.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Yeah this deck is for fnms and local stuff only, casting day's undoing is not what I want to do to try to win competitive games in modern. I'm playing rug monkey at regionals, but I'm pretty comfortable with that deck so I'm probably just gonna play this for funsies. Stubborn denial is a card I realllly want to be playing right now.
So stormchaser seems better than goyf (with no testing at all). Mana is a little better, and he allows for more "storming out" after casting a twister. Snapback over the third vapor snag to test, it seems like it would be better against infect and affinity than snag and I wanted another 2 drop for shoal. The twisted image (in place of the 4th snag) is completely incorrect but it seems like a lot of fun and I'm greedy as hell. Dropped a land and added a faithless looting as 18 lands seems high and after go-fishing having three mana on turn 3-4 does not seem like it will be an issue. Looting finds lands for an undoing in a pinch as well, at no cost to you. The first looting seems soooooo good.
Honestly stormchaser seems like the nuttynuts and worth inclusion over goyf without even considering the color requirements of goyf. I think that the inclusion of him as well as shaving the 18th land are correct. I think that the twisted image is almost certainly incorrect and should probably be either another bounce spell or a forked bolt. I wish that I could play a couple spell snares or something, but with the way that the curve is (8 ones and 8 twos) I don't know how good they will be. Such good protection against the cards that seem problematic for us (goryo's, eidolon, the deck affinity). Probably would be good in the hands where you want to day's on 4, but it's kind of bad with the prowess dudes. Idk, if there was any counterspell I would want to play (besides more shoals) spell snare would be it.
Gonna be playing this in 2-3 tournaments over the course of the next week. Will check back in later. Dunno how this deck will fare in the meta if people are focused on playing delver, affinity and infect, but casting day's undoing seems super fun.
Explore Painful Truths in place of Undoing in this linear meta. You lose 3 life and don't refill as much, but 3 is plenty in modern. And hey, u get to fuel prowess.
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the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
7>>>>>>>3 when you are trying to win with crappy, inefficient cards like swiftspear and stormchaser. Saying that 3 cards is "enough" in modern has nothing to do with modern at all, and has no real logical basis. I also don't want to take 5 damage every time I want to cast my draw spell.
7<<<<<3 when you are trying to win with crappy, inefficient cards like swiftspear and stormchaser. Saying that 3 cards is "enough" in modern has nothing to do with modern at all, and has no real logical basis. I also don't want to take 5 damage every time I want to cast my draw spell.
First, I think u meant to put 7>>>>>3 and not the other way around.
Second, you're completely ignoring the downsides of drawing that 7: that its symmetrical, that it ends your turn meaning you can't fuel prowess, and half your creatures are prowess.
Third, 3 cards are plenty in modern, I'm sticking to my word and not the one you're trying to put in my mouth. Who said "enough"? We can never draw enough cards in MTG. But if you can't end the game a turn or 2 after you resolve truths, you were not going to win even with Undoing. The argument missing a logical basis is yours.
Fourth, where are you taking 5 damage? Read the card. The most damage you can take from Truths, unless you cast it via Fist of Suns, is 3.
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the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Yea, that would indeed be an eye-opener. And then if they go on to win after losing 5 life in addition to all thet fetch/shocking, that would REALLY be something.
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My only concern with truths is the lifeloss. We are already taking much pain from probe/fetch/shock, especially if running 3 colours. Undoing might be symetrical, but i does not cost you life and thats huge.
Well, the question at any point in time is which is more huge: taking the equivalent of a lightning bolt, or letting your opponent draw. it will almost never be wrong to cast Truths, and it is considerably lower risk than Undoing. Think about it this way: if casting Truths and taking that 3 damage costs you the game, it is VERY likely that Undoing would also have cost you the game anyway. Except Truths can score you extra damage via prowess.
The only thing I will concede is of course, 7>>>>3, because math.
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Second, it is not symmetrical when all your spells cost one and two and your opponents' cost more than that. They have basically that one turn to remove the threats that we played or next turn we just go off. The only real relevant card that they can draw is lightning bolt or path because it is the only way to keep tempo.
Third, 3 cards is enough to kill someone with a 1/2 prowess and a 1/3 prowess? I strongly disagree with you. I'd rather be going +5 cards on my opponent than +2, but that's just me.
Fourth, you're gonna have to probably shock yourself.
Second, it is not symmetrical when all your spells cost one and two and your opponents' cost more than that. They have basically that one turn to remove the threats that we played or next turn we just go off. The only real relevant card that they can draw is lightning bolt or path because it is the only way to keep tempo.
Third, 3 cards is enough to kill someone with a 1/2 prowess and a 1/3 prowess? I strongly disagree with you. I'd rather be going +5 cards on my opponent than +2, but that's just me.
Fourth, you're gonna have to probably shock yourself.
Second point, whether or not the opponent has a higher curve does affect the effect to which they can leverage off your Undoing, but it does not kill the Symmetry. As a matter of fact, Undoing does 2 things: Refills their hand and pass the turn to them. You seem enthusiastic about how higher curve opponents will be hard-pressed to take advantage of the cards. Here's a thought: twin is gone, and the meta is Burn, Infect, U Affinity w/ Thoughtcasts and Master of Etherium, Eldrazi, Tron. And you're refilling these hands and passing the turn. I rest my case.
Third point, I'll reiterate; if the prowess from Truths and your 3 new cards don't win you the game, you were going to die by casting that Undoing and handing over the turn. Let's review that +5 again: you draw from 2 to 7, but you have to do it POST combat (no prowess off the 3 mana sorcery for you), and now your opponent has a full grip and full turn to run wild. Again, Undoing is stupid, stupid move against Burn, Infect, Affinity, and these guys are rising in number thanks to the linear meta.
Whether or not Undoing is good has been discussed to death, and the discussions rarely seem to go anywhere. I've written several articles on the subject (linked in the primer) if you want some reasonable arguments in favor of the card. If you're a nonbeliever, this thread isn't for you; it's for people who already know its strength to discuss optimal builds of iGrow. You should check out the UR Delver thread!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What am I doing in this thread? My list doesn't run counter spells, or scours. It doesn't try to cast Gurmag anglers or Tasigurs.
It has a game plan a lot closer to this. If i posted my list over there, I'd be hearing the same thing: "get lost".
So I'm here, with a card that I feel can reasonably be substituted for Undoing. Yes, I am acutely aware the card was chosen as part of the name, and that reloading the hand is what makes it so potent.
But let me take you a few posts back where the very author of this thread said:
It's really good in a field of higher-curve midrange decks, and Modern has been really aggro-heavy lately. That's why this thread has been mostly inactive. Stormchaser Mage might bring this deck back, though. I think he's better than Goyf here.
So yes, Stormchaser Mage. It doesn't "solve" the problem of Undoing reloading your opponent's hand, so...*TADAH* i present a new card. I'm not trying to invade anyone's territory or rock anyone's boat, but there it is. The meta is aggressive = Undoing becomes less good = explore alternatives.
I think I'm being reasonable. You could very well take your usual list and substitute Truths with a black splash. 3 cards for 3 damage instead of a mutual full grip and ending your turn immediately.
I *was* kind of baited into attacking Undoing, making myself look like an "unbeliever" when I should have focused on selling Truths, but aw well. My own fault for falling into that trap. Anyhow, I've said what I want about Truths. To explore it or not is your own prerogative. No harm in doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.... right?
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What am I doing in this thread? My list doesn't run counter spells, or scours. It doesn't try to cast Gurmag anglers or Tasigurs.
It has a game plan a lot closer to this. If i posted my list over there, I'd be hearing the same thing: "get lost".
So I'm here, with a card that I feel can reasonably be substituted for Undoing. Yes, I am acutely aware the card was chosen as part of the name, and that reloading the hand is what makes it so potent.
But let me take you a few posts back where the very author of this thread said:
It's really good in a field of higher-curve midrange decks, and Modern has been really aggro-heavy lately. That's why this thread has been mostly inactive. Stormchaser Mage might bring this deck back, though. I think he's better than Goyf here.
So yes, Stormchaser Mage. It doesn't "solve" the problem of Undoing reloading your opponent's hand, so...*TADAH* i present a new card. I'm not trying to invade anyone's territory or rock anyone's boat, but there it is. The meta is aggressive = Undoing becomes less good = explore alternatives.
I think I'm being reasonable. You could very well take your usual list and substitute Truths with a black splash. 3 cards for 3 damage instead of a mutual full grip and ending your turn immediately.
I *was* kind of baited into attacking Undoing, making myself look like an "unbeliever" when I should have focused on selling Truths, but aw well. My own fault for falling into that trap. Anyhow, I've said what I want about Truths. To explore it or not is your own prerogative. No harm in doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.... right?
Stormchaser does "solve" this problem, since he gives you a critical mass of now 8 threats (4 Stormchaser, 4 Swiftspear) that end the game with great frequency the turn after you Undo.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What am I doing in this thread? My list doesn't run counter spells, or scours. It doesn't try to cast Gurmag anglers or Tasigurs.
It has a game plan a lot closer to this. If i posted my list over there, I'd be hearing the same thing: "get lost".
So I'm here, with a card that I feel can reasonably be substituted for Undoing. Yes, I am acutely aware the card was chosen as part of the name, and that reloading the hand is what makes it so potent.
But let me take you a few posts back where the very author of this thread said:
It's really good in a field of higher-curve midrange decks, and Modern has been really aggro-heavy lately. That's why this thread has been mostly inactive. Stormchaser Mage might bring this deck back, though. I think he's better than Goyf here.
So yes, Stormchaser Mage. It doesn't "solve" the problem of Undoing reloading your opponent's hand, so...*TADAH* i present a new card. I'm not trying to invade anyone's territory or rock anyone's boat, but there it is. The meta is aggressive = Undoing becomes less good = explore alternatives.
I think I'm being reasonable. You could very well take your usual list and substitute Truths with a black splash. 3 cards for 3 damage instead of a mutual full grip and ending your turn immediately.
I *was* kind of baited into attacking Undoing, making myself look like an "unbeliever" when I should have focused on selling Truths, but aw well. My own fault for falling into that trap. Anyhow, I've said what I want about Truths. To explore it or not is your own prerogative. No harm in doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.... right?
Stormchaser does "solve" this problem, since he gives you a critical mass of now 8 threats (4 Stormchaser, 4 Swiftspear) that end the game with great frequency the turn after you Undo.
The problem I was referring to that it doesn't solve is not being unable to kill the turn afterward.
The problem is reloading the opponent's hand. Do you even get the turn afterward if the opponent is burn, infect or affinity? They're being reloaded on their turn 2 or 3, both of which are pretty unattractive prospects.
I will not question for a second the math of 7>3, and I also recognize storm chaser is a great upgrade for tempo delver. The problem I am addressing however is the one above.
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What am I doing in this thread? My list doesn't run counter spells, or scours. It doesn't try to cast Gurmag anglers or Tasigurs.
It has a game plan a lot closer to this. If i posted my list over there, I'd be hearing the same thing: "get lost".
So I'm here, with a card that I feel can reasonably be substituted for Undoing. Yes, I am acutely aware the card was chosen as part of the name, and that reloading the hand is what makes it so potent.
But let me take you a few posts back where the very author of this thread said:
It's really good in a field of higher-curve midrange decks, and Modern has been really aggro-heavy lately. That's why this thread has been mostly inactive. Stormchaser Mage might bring this deck back, though. I think he's better than Goyf here.
So yes, Stormchaser Mage. It doesn't "solve" the problem of Undoing reloading your opponent's hand, so...*TADAH* i present a new card. I'm not trying to invade anyone's territory or rock anyone's boat, but there it is. The meta is aggressive = Undoing becomes less good = explore alternatives.
I think I'm being reasonable. You could very well take your usual list and substitute Truths with a black splash. 3 cards for 3 damage instead of a mutual full grip and ending your turn immediately.
I *was* kind of baited into attacking Undoing, making myself look like an "unbeliever" when I should have focused on selling Truths, but aw well. My own fault for falling into that trap. Anyhow, I've said what I want about Truths. To explore it or not is your own prerogative. No harm in doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.... right?
Stormchaser does "solve" this problem, since he gives you a critical mass of now 8 threats (4 Stormchaser, 4 Swiftspear) that end the game with great frequency the turn after you Undo.
The problem I was referring to that it doesn't solve is not being unable to kill the turn afterward.
The problem is reloading the opponent's hand. Do you even get the turn afterward if the opponent is burn, infect or affinity? They're being reloaded on their turn 2 or 3, both of which are pretty unattractive prospects.
I will not question for a second the math of 7>3, and I also recognize storm chaser is a great upgrade for tempo delver. The problem I am addressing however is the one above.
You board Undoing out against those decks and don't cast it in Game 1. I thought you were referring only to actual situations. Of course you don't cast Undoing against Burn... ?!?!
The decks you keep Undoing against (most of them) can't kill you the turn after you give them 7 cards. But with Stormchaser, we can kill them pretty frequently. So yeah, it does address the "drawback" of giving 7 cards to our opponent, since it allows us to kill them before they can use those cards. Does that make sense?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What am I doing in this thread? My list doesn't run counter spells, or scours. It doesn't try to cast Gurmag anglers or Tasigurs.
It has a game plan a lot closer to this. If i posted my list over there, I'd be hearing the same thing: "get lost".
So I'm here, with a card that I feel can reasonably be substituted for Undoing. Yes, I am acutely aware the card was chosen as part of the name, and that reloading the hand is what makes it so potent.
But let me take you a few posts back where the very author of this thread said:
It's really good in a field of higher-curve midrange decks, and Modern has been really aggro-heavy lately. That's why this thread has been mostly inactive. Stormchaser Mage might bring this deck back, though. I think he's better than Goyf here.
So yes, Stormchaser Mage. It doesn't "solve" the problem of Undoing reloading your opponent's hand, so...*TADAH* i present a new card. I'm not trying to invade anyone's territory or rock anyone's boat, but there it is. The meta is aggressive = Undoing becomes less good = explore alternatives.
I think I'm being reasonable. You could very well take your usual list and substitute Truths with a black splash. 3 cards for 3 damage instead of a mutual full grip and ending your turn immediately.
I *was* kind of baited into attacking Undoing, making myself look like an "unbeliever" when I should have focused on selling Truths, but aw well. My own fault for falling into that trap. Anyhow, I've said what I want about Truths. To explore it or not is your own prerogative. No harm in doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.... right?
Stormchaser does "solve" this problem, since he gives you a critical mass of now 8 threats (4 Stormchaser, 4 Swiftspear) that end the game with great frequency the turn after you Undo.
The problem I was referring to that it doesn't solve is not being unable to kill the turn afterward.
The problem is reloading the opponent's hand. Do you even get the turn afterward if the opponent is burn, infect or affinity? They're being reloaded on their turn 2 or 3, both of which are pretty unattractive prospects.
I will not question for a second the math of 7>3, and I also recognize storm chaser is a great upgrade for tempo delver. The problem I am addressing however is the one above.
You board Undoing out against those decks and don't cast it in Game 1. I thought you were referring only to actual situations. Of course you don't cast Undoing against Burn... ?!?!
The decks you keep Undoing against (most of them) can't kill you the turn after you give them 7 cards. But with Stormchaser, we can kill them pretty frequently. So yeah, it does address the "drawback" of giving 7 cards to our opponent, since it allows us to kill them before they can use those cards. Does that make sense?
So essentially, you're saying Undoing is a dead card if you see a T1 guide, glistner elf or signal pest. And you don't see a problem with this? I just named what feels like half the darn meta now, the other half being Tron and Eldrazi.
Of course I am referring to actual situations. Why would you think I wasn't? I didn't come waltzing in here with a substitute proposal without first playing the deck. "You don't cast Undoing against Burn....?!" really means now you're down a card, and theirs are much more efficient killers. You're basically DEAD. Storm Chaser swings for 1, and they have reach and power 2 on average. If we pigeonhole for profit, you'll notice you need to grind out an advantage to win as the control deck - Truths is the best way to do this against the 3 beatdowns I just mentioned.
Tempel's suggestion of putting em in the sideboard is good, although I suppose it boils down to a meta call. Given the upside-down bellcurve meta now of either super-fast aggro or late game domination, I'd probably go with Truths.
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Anyone else having problems against the Eldrazi decks? They empty their hand faster and dropping 2 mimics is just backbreaking if they can't be dealt with asap.
Are there any sideboard cards which may help? I already included more Flame Slash since those help dealing with Thought Knot.
EVERYONE is having problems with Eldrazi. I stopped playing (or rather, stopped trying to win with) non-eldrazi decks. I crushed BLUE MOON and LANTERN CONTROL with my Eldrazi deck (apparently my LGS has become Zendikar, with everyone out to hate on Drazi). I only lost in the Mirror. Yup, my weakest MU is the mirror, even in a room full of hate against it.
Anyway. To deal with T1 mimics, forked bolt. TKS is a real problem; Flame Slash is an option, Roast is another that can at least hit Smasher although it'll cost you another card.
Good luck.
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I see this thread is kind of dead, but I'm almost dune getting the UR igrow deck together in paper and I'm in love with it. I made the changes of taking out abbot because I can't currently afford it and because in testing its been more bad than good for me. I switched it with stormchaser mage and have had good results. also I'd like to point out that the spoiled card thing in the ice from shadows of innistrad looks really good for this deck in my opinion. What do yall think of stormchaser and the thing in the ice?
I see this thread is kind of dead, but I'm almost dune getting the UR igrow deck together in paper and I'm in love with it. I made the changes of taking out abbot because I can't currently afford it and because in testing its been more bad than good for me. I switched it with stormchaser mage and have had good results. also I'd like to point out that the spoiled card thing in the ice from shadows of innistrad looks really good for this deck in my opinion. What do yall think of stormchaser and the thing in the ice?
I tested it for a few hours this afternoon and it does not work in this deck. We want to maximize the ability to goldfish turn four kills against nonresponsive opponents here, and generally aim to win on turn five while casting Snags/Shoals/Bolts in Game 1. Thing doesn't help this plan and actually gums up our hand if we draw it at any time after turn two. I'm also not sure it's any faster than a Pyromancer, but it's hard to tell what will be played after April in Modern. If Path and Dismember still see a lot of play, Thing will be complete garbage in this deck. If Bolt and maybe Gut Shot show up instead, it could maybe merit more testing. I think the best deck for Thing, though, is a highly reactive tempo that doesn't tap out on its own turn, not iGrow.
For those curious, I'm playing the 58-card deck core right now (Stormchasers over Goyfs; no green) with two Lootings in the flex spots. My sideboard:
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
got to agree with jordan on this one; apart from having plenty of instants and sorcs, TITI just doesn't gel with the other guys. He bounces them when he flips which is annoying, and you want to flip him on the opponent's turn, typically. He's very much a control deck's wincon, not a tempo/aggro card.
@op
does your core include any number of twisted images? they're super sick with stormchaser!
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got to agree with jordan on this one; apart from having plenty of instants and sorcs, TITI just doesn't gel with the other guys. He bounces them when he flips which is annoying, and you want to flip him on the opponent's turn, typically. He's very much a control deck's wincon, not a tempo/aggro card.
@op
does your core include any number of twisted images? they're super sick with stormchaser!
No. We absolutely need to hit the right gas with this deck, so if we're running cantrips in flex spots they should be Sleights of Lootings IMO, not cards that don't dig. Core is in the primer.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Explore Painful Truths in place of Undoing in this linear meta. You lose 3 life and don't refill as much, but 3 is plenty in modern. And hey, u get to fuel prowess.
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
First, I think u meant to put 7>>>>>3 and not the other way around.
Second, you're completely ignoring the downsides of drawing that 7: that its symmetrical, that it ends your turn meaning you can't fuel prowess, and half your creatures are prowess.
Third, 3 cards are plenty in modern, I'm sticking to my word and not the one you're trying to put in my mouth. Who said "enough"? We can never draw enough cards in MTG. But if you can't end the game a turn or 2 after you resolve truths, you were not going to win even with Undoing. The argument missing a logical basis is yours.
Fourth, where are you taking 5 damage? Read the card. The most damage you can take from Truths, unless you cast it via Fist of Suns, is 3.
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Yea, that would indeed be an eye-opener. And then if they go on to win after losing 5 life in addition to all thet fetch/shocking, that would REALLY be something.
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Well, the question at any point in time is which is more huge: taking the equivalent of a lightning bolt, or letting your opponent draw. it will almost never be wrong to cast Truths, and it is considerably lower risk than Undoing. Think about it this way: if casting Truths and taking that 3 damage costs you the game, it is VERY likely that Undoing would also have cost you the game anyway. Except Truths can score you extra damage via prowess.
The only thing I will concede is of course, 7>>>>3, because math.
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Second, it is not symmetrical when all your spells cost one and two and your opponents' cost more than that. They have basically that one turn to remove the threats that we played or next turn we just go off. The only real relevant card that they can draw is lightning bolt or path because it is the only way to keep tempo.
Third, 3 cards is enough to kill someone with a 1/2 prowess and a 1/3 prowess? I strongly disagree with you. I'd rather be going +5 cards on my opponent than +2, but that's just me.
Fourth, you're gonna have to probably shock yourself.
Second point, whether or not the opponent has a higher curve does affect the effect to which they can leverage off your Undoing, but it does not kill the Symmetry. As a matter of fact, Undoing does 2 things: Refills their hand and pass the turn to them. You seem enthusiastic about how higher curve opponents will be hard-pressed to take advantage of the cards. Here's a thought: twin is gone, and the meta is Burn, Infect, U Affinity w/ Thoughtcasts and Master of Etherium, Eldrazi, Tron. And you're refilling these hands and passing the turn. I rest my case.
Third point, I'll reiterate; if the prowess from Truths and your 3 new cards don't win you the game, you were going to die by casting that Undoing and handing over the turn. Let's review that +5 again: you draw from 2 to 7, but you have to do it POST combat (no prowess off the 3 mana sorcery for you), and now your opponent has a full grip and full turn to run wild. Again, Undoing is stupid, stupid move against Burn, Infect, Affinity, and these guys are rising in number thanks to the linear meta.
Fourth point, black can be gotten off Blackcleave Cliffs, Darkslick Shores, fetching a Smoldering Marsh or Sunken Hollow after going Island/mountain. I did this frequently with Grixis Delver for a much better chance against Burn.
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
It has a game plan a lot closer to this. If i posted my list over there, I'd be hearing the same thing: "get lost".
So I'm here, with a card that I feel can reasonably be substituted for Undoing. Yes, I am acutely aware the card was chosen as part of the name, and that reloading the hand is what makes it so potent.
But let me take you a few posts back where the very author of this thread said:
So yes, Stormchaser Mage. It doesn't "solve" the problem of Undoing reloading your opponent's hand, so...*TADAH* i present a new card. I'm not trying to invade anyone's territory or rock anyone's boat, but there it is. The meta is aggressive = Undoing becomes less good = explore alternatives.
I think I'm being reasonable. You could very well take your usual list and substitute Truths with a black splash. 3 cards for 3 damage instead of a mutual full grip and ending your turn immediately.
I *was* kind of baited into attacking Undoing, making myself look like an "unbeliever" when I should have focused on selling Truths, but aw well. My own fault for falling into that trap. Anyhow, I've said what I want about Truths. To explore it or not is your own prerogative. No harm in doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.... right?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
The problem I was referring to that it doesn't solve is not being unable to kill the turn afterward.
The problem is reloading the opponent's hand. Do you even get the turn afterward if the opponent is burn, infect or affinity? They're being reloaded on their turn 2 or 3, both of which are pretty unattractive prospects.
I will not question for a second the math of 7>3, and I also recognize storm chaser is a great upgrade for tempo delver. The problem I am addressing however is the one above.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The decks you keep Undoing against (most of them) can't kill you the turn after you give them 7 cards. But with Stormchaser, we can kill them pretty frequently. So yeah, it does address the "drawback" of giving 7 cards to our opponent, since it allows us to kill them before they can use those cards. Does that make sense?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
So essentially, you're saying Undoing is a dead card if you see a T1 guide, glistner elf or signal pest. And you don't see a problem with this? I just named what feels like half the darn meta now, the other half being Tron and Eldrazi.
Of course I am referring to actual situations. Why would you think I wasn't? I didn't come waltzing in here with a substitute proposal without first playing the deck. "You don't cast Undoing against Burn....?!" really means now you're down a card, and theirs are much more efficient killers. You're basically DEAD. Storm Chaser swings for 1, and they have reach and power 2 on average. If we pigeonhole for profit, you'll notice you need to grind out an advantage to win as the control deck - Truths is the best way to do this against the 3 beatdowns I just mentioned.
Tempel's suggestion of putting em in the sideboard is good, although I suppose it boils down to a meta call. Given the upside-down bellcurve meta now of either super-fast aggro or late game domination, I'd probably go with Truths.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
EVERYONE is having problems with Eldrazi. I stopped playing (or rather, stopped trying to win with) non-eldrazi decks. I crushed BLUE MOON and LANTERN CONTROL with my Eldrazi deck (apparently my LGS has become Zendikar, with everyone out to hate on Drazi). I only lost in the Mirror. Yup, my weakest MU is the mirror, even in a room full of hate against it.
Anyway. To deal with T1 mimics, forked bolt. TKS is a real problem; Flame Slash is an option, Roast is another that can at least hit Smasher although it'll cost you another card.
Good luck.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
For those curious, I'm playing the 58-card deck core right now (Stormchasers over Goyfs; no green) with two Lootings in the flex spots. My sideboard:
SB: 1 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 Send to Sleep
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Electrickery
SB: 3 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
Will try to update the primer soon to accommodate Stormchaser.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
@op
does your core include any number of twisted images? they're super sick with stormchaser!
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy