As tempting as Thalia's Lieutenant sounds I think its a trap for all Ally users. Not only does it NOT gain triggers from Akoum battlesinger and Kabira evangel protection, it does not provide any ETB effects at all if we needed life gain from ondu cleric or a pivotal moment if we needed to trigger protection from Kabira evangel. As I explained in my previous post to you, metallic mimic synergizes well with allies as it not only BUFFS incoming allies, it IS an ally.
Like hardened scales, I think Lieutenant is a trap in terms of crafting for allies. The reason I think many people get side tracked/tempted with Thalia's Lt. is because Humans tribal tries to do something similar in regards to counters, but nothing else. Allies is not a one trick pony deck where all we want is +1/1 counters, we want ETB effects. Thats our niche.
100% agree. The triggers are what make the deck work.
Yes. It's definitely been awhile. To be completely honest I have not touched my ally deck since I retired the deck to move on to other decks. The whole irony is there isn't a deck that interest me other than Tron. Now I'm back where I left off.
Regarding burn, Ondu cleric is a double-or-nothing card. If they leave him alone, it will cost them the game. Ondu would be better used in vial builds to flash in. For more aggressive build without vial, lantern scout would be more heavily emphasised.
Other cards to consider:
Kor firewalker
Spellskite
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Dromoka's command
Chalice may hurt your deck. But give it a try with proxy first before investing. It's bonkers now for the price.
The last time I fought burn with success is with vials. After that the only other time I fought what is close to burn is burning zoo. Lost that match.
Traditional burn likely relies on their threats to bring your life down below 5 and finish you off from there. Their reach is there but timing the protection or countermeasures can give a chance to counterswing. Once our creatures are out of bolt range, they will have a tough time to deal with our board.
I agree, I wouldn't run Chalice. Ondu Cleric really hasn't been as good for me as I was hoping. Lantern Scout and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben have been great in the matchup. I feel like it's important to hold Lantern Scouts for at least 4 or so points of life gained, there's no value in just throwing it out there. They generally have to answer our creatures, which runs them low on actual damage to go for our face with. Their own creatures are very easily outclassed if they decide not to remove our creatures. Be aggressive, the matchup is still a race imo. If you start fearing to die and keep back blockers too soon, you're playing around hands with so much burn that they'll be able to remove your creatures or your life points either way. Often you just have to hope they don't have it all :/
So guys, I had an epiphany. What if we played our Allies deck kind of like a pseudo Slivers deck? What do you guys think of the addition of cards like Cryptolith Rite and Brave the Sands? They literally have the same cmc as their sliver counter parts and do the same exact thing as them too! i.e. vigilance and mana fixing. I know brave the sands is a little 'ehh' in terms of adding into the deck; however I feel like with Cryptolith, we can possibly obtain the same amount of 'exploding' effect as slivers does? Also if we add in Cryptolith Rite, we can possibly dig a little deeper into the more expensive cmc ally tribal cards? i.e. the resolute blademaster? or Kazuul Warlord? or Ondu Champion?
OR am I just crazy and we should just depend on our Harabaz druid ally? Who gives X mana for how many allies we have on the field?
Ive played both Slivers and Allies and the main difference between them is that Slivers has the tools to go more toolbox style combined with the raw power and aggresiveness of their lords. Allies lack this and I find it hard to justify adding non-allies and raise the curve above 3CC. Atm the only direction we can go with allies, and thats imo, would be Boros Allies with added lightning bolts, boros charms etc and possibly drop co co alltogether. Also adding black could open up for some intresting routes with say Agadeem Occultist, Bala Ged Thief, Kalastria Healer, Zulaport Cutthroat and possibly combined with Return to the ranks kind of effects. This is just fast theorycrafting and something that would need to be tested thoroughly and quite likely not work very well. A semi control, blackbased Allies kind of deck
I think someone tried Boros ally with some success. Check back the forum's older threads. It's a viable strategy, but I would be concerned with the balance between spells and creatures. That is the same opinion I had back then and now. If you can fix that, it would be fine.
Has anyone tried experimenting with Captain's claws as a 2 of?
I was skeptical at first, but I've been running 2 for over a year now in my coco-vial build. It's nice in some settings to know you'll get everything triggered on the next turn, and it allows for a bit quicker recovery from wipes if you have some extra hasty creatures (I have the 4 Battlesingers + 2 Bushwhackers + 2 Savants currently).
So ever since other's have brought up the inclusion of Harabaz Druid in the deck, I have tried her as a 4 of in my deck, to gain mana tempo kind of like Slivers, and I have to say....its pretty nice. Also with the inclusion of Harabaz, I have decided to add a 1 of Kazuul Warlord, as a sort of lategame mana sink and I have not regretted it once. Not only does he trigger all other ally triggers, he adds +1/1 counters to everyone upon ETB INCLUDING HIMSELF.
In my opinion, if you're the traditional ally that plays WITHOUT harabaz, I would not suggest Kazuul; however if you have harabaz druid in deck I feel like you need Kazuul as a 1 of, or any other of the debatable expensive cmc Allies. Just my 2 cents..
I played allies for about 6 months last year, and I really....REALLY wanted it to work. However, the new allies we got in the BFZ block were so utterly disappointing. I keep going back to the list (partially because kabira evangel is OP), but have a hard time beating combo/abusive matchups like abzan company, tron, eggs, ect.
I have considered kazadul warlord, ondu champion. All give amazing benefits, but neither are hit by CoCo
My current list:
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Harabaz Druid
4 Akoum Battlesinger
2 jwari shapeshifter
4 Kabira Evangel
1 lantern scout
2 firemantle mage
2 mirror entity
2 reckless bushwacker
4 Collected Company
4 Aether Vial
2 Path to Exile
2 domri rade or lead the stampede
19 Lands
Yea, I wish we had a Trample cantrip, I hate how our trample cantrip is a 4cmc ally. I've been trying to find an instant or enchantment that gives our creatures trample for a reasonable cmc, so that even though we get chump blocked we are able to get some damage through
I have tried the following cards: Rancor, ondu Champion, Brave the elements. All either significantly weakened our Coco's which are already vulnerable to frequent misses. Cards I have thought about include arlinn Kord who has two abilities which are great for us unfortunately both of those abilities are on her backside.
I have tried the following cards: Rancor, ondu Champion, Brave the elements. All significantly weakened our Coco's which are already vulnerable to frequent misses. Cards I have thought about include arlinn Kord who has two abilities which are great for us unfortunately both of those abilities are on her backside.
We could take out vial for more threats or interaction but the problem is vial is not only so good on an aggressive route, but it also allows us so much routes of protection using evangelical.
Having too much "air" (4x A.Vial, 4x Harabaz Druid, 2x Jwari Shapeshifter - needs a good copy target, 2x Mirror Entity - needs a board and mana to spare) in the deck and not enough threats hurts the aggro plan.
Four of the cards you're not happy with are in my "Flex Spots" and are in for our local meta right now. The Ondu Cleric used to live in the sideboard, but I needed a few more sideboard spots -- and it does make a lot of life. I was skeptical of the Beastcaller for a long time, but I'm getting happier and it goes nice with Bushwhacker and helps when I'm trying to race. I can understand not liking Captain's Claws, but it helps rebuild sometimes. The question is what do you put in instead? Oran-Rief Survivalist isn't great.
The 2 Ondu, Beastcaller, Envoy, and Bushwhacker used to be 3 Survivalist (making 4 total), 2 Mirror Entity, and some combination of Path/Natural State/Ondu Cleric depending on the recent meta. The Survivalist was always the first thing pulled out for the side board (often for the Ondu Cleric). If something else was going to be added, the last remaining one might be the thing to go. The recent meta hasn't seemed to make the Path and State as useful, and felt a bit faster so that I didn't really have time for the 2 Mirror Entity.
To answer the faster speed I put in the Beastcaller, Envoy, and Bushwhacker together because they seem to play well together. I don't know if I really want more than two of each though because getting multiples seems bad... and they usually aren't individually close to the best choice.
That was the first time I had Envoy in. The deck really tries to get a huge swing on Turn 4, and the Envoy doesn't help a lot of the time. Even on turn one if you have Vial or Freeblade it doesn't hit the board, and it get's less good as the game goes along.
I can see using the Lieutenant in a lot of builds -- but this one really wants things that play well with Akoum Battlesinger and Harabaz Druid. Being castable with Ally Encampment and Cavern set to ally also seem important with my mana base and some of my non-human allies (Shapeshifter, Bushwhacker, Ondu).
Yea, I wish we had a Trample cantrip, I hate how our trample cantrip is a 4cmc ally. I've been trying to find an instant or enchantment that gives our creatures trample for a reasonable cmc, so that even though we get chump blocked we are able to get some damage through
It seems like one danger with this deck is running out of gas. Is there any interest in Lead the Stampede to refuel? I don't think allies generate quite as much mana as elves but it could still be good.
The other one that seems tempting to me is to go five color and run Bala Ged Thief. Maybe as a sideboard card. The nonbo with Coco is a bummer but the ability to get card advantage with every trigger is so sweet.
It seems like one danger with this deck is running out of gas. Is there any interest in Lead the Stampede to refuel? I don't think allies generate quite as much mana as elves but it could still be good.
There have been some games where it randomly stalls because I hit a land pocket or can't get enough creatures out at once to overcome some threat. The advantage Coco has is the way stuff triggers when it comes in (so 2 Akoum's give +4/+0, Ondu for really big life) which feels like it increases the chance of the early turn kill a lot, or makes the super-heroic recovery more likely. Lead the stampede seems nice if we have a vial out, and lets me decide whether I want to cast someone right away or not, and it helps in decks that run cage in the board. On average is it two allies coming in for one more mana, vs. one ally cast to come in and another 1.5 in my hand?
What would you take out for it? (I don't want to decrease the ally count, taking out a coco seems bad. I can see putting it in instead of the Captain's Claws.)
Captain's claws and ally encampment are helpful against the stall assuming I haven't just had all my creatures board wiped away.
Had Return to the Ranks in the board for one game trying it the other day (drawing one more land would have made it useful). Any experience with that?
The other one that seems tempting to me is to go five color and run Bala Ged Thief. Maybe as a sideboard card. The nonbo with Coco is a bummer but the ability to get card advantage with every trigger is so sweet.
I'm not sure I want to tackle the mana-base design for 5-colors
It seems like one danger with this deck is running out of gas. Is there any interest in Lead the Stampede to refuel? I don't think allies generate quite as much mana as elves but it could still be good.
There have been some games where it randomly stalls because I hit a land pocket or can't get enough creatures out at once to overcome some threat. The advantage Coco has is the way stuff triggers when it comes in (so 2 Akoum's give +4/+0, Ondu for really big life) which feels like it increases the chance of the early turn kill a lot, or makes the super-heroic recovery more likely. Lead the stampede seems nice if we have a vial out, and lets me decide whether I want to cast someone right away or not, and it helps in decks that run cage in the board. On average is it two allies coming in for one more mana, vs. one ally cast to come in and another 1.5 in my hand?
What would you take out for it? (I don't want to decrease the ally count, taking out a coco seems bad. I can see putting it in instead of the Captain's Claws.)
I was thinking either Claws or Bushwhacker could go. The Claws seem like they could really snowball if left unchecked but I'd worry that the Death's Shadow decks could keep you off of attackers. This is all just theory crafting for now, though I'm hoping to get the deck together and take it through some leagues in the next week or two. Do you find the Bushwhacker surging out for value very often?
Recently played today at my LGS, and played against affinity. Any suggestions on how to counter it? I've been having trouble with it lately. My sideboard consist of 1 TukTuk scrapper and 2 ancient grudge. Should I be looking for something else?
Qasali Pridemage (Reclamation Sage) and Kataki, War's Wage can be good and both can be hit off CoCo unlike the cards you've mentioned.
You can also pack a copy of Creeping Corrosion, if you bring non-creature spells they should be more impactful than the creature options imho.
Anyone got any thoughts about the new God, Rhonda, and the new Nissa walker? Both seem very interesting for us. Rhonda is hit by CoCo, can boost someone else, and if we on the attack, it shouldn't be hard to get 4power. New Nissa seems very good for us - easy to get creatures onto the battlefield. No way to deal with other creatures though.
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100% agree. The triggers are what make the deck work.
It's been really good. I've only played 2, might try 3. It just works...
I agree, I wouldn't run Chalice. Ondu Cleric really hasn't been as good for me as I was hoping. Lantern Scout and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben have been great in the matchup. I feel like it's important to hold Lantern Scouts for at least 4 or so points of life gained, there's no value in just throwing it out there. They generally have to answer our creatures, which runs them low on actual damage to go for our face with. Their own creatures are very easily outclassed if they decide not to remove our creatures. Be aggressive, the matchup is still a race imo. If you start fearing to die and keep back blockers too soon, you're playing around hands with so much burn that they'll be able to remove your creatures or your life points either way. Often you just have to hope they don't have it all :/
OR am I just crazy and we should just depend on our Harabaz druid ally? Who gives X mana for how many allies we have on the field?
The expensive (4+cmc) Allies (Talus Paladin probably being the best of them) aren't worth playing imho.
Brave the Sands isn't good enough as vigilance isn't that valuable, it also worse than Makindi Patrol which nobody would play anyway.
I think someone tried Boros ally with some success. Check back the forum's older threads. It's a viable strategy, but I would be concerned with the balance between spells and creatures. That is the same opinion I had back then and now. If you can fix that, it would be fine.
RIP: GWU Midrange (2012-2013) | GWR Ally (2014-2016)
Some gameplay with a new Metallic Mimic list.
I still don't like Reckless Bushwhacker here without cheap-free spells to enable it and the non-bo with CoCo and would rather go with Oran-Rief Survivalist.
I'm also not a fan of maindeck: Ondu Cleric, Firemantle Mage and Dromoka's Command and would just go with the 4th Kabira Evangel and 3x Thalia's Lieutenant.
I was skeptical at first, but I've been running 2 for over a year now in my coco-vial build. It's nice in some settings to know you'll get everything triggered on the next turn, and it allows for a bit quicker recovery from wipes if you have some extra hasty creatures (I have the 4 Battlesingers + 2 Bushwhackers + 2 Savants currently).
In my opinion, if you're the traditional ally that plays WITHOUT harabaz, I would not suggest Kazuul; however if you have harabaz druid in deck I feel like you need Kazuul as a 1 of, or any other of the debatable expensive cmc Allies. Just my 2 cents..
I have considered kazadul warlord, ondu champion. All give amazing benefits, but neither are hit by CoCo
My current list:
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Harabaz Druid
4 Akoum Battlesinger
2 jwari shapeshifter
4 Kabira Evangel
1 lantern scout
2 firemantle mage
2 mirror entity
2 reckless bushwacker
4 Collected Company
4 Aether Vial
2 Path to Exile
2 domri rade or lead the stampede
19 Lands
We could take out vial for more threats or interaction but the problem is vial is not only so good on an aggressive route, but it also allows us so much routes of protection using evangelical.
Having too much "air" (4x A.Vial, 4x Harabaz Druid, 2x Jwari Shapeshifter - needs a good copy target, 2x Mirror Entity - needs a board and mana to spare) in the deck and not enough threats hurts the aggro plan.
I'd also play the full 4x PtE.
Btw, a new Allies video - https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/modern-monday-4-color-allies/
I don't like the maindeck: Ondu Cleric, Beastcaller Savant and Captain's Claws though.
(http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34799_Daily-Digest-Little-Creatures-Big-Damage.html - this list seemed better)
The match history and all for that featured deck are over at (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wurg-vial-allies/).
Four of the cards you're not happy with are in my "Flex Spots" and are in for our local meta right now. The Ondu Cleric used to live in the sideboard, but I needed a few more sideboard spots -- and it does make a lot of life. I was skeptical of the Beastcaller for a long time, but I'm getting happier and it goes nice with Bushwhacker and helps when I'm trying to race. I can understand not liking Captain's Claws, but it helps rebuild sometimes. The question is what do you put in instead? Oran-Rief Survivalist isn't great.
Oran-Rief Survivalist and Thalia's Lieutenant (gets much better without the non-human allies which aren't great anyway) and some Metallic Mimics as well.
Also, only 2x Expedition Envoy seems strange as the aggro deck needs its 1-drops to apply pressure from the start.
To answer the faster speed I put in the Beastcaller, Envoy, and Bushwhacker together because they seem to play well together. I don't know if I really want more than two of each though because getting multiples seems bad... and they usually aren't individually close to the best choice.
That was the first time I had Envoy in. The deck really tries to get a huge swing on Turn 4, and the Envoy doesn't help a lot of the time. Even on turn one if you have Vial or Freeblade it doesn't hit the board, and it get's less good as the game goes along.
I can see using the Lieutenant in a lot of builds -- but this one really wants things that play well with Akoum Battlesinger and Harabaz Druid. Being castable with Ally Encampment and Cavern set to ally also seem important with my mana base and some of my non-human allies (Shapeshifter, Bushwhacker, Ondu).
Archetype of Aggression ? Primal Rage ?
I'm not sure why we would need that with Kabira Evangel and Firemantle Mage to get through blockers.
The other one that seems tempting to me is to go five color and run Bala Ged Thief. Maybe as a sideboard card. The nonbo with Coco is a bummer but the ability to get card advantage with every trigger is so sweet.
There have been some games where it randomly stalls because I hit a land pocket or can't get enough creatures out at once to overcome some threat. The advantage Coco has is the way stuff triggers when it comes in (so 2 Akoum's give +4/+0, Ondu for really big life) which feels like it increases the chance of the early turn kill a lot, or makes the super-heroic recovery more likely. Lead the stampede seems nice if we have a vial out, and lets me decide whether I want to cast someone right away or not, and it helps in decks that run cage in the board. On average is it two allies coming in for one more mana, vs. one ally cast to come in and another 1.5 in my hand?
What would you take out for it? (I don't want to decrease the ally count, taking out a coco seems bad. I can see putting it in instead of the Captain's Claws.)
Captain's claws and ally encampment are helpful against the stall assuming I haven't just had all my creatures board wiped away.
Had Return to the Ranks in the board for one game trying it the other day (drawing one more land would have made it useful). Any experience with that?
I'm not sure I want to tackle the mana-base design for 5-colors
You can also pack a copy of Creeping Corrosion, if you bring non-creature spells they should be more impactful than the creature options imho.